Red Deer:

Class Etiquette =

1) I hold the right of exclusion (unless Annie chooses another ward). If I exclude, please cease talking to and about the excludee

Nestor:

agreed

Red Deer:

2) Please keep MMs, BBs & MPs in IM during class

slinky:

agreed

ZenMastr:

agreed

LadyRa:

agreed

britemoon:

agreed

Ocean'sEdge:

agreed

Autumn:

agreed

IndigoFire:

agreed

Mr Charles:

ok

Freinsch:

Roger

Ankh:

agreed

KnightHawk:

agreed

Emmereaude:

What are we agreeing to/

Red Deer:

With that, Annie will lead us "In Search of the Goddess"!

Azerothh:

agreed

Red Deer:

Class etiquette, Emm

Emmereaude:

Well - let's go.

ANNWYN:

First, realize I am typing this and am not responsible for typos...

Emmereaude:

I'm in agreement.

Red Deer:

Oh, would someone else please LOG as a backup?

ANNWYN:

and I had Nestor check all of my spelling

IndigoFire:

i will try

Emmereaude:

We are in trouble now.

Red Deer:

lol

Sylverhare:

LOL

ANNWYN:

In beginning the outline for this class, I had a very different topic in mind

ZenMastr:

:)

Nestor:

LOL

Autumn:

lol

ANNWYN:

I had wanted to show the change that occurred when there was a loss of Matrilineal culture and the transition to a Patriarchal focus. As I began this I started delving again into the studies I had done on the history of the Godess and realized that the topic is much too vast --even narrowing it to the Matri vs Patri. To simply present that idea without laying some ground work. For the exploration and validation of the Godess in the history of mankind.

Morrigan:

so is this the ground work then?

ANNWYN:

The necessity of her presence in our lives and our own religion

ANNWYN:

yes.. Morrigan

slinky:

little statues with big breast

IndigoFire:

shhh

slinky:

we all know that

ANNWYN:

and the integral part the Godess plays in the very nature of our need for understanding our place in the universe. My next consideration was the level of study for those attending. To some the material I impart today will overlap that which you already know.

IndigoFire:

beginner here

ANNWYN:

To some perhaps it will engage you to look at this subject more closely. Regardless of the tradition you embrace, or if your approach is Pagan and not strictly Wiccan, you know and are aware how the Godess touches your life. I will present the Godess over the next few months and include the Patriarchal revolution and the effects of the loss of the Godess to our society in future classes. In brief, today's class is really an overview of the material I will cover in the future. At the end of class I would like your input to what you want from me. Although future classes will be more interactive, I ask that today you hold questions until I am finished. Is that OK?

Arcadea:

ok

Ocean'sEdge:

fine

IndigoFire:

yes

Red Deer:

yes Annie

Emmereaude:

sure.

Mr Charles:

yes

Sylverhare:

ok

ZenMastr:

yep

DeathDesire:

{nods}

Pixelite:

Sure Annwyn...

Autumn:

o k

weaver:

ok

Nestor:

sure

britemoon:

yes

Azerothh:

y

Morrigan:

ok with me...sounds really interesting...can't wait

Ankh:

k

LadyRa:

Great

ANNWYN:

for reference I will use man, he him to represent all humanity, and I will use the spelling Godess, rather than Goddess, mainly because I hate typing the other D.

Ocean'sEdge:

hehe

ZenMastr:

hehe

IndigoFire:

hehe

weaver:

lol

Autumn:

lol

Ankh:

hehe

Emmereaude:

:}

ANNWYN:

and also because the "goddess" spelling seems to take a mythological position

Morrigan:

:::chuckling:::

ANNWYN:

or something less than "god" something diminutive, like God(ette) in my mind. So I prefer Godess. Nearly all peoples of the world have at some point in their history worshipped Deity as Godess, and for many Godess was the supreme deity.

Red Deer:

annie...both d's?

Morrigan:

LOL

ZenMastr:

:)

IndigoFire:

heh:)

ANNWYN:

As we cannot surely know, when man first became religious, when he first began to question his place...

ANNWYN:

was a typo Morrigan

Morrigan:

i know...just ribbing ya

ANNWYN:

We must rely on his first attempts to express that experience... which is in his art. We see Godess as early as 25,000 BCE in a simple fertility type expression - Icons that embodied the source of life...Woman...Mother. Perhaps the oldest was found in Austria, "the Earth Mother of Willendorf", ca. 25,000 to 30,000 BCE. This figure was carved from limestone, is naked with pronounced fleshiness, having the typical pendulous breast... Slinky... protruding abdomen, massive hips, and sharply defined pubic triangle. Clearly this figure is feminine, most likely pregnant, and being still marked with red ochre, an Earth pigment of the color of "life giving blood", representative of the life force

if I get too fast let me know.

At this point in history the understanding of the male's part in reproduction was not understood... So Woman's ability to issue forth life would have been seen as sacred and wonderful. This Godess is personal, sensual, easily fitting into one's hand as did many of the carved figurines that have been unearthed.

Also, many early figures were found in the home... not relegated to temple. They were part of everyday living. A mindfulness. Everyday living was an expression of the divine

Autumn:

like as in Christianity today?

ZenMastr:

no

ANNWYN:

Although later great temples were constructed for her worship (No autumn... will discuss it later) caves, natural sites were prominent. Near water... under a grove of trees... certain rock formations. We see Godess as "the Earth Mother of Laussel" (France) ca. 20,000 to 18,000 BCE, also in limestone, but carved into the natural contours of a rockface overhanging the entrance to an ICE AGE sanctuary. In her upraised hand she holds the bison horn, symbol of the crescent moon. It is marked with thirteen notches, noting the lunar months. A first calendar. We see Great Godess worship having a hey day from about 7000BCE to 500BCE. Innana, Ishtar/Astarte, Isis,...Hera.. etc.

Sandwiched in this period is the introduction of Abraham - the first great prophet of god - no earlier than 1800 BCE and possibly no later than 1550 BCE. This is also about the birthdate of Monotheism.

Mr Charles:

is there a reason for the switch

ANNWYN:

For many millennia Godess and God existed side by side. Godess did not simply ride into the sunset but rather was a victim of a concerted effort to annihilate her existence. Despite this effort the last Godess temples were not closed until the fifth century CE in Gaul.

Autumn:

CE?

ANNWYN:

Deut. 12:2,3 reads

Morrigan:

common era?

Autumn:

oh

IndigoFire:

huh

ANNWYN:

You must completely destroy all the places where the nations you dispossess have served their gods. On high mountains, on hills, under any spreading tree

MoonDragon:

Wow, this area's REALLY full

Morrigan:

as a replacement for before Christ

ANNWYN:

I am using Common era.. rather than BC...and AD. By using those terms we would be accepting Christ as determiner of our history

Mr Charles:

why this rise against the Goddess

ANNWYN:

you must tear down their alters, smash their pillars, cut down their sacred poles, set fire to the carved images of their Gods (I will approach that, Mr. Charles, later) and wipe their name from this place. This is only one of many passages that refer to the attack upon Godess worship. In a later class we will look at this more closely and other events responsible for the loss of Godess including simply ignorance, vandalism, and erosion.

The point I would like made here

PAniteowl:

The nature of humanity is repetitive in it's fickleness with regards to its Gods

ANNWYN:

is the attitude of the Judeo/Christian community throughout their history

PAniteowl:

{sorry}

ANNWYN:

That we cannot discount politics and power as motivators and distorters of historical evidence in our search for the Godess later. Also, we will see how the passage of property ownership and economics were driving factors for them and their predecessors. This hatred and fervor

Emmereaude:

This is greed at its worst.

ANNWYN:

this need to destroy rather than to respect and understand is apparent even in more recent history those of us looking for Celtic/Druid roots consider St. Patrick burning every item related to these religions to insure / secure a Christian hold in Ireland. We see it when the Priests burned the Mayan texts to destroy all that was "heathen". And we suffer the loss not possibly of Godess there but of great historical, mathematical, and astronomical information. Something destroyed cannot answer, cannot question, believe as I believe or you are HISTORY...

Or in the case of the Godess, Never existed.

Were the Witch Trials really an assault on Stan?

IndigoFire:

nope

Red Deer:

Stan? {g}

ANNWYN:

Some of the sources I have pulled from have suggested that the dates I am using may actually be much earlier

Morrigan:

no...greed for one

ANNWYN:

satatan

ANNWYN:

Stan is his nickname

Red Deer:

LOL!

ZenMastr:

uh oh

SongSpring:

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IndigoFire:

{g}

SongSpring:

Um, class still going?

Morrigan:

Stan...I love that

ANNWYN:

The largest body of Godess research that we are given used the less sophisticated means of carbon dating

KnightHawk:

I feel that the hunts were out of fear of the unknown.

ANNWYN:

Not Dating Stan Song

DeathDesire:

{G}

SongSpring:

LOL

Ankh:

hehe

Autumn:

lol

IndigoFire:

{g?}

DeathDesire:

grin

ANNWYN:

The good news being, that even with this method a tremendous scope of time that he Godess was a central part of man's religion is revealed

Emmereaude:

No Ann - you are right - it was all about greed and the drive for power.

ANNWYN:

and if we consider the possibilities of new means of testing we can argue and even longer history

IndigoFire:

and to get rid of females i have researched this

Autumn:

get rid of us??

ZenMastr:

shhh

ANNWYN:

Keeping in mind we are talking of "Godess worship"...not Wicca per se and that the Godess was worshipped for thousands of years in as many different ways as we are pagan.

slinky:

The slink's springs are about to burst...

ANNWYN:

Some in our society see Godess worship only as something Prehistoric if ever at all. But evidence does show that when writing first appeared in Sumer about 3200 BCE, the Godess was still alive and well, much revered and her existence overlapping with other cultures. Expressed in drama, in ritual, in written tablets and papyri. In religions scriptures that are referred to as epic legends.

Agriculture, other than for person use, probably developed near centers of Godess worship. Now she was not only life bringer but LIFE sustainer. Also we find many stories attributing skills that enhanced human life - weaving, pottery, writing, etc - to Godess

Many Godesses bearing these blessings were later changed to gods by literary sex change sometimes gradually, sometimes simply denied or sometimes vilified. We find evidence of the Godess all over the world and as a practiced religion in many countries even today. It is easily recognized still in many African tribes, the Australian Aborigines, and in our own Native American cultures.

The word Mama is not an accident but has some similar use in many cultures to represent not only the Mother from which we individually were born, but the mother from which all mankind was born and in Mother Earth... our home.

The DNA mitochondrial research of biochemist Allan C. Wilson has extrapolated that all human ancestral lines can be traced back to one mother, probably living in Africa over 200,000 years ago. So at very least we can prove biologically that we all had the same MAMA.

As Wiccans

ZenMastr:

must be the same dad too?

ANNWYN:

we understand the Godess is not only Mother but we revere her also as Maiden and Crone. With these added dimensions our search for the Godess gives us almost unlimited access to her as a recognizable part of our heritage. This imagery - Mother, Maiden, Crone - is not new. As the Godess : Moon connection has long been recognized. The phases of the moon easily correlating to the menstrual cycle and the ebb and flow of life. Godess is found in Columbia as Huitaca, a Moon Godess who reminds us to laugh. She is found in Japan as Bensaiten, Godesss of love, eloquence and music, who married a Dragon to stop him from eating children. In Norse? Teutonic history as Hella/Holla overseeing the Land of the Dead with imagery also pertaining to Hecate who possibly has an Anatolian along with Greek representation. In Nigeria as ALA both provider of life and the Mother who receives in Death. Womb....Tomb. And in Borneo as Fire Woman, who brought fire to her tribe. One of the major problems we face in recovering information about Godess worship

SongSpring:

There is a book called "Maiden, Mother, Crone" that shows the myths and stories both before and after the men started pushing themselves into the picture.. very good book!!!

ANNWYN:

is the fact that a large body of that information was processed by "men" who embraced (a minute Song.. I'll get there) GOD... Maleness as supreme. A point I would like to clarify up front is that this is not about male bashing... but may be viewed as Female affirming. Although my personal belief tends towards viewing the divine as feminine. I am not here to convert you to that thought. And Wiccan.

Red Deer:

thanks! {g}

ANNWYN:

I do worship the Triple Godess and Dual God.

PAniteowl:

{G}

ANNWYN:

(Oh shut up deer) Godess is the heritage of both men and woman

Red Deer:

(do I need a slap?)

ANNWYN:

What I see as imperative (besides slapping Deer)

Morrigan:

{yes}

IndigoFire:

spanking

ANNWYN:

Is a shift in our consciousness

Red Deer:

{VBEG}

ANNWYN:

We

PAniteowl:

{slap}

ANNWYN:

must leave Adam and Eve behind

Pixelite:

Naw, deer would like it too much...

ANNWYN:

Mostly unfortunately our upbringings are male oriented. For the most part we have come through school and church

Caireen:

Goddess worship does not exclude male entities or men, it encompasses all

ANNWYN:

systems that denied the existence of the Godess

SongSpring:

The suppression of the Goddess has hurt the men as well... "Real men don't cry" "Real men can't be sensative" etc... they close themselves to the Goddess aspects within themselves!!

ANNWYN:

other than as fairytale and folklore and accomplishments of civilization belonged to man. For most of us Godess was mitigated in religion to the point, to the extreme point, that the female

slinky:

are you prepared to say that you believe a real goddess exists outside of our consciousness?

ANNWYN:

and her femaleness were things to be hated and mistrusted, something to serve man... something at every turn prepared to seduce man from his relationship with god

Red Deer:

I would, slink

SongSpring:

aka Eve and the temptation... her fault!

ANNWYN:

God being equated with light goodness knowledge and truth therefore what was NOT

SongSpring:

aka Adam falling to the evil temptation of the woman.... not his fault.

slinky:

those are all in the human mind

Autumn:

YES SLINK I WOULD AS WELL

ANNWYN:

male/GOD was not these things and not worthy of study. This attitude was prevalent in early research mostly by men,

slinky:

I can appreciate that willingness to venture out beyond the human mind

ANNWYN:

but even by some women having been raised within this belief system. Material which provided us with evidence of the Godess in man's historical evolution was not taken seriously and only given slight reference

SongSpring:

Yeah, my mother is one of them.. June Cleaver type philosophy.. etc.

slinky:

material made by human hands....

ANNWYN:

and in some cases was actually shelved hidden in vaults that required proof of educational ID to explore (almost there folks...promise)

MoonDragon:

or Goddess worship was seen as something only 'primitive' peoples would believe in..

ANNWYN:

Those wishing to pursue this line of study often found themselves cut off from the very materials they needed to prove Godess. Because of the nature oriented foundation of Godess worship some of the discoveries were received with less than an open mind. They were considered vulgar or primitive although the cultures that produced them were advanced in areas of commerce and social organization. The expressive use of breasts and vulva in the artwork belonging to Godess worship was even considered by some as only as early version of Playboy - porno - the oldest Barbie Doll extant. Thus discounted for many years

We will explore the symbols of the Godess the triangle: the fish, bird, hand, etc and her sacred landscapes and objects in another class. Most Historians have placed the Godesss strictly as Myth even when a particular Godess such as Isis or Innana has shown longevity and far reaching influence never is she given the same footing as the big three. She has however found her place there as Mary in xianity, as Shekinah in Judaism, as Fatima in Islam. Historically speaking we find Godess worship usually reduced to Cult rather than give the position of religion. Religion is from a Latin word that basically means to RE Link. Through our Myths, our Poetry and our Ritual we Relink to the Godess. Although Pagans worship the Godess in many different ways one generally accepted idea is that Godess is immanent. Godess does not Rule the World, She IS the world. She is too vast to be held in one Book

ZenMastr:

kewl

ANNWYN:

or series of books or be bound to one ideal. Rather she is in everything

slinky:

propositional truth

ANNWYN:

and throughout all time

Caireen:

Do you believe that one Goddess encompasses all the Goddesses?

ANNWYN:

She in not a Godess of revelation

ANNWYN:

one that appeared at one point in time and from that time forward was "the way".

weaver:

was that ideal or idea?

ANNWYN:

the "only way". But instead reveals herself to us all ways. There is no place she isn't. There is no time she has not been. By the very premise of our own religion that ours is a religion of poetry and NOT doctrine evolving and not finite, we accept Godess as Myth, challenge doctrine with metaphor, and embrace all the faces of the Godess

Caireen:

We accept Goddess as truth not myth

ANNWYN:

by pursuing the understanding that metaphor, myth, poetry is OUR WAY to explain the reality we RE LINK. Matrifocal cultures based on Nature celebrate diversity as they see diversity in nature. Diversity assures survival and continuing evolution when something becomes too specialized

slinky:

can we be sure of reality. I mean our vision is really in our brains but as if projected in front of us...

ANNWYN:

to limited it is not free or able to make the changes necessary to support changes that occur within its environment or to maintain an existence necessary for its survival. Doctrine and the belief of being the way - the only way -

Caireen:

Again I question the idea of Goddess as myth; a myth is something that is not real

ANNWYN:

negates the ability to vary. In diversity we are invited to RELINK to the Mother, to the Godess. In as many ways as we can imagine through the needs

Autumn:

the goddess is real not a myth caireen

Red Deer:

That depends upon your definition of mythology, Caireen

ANNWYN:

and understanding of our current existence and experience. Our religion is in essence alive

Autumn:

if she is not real then neither is Jesus

slinky:

yes, i question the idea of Godess as nonreality, then it is simply a human mind thing... how lame...

Autumn:

which i wish in the case of Jesus was true

ANNWYN:

She has left us many palpable items of her existence, but it is in ourselves that we are closest to the Godess. For whatever you look to find, if you do not find it within

weaver:

any system of belief is a myth

ANNWYN:

you will surely not find it without.

ARENT YOU GLAD I am done?

Ocean'sEdge:

wow, I actually remained quiet through the whole thing!

slinky:

I think I'll stick to June Cleaver

ZenMastr:

thanks ANN

ANNWYN:

BB

Red Deer:

EXCELLENT Annie!

Arcadea:

{---------thanks Ann for a most enjoyable, informative class, looking forward to the next

ANNWYN:

{{{Zen}}}

MoonDragon:

MM Tallisia

Morrigan:

this is really fascinating!

PAniteowl:

whew!!! good job Annie

Red Deer:

A thousand thank you's!

ZenMastr:

{{{{{Annwyn}}}}

DeathDesire:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ANN}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

slinky:

just kidding Anne, very interesting

Sylverhare:

Annie, although I respect the works of Gimbutas and Eisler et al., we still must acknowledge that MOST of what they present are theories with just as little verification as earlier more "male centered" anthropological theories.

IndigoFire:

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sylverhare:

though I thank you

ANNWYN:

Will be less verbose next time

weaver:

thanks a bunch!

Azerothh:

thank you

ANNWYN:

sorry not sure oh time and typing

Morrigan:

cant wait for the next class

Malekyth:

Uhm, I came in near the end of it. Could you please repeat your entire lecture, just for me?

Ocean'sEdge:

Ann if we are going to be pursuing this for some time may I recommend some reading material

DeathDesire:

LOL

Freinsch:

No, Ann, it was good this way.

ANNWYN:

Uh.. NO Male

ZenMastr:

hehe aml

MoonDragon:

{----smacking Ma upside head...

Malekyth:

Aw, come on...

ANNWYN:

Thank you Frein

DeathDesire:

LOL

Malekyth:

OW!

Ocean'sEdge:

especially, Merlin Stone...Ancient Mirrors of Womanhood and When God was a Woman

Caireen:

How often do you have lectures like this?

Malekyth:

Yeah. Tell me when the next one starts, eh?

Morrigan:

every sunday night

PAniteowl:

good topic ..

MoonDragon:

Whew...LOOOOONNNGG lecture.. unfortunately, it sounded a lot like one of my 'Comparative Religions' classes. Very informative, but long.

ZenMastr:

now class is over, i can say it

Morrigan:

class starts at 9pm eastern

Morrigan:

on sunday nights

Malekyth:

Just on Sundays, then?

Sylverhare:

I also must point out that Isis worship was predominate in northern Africa till the (th cent CE, when it was wiped out by the advancing armies of Islam and NOT Xianity

SongSpring:

Ann.. what I was here for I enjoyed.. but I kept getting cut off

ANNWYN:

If you would please guys...IM me any topics.. re Godess you want me to cover

Ocean'sEdge:

Song Red Deer posts the transcripts

SongSpring:

Ann.. you have that book I was talking about? "Maiden, Mother, Crone"?

Malekyth:

Are there any other Odinists who might give a lecture sometime? We non-Wiccans sometimes feel left out...

Ocean'sEdge:

Song, have you read Merlin Stone?

SongSpring:

Yes.

Red Deer:

Have enjoyed immensely... if anyone needs to get on the mailing list, please E-mail me at HUZD85A

Brightest Blessings and Merry Part {{{room}}}