Red Deer:

MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE?

RebbelleRose:

"Hello" from Tyl..

Nestor11:

yes Warmuth starting in 2 weeks

ViragoWitch:

Nestor... I'll be there with bells on my ankles

Red Deer:

first, the list...

Warmuth:

rings on your toes??

Red Deer:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

Arcadia:

<-----logging

Red Deer:

5) With that, I pass the besom to Cloud, for whom I'll ward...

ViragoWitch:

<- loggin'

Cloudburst:

Thanks, RD

I don't have any macros tonight. I'd like to give a short recap of 4/27, react to that a little, and then open the floor with a couple questions I hope will move us ON from last time. We started with a question on the general reaction of Witches to the Burning Times, and the personal responses sidetracked us into what seems to have been largely a semantic discussion of the diff between anger and hate. RD, you were starting to say, I think, that if we KEEP our anger and allow it to stay with/in us, it can turn us toward a position closer to hate - have I got it?

Red Deer:

aye, except I said all the way to hate

Cloudburst:

Yup, you did. And what you were moving toward was that we need to move the anger OUT - get rid of it, in order to avoid letting it just sit there and grow?

Red Deer:

aye!

<--- visualizes it as "fester"

Capt Salt:

I agree Cloud - anger needs to come out our it festers and mainifests itself in hate @ much worse.

RebbelleRose:

But this is true in any situation, not just in reaction to the Burning Times.

Cloudburst:

Absolutely true, Reb. What happened next was a digression for the rest of the hour on whether or not we need to get rid of anger or just turnit into something else... and RD I think maintains that GONE is the way for anger to be...? RD?

Red Deer:

experienced, expressed and released Cloud

RebbelleRose:

except nothing is ever created or destroyed, you have to channel things into something else, which will help them move on.

Cloudburst:

Right

Reb, ENERGY is never created or destroyed, but it sure can get into funny conditions if we let it. Can move on?

Capt Salt:

Anger and hate are the two biggest human flaws to be overcome!

RebbelleRose:

yeah.. sorry.. ::blush::

Nestor11:

Actually Cloudburst -- I would suggest that we accept the "anger" as being real and a genuine factor - but then use that energy in creative and positive ways to make us stronger and wiser. it is a matter of "re-direction" not repression

Cloudburst:

Experienced = we never get to bury it, because it sticks around if we do.

Capt Salt:

You have to train yourself to redirect the energy from anger!

Cloudburst:

Expressed = It's OK to be mad and say we're mad AT THE TIME.

Warmuth:

exactly

Red Deer:

aye

Cloudburst:

Released = We DON'T get to keep it. Gotta be moved OUT.

Red Deer:

sounds healthy to me Cloud

Nestor11:

sorry Cloudburst - I don't see that as really facing the problem of the conflict

Capt Salt:

Many can only redirect anger into violence

Cloudburst:

Nes, restate?

Nestor11:

it seem that we are trying to change the nature semanticly and not learn to accept it and use it

Warmuth:

I agree

Cloudburst:

Accept yes, release rather than use

Red Deer:

Nes, I haven't heard anyone say don't use it

Nestor11:

we need that energy but need to focus it in a creative direction

ViragoWitch:

I think many people can, and do, redirect anger into positive routes.

Red Deer:

but use it now, when it's new and then be done with it

Nestor11:

work harder and wiser becasue we are agnery about what has been done and is being done to the pagans/wiccan community both in the past and now

Warmuth:

anger is one of the easiest emotions to harness for positive uses

Red Deer:

and that anger is righteous when we directly experience something of that nature and can react to it...

Nestor11:

anger can be a force which motovates positive change

Red Deer:

but not when it's only a matter of someone bringing up the subject

LilKeukaLili:

hello smart people

Capt Salt:

Only some people can control and redirect anger - not all!

Nestor11:

agreed Red Deer that we must move beyond the simple discussion of the worngs and focus on what is to be done now

Nestor11:

and move to create change in the environemnt in which we find ourselves

Cloudburst:

Absolutely, Nestor. Folks, can I establish some semantics for us to talk inside of?

Red Deer:

please

Capt Salt:

For me, a time of meditation, helps with the anger. I do seem more energized after

Warmuth:

anyone can channel anger for the positive...not is that not all CHOOSE to do it

Cloudburst:

RD, can we have The List again for the benifit if newcomers, please?

Red Deer:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

Cloudburst:

OK, I'm going to define a couple terms of discussion MY way. I'm sure you'll have differences with these, but would ask you to let the next few entries come to you without argument until done. ANGER, to me, is a secondary emotion. Something happens to us and we feel hurt, upset, wronged, whatever, and THAT feeling is what makes us mad. When we "use anger as positive energy" what we're doing, often , is channeling the energy back into responding to whatever it was we got mad ABOUT. The anger at the past that we get into at the mention of the Burning Times is often FEAR anger. We're mad because the history scares us about it happening again, mainl. Sometimes the Burning Times anger is about hurt - some of us seem to have past life experiences that make it real personal, which makes us more prone to getting PO'ed.

If we can release the anger, we can get back to dealing with the fear or whatever else was behind it, and direct the energy to working on preventing future recurrence (if that's what was scary) or in whatever other work seems needed. If we CAN'T release the anger, we end up hating the perpetrators - either a futile exercise in misdirecting energy into the past, or an equally futile exercise in doing things like bashing, which are at LEAST counterproductive and may actually work in FAVOR of what we're trying to prevent.

Whew! OK, said MY piece. Reactions, rational discussion, or amplifications before I ask you what you do to RELEASE anger?

Skyronxxx:

Well witches

Red Deer:

lively group...

KindredfIame:

i agree that anger is a secondary emotion...and definately that for somne of us, it is more personal... but I think it may be a bit more than that.

RebbelleRose:

Welll... I largely agree with the last section- as bashing only leads farther to the problems we're alerady having..

Red Deer:

I agree Cloud

Nestor11:

Well I think that the fear of being angery is part of the problem --it is fine to be angery look at the literature of pagans in the past

Skyronxxx:

Anger is what you make it

Nestor11:

were the Romans or the Acheans going to be quite about their opponents

Cloudburst:

Agreed, Nes - just not fine to hold on to it

RebbelleRose:

::nods:: I agree with Nestor, the Gods gave us emotion for a reason, and none of them are good OR bad. It how they are used.

it's even..

Red Deer:

I think that's been the point all along Rebb

Cloudburst:

Me too, RD

RebbelleRose:

<- maybe was reading funny...

KindredfIame:

For those who don't have personal experiences with the burning.. it's more or less just general offense of fellow people AND Pagans being killed without reason

Nestor11:

I am feeling that many want to make pagans into something that is 'socially' acceptable by emulation of christian or new age doctines -- would Homer have had Achellies be ashamed of his anger?

Azrael 7:

Powerful is a relative term =) spiders are powerful compared to flies.

KindredfIame:

that in itself should cause anger.. added to the fact that they were burned over silly superstitions and over their own rights.. it should enrage anyone who knows about it

Cloudburst:

Nes, if we try not to GET angry we're doing what you have a problem with - if we try not to STAY angry we're just being healthy humans who have better things to do

You're talking about immediate expression - definitely OK and necessary. It's festering's to be avoided

Red Deer:

aye Cloud

Nestor11:

well if you noticed that most pagan civilzations did not think that being angery at their professed enemies was something tobe ashamed of and if you notice the Christians like it or not --still see us as another faith ans since they are to be the only faith --then we must go along with everyone else

KindredfIame:

bible thumpers around here prove that well

Azrael 7:

Anger causes you to react, and as long as your reacting to the object of your anger, then you allow the object of your anger to continue to influence your decision.

Cloudburst:

Yes and no, Nes. We need to watch out for making blanket statements about all Christians

when what we're concerned about is some churches and their adherents

KindredfIame:

true.. but wouldn't dismissing that anger only cause more problems than the initial anger?

Nestor11:

Cloudbust -- why not accept that that is the basic premise of ANY monothestic religion --they are the ONLY ones with the TRUE FAITH

Azrael 7:

Perhaps it's inhuman to not get angry, but it's possible. It's just easier for everyone to succumb to anger, than to not get angry.

Cloudburst:

Flame, if I can release my anger, I free up that energy for real use instead of just letting it ferment until it turns into rash action

MASSsedation:

anger is simply the expression of insecurity

Red Deer:

Nestor... Hinduism is monotheistic, and that's not it's premise

Nestor11:

It seems we are getting into more 'psycho-bable' than dealing with the problems

Cloudburst:

Hinduism monotheistic?

KindredfIame:

I meant dismissing it by holding it in.. packing it away where you can find it only if you look for it.. not if you just get it out of your systme.. that would obviously be the best alternative

Red Deer:

yes

Nestor11:

If Hindisim is monothesitc Red Deer then I am the Pope

ViragoWitch:

Hinduism is polytheisitic-

KindredfIame:

hahaha

Red Deer:

nope

Cloudburst:

Hate to foster a digression, but I'm awful curious...

Red Deer:

in the Hindu faith there is one spirit with many faces

KindredfIame:

Isn't Buddism mono?

Cloudburst:

OK, if we mean it that way...

KindredfIame:

I thought it was.. I mgiht be wrong though

Cloudburst:

Thanks for the clarification on your view

KindredfIame:

no problem :)

Nestor11:

Red Deer --if you look at practicing Hindus -- not some theologicans --they would say that each of the Gods/Goddess are seperate

Azrael 7:

Actually, none of the eastern religions believe in "Gods" but "Idols". Almost mortal figures or entities, that they can seek to become.

ViragoWitch:

Triad of chief Hindu gods, the Trimurti: Brahma, Vishnu, & Siva- the creater, the preserver, & the destroyer. It's classified as having polytheistic forms

Nestor11:

the same way that pagan see their Gods and Goddess --some theologically see it as one --and others see it as many

ViragoWitch:

Although, it raises Brahan above the other divine manifestations...

Red Deer:

but I believe we've drifted away from our topic

KindredfIame:

Therefore, by that definition, the view would differ among practicers.. giving neither a poly or mono term.. wouldn't it?

Cloudburst:

OK, ten minutes for magicotechnicalities. People, what if someone comes to you asking about magic they can do to turn an anger into positively directable energy? Recommendations?

KindredfIame:

stones... I usually pack anything i can't handle into a gem that I set aside for that pupose.. then cleanse it every once and awhile

Nestor11:

Red Deer --I did nopt mean to drift away from the topic --rather point out that we have to face the realities of a montheistic system which has declared and continues to do so as a positive thing

LadyFaolann:

just remember anger sent out comes back thrice fold

KindredfIame:

I've found Carnielian is good for that

Nestor11:

no matter what Christian I deal with --they in the end see it as the 'True Faith" no matter how tollerant they speak of other faiths

Cloudburst:

OK, Flame suggests paking it into a stone. What do you do with the stone once it's packed?

LadyFaolann:

bury it

KindredfIame:

leave it in a place that nobody else can get to it

Cloudburst:

Uh, typed before I finished reading, Flame

RebbelleRose:

Best spell for dealing with anger - go sit somewhere quiet and just relax, calm down count to ten

Nestor11:

the trick for us is to focus our anger on positive actions to make us stronger and wiser and more secure

KindredfIame:

that way they aren't affected by what it contains.

Azrael 7:

A friend suggested to me an idea for dealing with anger. Burning an "anger" candle, and letting the anger burn up, then burying the candle.

KindredfIame:

when it gets to it's breaking point.. cleanse it for a day or two out in the sun/moonlight

Cloudburst:

Nes, I'm thinking that if I can focus it it isn't anger anymore. Let's look at ways of converting it

Cloudburst:

Good, Az. I'd let it burn all the way out, though

KindredfIame:

as far as converting it... you cold always use the anger packed in it to better means..

Red Deer:

saved we're in class... please turn on your IM & I'll explain

Nestor11:

well I still see the basic drive as anger --but I would agree that we should discuss positive things to do with that energy

MASSsedation:

1st of all it is important to understand what anger is ... & how anger is tied to our insecurities ... & understanding our own factual impermanencies ... & how the sense of permanence gives rise to delusion

Cloudburst:

Mass, I don't know about you, but if I can think THAT much, I'm not angry anymore.

KindredfIame:

I dont' know if I agree with that cloud

Cloudburst:

Reb, I think you mentioned "sit, calm down...any special technique?

MASSsedation:

understanding is the gateway to peace Cloud

Azrael 7:

Anger often gives people a feeling of self-righteousness, feeling that in your anger, you're right, and the notion of being wrong just makes you more angry. I think it's best to deal with the anger in

Cloudburst:

True fact, Mass, and I think a LOT, but usually do my best thinking when calm

Azrael 7:

a way that's not connected to what caused it, and deal with the cause of the anger in a calmer rational way.

RebbelleRose:

Uhmm.. find a place that is calming to you.. and sit and relax,soak up the sunshine, the feeling of the water.. etc.. it's very simple.. works really really well.. >

Cloudburst:

Thanks, Reb

KindredfIame:

you might still have that anger.. you jsut aren't thinking about it nearly as much. But as soon as the subject comes up again.. you're angry about it again. Kind of like when talk of an old grudge pops up. You still have that anger.. just now, you're thinking about, which gets you mad.

MASSsedation:

well ...... there is clear thinking (of order) & there is unclear thinking (of disorder)

Nestor11:

ah more psycho-babble

Cloudburst:

Flame, I think that's exactly the situation we're trying to figure out how to avoid. What if you thought about the old grudge and it didn't bring back anger any more?

KindredfIame:

then it wouldn't be an old grudge anymore

Cloudburst:

RIGHT!!!

ViragoWitch:

Folks- how about differentiating between simple anger and complex anger

Nestor11:

that is a good start VW

Red Deer:

nes... if being able to think/talk about cognitive and emotional process will not help to deal with them, what do you suggest?

VW... both of those would be pretty simple to me... I find nothing complex about being angry over a loved one's murder

ViragoWitch:

Let's put it this way..chance are you'd forgive and forget about the window

KindredfIame:

true

ViragoWitch:

Complex was a poor word choice- how about temporary vs. permanent?

Red Deer:

probably, but would also assure the kid had an appropriate consequence

Nestor11:

well take the fact that inorder for the craft to survive and prosper that each of us has to do more studying and research and teaching and then aiding our brothers and sister --that is a practical approach

KindredfIame:

yes, but that should be happening anyhow.. not just because of anger.

Nestor11:

in other word translate the energy of our anger into the strenght of our faith and abilities

Red Deer:

and I believe at the core of that study, research and teaching is the admonition to "Know Thyself"?

KindredfIame:

We need to teach eachother to keep our trtaditions alive.. not to get back at people whom we do not care for.

Cloudburst:

It is in mine, RD

Red Deer:

aye knidred

KindredfIame:

One way I've found to get rid of the ENERGY anger rouses is to get involved in the community.

Nestor11:

and then Red Deer the Greek held that after "Knowing Thyself" it was necessary to demonstrate thru actions that you had mainfested that gnosis or knowledge

KindredfIame:

Join a local group that does thing to help out.. show people you aren't "evil" they'll leave you alone eventually.. too many people will like you for them to want to cause any trouble

Red Deer:

ah, but how do we know ourselves except through experience topped with reflection and conversation?

which is what I think all this psycho-babble is an attempt at

Cloudburst:

Thanks, RD. "Psychobabble" has its place

Nestor11:

besides those two methods - one of the fuctions of "organized religion" in pagan societies was to have the person "experience"

ViragoWitch:

So, sometimes your inner child will tell you "I made a poopy in my diaper" and you need to change her/him.

KindredfIame:

haha

Nestor11:

the reality of it thru mystery religions and rituals

Red Deer:

rofl

MASSsedation:

RD ...... can you provide a more solid foundation for solving the problem of our own violent actions .......

KindredfIame:

mystery religions? that kind of makes out belief system sound like a fad

Nestor11:

you might want to try ritual as a gateway to knowledge

Red Deer:

my first belief, MASS, is to eliminate our own violent actions

Cloudburst:

Actually, Nes, we were starting to talk about appropriate ritual actions...

Nestor11:

Kindredflame - accutually you should look at the Eleusian mysteries for over a thousand years of civilizing and soicital imporvemtn

Cloudburst:

Does anyone else have anything to add to the magickal recommendations?

Red Deer:

Mystery Religions were NOT a fad

Azrael 7:

Somethings exist better in mystery, shadows disappear when you shed light on them.

Nestor11:

and the Craft at its core is an Mystery Religion

Red Deer:

<--- asks the Lady and Lord to help me use and release my anger, without being blinded by it

and to make the release complete

Cloudburst:

Any action connected with that, RD?

KindredfIame:

yes.. but the way you stated it, it sounded as if people should flock to paganism merely to "find themselves" when a self-help class can do that for only $500

Red Deer:

grounding

Cloudburst:

Me too.

MASSsedation:

Red ...... violence currently is a very real part of being a human being ....... you can not simply cut that part from us and remain whole .... the only dissolution to violence is through understanding

Azrael 7:

In my opinion, what you pay for often costs more than what you get.

Red Deer:

you put words in my mouth MASS. I never said not to understand the impulses... I said to eliminate the actions

Nestor11:

hmmm --really don't know too many self-resepcting pagans who would offer course like that nor do I know many pagan who have the lack of self-respect to take them Kindred

KindredfIame:

Paganism should be about a belif system that you live and abide by.. not something you go to for easy answers

Cloudburst:

Here's another for the collection: Best priestess I know suggests writing down the whole sorry saga in water-soluble ink, preferably on biodegradable toiet paper, and letting it out into running water

MASSsedation:

understanding require alot of energy & being sensitive to the flow of our feelings.

ViragoWitch:

I like that one, Cloud

Red Deer:

kewl Cloud... and so environmental

Azrael 7:

Paganism doesn't have easy answers, it has answers, but if it's one worth getting it won't be easy.

KindredfIame:

And yes, i realize that not mayn apgans would do that, I'm not saying that.. I'ms aying people in general

MASSsedation:

Red ..... i have not put words in anyones mouth; i'm only responding to how i'm interpreting what you are trying to convey.

Nestor11:

what about I am angery about what they said about our history and the ancient rituals - so I am going to dig and find out the truth about the actual event and then tell others in the community --that is positive

KindredfIame:

no, getting involved in the community has nothing to do with bashing..it jsut has to do with putting negitive energy to good use.. what you were asking about beforehand

Red Deer:

yes Nestor, and I undertake the same work without the anger... which, for me, makes it far more enjoyable

Nestor11:

DR we do it because we are interested --but the anger can serve well as a pump priming for many

Cloudburst:

Me too, RD. I try to find the back of the anger (frustration that so many people don't know, probably) and work to solve THAT.

Nestor11:

let it motive you

KindredfIame:

agreed Nestor

Cloudburst:

Good example, actually, for what I was saying without an example earlier

Arcadia:

<-----likes a challenge, especially when proving I am right!

MASSsedation:

Red .... we will never eliminate violent actions if we are continiously choosing to be cought in the current cycle of conditioning ..... tradition ...... thought based knowledge.

Red Deer:

???

KindredfIame:

I don't think he's advocating a fight.. merely educating the uneducated about different cultures that have different beleif systems

KindredfIame:

correct me if I'm wrong

Nestor11:

and espeically educating ourself and the rest of our community

KindredfIame:

yeah.

Nestor11:

we start here at home and get it together before we take it on the road

Arcadia:

agreed Nes

KindredfIame:

also agreed.. if you don't know what you're talking about.. it's only going to hurt your case.. not help it.

Nestor11:

it means hard work and serious effort -- which can be fun at times too

Arcadia:

10:15 and all well

KindredfIame:

but when it isn't.. that anger that is built up can serve as an extra resrve of feul to keep you going.. correct Nestor?

Nestor11:

and yes --I am talking about a 'positive pagan work-ethic"

KindredfIame:

haha

Red Deer:

<--- would personally prefer NOT to be fuelled, over the long haul, with something so negative

Nestor11:

thats right Kindred

Red Deer:

as anger

KindredfIame:

there's always going to be anger.. you just have to put it to positve means.. hence.. getting involved in the struggle

Cloudburst:

10:15 indeed. Probably time to say this class is officially over, but I hope we keep thinking about the issues...

Nestor11:

energy is energy Red Deer --take it in what ever form and convert it to something to help us all

Cloudburst:

Nes, we were talking about the converting

Red Deer:

isn't that rather like saying the end justifies the means, Nestor?

KindredfIame:

there's a qoute from Witche's VOice that I love- "etither stay in the closet till they come for you, or get out there and fight for your rights!"

Arcadia:

can I stop logging now?

Red Deer:

Logs OFF

Cloudburst:

Sure, ARc

Red Deer:

Thanks loggers

Nestor11:

Sometime that is the reality of the world Red Deer

Red Deer:

and Thanks CLOUD! for a thought-provoking discussion.

Cloudburst:

Thanks, everybody! Another humdinger of a discussion

KindredfIame:

definatly!

Nestor11:

we live 'in' the world NOT seperated from it

Arcadia:

Yeah Cloud!!!! great discussion

KindredfIame:

thanks... I'm glad I made it to this one!

Nestor11:

YES --Great Job Cloudburst and Red Deer