Natural Parenting & Paganism Facilitator : Arcadia Date : 05 October 1997

Red Deer:
Before we begin, please consider leading a session of Wicca 101... everyone has something to offer! To volunteer, E-mail me:
HUZD95A@prodigy.com
1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.
2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.
3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).
4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

Arcadia:
{-----logging

LadyOfPeace:
{~~~~logging

Red Deer:
With that, I pass the besom to my dear sis Arc, who will lead is in a discussion of "Natural Parenting & Paganism"...
thanks loggers {g}

CJLEO:
loggin

Arcadia:
First of all, let me apologize for all the typos you are about to endure, but no way could I figure out those Macros, so, here goes

LadyOfPeace:
LOL Arc

Red Deer:
Arc - make Nestor proud!

PAniteowl:
LOL

Arcadia:
Last week we covered Nes Age Parenting... I would like to at this time thank every one for their outstanding contributions to the discussion

MafiaMama3:
u go, arc,,,

Arcadia:
As I have thought about it all week I realized that in that discussion, we just touched the tip of the ice berg. This week we look at Natural Parenting. One of the strongest points that was raised last week was the importance in raising the child in an atmosphere of Love, That is a given. But let us look beyond that, to the issues that the child is faced with, both in and outside of it's Pagan home. The United Nations has a "Declaration of the Rights of a child" that I would like to share with you. It is my opinion that Pagan parents adhere to this more so than other religious structures.
Every child in the world has rights.
Every child has the right to be strong and healthy in mind and body.
Every child has the right to have a name and a country.
Every child has the right to have enough food to eat, a place to live and a doctors care.
Every child who is handicapped has the right to special treatment and care.
Every child has the right to grow up in a family feeling safe, loved and understood.
Every child had the right to go to school and to play.
Every child has the right to be watched over and taken care of in times of danger.
Every child has the right to be protected from cruelty or unfair treatment.
Every child has the right to grow up without fear and hatred, and with love, peace and friendship all around.
We have two issues facing us when dealing with our religion. First, being a Nature Religion, and secondly, being a highly misunderstood religion.. A religion for the better part of society has deemed to be evil, or at the least, unhealthy. Let us first look a the first issue. I don't know about the rest of you, but until I found this particular chat room I had spent many years alone in my religion. I did not belong to a coven, and had to learn the best way I could, through books, and Nature itself.

LT BRI:
Arcadia, why do people consider Wicca evil?

Arcadia:
It wasn't until I found chat that I realized that there were hundreds and thousands of others just like me! Not just one or Two.
LT, I will be glad to take questions during the discussion...
At long last, I felt verified! I could now give a name to what I believed. In the past, all I knew was that I was a witch, I had been introduced to this Nature Religion as a teenager, I found all

melilot:
correction arc there are exactly 5 just like you {EG}

LadyOfPeace:
lol

Arcadia:
of Nature to be sacred, and I believed in more than one God and Goddess
LOL Meli, I know that now {eg} Goddess help me {g}

Elenya:
{{{{{Arc}}}}

PAniteowl:
{{{{{{{{{Arc}}}}}}}}}

Arcadia:
And beyond all that, there was this sense of wonder, this mysterious ability to commune with the Gods, and to participate, that had been denied me in my own upbringing. So as a parent, that is what I taught my children. That you have to believe in yourself, have faith in yourself and work for what you wanted. That each and everyone of us have a responsibility to each other, and to this earth that provides for us. That there was possibilities and realities in getting what you wanted. Be it good or bad. There was an energy alive and well in the world and wishes and dreams could be attained. And the children were taught that there were consequences to any action taken. The 3 fold rule was another thing that was unnamed for the longest time, but it's knowledge was not lost to me. Was that due to the communion with the Gods I wonder? Where is all this leading , you ask yourself {g}

MafiaMama3:
:-)

Cloudburst:
:-}

PAniteowl:
Lead on .. Arc {G}

Red Deer:
:-}

Arcadia:
Well, from last weeks discussion, I think it fair to say that a Pagan is going to raise their children as Pagans. And a true Pagan will always leave the final decision to the child. But my question is, how much do you teach, and for how long? If as a parent you are solo, do you plan to start a "family tradition?" If you are a covenor, when do you bring you children into the coven? Does it make a difference if it is a Celebratory Circle , or a Working Circle?

WiseWitch:
{--- already answered those questions [g]

Arcadia:
I was lucky enough to have Nestor, Cloudburst and WiseWitch fill me in on some of the ways in which covens function, regarding the raising of Pagan Children.
LOL
Nestor says that "while each of the various traditions are slightly different in their approach, almost all of them do have special "children's circles" at the Sabbats. In his own tradition, the Gardnerian, some High Priestesses allow on occasion children of initiates to come into a regular circle for Sabbats, but even those do not allow them in "Circle" when it is an Esbat or when "work" is being done.
It was pointed out to me, that parents were encouraged to hold private circles with their children so that they would understand the faith of their parents and learn how not to talk about things like this is public even when people would be "attacking the Craft".

WiseWitch, in explaining the Druid side of Paganism says that members of the grove are allowed to bring children into their rituals, but, the "Inner Circle" vs the "Outer Circle" ...the full moons are only open to those who are Inner Circles a group bonding issue since their High Days are open to all. Some of the Lore Meetings however, are probably not for minors, like the ones on Sex Magick.

Cloudburst:
{G}

elmn8h8:
{blushing}

Arcadia:
Cloudburst, another one time covenor very graciously responded by telling me that the Heathren Grove Coven in which she was HPs, had children between 2 and 8 which were welcome at anything they would have had a non-member at (mostly new moons and all celebrations). All agreed however, that initiations, or full membership in to the coven, or grove, was at a minimum age of 18. All agreed also, that Wiccaning, was a ceremony for a new child, welcoming them to the community and invoking the blessings of the god/dess/es on them. But was not an indoctrination of faith!
The second issue, that of being misunderstood and deemed evil or unhealthy only serves to show me, at least, that regardless of age, children should be shown that Paganism is a vital part of History, and that through our ways and means, the Reverence and Sacredness of Our Planet, and All Things, is necessary to restore a balance to Mankind, that, in my opinion, is Sorely missing!
And with that, I will open the floor to questions, comments and general rabble rousing {g}

MafiaMama3:
LOL, arc

Peacemkr32:
{---- missed the class on rabble rousing

Arcadia:
next week Peace {g}

Capt spam:
{---rabble

HeavenTo:
{-----------cant talk toothache :)

LadyOfPeace:
{~~~~~~rousing

Peacemkr32:
Ahhhh, should've been a pre requisite

elmn8h8:
:::raising hand:::i have a question:)

MafiaMama3:
as far as i am concerned, children of Pagan parents should be taught all that the parents think they will understand at any given point in their lives, just like children of any other parents who

melilot:
{--------does not raise rabble only men

Cloudburst:
Funny, when I was doing the questions, I didn't think to mention "family circles"; we all did t
them, so I don't think it was ever a coven issue...

Red Deer:
{--- risen

Arcadia:
go ahead

MafiaMama3:
believe in their own religion,,,

ofBELTANE:
lol..meli

MafiaMama3:
as always, Red Deer, hehehe

Red Deer:
agreed mama

elmn8h8:
now, at 18 children are allowed to join the coven, would that be generally just your own children or other 18 year olds in the community?

Arcadia:
thanks for pointing that out Cloud

HeavenTo:
does elm get a cookie for having the first question?

Red Deer:
{--- passes elm a cookie

elmn8h8:
hmm, i vote yes{S}

MafiaMama3:
if they believe as pagans, why not elm?

elmn8h8:
i hope i don't hafta roll over for this:)

Arcadia:
Cloud, can I use your expertise on Elm's question? {g}

Warmuth:
depends on the coven and tradition

melilot:
yes she does heaven and it's chocolate chip

Cloudburst:
um, sure Arc

Hart's Child:
::passes elmn some milk to go with that::
{g}

elmn8h8:
i don't know, but it seems like some adults might be wary of teenagers that aren't family members

elmn8h8:
thank u hart

Peacemkr32:
Shouldn't Children also Be taught discretion along with the religion ?

Warmuth:
of course

Cloudburst:
I think many groups are open to dedicating children of members at younger ages than 18, given lifelong training and all that{G}

HeavenTo:
naturally

Arcadia:
and to follow that, if a person under 18 cannot initiate into a coven, how do they gain exposure in the first place?

Cloudburst:
though frequently actual initiation is left to late teens

Elenya:
through family, Arc

Hart's Child:
I think it would be somewhat uncomfortable to be in a coven with your own parents unless it was a family circle.

Arcadia:
thanks El

Elenya:
and friends {g}

Cloudburst:
Arc, this is less of a question where people are members on dedication. Gives more flex-they can come to classes, etc. just like anybody

Peacemkr32:
Arc, I think you answered that Question Before you asked it

MafiaMama3:
yes, friends like all of u in here,,,

Red Deer:
I'd guess a lot of them would have to practice solo (like many of us) until they've made some contacts could be for MANY years

Peacemkr32:
where did you find exposure ?

Arcadia:
hehehe, just generating discussion Peace {g}

MafiaMama3:
agreed, Red Deer

Peacemkr32:
I Know, But can you see my point ?

elmn8h8:
that's what i'm doing now, and i have contacts, but um, i haven't contacted them cause i don't want them to think i'm just a stupid teenager looking for kicks u know::wrinkling nose:::

Warmuth:
If a child is Wiccaned into a coven he is sort of a Jr. member....when the time comes to join, they are well known by the other coveners and there is usually no problem

Arcadia:
I found exposure through friends...

Hart's Child:
That's how I feel

Red Deer:
Peace... I read, and communed with my teachers in nature

Cloudburst:
elm, if you have contacts, maybe there's a way you can show them you're serious before you ask them for any kicks{G}

Arcadia:
but still had to fight against "society's" definition of what a Witch is, and one they still carry, for the most part

Hart's Child:
a lot of my fellow teens that are pagans seem to do it out of rebellion or to be cool

Red Deer:
my biggest suggestion elm would be to discuss religion, not magick

Peacemkr32:
Red Deer I agree with that as well, However, with the growth of the Internet, this is a new means of reaching out for most

Cloudburst:
though many groups don't want you for a student before 18 without parents' permission, for fairly obvious reasons...

elmn8h8:
he he he, thanks for the advice cloud

LadyOfPeace:
True Arc, just let them see a Pentagram and its Oh No you are a Satan Worshipper!!!

MafiaMama3:
i have a question... w/ regards to teens... if they r not family... isn't it kinda dangerous to just allow them to participate in any way? i mean maybe they r just their out of curiosity, etc and can make

elmn8h8:
yeah, i can understand that

Arcadia:
that is why I think it is so important for a Parent, not only Pagan, to raise their children to be open minded, to ask questions, and not follow blindly!

MafiaMama3:
some trouble for the coven?

elmn8h8:
argh! lady, u have no idea:::shaking head:::

HeavenTo:
lol isn't that true

Red Deer:
I find that more often false than true peace

LadyOfPeace:
I agree Arc

ofBELTANE:
this is the discussion portion...right?

elmn8h8:
i hafta wear mine under my shirt cause i kept getting asked all these weird questions in front of half the school

Red Deer:
aye

ofBELTANE:
{s}

LadyOfPeace:
yes I do Elm.... that's why I go into such detail about the differences in the Pentagrams on my Pentagram page

Elenya:
though not a coven, don't you think we helped answer some teenagers questions this summer, Arc?

Hart's Child:
then there are those of us who are serious about it

Peacemkr32:
Red Deer I'm referring to getting them in contact with others via the internet

Red Deer:
I do deer

PAniteowl:
LOL .. I think we did El {G}

elmn8h8:
that's a good idea

Arcadia:
that is a good point mama, my children have friends who ask questions, and I tell them answers to the best of my ability

Elenya:
and probably made many more questions surface {g}

Arcadia:
yes, very much so Elenya

LadyOfPeace:
Everyone If I may.......????????

HeavenTo:
mine just think i'm weird :}

Hart's Child:
I was too afraid to get a pent cause I live in the south & so I got a goddess pendant

Red Deer:
think of that as a compliment Heaven

HeavenTo:
i do

Red Deer:
I always thank folk who tell me I'm weird

xHoney:
lol heaven...you are

MafiaMama3:
and that is how it should be, but i know it kinda scares me to think that some things will be told outside of a ritual to the wrong people, and i know u ALL know what i mean

LadyOfPeace:
{~~~Raising hand

elmn8h8:
{i live in the bible belt too hart

Elenya:
just jump in, Lady

HeavenTo:
:} thanks honey

LadyOfPeace:
{~~~in Texas

Hart's Child:
isn't it awful? {s} me too lady

MafiaMama3:
it is, hart

LadyOfPeace:
There are a number of GREAT PLACES on the web For Kids of Pagan and Wiccan parents

PAniteowl:
Hmmm .. Is there anyplace that isn't bible belted??? {G}

elmn8h8:
yes, it sure is:(

MafiaMama3:
LOL, PA

Cloudburst:
Really, Lady?

Peacemkr32:
{--- Will attend to Lady's "problem"

LadyOfPeace:
Yes Cloud....... I have them on my Pagan and Wiccan Links page {EG} Baby

elmn8h8:
well mainly its over here in SE America, its not so bad other places, as far as i've heard

Elenya:
aye, Lady - my kids love the Megan stories

ofBELTANE:
well, as a Wiccan married to a Christian, we teach our 3 kids both faiths along with tolerance for all faiths, so that when the time comes they can make the choice right for themselves

Peacemkr32:
PA... Seattle isn't

CJLEO:
PA, east and west coast areas are less bible belted.

melilot:
my house PA

MafiaMama3:
PA, NY isn't either,,,{G}

Red Deer:
wait a minute... I live on the east coast and its pretty tight here

Arcadia:
Beltane that falls exactly into the open-mindedness that I think is so important in Child rearing

ofBELTANE:
I agree Arc

PAniteowl:
agree Arc

Elenya:
speak for yourself, CJ - we have Jessie Helms here

Red Deer:
my bet would go more to rural vs urban

MafiaMama3:
exactly, arc, no diff w/ Wicca than w/ catholic and Jewish, let's say, IMHO, anyway

Hart's Child:
EEEEK!!!

LadyOfPeace:
Texas...... we are talking Southern Baptist... The WORST

elmn8h8:
ack!

CJLEO:
I find New England pretty open, also New York and Washington

Red Deer:
{--- I'm from North Carolina and I DON'T support Jesse Helms

MafiaMama3:
not as bad as church of Christ, lady

Elenya:
Aye, m'dear

Red Deer:
BUT, could we get back to parenting?

elmn8h8:
oh yeah:)

ofBELTANE:
lol

Arcadia:
But one of the biggest differences in our religion is we recognize the need to take care of the Earth more so than other religions

PAniteowl:
Well, don't we all have family discussions?? Don't our children absorb our predilections? Are we living what we preach?

Cloudburst:
Arc, that's one place we CAN safely communicate with other people's children, IMO

Red Deer:
our religion focuses on the reciprocal relationship between us and the earth, our mutual participation with everything in existence

Arcadia:
I agree cloud

MafiaMama3:
my mom in law still thinks i am a heathen just coz i am catholic and find a need and want to understand other religions,,,

Cloudburst:
I used to take the hyperkriss kids down the street with us on litterpicking expeditions and the like...

PAniteowl:
Yep, Red Deer ...

elmn8h8:
wait a sec, what's IMO?

Peacemkr32:
So when is a Good age to start them in understanding Circles ?

Red Deer:
aye... I talked about religion with El's brother for years without calling it such

Cloudburst:
In My Opinion

LadyOfPeace:
When they start asking about it??

elmn8h8:
oh, thank u:)

Red Deer:
to the point that he wasn't so taken back when he started reading our website

MafiaMama3:
good idea, Red Deer

PAniteowl:
Yes Red Deer ... and you talk to your children too {G}

Arcadia:
That is what I have relied upon Lady

elmn8h8:
the problem occurs when u use the "W" word

Cloudburst:
My kids were exposed to circle in the festival environment, and just got explanations as they
asked for them

LadyOfPeace:
Peace and I are fixing to enter this phase Arc

MafiaMama3:
lady, religion is just like anything else, when kids wanna know something, they ask,

Red Deer:
as to circles, Peacemakr - our oldest daughter started doing her own healing circles and using white light in the 4th grade

PAniteowl:
No Elmn8 .. my family has always used Witch as a description {G}

Cloudburst:
When #1 was 5 he told a neighbor WE went to church OUTSIDE, and the earth didn't collapse under his feet{G}

Red Deer:
aye owlie, the girls know that I'm a Witch...

Elenya:
I find children to be much more accepting than adults - on most issues

MafiaMama3:
but that is coz u came from a family of witches, yes PA?

Peacemkr32:
Ok, Thank you Red Deer..... I'm gonna have to get a move on pretty soon then

PAniteowl:
Yep Red Deer {G} ..

Red Deer:
rofl cloud

PAniteowl:
Sure Mama ... it's always been a "given"

LadyOfPeace:
OK Per Red Deer request........

MafiaMama3:
as i thought,,,{S}

elmn8h8:
but i couldn't do that in my house... no way

Hart's Child:
same here

HeavenTo:
gotta go,,,,,,,,, blessings

LadyOfPeace:
For those of you interested in the Pagan and Wiccan Youth sites, my Profile has my URL Listed

Cloudburst:
I think the neighbor just thought maybe our church had services outdoors in the summer...pretty accurate, come to think of it{G}

Hart's Child:
mine are still under the impression that Wicca is a cult

ofBELTANE:
MP all

MafiaMama3:
is very hard for adults to understand, especially if they r staunch Christians of any kind,,,

elmn8h8:
thnx lady

Hart's Child:
no amount of explanation will convince them otherwise

LadyOfPeace:
I hope its right... Honey would you look and see if its right??

MafiaMama3:
hart's, have u ever tried to give them a book to read?

Peacemkr32:
Lower case in "of" Lady

MafiaMama3:
is so sad that so many folks r so closed minded to all that this earth has to offer,

Hart's Child:
yeah, but they "never had time"

elmn8h8:
i have, my moms' reading the Farrar's the Pagan Path... i was gonna let her read Drawing Down the Moon, but there are a few parts...

Arcadia:
Perhaps Hart that is why it is so important to start with the simplistic side IE taking responsibility of your own actions generally showing the outward benefits of our religion

MafiaMama3:
know what, hart's? 'tis really their loss if they don't wanna take the time to understand u as their child,

Alagna:
Arcadia... Can you suggest a good children's book to start introducing Pagan/Wiccan discussions with 4 & 6 yr. olds?

LadyOfPeace:
No its not Honey..... I just looked

elmn8h8:
of course i hafta go to church in exchange for the favor, but its not so bad when there is an exchange of communication

Peacemkr32:
ok

Arcadia:
Red Deer can you help on that one

LadyOfPeace:
Thank you though *Kiss*

Red Deer:
sorry, help with what one?

Arcadia:
I have a list but it is lost in the shuffle book? A book... recommending a book for children

MafiaMama3:
for children, Red Deer

Red Deer:
Mountains, Meadows and Moonbeams by Mary SummerRain

Hart's Child:
is the truth about witchcraft today any good?

Arcadia:
FOUND IT

Red Deer:
its not pagan per se, but very spiritual (and lots of pagan stuff sorta slide in)

ValkyrieFire:
I'm sorry, but the Discworld Witches are my fave. Granny Weatherwax is my hero

MafiaMama3:
whatcha mean, hart's?

Alagna:
Thanks, that will get us started.

Hart's Child:
it's a book

GythaOgg:
I know-- I wouldn't take her name, it would feel sacrilegious

Red Deer:
and A Wrinkle in Time by

elmn8h8:
its good for the basics, but i've already explained those hart, i think the Pagan Path explains the "why" i want to do this, not just what it is

Red Deer:
can't say her name

Hart's Child:
oops here comes the parental unit now!!!

Red Deer:
'tis fiction, and again not SPECIFICALLY pagan, but great

MafiaMama3:
LOL

Red Deer:
Madeline L'Engle

Hart's Child:
merry part everyone

MafiaMama3:
bye, hart's

LadyOfPeace:
MP Hart

Hart's Child:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ROOM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

PAniteowl:
Um .. a non invasive way of approaching the "Old Ways", is to bring in some books on ethnic cultures {G} .. The Celtic Gods and Goddesses make great reading, as do the Greek and Roman myths

Red Deer:
well folk, my little toolbar clock say it be 10 PM so class over...