Mabon Facilitator : FireHeart Date : 14 September 1997

KK Hill:
who's the teacher.Red?

Red Deer:
our very own FireHeart will get us STARTED in a discussion of Mabon... and then we'll discuss out little witchy-butts off, right?

FireHeart:
I certainly hope so.

TaoSpirit:
Announcement to all Hungry Witches: anybody who wants recipe for Equinox Cakes (they're full of apples, cinnamon, nutmeg ), IM me with your email. Otherwise, stand back, cause I'm gonna be a baking fool this week {g}

FireHeart:
Tao, if you're cooking, I'm coming to visit

Red Deer:
If I may have everyones' attention, I'll do the etiquette thing and give the floor to our facilitator for her topic
Before we begin, please consider leading a session of Wicca 101... everyone has something to offer! To volunteer, E-mail me: HUZD95A@prodigy.com
1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.
2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.
3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).
4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?
With that, I pass the besom to FireHeart, who is our facilitator for the topic of Mabon

FireHeart:
Okay, first of all, I'm typing this in real time since I am computer illiterate and have not figured out Macros. Please bear with me. And next, thanks for coming and listening.

FireHeart:
We will be discussing Mabon which occurs this year on Sept 21st. It is also known as the Autumn Equinox and is the 2nd of the three Harvest Sabbats. It is also known as a lesser Sabbat. The Full Moon closest to Mabon (this year, Sept 16th) is known as the Harvest moon since farmers continued to harvest their crops by the light of the full moon. Seeds are also collected at this time as they contain the spirit of nature - life. Mabon is the time when light and darkness are equal length and dark will now begin to conquer the light. It is a time for deep thoughts, introspection, preparing for spiritual and physical well being and gathering wisdom. Mabon is named after the Welsh/Celtic God, "the great son" or "the great hunter" In the universal story, Mabon ap Modron, meaning "son of the mother" with Modron as Mother Earth and Mabon as "the son of light".
Three days after being born to Modron, Mabon disappears. Modron is quite distraught, but Mabon reappears in the Spring, after learning the wisdom of the ancient animals - stag, blackbird, owl, eagle and salmon. He has been safe all along in Modron's otherworld, her womb. He was nurtured until he could emerge powerful enough to take over the darkness once again with enough wisdom and strength to plant the new seeds of life. Mabon is often depicted with mourning - Demeter for Persephone (Greek Myth), Cybele for Attis (Phyrgia), Astarte for Adonis (Syria) and Isis for Osiris (egypt). Also in Greek culture, the Eleusiaian Mysteries of Lefe and Death Began it's nine day celebration on Mabon, or the Autumn Equinox.
The traditional colours of Mabon are gold, russet, scarlet, yellow and brown. The traditional foods are corn, root vegetables, squash, Apples, breads, grains, seeds and nuts. Wine and Ale are also traditional drinks. Mabon is often celebrated with a Harvest Festival that include dishes with the above foods and ritual of burning a straw effigy to symbolize the ending of the harvest. My personal celebration of Mabon includes mulching my garden, thanking all the plants and flowers for their abundance, gathering surplus garden bounty to give to those not quite so fortunate and having a Thanksgiving feast for my friends. My favorite dishes to serve include traditional dishes such as apple pie, cornbread, wine, squash and sweet potatoes
Okay, that's a bit of history of Mabon/Autumn Equinox. And the floor is now open for everyone to share their ideas of what Mabon is to them and their ways of celebrating. The floor is now open for discussion of Mabon.

PAniteowl:
Well, Fire ..that was a good rendering of the Celtic perspective {G}

Arcadia:
great job Fire!!!!!!!!!!

Red Deer:
excellent Fire... thanks for getting us started

pixielite:
good job

LadyGrnEyess:
wonderful Fire {S}

PAniteowl:
So, don't forget the Colcannon {potato dish of course}

Flidais:
great job Fire

Red Deer:
I'd like to make a comment about Tradition...

WICCA101:
Very nicely done Fire

FireHeart:
Indeed, I am quite influenced by the Celts, PA, that is why I would like to hear other's beliefs and way of celebrating

Red Deer:
with regards to corn (you know how I'm a stickler for detail)

FireHeart:
go for it RD

Elenya:
Great info, Fire

melilot:
{s cornholio}

TaoSpirit:
I've noticed lots of people here celebrate sabbats at different times. What's everybody's take on that? Any time Sunday? Before and after? What are all your preferences?

Red Deer:
authors of the caliber of the Farrars (and others) cite corn as the ritual grain of Mabon...even in ancient times...but there was no corn in Europe until after Columbus

Norda:
Mabon for me is an occasion to "clean house" as it were and prepare for Winter....bidding the old year goodbye on Samhain

melilot:
I personal thinkit depends on what is happening in your area

PAniteowl:
heheheh ... knew you were gonna say that RD {G}

Red Deer:
Rye was the ancient grain of the season...

melilot:
Red Deer think it don't live in Europe

Red Deer:
replaced by corn in the last several hundred years

FireHeart:
Tao, actually, the old Celtic way is to celebrate from the eve before the holiday to the eve of the Holiday.

Red Deer:
meli, not contradicting use of corn anywhere... just saying the ancient Greeks, Romans and Celts didna have it

PAniteowl:
It was also a time for culling the herds ... slaughtering and storing meats, for they could not feed and grain too many animals over the winter months

melilot:
they didn't have electricity either

Red Deer:
aye Fyre

FireHeart:
So since Mabon is Sept 21st it would be celebrated from eve on the 20th to the eve of the 21st

Warmuth:
I think it is important to celebrate each holiday with person ritual on the evening of the date....but group Ritual is whenever you can get everyone together

Arcadia:
agreed Warm

TaoSpirit:
Yeah, that's my usual pattern, Fire, thanks

FireHeart:
Owl, that is right.

TaoSpirit:
True, Warm

Warmuth:
I thought the equinox was the 22 this year

Elenya:
Aye, Warmuth

FireHeart:
Warmuth, actually during research I found sources that supported both the 21st and the 22nd

melilot:
I find it very amusing that most of the smaller communities in my area hold "harvest festivals" this time of year yet do not realize why

Red Deer:
I believe it's after midnight on the night of the 21st, so by solar calendar the 22nd...

TaoSpirit:
Actually, I had the 22 down, too

Red Deer:
lunar, we'd start celebrating the 21st eve rather than the 20th

TaoSpirit:
That's partly what I was after, RD, thanks

FireHeart:
Gee, my first class and I'm found wrong. (G)

TaoSpirit:
{-- getting confused

PAniteowl:
heheheh... get used to it Fyre .. we've all been counted wrong at some time {G}

Arcadia:
only goes to show that there still exist many "Pagan" rituals that are adhered to by the public , Meli

FireHeart:
Tao, if Mabon is on the 22nd, then we would begin celebrating the eve before which would be the 21st and continue celebrating thru the eve on the 22nd

Warmuth:
I like that idea...a LONG, LONG party

FireHeart:
actually celebrating usually started at sundown
What are some dishes that you prepare to celebrate Mabon?

Red Deer:
baking time!

WiseWitch:
MEAT!

PAniteowl:
Ham & cabbage {G}

Red Deer:
bread... whole grain

Elenya:
apple bread, pumpkin bread, acorn squash, cider, etc

melilot:
you all is making me hungry

Red Deer:
blackberry wine

TaoSpirit:
{--will just start now, ok? {g}

WiseWitch:
any wine.....

TaoSpirit:
Especially with the wine part

melilot:
I've been in a bread making mood for two week first tree started turning two weeks ago think there is a connection

FireHeart:
Apples are considered to be very symbolic of Mabon and are often used in most of the dishes such as stuffing for turkeys or hens, wild rice dishes, breads and of course desert

Red Deer:
{-- is starting Friday, 3 days before {g}

Warmuth:
Pork (because of slaughter time)

WiseWitch:
Meli, I'd say that Lammas is more a 'bread' holy day....
yeah, Warmuth!

melilot:
but the weather is more towards baking now

Red Deer:
personally would say both holidays WW

FireHeart:
I usually make a crown pork roast with a wild rice with apple stuffing

Red Deer:
Lammas the sacrifice of the grain

PAniteowl:
Um ... this was also the time that smoke houses, or pits were constructed to preserve the meats

Red Deer:
Mabon the final harvest

TaoSpirit:
Any ideas from people like us who live in hot areas? The idea of all these harvest foods is sometimes a wee bit much for my tummy when it's still nearly 100 degrees out. Any ideas?

WiseWitch:
Cold cuts [g]

Elenya:
And don't forget wreath making - creating the shape of a circle out of sun dried flowers and herbs - bringing the harvest indoors

Red Deer:
corn pudding

FireHeart:
Mabon is actually the 2nd harvest, with Samhain being the final harvest

PAniteowl:
yes, El!!

melilot:
turn on the air conditioner to sub zero fyre

FireHeart:
El, also, the creating of a circle of grains and seeds upon the earth to feed the animals and the birds

Cloudburst:
Obviously, I missed something while bumped{G}

Red Deer:
aye

Elenya:
Aye Fire

TaoSpirit:
LOL, mel

PAniteowl:
the herbs were gathered at this time too, to dry in the house over the winter months .. and seeds were preserved for next planting

Warmuth:
making new brooms

Elenya:
You make apple dolls, PA?

FireHeart:
If you had to choose one thing which makes Mabon special for you, what would you choose?

PAniteowl:
oh my ... haven't done that in sooo long El {G} ... gonna do one tonite {G}

TaoSpirit:
Cool idea, Fire

Red Deer:
rest...

TaoSpirit:
Warm, do you have a good info source on making brooms?

Elenya:
Amazing how many things my mom taught me she hadn't a clue where it came from

Red Deer:
almost anyone rural knew the times... because they are just the seasons

TaoSpirit:
{s}

melilot:
but don't you find that's the case with most of the southerns el {G}

FireHeart:
Making the circle of grains and seeds upon the earth for the animals and birds makes Mabon very special for me as I am giving of the bounty of my garden (and other's) to the Mother's animals

Red Deer:
my grannies and mom were the same...they just did it in a Christian context

WiseWitch:
Mother's animals been feasting on my garden all year long....

Warmuth:
It is the beginning of the time when the Goddess begins to go to the underworld and gives care of her children (us) up to Her Consort

Elenya:
more than you would realize, meli {vbeg}

Cloudburst:
Mine too, WW - mainly the Smother's slugs{G}

melilot:
don't I know it el {EG}

Cloudburst:
Mother's{G}

PAniteowl:
This was also the time to trade and get weapons ready for the hunting parties {G}

FireHeart:
I didn't know that Owl

Warmuth:
yes, PA...all those Manly things

Red Deer:
but don't be hunting ME {g}

WiseWitch:
why would we hunt YOU? Targe won the contest.....

FireHeart:
I would be interested to know what kinds of rituals everyone performs in honor of Mabon

TaoSpirit:
Fire, it's a call to get back into business again . . . summer months, flitting about--all that's done, time to harvest and get busy

PAniteowl:
yep, Fire ... for the birthing of the wild ones was spring .. so they would supplement their winter stores by hunting

melilot:
ahhhhhhhhhhh RD otto be hunting you with bow you make good eating sorry hon

Red Deer:
I know deer makes good eating {g}

FireHeart:
makes sense, Owl

Red Deer:
I love venison too... just please don't hunt me personally

FireHeart:
Does anyone have anything more to add?

Warmuth:
deer is only good if hit with a truck...quick kills make for tender meat

Flidais:
nahhh

PAniteowl:
Now, to go strictly Celtic .. I don't think Mabon was a Sabbat .. am I right WW?

WiseWitch:
Right, Owl. Not Celtic. And more recent than the Fire/Cross Quarter festivals.

PAniteowl:
So who brought it into the Wiccan Trads WW?

WiseWitch:
Mabon was 'established' after permanent settlements, after the festivals based on herd stuff.

Red Deer:
none of the solar nodes were documented as Celtic festivals

Warmuth:
The "Minor" Sabbats were always practiced......Longest day, Longest night..equanixes

WiseWitch:
It MAY have come from the Greeks, or the Norse. I'm not sure.

Red Deer:
Wicca is heavy with Norse influence as well

FireHeart:
WW, I believe it came from the Greeks.

WiseWitch:
No, Warmuth - you can't tell those without settlements. Unlike knowing when the herds started having young

Red Deer:
Asatru very into...
yes you can WW...they have stellar and solar recognition... all the circles are aligned to them

Warmuth:
I disagree....it depends on where you live...

Red Deer:
which covers about 6 to 9 thousand years

WiseWitch:
RD, you need set reference points - circles came AFTER settlements

PAniteowl:
WW ... do you really think so???

WiseWitch:
Warmuth, if you are nomadic then you don't 'live' anywhere.
Yes, owl, I do.

Red Deer:
circles came BEFORE Celts... so to argue they didn't know them doesn't sound kosher

PAniteowl:
Most ethnic cultures have some form of "circle" dance ..

Red Deer:
{--sees not celebrating as very different from not knowing

PAniteowl:
it is a natural way of gathering

Warmuth:
just as they were able to tell direction....they followed the Sun and Moon

WiseWitch:
RD, the circles weren't Celtic. Picts, etc, who WERE settled.

Norda:
hmmmmmm....

WiseWitch:
but warmuth, you can't tell where the sun is rising /settling relative to the day before if you are on the move.

Warmuth:
they were nomadic....not stupid

PAniteowl:
hmmmm ... WW ... the Celtic Art is full of circle symbology ... I'm having a problem with your interpretation

Red Deer:
on foot you don't really move fast enough to hinder that WW... and if your trail is cyclic, which most were, you could spot them

WiseWitch:
Owl, yes, but those are later. Not from when the tribes moved across europe

PAniteowl:
Why would their art not mimic their practice?

Warmuth:
Circles are in all cultures

Red Deer:
help here WW... to WHICH migrations do you refer?

WiseWitch:
Circles are fine, but later. Not from nomadic times.

PAniteowl:
WW .. the celtic art is said to be from the 3 millenium bce

Red Deer:
and circles were common 6th millennium BC - in western europe

WiseWitch:
Celts are generally seen as starting out about 1500 BCE, Owl.

WiseWitch:
Right, RD - pre-Celtic.

Red Deer:
deriving from the Urnfield cultures which went back to 16000 BC

WiseWitch:
from settlements that were pre, not proto, Celtic

Cloudburst:
Are we talking about circles in art or circles as in Circles? Not the same thing, IMHO

PAniteowl:
oh ... now I understand where you're going {G} ... I'm still going back before "Celts" were the terminology {G}

Red Deer:
never the less, WW... which movements do you refer to?

WiseWitch:
RD, I mean when the proto-Celtic tribes started moving out from the Causus mts

PAniteowl:
you're talking of the Gaels?

WiseWitch:
I'm talking the Celts, 'concurring' Europe thru use of horse-drawn vehicles [g]

WiseWitch:
Celts were the hot-rodders of the ancient world

PAniteowl:
LOL

WiseWitch:
While tribes are on the move, you're gonna see holidays saying 'Gosh, it's getting really dark' and then "Hey, it's getting light again!". Samhain and Imbolg. Not - "hey, it's darkest!" Some things you CAN tell on the road, some you can't

Red Deer:
I disagree WW...

PAniteowl:
WW .. don't forget, it was the responsibility of the shamans to watch the stars and know that ...

Red Deer:
those folk lived stable nomadic lives for millenia before they migrated...

WiseWitch:
okay, RDie - how would you tell?

WiseWitch:
darn screen freezes....

Red Deer:
they did cyclic migrations which would have allowed them to recognize...

Warmuth:
All I know is...coming from the Mabinogion frame...where we found out about most our stories....particular attention is paid to the equinoxes and solstices

PAniteowl:
same as we can right now, WW ... when the constellations are near the horizon ...

Red Deer:
in the same way you would in a stable landscape... you're in the same part of your circle every year at the same time, and you see

WiseWitch:
Mabinogion was written down about 900 CE

PAniteowl:
Don't you think the tribes followed the game trails too??

Warmuth:
It is STILL about the ONLY FRAME OF REFERENCE for our stories

Red Deer:
yes WW?

WiseWitch:
But why would you CARE until you had agriculture and not herds, RD?

Red Deer:
balance WW... everything in its balance

WiseWitch:
Yes, PA - but more important to hunters is the cycle of the herds, the 'cross quarters' not the solar/ag cultures

Red Deer:
and we'd want to recognize it

FireHeart:
although Mabon is a harvest festival, the Autumn Equinox was still the time of equal light and dark. The beginning of the winter. Times to prepare for the months of darkness

Red Deer:
if folk KNEW the days went to longest, then to shortest, they'd KNOW there we days of equality between...and look for them

FireHeart:
Good Point, RD

Red Deer:
I think we sell our ancestors short with a belief that they never searched out more than they needed to know

WiseWitch:
While I feel that you'd just note what was up with the herds and follow them.

PAniteowl:
yes, WW, but the herds followed the food ... and as the winter came on, the grazing became more difficult ... you didn't have to farm to learn from the animals

Red Deer:
where in that picture would you develop arts? or, at least, artisanship?

WiseWitch:
In your copious free time, RDie [g]

PAniteowl:
ahhh ... to teach the young {G}

Warmuth:
I think deep winter was pretty "free" time

PAniteowl:
to map the land

WiseWitch:
So, owl, when the cows/goats dried up you'd move to the valleys.

FireHeart:
Also, one point that I think everyone is forgetting is that these were ancient religions. These times meant something to someone somewhere and have been passed on down thru the centuries

PAniteowl:
yep

TaoSpirit:
Good point, Fire

WiseWitch:
not 'when the days and nights do thus' but "oh, all the calves are weaned. Time to move!"

Warmuth:
I don't really care what it meant to them...I KNOW what it means to me
FireHeart:
And that is the most important thing Warmuth

PAniteowl:
yep, WW .. but I'll bet you it coincided with the solar paths {G}

Red Deer:
{--I'll still find that too reductionistic of our species search for knowledge WW

Cloudburst:
Which doesn't necessarily mean they'd make large community holidays about them. I liked what you said earlier about not celebrating doesn't=not knowing

Red Deer:
aye Cloud... even not celebrating doesn't mean not observing, perhaps just not recording - for whatever reason

WiseWitch:
You're entitled to your opinion, RD. [g]

Red Deer:
aye, and you yours {{{Witchie}}}

FireHeart:
I think that is the real beauty of our religion, we can all have our own opinions and share without feeling wrong

Elenya:
and even if he's not entitled, he'll take one, WW {vbeg}

WiseWitch:
LOL El

PAniteowl:
OK, for the sake of flight of fancy {G} .. the common habits of a tribe for their survival ... has that become, in retrospect, "Ritual" ?

FireHeart:
Every Sabbat, holy day, festival, etc means something special to each individual.

Red Deer:
well, you know, opinions are like ani...
aye Fire

WiseWitch:
Owl, in my grove, anything we do 3 years running is 'ritual tradition'

Elenya:
good question, Owl

WiseWitch:
But we have short attentions spans....[g]

PAniteowl:
So, if we all got together at the same time each year .. would we tell stories??? Would we have lots of Food??? {G}

Red Deer:
the magickal secular of the past becomes the ritual of today?

FireHeart:
Owl, I think alot of the things done for Mabon, were common sense things that needed to be done for that time of the year, such as trading, hunting, harvesting

Warmuth:
Maybe we should modernize the festivals and Have a celebration for BASEBALL season,,,FOOTBALL season BASKETBALL season..HOCKEY season...like we don't already

WiseWitch:
Da Bulls!

Red Deer:
icky poo, Warmuth

Elenya:
we have for two years running, Owl {g}

melilot:
season's of the balls warm?

PAniteowl:
heheheh ... yep El {G}

Red Deer:
I thought those were HEATHEN celebrations {g}

Warmuth:
All Hail the sacred puck!!

FireHeart:
Okay, does anyone have anything else to add to subject of Mabon?

PAniteowl:
LOL

Medbh:
Don`t forget soccer {G}

PAniteowl:
oh, sorry Fire .. I guess I got side tracked {G}

Red Deer:
Thanks for promoting a GREAT discussion Fire

FireHeart:
No? Then I declare this class over. Pass the Wine, please.

PAniteowl:
GOOD JOB FIREHEART!!! I thoroughly enjoyed it!!!

Elenya:
\_/} passes cup to Fire

TaoSpirit:
{applause and thanks to Fire}

FireHeart:
Sigh. Thanks El. I do need this so bad!

Morvan:
thanks for a good job Fire

Thanks Fire, gave me a lot to think about
PAniteowl:

Now Fire .. it wasn't that bad, was it??? {G}
WiseWitch:
later, darlings!

Warmuth:
I flip my bick in appreciation, fire

FireHeart:
Thanks everyone. I must say that I did not feel qualified to open any discussion and want to thank everyone for listening anyway and participating.

melilot:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{fire}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

PAniteowl:
{{{{{{{{FIRE}}}}}}}}}}}

Flidais:
you did a fine job fire

Red Deer:
you did a great job for someone "qualified" Fire... being "unqualified" would make it all the more impressive {g}

PAniteowl:
Y'know people ... we're beginning to write our own Trad here {G}

FireHeart:
Thanks Red Deer

Warmuth:
WHERE'S THE MEAD

TaoSpirit:
Apple wine right here! {g}

PAniteowl:
El .. did you make the apple dollies with the corn husk bodies?

TaoSpirit:
pretty little rosy apples on the label . . . seems a shame

to uncork it
Elenya:

Hadn't thought of that PA, we used fabric to make "dresses", but husks make more sense this time of year

Warmuth:
Mead, Mead Mead.....Drink of the Gods...and Goddesses

fidgettt:
I must say hats off to you all ...kept me in an a stupor the whole conversation!!!! Didn't want to say anything for fear of my ignorance on the subject overwhelming the rest of you {VBG}

Elenya:
\_/} \_/} \_/} \_/} \_/} mead all around

Medbh:
Thanks El :)

WereWuff:
ditto,fidgett.......

Warmuth:
THREE CHEERS FOR EL

PAniteowl:
hehehe .. fidgett ... what did you expect in a Wicca 101 class?

melilot:
LOL fidgett I never let ignorance stop me we all have to learn somehow and the only dumb question I know of is the one not asked

Warmuth:
I'll drink to that!!

Medbh:
Me too :)

fidgettt:
guess I will make a note of that for future reference!!!!! lol

Morvan:
War, you will drink to anything

fidgettt:
sorry melilot I must disagree there are a lot of STUPID questions lol

Medbh:
War you would have loved where I was this weekend then.{G}

melilot:
nope fidgett there are just some not worthy of answering {EG}

TaoSpirit:
MP, all. Good class!

FireHeart:
Thanks everyone. Got to run. BB and MP

Medbh:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Fire}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}MP

Arcadia:
MP and BB room, have a bright and beautiful evening one and all