Red Deer:

MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE?

AhDuh:

how long is the class sseeion?

Arcadea:

otay RD

Pandora:

yes, red..

Red Deer:

being 9:00 PM PST (that be Pagan, not Pacific) let's begin

ANNWYN:

This class is as long as it is..or when the baby wakes up

Red Deer:

about an hour

AhDuh:

:)

Red Deer:

Class Etiquette:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

melilot:

<---loggin

Red Deer:

thanks meli

Arcadea:

<---logging

ViragoWitch:

<--- protesting the logging of the majestic trees

Red Deer:

5) With that, I pass the besom to Annwyn

thanks Arc

ANNWYN:

the besom?...hehe...I've been needin one

Sorry...

Ready?

Arcadea:

yeppers Ann

ANNWYN:

If I could press my hand upon the layers of my life, would there be any resistance or would my movement continue unimpeded? Until I had managed the expanse of my reach and, when I withdrew having trolled the waters of my lifetimes, what treasures would I find in my open palm, the soul-net of my eternities?

It is very difficult within Wicca to speak of resurrection... A passing through death to be born again and NOT speak of the Great Round of birth, death, and rebirth within the cycles of the year wheel... throughout the process of individuation intrinsic to the expression of the Great Mother... All life rises, returns and rises again from the creative void. In examinining the resurrection myths of ancient times as well as our own belief system we find several archetypes overlapping: that of the Sun/Solar God, God of Vegetation/Green Man, the Sacrificial King... AND we find Spring the beginning... and the harvest the end... Blending as one...

We find the relationship of death and birth juxtaposed and separated by the thinnest veil. If the seed is the beginning - pure potential - so the harvest...the empty field is open for infinite possiblity. And in both we find the promise. Another myth... that of Demeter/Persephone is built around the same theme of death to this world, descent change, rebirth... But it differs in that the Mother/Daughter is continuous: the change that occurs to Persephone is one of "wholeness", fullness... adeepening of self, "eternal yet ever becoming". And for the God... who travels the wheel this journey is one of sacrifice... "service" to the whole(ness) which is the Goddess.

Although it would seem more likely to look to the harvest time/summer's end for the death and ressurection of the God... we find several of the resurrection myths enacted in the spring with the offering of the God's blood as an additional assurance to the fertility of the land/people. Also this time frame reflects the sacred marriage... whereby the God and goddess are joined "daylight/sun/God equal to darkness/moon/Goddess... the Earth has opened herself both to receiving the light and releasing the spirit of vegetation/Green Man/Corn God that has rested inside her throughout the dark months. He that was her child the year before... now her lover and with this union the divine child of the coming year is conceived to be born at the Winter Solstice...

Meli..remind me to go into the coming twice thing at the end of class

melilot:

will do ann

ANNWYN:

The theme of the rising dying god at spring or harvest share in common the element of transition. Their deaths such as Attis who castrated himself... Adonis/Adoni/Lord was castrated in honor of the goddess... Osiris/Tamus-Dumuzi who were hacked to death... all go through a voilent/unwilling end as part of their death/release process... giving over of ego to the better of the whole then descend to the underwolrd where various measures procure/assure their rebirth/return.

Osiris and Attis find themselves bound to a tree (though the actual event varies in different translations). Attis is portrayed dying under a pine (evergreen, never dying) being buried in a cave and rising on the third day. I believe Dionysus (a Corn God version of the dying/rising God) shared the third day theme... which has Lunar tones of the three days of the dark moon... that then waxes again to full. Dionysus is an interesting Rising God... unlike many of these figures who are born of virgin mothers... he was born once of a Woman (Semele) and then again from his own father's (Zeus') thigh. At his birth he was wrapped in swaddling clothes and placed in a manger. He was also attributed with turning water to wine... and feeding the multitudes in the wilderness. The God Mithras shares in the manger birth... as well as shepherd's showing tribute... Attis was known as the "good Shepherd".

The symbol of the tree/pole is linked also to the World Tree and is found from Ireland to India and the image of the dying rising god on a tree/pole/cross was a very common pagan theme throughout ancient civilizations as the tree/cross for those Gods sharing a death at/near the Vernal equinox... the cross may have represented not an actual material cross but made reference to an astrological occurence of this time - that being the "crossing of two astrological celestial circles". I apologize at this point for not being more

explicit regarding these myths... and suggest you take the time to look a bit further into each one of these.

The language is very rich and moving... and really I cannot do justice to them here... I may in the upcoming months post a bit more on the BB of them. These myths are found worldwide including many aboriginal cultures... and precolumbian Mexico. In Finnish myth Lemminkainen is cut to pieces by Markahuattu and his body thrown into a river... he is resurrected when hismother finds his remains and pieces them together... similar to Osiris' fate. She then calls on the bee to bring honey and restore him. The bee being a strong Goddess symbol... and honey being likened to blood as far as its lifegiving and replenishing/rebirthing implications.

The Goddess symbols inherent in these myths as well as those of Odin on the tree... and Llew/Lugh and other Celtic myths along this line again are very rich in nature. Some show resurrection/rebirth hidden in shapeshifting themes... or "reincarnation"... rather than specifically resurrection, so I did not include them here. They carry again symbols such as the Cauldron of Rebirth which if you look into the above myths correspond to rivers (Osiris) and caves as mentioned which in essence are the womb of the Great Mother

Another theme I did not pursue but would suggest if interested is the Bread/wine theme... "This is my body... This is my blood..." This corresponds specifically to the Osiris/Dionysus myths which reflect the fruits and life giving line of the Mother, thus the vegetation themes... again too much for here... though I might add that Osiris had a last supper and was turned against by one of his followers. One very absent figure you may see in tonight's class was that of Jesus. The correlations between his story and the above

figures is staggering... If yo venture into the births of these Gods... you will find some very interesting likenesses... as well as the true strength of the "Virgin Mary". Out of respect for those who share our religion area... I did not want to specifically point out where these myths cross...

A norse priest whom Xian missionairies sought to convert said "I must not depart from the faith which I have held, and my forefather's fathers (mothers... my addition) before me; on the other hand I shall make no objection to your believing in the God that pleases you best."

Although the above myths came thousands of years before Jesus, the Christians believe that the "devil" knew of his coming and set these stories before so as to confuse us... Considering the absolute beauty of these stories... then that the Devil must not be absolute evil afterall...

But we can as part of our faith turn to a greater story teller still... "Mythology is the knowledge that the ancients had of the divine; it is religious truth expressed in poeteical terms... Our objective must be to DISCOVER with the help of Gods who manifest themselves through Nature...

Following the sun through the course of the day... full glory and then retreat... I watch it balze furious red in battle against its inevitable demise as darkness calls to me the stars hold winsome vigil until the rosy morn is called forth by the songbirds... and at dawn from the primal deep the golden orb apears and once more I feel the warmth that encourages my spirit to grow... and the light that compels my soul to seek.

Myth enough for me...

Floor open

melilot:

tell us about the "second" coming ann

ANNWYN:

ah shucks... Did I put you to sleep again? hehe...

ViragoWitch:

2nd coming?

TargeDubh:

It looks to me that the Xians just turned around our ways to make their own

ANNWYN:

Minute Targe...

ANNWYN:

but the coming of a man is exactly this death to the whole... the penis... rises... and then reaching its apex... releases... we also have tied into this the vegetaion theme... the seed then is planted and that which is of the father becomes the son...

melilot:

and dies... only to rise again.

ANNWYN:

the seed itself dies... is transformed to become other than it was

Red Deer:

Targe - that is historically the way of a new religion...

ANNWYN:

Targe... yep... and no...

Red Deer:

our Pagan ancestors took over some of the religion of those that THEY displaced from western Europe as well

ANNWYN:

RD... true to a point... the Romans actually often incorporated or accepted the religions of the areas it conquered...

Silverwing:

The seed can only become that which it was.

ANNWYN:

but it is no longer... "the seed"

Lord 0f Dark:

or that which it should be

Silverwing:

Whatever it becomes, it was before

TargeDubh:

not so Silver for I am much different than my father

Lord 0f Dark:

as am i

ANNWYN:

and it goes into the creative void... is transformed and then born again...

PAniteowl:

and each seed is "all" that it was... so there is migration, and there is evolution as a natural process

Silverwing:

Because you are a different seed

ANNWYN:

aye... PA

Nestor:

yes Annyn if the pagans behaved more like Romans than new agers we would have a lot less problems

Red Deer:

but you are all talking as if a child were composed of only a seed... forgetting the egg of the mother altogether

ANNWYN:

Nestor..I would encourage you to do a class on Mithras...

Nestor:

ah yes soon

ANNWYN:

the info I have is so sketchy... I really didn't want to proceed with that

Red Deer:

and, as I've stated before, I do NOT believe the ancients were unaware of this

ANNWYN:

One thing I wanted to add tonight was this if I may

Red Deer:

kewl Nestor... just let me know when

Nestor:

ok Rd will do

ANNWYN:

In my research... I came across a piece that a Jewish person wrote

PAniteowl:

RD... in the natural process, there is evidence that the "joining" of the spririts became the "seed"

ANNWYN:

if reference to what to do if Xian Missionaries questioned them about their religion... it was scathing...

Red Deer:

that I can live with PA, but the discussion wasn't of joined products, but of what the man planted (= sperm to me)

ANNWYN:

I wanted to impart... that we should be so sure of our faith as not to NEED to be that way

ViragoWitch:

And i just came from an infertility discussion... must be something in the water today

ANNWYN:

only if we question can we be questioned... and we don't have the need to witness...

PAniteowl:

sorry, RD... I do hate coming in late ... so I guess I've missed that point

ANNWYN:

Just glad to see you PA

Red Deer:

better to come late than not at all PA

Lord 0f Dark:

yeah... true

TargeDubh:

I feel the same as the Norse priest you mentioned Annie

ANNWYN:

yuck... I just swallowed a moth... hehe... maybe a great bard will arive in nine months...

PAniteowl:

... thanks

ANNWYN:

Aye... Targe

Nestor:

I am suggesting that we all honor the 26th of June as the date of the murder of the last pagan Emperor - Julian by Christians by a spear in his back duing a battle with the Persians

Red Deer:

a date worthy of note, Nestor

Nestor:

26 june 363 AD stands as a date for us

melilot:

the seed will result in the same type as the giver of the seed it will not result in the same person/plant/whatever

ViragoWitch:

Nestor- how about if you throw a party? We'll all come to your house. Very wothy of note

TargeDubh:

in my travels around the world I have seen many different religions

ANNWYN:

toga party?

Nestor:

will hand out arms VW

PAniteowl:

toga party??

Red Deer:

toga! Toga!! TOGA!!!

Gw10:

toga,toga,toga

ViragoWitch:

toga! toga! TOGA!

ANNWYN:

Puts it in perspective... huh Targe?

Lord 0f Dark:

toga

ViragoWitch:

LOL RD. GMTA

ANNWYN:

hehe... look what I started...

Lord 0f Dark:

haha

Nestor:

time for pagans to be less passive and more agressive - The WEST is Ours!!

TargeDubh:

and had the chance to view thier rituals and found them all very interesting

ANNWYN:

talk about planting a seed

melilot:

toga? i have this problem with wearing sheets gang

Lord 0f Dark:

hahaha

ANNWYN:

Targe will be in full regimental toga

Lord 0f Dark:

me too

Nestor:

Ave Targe

TargeDubh:

LOL annie

Red Deer:

We watched "Harriet the Spy" last night... Rosie O'Donnell said MANY meaningful things, but the one that fits here is

Arcadea:

how bout a veil Meli?

Nestor:

Ave Targe!!

ViragoWitch:

<--- will come dressed as a Vestal

ViragoWitch:

Red Deer:

"There are as many ways to live life as there are people... each worth looking into."

melilot:

only if i can wear seven and take them off when I want arc

ANNWYN:

ah... another topic I did not cover... the light within each of us...

ViragoWitch:

I like that, RD

Red Deer:

but you're no virgin VW

Lord 0f Dark:

haha

ANNWYN:

each an expression of the Goddess... each worthy and whole

TargeDubh:

the one I enjoyed the most was the Hindi festival of lights

Arcadea:

otay by me Meli,

ViragoWitch:

oh yeah.. i keep forgetting that.

Arcadea:

are the veils thin or thick that time of year

Nestor:

yes RD my borther --but when they willnot accept that fact then it is time we stand together and overthrow the slime with pagan power!!

ANNWYN:

Can we log off for class?

Nestor... you are on a roll tonight!

Red Deer:

works for me... we seem to be widening scope beyond the topic

TargeDubh:

I think we can Annie

Nestor:

Ha yes my dear sister

ViragoWitch:

I hope so... this is going downhill...

ANNWYN:

but it will rise again!

Red Deer:

LOGGING OFF