Chat Host:

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA 101!

TONIGHT HERNE WILL BE LEADING A DISCUSSION OF RG VEDA.

LadySong:

{settling down in her seat}

Chat Host:

Please keep all greetings, farewells and side conversations in IM during class.

DISRUPTERS WILL BE WARNED ONCE AND THEN EXCLUDED.

In case of disaster {g} could one or two of you who plan on attending the entire class please log as back up?

Burningwolf:

{... ... ..... logging on

Chat Host:

WITH THAT HERNE, YOU HAVE THE FLOOR

Typo Demon:

{loggin

HERNE:

Blessed Be all.

Tonights presentation was originally scheduled to be a class on the Rg Veda, presented by one of the Bibliophiles in the on line reading group. But with that persons mysterious absence and the dire possibility due to lack of volunteers stepping forward to host tonight's presentation, rather than to see you all go without your Sunday night class in Wicca 101 I have stepped forward again to volunteer my services and scant insights rather than to see you all so disappointed that you would cry

Red Deer:

{--- logger

HERNE:

your eyes out and get no sleep at all tonight from the great sadness in your hearts.

LadySong:

{G}

so, what's the class on?

Burningwolf:

your so thoughtful

HERNE:

Luckily for you the topic in question generally speaking, the Vedas, those ancient spiritual texts of India, or Shastra as they are called are not altogether unfamiliar to me so that even upon such lamentably short notice I was able to throw together a lecture of several hours that touched upon the main theme of the Vedas and several essential elements of Vedic thought. These I will present during the course of tonight's discussion opening the class to questions and comments as we go along. We begin. In the 1960's and 70's people of the Western World flocked in droves to the Mystical East, there at the feet of mystic yogi's and great sages to drink deeply of the nectarian philosophies of the ancient land, watered by the Ganges. In smoke filled temples they worshipped at strange altars, immersed themselves in the sacred Ganges and prayed ancient prayers to the moon and the sun. They learned many things these brave adventurers, crusaders if you will, how to regulate the breathing awake the serpent power that coiled around their spine, to open up levels of power and perception by focusing on areas within the body called Chakras, to open up vistas into the universe by opening up their third eye, but one of the most important things that these Westerners learned was that primitive i. e. not being technologically advanced, does not mean that one is ignorant, at least in all things. I'd like to open the discussion first off before the presentation on the Vedas with a question. "Why is it that so many people from the most technologically advanced society on the globe sought elsewhere, outside of their own culture and society for meaning."

Taoism:

Its failure was its Europeanization.

HERNE:

Back peddle, are you saying Tao that Christianity sold out?

Taoism:

It failed to assimilate itself with any native cultures.

FalconsWind:

it actually didn't so much overcome as it did assimilate

Taoism:

Herne- Of course. The missionaries aligned themselves with colonial and imperialist policies. The Jesuits were in fact the only missionary group to assimilate themselves.

HERNE:

By Europeanization, do you mean the adoption of the Greek Atomists and Roman world view?

ninety one:

to Christians, selling out would be assimilation.

Taoism:

in China and especially Japan.

Herne- The fragmented world view... yes in many instances.

ninety one:

or the other way around, rather.

HERNE:

Bingo, Christianity had not provided spiritual guidance or insights

Taoism:

Has anyone read Chinua Achebe?

HERNE:

They were the horse lords, a fierce and warlike people that swept over the ancient world, releasing a white horse to gallop freely over the world and all the land it wandered over they

Red Deer:

and the Jesuits worked miracles, till the church proper put them in their place

FalconsWind:

there is nothing original about Christianity it is all borrowed or stolen from native religious practices and rituals

melilott:

i would be more interested in what those people found in their search than the reason for that search each person has their own reasons for searching for guidance

Taoism:

Herne- Originally it was a holistic RELIGION... it was Pauline but it now finds itself in an Augustinian tailspin. A tailspin it has been on for centuries.

anony:

When you say Christianity has failed, what do you mean by "failed"?

HERNE:

Well mel, I was one of um, see me after class

Taoism:

Falcons- The resurrection is original and the definition of Christianity.

CynaraMac:

Agreed Mel

Red Deer:

Excuse me, I thought we were gonna discuss the Vedas?

HERNE:

They were the horse lords, a fierce and warlike people that swept over the ancient world, releasing a white horse to gallop freely over the world and all the land it wandered over they

Taoism:

Without the Resurrection Christianity would just be another cult... long forgotten.

HERNE:

Red Deer, what's a Veda?

melilott:

isn't the class about the Veda's not about why people searched

LadySong:

Aye... I have my theories on that Tao

Taoism:

Herne- It was the Aryan Religious Writings in Ancient India.

FalconsWind:

no there is an ancient Egyptian religion before the popular pantheon that told of a resurrection also.

Poizon Ivy:

have you heard of Zoroaster, tao

FalconsWind:

or perhaps it might have been roman i forget

HERNE:

What does the word Veda mean?

Taoism:

POIZON- Of course... the founder of Zoroastrianism... Good vs Evil. Persian

HERNE:

They were the Aryans, a term used now to designate them as a particular people but with a much deeper meaning. Where they came from is still a matter of

Taoism:

Herne- They came through the Kyber Pass... Indo-European most likely.

HERNE:

scholarly dispute and their origin will probably always be shrouded in the dim mists of time. And so they are a people without any history but the merest scraps that we can discover

Red Deer:

I don't know Herne, other than the proper name of Hindi holy books

HERNE:

Ancient Rome had it's Livy, ancient Greece it's Herodotus but ancient India had no great historian to record it's Vedic period, not because they could not write or keep records,

Veda means Knowledge

CynaraMac:

Maybe the records were destroyed as in Ireland

HERNE:

but because they accepted the origins of their race, their history as it was given in their sacred texts.

Red Deer:

please date the Vedic period, Herne

HERNE:

The Vedas

Taoism:

The Vedas has the Baghavad Gita and Mahabrata and Ramayana in it... does it not?

Prosecutor:

the people of Afghanistan are generally considered to be the Aryan race . .

HERNE:

"Sri bhagavan uvaca, imam vivasvate yogam, proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvan manave praha, manur iksvakave' bravit" ---Bhagavad Gita, Ch 4, Txt 1

Taoism:

The Aryans in TERMS of Ancient India were in fact Indo-Europeans who entered India through the Kyber Pass. They were following their sheep.

LadySong:

ooooooook

FalconsWind:

whoa Herne :}

Taoism:

Where the SHEEP went... they went.

CynaraMac:

Inagadda da vita baby?

LadySong:

and that means?

melilott:

translation please Herne

Taoism:

There religion was very simplistic...

LadySong:

?

HERNE:

That is speculative and by no means universally accepted within the scholarly community Tao

The Blessed Lord said: "I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind... "

LadySong:

Herne ... translate!!!!!!

Taoism:

Herne---Yoga... the DOWNFALL of Hinduism.

Prosecutor:

although it is supported by anthropological evidence, Herne

LadySong:

ok... see it

Prosecutor:

not conclusively, of course

Taoism:

Yes it is.

HERNE:

Is it possible for a god to speak, and the sun hearing to turn and speak to man. Is it myth, is it allegorical or in some deeply meaningful way is it perhaps true? How many of you subscribe to the Gaia hypothesis, how many of you believe that Bhumi, Mother Earth as the Hindus call her is alive and not merely alive but also sentient?

Taoism:

It is generally ACCEPTED that the Aryans entered India through the Kyber Pass but they had no written language upon entering the country.

melilott:

aliens from space coming from the sun maybe

Prosecutor:

not I, Herne

{G}

HERNE:

Tao, hold your comments please

Taoism:

Herne- Certainly not sentient... alive perhaps.

FalconsWind:

i believe that the gods regardless of which faith are interactive with man

Red Deer:

why would you ask Pagans whether it's possible for the gods to do something, Herne?

HERNE:

How many of you Wiccans that call the spirits of fire into your thuribles and candle flames perceive in their dancing brightness a joy?

Taoism:

Red- Being Pagan does NOT denote atheism.

CynaraMac:

Correct Tao

Prosecutor:

just so I'm clear.. I don't mean to be disruptive.. is this a participatory event or a soliloquy..

FalconsWind:

polytheism is far from atheism

Chat Host:

PLEASE hold your comments until Herne calls for discussion or asks for them.

Red Deer:

that's a non-sequiter Tao... I, as a Pagan, can't imagine the Gods being limited

HERNE:

Hard to believe sometimes, so desperately hard to believe that the world has magick and all the universe is in some strange way alive. Coming as we do from a social paradigm that

Taoism:

Red- I never stated that you could.

Herne- Social paradigm?

HERNE:

over the long haul has developed into a view of the world that relegates the deepest meaning to life that it is but the mere combination of molecules, accident and evolution.

Prosecutor:

well.. actually.. if there is more than one god.. then they would, by definition, be limited..

HERNE:

This is what prompted Aleister Crowley to comment that it was somewhat satisfying to be knocked about by a spirit that one had conjured but which one wasn't so sure that he believed in. So desperate is our desire to find that we are something more than the mechanism that we inhabit, to know that we have intrinsic worth

Taoism:

Herne- Many scientists I believe are devout Christians...

HERNE:

other than the several dollars of chemicals that our bodies are composed of.

CynaraMac:

That cheapens the human life,

Taoism:

Are bodies are a series of protein interactions.

Prosecutor:

hmm.. it appears that this is more monologal in nature as opposed to discussion oriented.. so I shall leave you all to your lecture..

HERNE:

excuse me a moment while I change macros

Taoism:

I think its rather arrogant to assume that evolution denotes "atheism"... etc, etc. To associate evolution with the downfall of spirituality is a rather broad statement, that while having merits, is certainly unfair.

Red Deer:

Tao... I don't understand why you keep bringing in atheism

Taoism:

Red Deer- That's what I got from what Herne was trying to say here. Is anyone going to speak?

Red Deer:

We're here to discuss positive religion, not atheism

Taoism:

Red Deer- I also think its unfair to STATE that atheism is negative in nature. I think that's a stereotypical viewpoint.

ninety one:

what is positive religion

Taoism:

Exactly, ninety one

The nature of a RELIGION is totally subjective.

Red Deer:

by positive, I mean religion that supports deity rather than (negative) denies it

motherkatt:

any religion can be positive, it depends on intent

Taoism:

Red- Who is to SAY that is negative?

skyisfalling:

any and everything has both negative and positive

Taoism:

mother- Once again defining a religion as + or - is really unfair since obviously your opinion is biased toward your own faith.

Red Deer:

i made no emotional judgment... just how I qualified the system

melilott:

i would say that xianaity is a negative religion because it teaches it's followers that human nature is wrong

Red Deer:

{--- has nothing against atheists, as I believe in free choice

Taoism:

Red Deer- That in and of itself is an emotional judgment.

motherkatt:

i can see your point Tao

FalconsWind:

what do atheists believe in??

milt:

Well read the news melilot - hard to argue that

Taoism:

melilott- Many would disagree... but of course that is your right. In many cases that is true.

Lionflower:

Is class still going on?

Red Deer:

since when is atheism a religion?

Taoism:

Falcons- The non-existence of a deity.

It is most CERTAINLY a religion.

Chat Host:

Herne went to get different macros... ... ...

Taoism:

No doubt.

LadySong:

good question, RD...

ninety one:

atheists do not believe in believing

FalconsWind:

well if they believe in nothing how can it be a religion??

LadySong:

LOL

Taoism:

Everyone BELIEVES

melilott:

i think it depends on each person to make the choices and to leave it at that

Red Deer:

what do atheists worship, Tao?

Taoism:

Falcon- No one BELIEVES in nothing.

LadySong:

Atheism is a lack of belief... in ANYTHING

or... ok, Tao... a lack of FAITH then if you prefer!

Taoism:

Red- You would have to ask them... LOVE, Happiness, Luck... in fact it is QUITE possible to argue that there is no such THING as atheism.

FalconsWind:

Tao i am not here for a play on words

Taoism:

Lady - Once again there is NO SUCH thing as a lack of faith... everyone has faith in something.

ninety one:

depends on how you define worship

Chat Host:

I though it was just a lack of belief in Deity

FalconsWind:

you know what i am saying

O2BeInCancun:

Tao: It's certainly possible to live a life based only on knowledge that has been tested to some degree...

Taoism:

Falcons- It most certainly is NOT a play on words.

O2- Yup

O2BeInCancun:

That's not belief.

Taoism:

O2- Its a belief in knowledge... in facts.

Red Deer:

Hi O2B

HERNE:

Sorry, got bumped

The Sanskrit word "Veda" means knowledge, and knowledge they contain of a vast scope, touching on things as diverse as the rudimentary theories of rocket propulsion which the Germans assiduously studied in their development of their rocketry and the method of hurly the Bhramastra, a surgical strike weapon equal in effect to our modern day

LadySong:

ok...

HERNE:

nuclear weapons but that could be confined within a stated area of effect as small as within a nut shell or a woman's womb, which thankfully they did not study or could not understand, to a system of medicine called Aryur Veda that is still very much practiced to day, but of all the knowledge that the Vedas contain, that knowledge of

O2BeInCancun:

But "belief" is trusting untestable/provable knowledge, trusting tested knowledge is different.

Taoism:

02- No its not. Everyone has FAITH in something. There is not a human on this world that does not have faith in SOMETHING.

HERNE:

the self and of the self's relationship with the supreme is considered to be Raja Vidyam, the king of all knowledge. Most of the structure and purpose of Vedic society are covered in the bulletin board post, "The Vedas", which will be posted up on the Wiccan BB after this class and which was to be my original presentation.

Taoism:

Lets discuss

HERNE:

so I will not be redundant and cover that information here. I would however like to continue the discussion of the Topic

Taoism:

Good idea

melilott:

so class is over ?

HERNE:

So any of you have any questions concerning the Vedas or Hinduism?

No?

Red Deer:

What is your position on the earthly Soma, Herne?

HERNE:

None?

ninety one:

Taoism- difference between faith and blind faith.

Taoism:

Herne- Do you agree that Yoga and the theory of Karma and Darma was not an impediment on the advancement of Hinduism?

LadySong:

Thank you Herne...

Taoism:

Hinduism certainly wasn't meant to be a universal religion... IMHO

HERNE:

I do not drink the sacred Soma nor aspire for elevation to Indraloka Red Deer

Red Deer:

{--- was referring to what Soma actually is

melilott:

what is the sacred soma and what is Indraloka

ninety one:

do pagans and wiccans believe in something spiritual without worshipping or do they worship as Christians do.

Red Deer:

Soma was the drink of the Vedic Gods...

HERNE:

In Bhagavad Gita, A Vedic literature, it says that those who worship the demigods {of which King Indra} is the chief most, will take birth among them

Taoism:

It is my understanding that because of the stress on yoga that the lower classes in the caste system were NOT given adequate chance to practice such things.

Red Deer:

which would give mortals visions beyond compare, a sacred alteration of consciousness

HERNE:

Speculation lends that Soma may have been the Fly Agaric mushroom, very poisonous but psychoactive

Red Deer:

sounds as though you dismiss that?

HERNE:

All of Vedic society is Yoga

It is a speculation, it could be true

Taoism:

Herne- Yes but the tough regimens that Hindus had to follow certainly allowed the Upper Class more time to practice it.

HERNE:

Wrong Tao

Taoism:

Why?

motherkatt:

so Ayrur Veda is still practiced today, is much known about it?

melilott:

sort of like peyote

HERNE:

According to the principles of Varnashram Dharma, shoveling crap is a religious activity

Yes MotherKatt

Red Deer:

Entire universities are devoted to Ayurvedic Medicine

Taoism:

Herne - Did everyone in the lower classes in Vedic Society shovel crap?

melilott:

don't you mean upper classes tao

Taoism:

melilott- No... I mean lower.

HERNE:

Yoga is not seen as separate from the following of ones prescribed duties, this is called Dharma Yoga, spiritual advancement through work

Tao, the Sudras are highly specialized

motherkatt:

too cool, as a healer, it always interests me to learn about different forms of the healing arts.

HERNE:

Contact your local Hindu community motherkatt

Taoism:

Herne- And was regarded as equal to prayer and meditation?

mother- Are you a doctor?

motherkatt:

no, but a healer nevertheless

Red Deer:

many of we healers are not doctors, Tao

HERNE:

Yes Tao

Taoism:

Red - Homeopathic medicine is increasingly popular.

Herne- I had no idea. Thank you. Are you Hindu?

Red Deer:

as is Ayurvedic, Oriental, etc

HERNE:

I was for a time

Taoism:

Herne - Hindus insist that they believe in a trinity, is this so?

Red- Do they work? or are they more Psychosomatic in nature?

Red Deer:

that depends upon whom you ask, Tao... there is less rigorous scientific study than of western medicine, but that does NOT mean they DON'T

Taoism:

Red- Of course not...

HERNE:

Yes, three aspects of the absolute, the impersonal Bhraman which is all pervading yet inconceivable due to its nature The Param isvara, or the supersoul residing as witness and friend along side the self's soul in everything that lives

Taoism:

Herne- Hmmm. Now Buddhism became all the rage in India because of its ignorance towards the Caste system which it dismissed, am I correct?

HERNE:

And the Bhagavan or theistic aspect, which contains all the others

Taoism:

Its insistence that ANYONE could seek Nirvana. and that material possessions were not all that important.

melilott:

well if you drink enough mushroom juice i think you would obtain nirvana and not care about material possessions

HERNE:

the Hindus Tao, who assign to the Bhudda one of the Incarnations, or Avatars of Vidhnu

Taoism:

You know Four Main Points... Eight Noble Paths while in Hinduism you had to move up the Caste System, etc, etc

Herne- Yet it adopted many Buddhist ideals.

HERNE:

According to the Hindus, Bhudda's purpose was to lead them away from a Hinduism that had become degraded by animal sacrifice

Taoism:

Herne- Nice way to cover their butts, eh.

HERNE:

Though it is atheistic, they worship Bhudda, God, thus the trick

LOL Tao, yup

Taoism:

Herne - Well we just finished a section on Vedic society... I found it interesting.

Its interesting to think that a Catholic HS teaches so in-depth on Vedic Society...

Red Deer:

What's atheistic?

HERNE:

Anyway, your original question concerning the Soma juice lends me to think that you are proposing a Shamanic origin to the Hindu faith?

Red Deer:

Am proposing nothing why do mushrooms mean that the religion had to start shamanistically?

Taoism:

Our history course goes pretty in depth into World Religious History

HERNE:

It is quite interesting Tao, but you cannot understand a faith fully, nor perceive its transformative nature unless you experience it

Taoism:

Herne - Of course not.

Red Deer:

I'd say unless you LIVE it

james ensor:

{--- Wiccan, Taoist (student)

Chat Host:

folks, lets try to hold the side comments till Herne closes the class please. Thanks

LadySong:

{--- thought class had been closed... it was just discussion at this point...

Chat Host:

Herne? Is class over now?

HERNE:

Discussion now Song

Yes Chatty,

Chat Host:

ok... I stand corrected! {G} will butt out NOW!

HERNE:

Any more questions concerning the Vedas or Hinduism?

Chat Host:

Thank you Herne for your offering this evening.

HERNE:

no problem Chatty

Did I miss anyone's questions?

what can we gain from our investigation into the faiths of other lands, in general and in specific the religion of the Hindus which is an ancient living Pagan faith?

melilott:

i want to know more about the mushrooms

james ensor:

mushrooms?

Red Deer:

read R Gordon Wasson - "Soma: The Divine Mushroom" mel

melilott:

thanks red

Red Deer:

an excellent ethnobotanical book... one of the first

HERNE:

Mel, the fly agaric mushroom was poisonous, the priests drank it and the others drank their urine, the priests died but the others had benefit of the psychoactive properties minus the poisons

Red Deer:

no the priests did NOT die...

Raistlin:

They just thought they were dead... like a bad hangover

HERNE:

You drink it Red Deer

Red Deer:

when one takes the mushroom in doses gradually titrated up

Nestor1:

mel also try Robert Graves "What Food the Centuars Eat"

HERNE:

in their lives? What were the factors that led to this massive abandonment of our societal paradigm, what did our society lack that other cultures have half a world away? and what factors contributed or caused the inability of our culture to provide the type of knowledge that so many thirsted for?

Hello?

Brigantia:

hi

melilott:

hello

LadySong:

rhetorical question I thought...

SylverLeaf:

Just thinking, Herne

HERNE:

Hi Brigantia

CynaraMac:

Catholicism?

FalconsWind:

is there a class tonight?

CynaraMac:

Patriarchy?

Taoism:

rhetorical

HERNE:

"Why is it that so many people from the most technologically advanced society on the globe sought elsewhere, outside of their own culture and society for meaning"

melilott:

lack of satisfactory answers to their questions

CynaraMac:

rhetorical

Taoism:

On the Aryan Religious work known as the VEDAS I believe

HERNE:

What were the factors that led to this massive abandonment of our societal paradigm, what did our society lack that other cultures have half a world away could provide, and what factors contributed or caused the inability of our culture to provide the type of knowledge that so many thirsted for?

Mr Charles:

religions not adapting to the change in society

Taoism:

Such as Catholicism

Red Deer:

perhaps folks recognized that technology is not the answer

Taoism:

Who is teaching this class?

Red Deer:

and that technoreligions aren't either

LadySong:

Herne is

FalconsWind:

go Herne go

Chat Host:

Herne is leading the discussion Tao

Taoism:

CHAT - What are his qualifications?

HERNE:

Is that it?

Typo Demon:

simple Techno leaves nothing for the soul

no answers to fill the desire for spiritual understanding

HERNE:

Why the massive flux towards the East during the 60's?

FalconsWind:

technology is a blinding false knowledge

Taoism:

Herne- Because of the rebellion against the patriarchal parental society of that day.

LadySong:

Well... Religion has long been used as a controlling factor...

Taoism:

LadySong- In some instances.

LadySong:

the masses no longer wish to be controlled in such a manner...

CynaraMac:

Go Tao

HERNE:

What is the dichotomy the Christianity presents?

LadySong:

Religion as the modern world has used...

Taoism:

The Catholic Church as well as its Protestant offshoot is traditionally patriarchal.

FalconsWind:

one true way??

Taoism:

Herne- Its universal appeal.

Typo Demon:

dichotomy isn't that what the had to do to Bobbit {G}

HERNE:

Actually I think that what finally started it were the Beatles and Drugs

Typo Demon:

sorry Herne couldn't resist

Taoism:

Christianity was founded upon that ideal. Its basis was to overcome the pagan cults of the Roman Empire. That's was its ultimate goal.

LadySong:

LOL Herne

Taoism:

And its obviously did.

ninety one:

i think what started it was bridey murphy

HERNE:

They were the horse lords, a fierce and warlike people that swept over the ancient world, releasing a white horse to gallop freely over the world and all the land it wandered over they

Taoism:

However its downfall was its assimilation with Constantine.