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Facilitator : ArchDruid Isaac Bonewits Date : 22 October 1995 |
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Facilitator : ArchDruid Isaac Bonewits Date : 22 October 1995 |
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Neopagan Druidism is a religion, a philosophy and a way of life, rooted in ancient soil yet reaching for the stars. Like other new religions throughout history, we are responding to the crises of our times - philosophical, environmental and spiritual. Like many other members of what has come to call itself the "Neopagan" community, we are polytheistic Nature worshipers, attempting to revive the best aspects of the Paleopagan (original) faiths of our predecessors within a modern scientific, artistic, ecological, and holistic context, taking a nondogmatic, pluralistic approach. Like our namesakes, the original Druids, we're people who believe in excellence - physically, intellectually, artistically, and spiritually.
The full name of our organization is Ar nDraiocht Fein: A Druid Fellowship, Inc. The first half, pronounced "arn REE-ocht fane," is Modern Irish for "Our Own Druidism" (or "Druidry" or "Magic"), and that's what we are - an independent tradition ("denomination") of Neopagan Druidism. But since many people have trouble pronouncing and spelling the long name, we usually just call it "ADF".
We're designing and performing powerful magical and religious ceremonies to change ourselves and the world we live in, including regular public worship of the Old Gods and Goddesses, as well as rites of passage (weddings, child blessings, etc.). We're adapting the polytheologies and customs of both the Indo-European Paleopagans and the Neopagan traditions that have been created over the last fifty years. We're researching and expanding sound modern scholarship (instead of romantic fantasies) about the ancient Celts, Norse, Slavs, Balts, Greeks, Romans, Vedics, and other Indo-European peoples, in order to reconstruct as much as possible of what the Old Religions really were. We're working on the development of genuine skills in composition and presentation in the musical, dramatic, graphic, textile, and other arts. We're creating a non-sexist, non-racist, organic, flexible and publicly-accessible religion to practice as a way of life and to hand on to our grandchildren. We're integrating ecological awareness, alternate healing arts, and psychic development into our daily activities. We're holding regional festivals to help our members meet, study, pray, and play together with other like-minded folks. We're actively preparing for the day when Neopagan religions will be part of the mainstream global culture, with large congregations meeting at temples and sacred groves throughout the Western world.
ADF is led by a board of directors, known as the "Mother Grove." The major officers are the Archdruid (x President), the Vice-Archdruid (x Vice-President), the Purse-warden (x Treasurer), Scribe (x Secretary), Preceptor (x Dean), the Registrar (Mailing List Keeper), Chronicler (Head of Publications), and Members' Advocate (Ombuds-person). Over the years, the Mother Grove has included many educated professionals as well as gifted amateurs. The Archdruid is Philip Emmons "Isaac" Bonewits, known in the Neopagan community as an author (Real Magic, The Druid Chronicles Evolved, Authentic Thaumaturgy), editor, teacher, polytheologian, activist, priest, and bard. He has been a Neopagan Druid for over twenty years, having been ordained a priest in the Reformed Druids of North America in 1969.
As a member, you'll be able to communicate with hundreds of others interested in Druidism, organize or join local congregations (known as "groves"), attend regional gatherings, and enroll (if you wish) in the toughest Neopagan leadership training program in existence. The Membership, Networking & Subscription Form that you'll fill out will give you the chance to list all the research areas, arts, skills, and interests you have that you'd enjoy sharing with other members. You'll also be able to tell us what your personal priorities are, how you think ADF should focus its energies, and what sorts of related volunteer work you're ready to perform (no passive observers, please).
You join by filling out our MN&S Form, giving us the information we need to put you in touch with other Druids who share your interests, and enclosing an appropriate donation. We have several membership categories, with different requested donation levels: Regular (1st Class USA, Canada/Mexico) $25 year Regular (Other Foreign, Airmail) $30 year Family (no duplicate pubs) $10 year Exchange Editor (no duplicate pubs) $10 year Prisoner $10 year Supporting $100 year Sustaining $250 year Lifetime Individual $750 Lifetime Family (no duplicate pubs) $250 Subscriptions to The Druids' Progress are now separate from memberships, and cost $15 per year (USA Bulk Rate), $20 per year (FC,Can./Mex.), or $25 per year (Other Foreign, Airmail). Prisoners may subscribe for $10 per year ($15 for FC,Can./Mex.; $20 Foreign/Airmail). Regular, Supporting, Sustaining, or Lifetime Membership entitles you to receive News from the Mother Grove, the ADF Membership Directory, discounts at various ADF sponsored events, and frequent urgings to engage in hard work. Prisoners do not receive the ADF Membership Directory, though they are listed in it and may place notices in the News and form their own groves.
Family Members (whether Regular or Lifetime), and members who are editors of publications with which we exchange subscriptions, do not receive additional mailings of our regular publications, in order to save postage and trees.
Once you've joined ADF, we encourage you to study the books listed in our Members' Guide and Study Manual, join any local grove activities available (or start your own!), and to eventually consider a self-dedication into the First Circle of Druidism.
We only have one person doing all the data entry, so it may take six to eight weeks for your membership kit to arrive.
Non-earmarked donations go into the General Fund. From there, regular percentages are transferred into special funds to pay for publication costs, postage, phone bills, office equipment and supplies, research costs, charitable works, travel expenses, regalia inventory, etc. A Land Fund exists to save money to eventually purchase land and buildings for our own College of Druidism. You can, of course, send us an earmarked donation for the support of any activity or office you wish to give particular assistance to.
ADF is recognized by the Internal Revenue Service of the United States as a "501(c)(3)"tax-exempt organization. Memberships and general donations are fully tax deductible in the USA. Subscriptions to DP, donations for regalia items, donations for attendance at ADF events, or anything else for which you receive a tangible benefit are only partially tax deductible, as explained in the IRS instruction booklets that come with your tax forms. If you would be interested in mentioning us in your will or making a large donation for tax purposes, our Pursewarden would be delighted to hear from you. No Officer of ADF currently receives a salary, though the Preceptor and the Archdruid may eventually. Financial reports are published regularly. Any member willing to travel to Ann Arbor, Michigan may make an appointment with the Pursewarden to see our financial records.
Where did ADF come from?
ADF started in 1983 as a network of independent scholars interested in legitimate research about the ancient Druids and their Indo-European colleagues. It quickly grew into a new Neopagan tradition (denomination), complete with personal and group worship rituals, artistic endeavors, jokes, songs and chants, and a genuine sense of family. In many ways it was an outgrowth of the Reformed Druids of North America, an anarchistic movement begun by college students in the mid-1960's, modified by the experiences of the Neopagan community since (see Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon for details).
Today, ADF is the largest Neopagan Druid organization in the English-speaking world. While there are other Neopagan Druid organizations in existence, by far the largest, best organized, most widely spread, and most active is ADF.
Are you real?
Organizationally, we're as real as any other religious group. We are registered in the state of Delaware as a Nonprofit Corporation and have received recognition of our tax-exempt status from the IRS. We have almost twenty chartered local congregations (or 'groves'), with more on the way in the U. S. and Canada. Appropriate legal and tax status in Canada, Australia and other nations will be obtained as needed.
Historically, there are no 'real' Druids left. The Paleopagan Druids were wiped out centuries ago and only fragments of their traditions survived. Spiritually, we believe that we are following the paths once trod by our namesakes and that no other name is nobler or more suited to our modern intentions and that makes us real as far as we're concerned!
ADF maintains friendly relations with the fraternal ("Mesopagan" or mixed Christian & Pagan) Druid orders in England and elsewhere, as well as with the handful of other Neopagan Druid groups. We encourage our members to investigate these other organizations and to learn as much as they can about alternate paths of Druidism. We are, however, quick to expose groups and individuals we believe to be fraudulent or dangerous, even though such vigilance may be controversial.
Not hardly. The only dogma promulgated so far has been the Doctrine of Archdruidic Fallibility requiring the members to accept that everyone in ADF, from the Archdruid on, makes mistakes. Members are encouraged to (politely) argue with the leadership, to form their own opinions and special interest groups, and to communicate as much as possible with both 'insiders' and 'outsiders'. People without a sense of humor and proportion are discouraged from seeking leadership positions. Nepotism is forbidden, financial records are open, everyone is accountable to everyone else, and the members of the Mother Grove are not getting rich. So what more do you want?
You don't have to be. Despite the Irish name for our organization and the use of the Celtic term for clergy ('druids'), our members come from a wide variety of ancestries, including European, Asian, Native American, and African. We have no time or sympathy for racist nonsense or cultural bigotry. Our members honor Celtic, Germanic, Lithuanian, Polish, Greek and other Indo-European deities, ancestors and nature spirits. If you're sincerely interested in any of the old I-E cultures and its metaphysics, arts, and customs, then you're welcome in our ranks.
The Wiccan ('Neopagan Witchcraft') movement includes the vast majority of the 100,000 to 250,000 people involved in Neopaganism in North America. About three-quarters of our membership are or have been followers of Wicca, including a sizable number of Wiccan priests and priestesses who are using our Study Program to improve their clergy skills. The primary differences between Druidism and Wicca are these: Druidism is polytheistic, large-group oriented, and public. Wicca is duotheistic, small-group oriented, and private. Nonetheless, the two religions have far more in common than they have separating them (see What Do Neopagan Druids Believe? for details). Wiccan covens can (and do) function as special interest groups within larger ADF groves, along with bardic, healing, ecological, divinitory, and other groups.
Despite the stereotypes of the ancient Druids as having been long-bearded patriarchs, you didn't have to be a man to be a Druid back then and you don't need to be male now. Half of the membership of ADF is female and women hold half of the positions of power in the organization. We have deliberately chosen to make gender and affectional preferences irrelevant to participation in ADF. As worshippers of the Earth Mother, we can do no less. In fact, one of our primary religious symbols, 'the Druid Sigil', represents Her.
Yes, it's true. But then, so did the clergy of almost every other religion in human history, including the monotheistic ones. Neopagan Druids are forbidden to practice human or animal sacrifice in our rituals. Instead we offer the Goddesses and Gods flowers, fruits, wine, incense, music, song, drama, prayer, and most important of all our love. The deities seem to find it more than sufficient.
We celebrate the turning of the Wheel of the Year by observing eight 'High Days' (the solstices and the equinoxes, as well as the halfway points between which were originally the great fire festivals of our European predecessors). Due to our calendrical researches, we often celebrate the Major High Days a few days after other Neopagans do. Some groves also celebrate the various phases of the moon, or the beginnings and endings of various hunting, fishing, and agricultural seasons.
An ADF grove is any group of three or more voting members of ADF over the age of 18, who live in the same general geographical area, who gather together at least twice a month to study and practice Druidism within the context of Ar nDra'ocht Fein, and who are chartered by the Mother Grove (the Board of Directors) of ADF as a local congregation.
An ADF grove provides open worship ceremonies for all eight High Days, study groups for various Druidic arts and sciences, fellowship, hard work, and lots of fun. Almost any member of ADF can plant a 'protogrove' just by asking. All groves and protogroves are listed in our publications on a regular basis, making it easy for other members to contact you. See The ADF Grove Organizers' Handbook for more details, or contact the Registrar.
Many of the members of Ar nDra'ocht Fein: A Druid Fellowship, Inc. ('ADF') have come to accept most of the following beliefs. However, it's important to remember that not everyone would use the term 'belief' in reference to these concepts, and that every concept mentioned has a wide variety of accepted interpretations within the organization.
We believe that divinity is both immanent (internal) and transcendent (external), with immanence being far more important for us to pay attention to at this crucial phase of human history. Deities can manifest at any point in space or time which They might choose, including within human beings (through the processes known as 'inspiration', 'channeling', and 'possession').
We believe that divinity is as likely to manifest in a female form as it is in a male form, and that the word 'Goddess' makes just as much sense as 'God'. Women and men are spiritually equal, and 'masculine' and 'feminine' attitudes, values, and roles are of equal importance.
We believe in a multiplicity of gods and goddesses, as well as lesser beings, many of Whom are worthy of respect, love and worship. We have a wide variety of nonexclusive concepts as to the nature of these entities. While some of us believe in a 'Supreme Being', Neopagan Druidism is emphatically polytheistic. We have no figure of ultimate Evil.
We believe that it is necessary to have respect and love for Nature as divine in Her own right, and to accept ourselves as part of Nature and not Her 'rulers'. Many of us accept what has come to be known as 'the Gaia hypothesis', that the biosphere of our planet is a living being, Who is due all the love and support that we, Her children, can give Her. We consider ecological awareness and activism to be sacred duties.
We believe in accepting the positive aspects of Western science and technology, but in maintaining an attitude of wariness towards the supposed ethical neutrality of that science and technology. We also consider it important that scientists (like everyone else) pay as much attention to their means as they do to their goals.
We believe that monolithic religious organizations and would-be messiahs and supergurus are a hindrance to spiritual growth. We believe that healthy religions should have a minimum amount of dogma and a maximum amount of eclecticism and flexibility. Neopagan Druidism is an organic religion, and like all other organisms is growing, changing, and producing offshoots.
We believe that ethics and morality should be based upon joy, love, self-esteem, mutual respect, the avoidance of actual harm to ourselves and others, and the increase of public benefit. We try to balance people's needs for personal autonomy and growth with the necessity of paying attention to the impact of each individual's actions on the lives and welfare of others.
We believe that it's difficult for ordinary humans to commit offenses against the Gods and Goddesses, short of major crimes such as ecocide or genocide. Our deities are perfectly capable of defending Their own honor without any need for us to punish people for 'blasphemy' or 'heresy'.
We believe that human beings were meant to lead lives filled with joy, love, pleasure, beauty and humor. Most Neopagans are fond of food, drink, music, sex, and bad puns, and consider all of these (except possibly the puns) to be of spiritual value. However, we do not approve of addictive or compulsive behavior and we support people with dysfunctional histories who have entered appropriate recovery programs.
We believe that with proper training, art, discipline and intent, human minds and hearts are fully capable of performing most of the magic and miracles they are ever likely to need. Magical/miraculous acts are done through the use of what most of us perceive as natural (some say 'divinely granted') psychic talents.
We believe that there is an art and a science to creating, preparing and performing worship rituals. Our worship celebrations are continually evolving as we search for the most intellectually satisfying, artistically beautiful, spiritually powerful, and magically effective rites possible.
We believe in the importance of celebrating the solar, lunar and other cycles of our lives. We consciously observe the solstices, equinoxes and the points in between, as well as the phases of the moon. Such 'rites of intensification' are human universals, as are the various ceremonies known as 'rites of passage,' such as celebrations of birth, puberty, personal dedication to a given deity or group, marriage, ordination, death, etc. Together these various sorts of observations help us to find ourselves in space and time.
Many of us believe in some sort of afterlife, usually involving rest and recovery in the Otherworld before reincarnating. We have no concept of 'eternal' punishment, refusing to worship deities who could be that cruel.
We believe that people have the ability to solve their current problems, both personal and public, and to create a better world. Our utopian vision, tempered with common sense, leads us to a strong commitment to personal and global growth, evolution and balance.
We believe that people can progress far towards achieving personal growth, evolution and balance through the carefully planned alteration of their 'normal' states of consciousness. We use both ancient and modern methods of concentration, meditation, reprogramming and ecstasy.
We believe that human interdependence implies community service. Some of us are active in political, social, ecological and charitable organizations, while others prefer to work for the public good primarily through spiritual means (and many insist on doing both).
We believe that if we are to achieve any of our goals, we must practice what we preach. Neopagan Druidism, like any other religion, should be a way of life, not merely a weekly or monthly social function. So we must always strive to make our lives consistent with our proclaimed beliefs.
We believe in cooperation and ecumenical activities with those members of other faiths who share all or most of these beliefs. We also believe in resisting efforts by members of dysfunctional religions who seek to persecute us or suppress our human rights. There's more to our beliefs than these few details, of course, and a great deal of variation in how these beliefs are extended to cover other topics. Some of our members are pacifists and others are in the military; some are animal rights activists and vegetarians, others are carnivorous hunters; some are committed to conservative and others to alternative life styles. We actively encourage everyone to apply these principles to the practical questions of their daily lives.
In ADF we believe that excellence in scholarship is vitally important. The Goddesses and Gods do not need us to tell lies on their behalf, nor can we understand the ways of our Paleopagan predecessors by indulging in romantic fantasies, no matter how 'politically correct' or emotionally satisfying they might be. So we promote no tall tales of universal matriarchies, of Stonehenge being built by Druid magic, nor of the ancient Druids originally having been shamanic crystal-masters from Atlantis. We do not whitewash the occasional barbarism of our predecessors, nor exaggerate it. We use real archeology, real history and real comparative mythology and we're willing to change our opinions when new information becomes available, even if it destroys our pet theories. This approach is rare in the history of Druidic revivals and the Neopagan community.
In ADF we also believe that artistic excellence is important, both in ritual and outside of it. The Gods and Goddesses deserve the very best that we can give them, so we encourage our members to develop their creative skills to the highest levels that each can attain. Our bards, painters, woodcarvers, needle-workers, and liturgists are among the best in the Neopagan community.
In ADF we believe that excellence in clergy training and practice is vital for any healthy, growing religion. To that end we are attempting to create a professional clergy training program equal in difficulty and superior in results to anything done by the world's other religions. Unlike many alternate religions, we will never have 'instant initiations' into our clergy. Nor do we assume that every member of our religion will have a genuine vocation to the clergy, though it's likely that a high proportion will for the first couple of decades. Instead we expect that eventually the vast majority of our people will be laity.
Nonetheless, everyone is expected to communicate with the Goddesses and Gods in her or his own way, spiritual growth is not a monopoly of the clergy. Every human being needs to learn how to contact the divine fire within, how to talk with trees, and how to unleash the power of magic to save the Earth. If there is such a thing as 'spiritual excellence', we need to be striving to express that as well.
Naturally, we believe that liturgical excellence is rooted in these other forms of excellence. Sound scholarship (especially historical and mythological), beautiful art, genuinely competent clergy, and people who are ready, willing, and able to channel divine energies are all crucial to creating the powerful religious and magical ceremonies that we and the Earth so desperately need.
We have two mottos that we've been using so far. The first is based on the ideas just described: 'Why not excellence?' This emphasis on excellence as a goal makes us both unique and controversial within the Neopagan community. Although some folks think that such an emphasis isn't 'democratic', we feel that divine immanence implies that everyone has something they are good at (you just need to contact the deities within you and channel Their creative power). However, our second motto 'As fast as a speeding oak tree!' serves to remind us all that the achievement of excellence takes time.
We've already officially declared the first Druidic dogma: the Doctrine of Archdruidic Fallibility. No one in ADF, not even the Archdruid, has all the answers. We make no claims of handing down an 'authentic' unbroken tradition from the past, and have very strong doubts about any other group that makes such claims.
Thus we are free to evolve our systems within the organic structures already created, adapting them as necessary to suit the needs of coming generations. We're also free to make a lot of mistakes in the process (a freedom we've already taken advantage of). Every member of ADF has both the opportunity and the obligation to contribute her or his time, money, energy and talents to the adventure.
We believe that Neopaganism is eventually going to become a mainstream religious movement, with hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of members, and that this will be A Good Thing, both for the individuals involved and for the survival of the Earth Mother. Neopaganism is riding the crest of the 'baby boom'. Many people who grew up in the 60's and 70's are discovering us at about the same time that they are realizing both the desperate state of our planet and the eternal relevance of our youthful ideals. Membership in the Neopagan community is quietly growing at a geometric rate, both through word of mouth and the many do-it-yourself books now available, giving us an ever-greater impact on the mainstream culture as a whole.
All these Neopagans are going to need publicly accessible worship, teaching, counseling, and healing. Within thirty years we expect to see indoor temples and/or sacred groves throughout North America and Europe, staffed by full-time paid professional clergy. They'll provide the full range of needed services to the Neopagan community, with no more 'corruption' than the Unitarians, the Buddhists, or the Quakers experience. We see globally televised Samhain rites at Stonehenge, and Beltane ceremonies attended by thousands in every major city. We see Neopagan clergy taking part as equals in international religious conferences with clergy from other faiths. We see our children wearing pentacles, Druid Sigils, and Thor Hammers to school as easily as others now wear crosses, Stars of David, or Hands of Fatima.
We see talented and well trained Neopagan clergy leading thousands of people in effective magical and mundane actions to save endangered species, stop polluters, and preserve wilderness. We see our healers saving thousands of lives and our bards inspiring millions through music and video concerts and dramas. We see Neopaganism as a mass religion, changing social, political, and environmental attitudes around the world and stopping the death-mongers in their tracks.
This vision is very different from that of most current Neopagans, who are focussed on small groups as their ideal. Those small groups will always be an essential part of the Neopagan religious community, operating both within and apart from larger organizations, just as their equivalents have throughout human history. As we see it, the future of Neopaganism will require a wide variety of different group sizes, structures, and ritual styles. To lose any of the currently existing approaches risks impoverishing our spiritual 'gene pool'. So we're not out to 'replace' other Neopagan traditions, even though we think that we have something unique and wonderful to share with the world.
Doing that sharing requires 'going public', something that many Neopagan traditions have been reluctant to do. Granted, it may remain necessary for another decade or two for some Neopagans to remain in hiding wherever fundamentalist hate is rampant. Even for those of us in publicly-oriented Neopagan groups, it will take courage and caution for us to safely 'come from the shadows'. Yet if we can follow the lessons learned by the civil rights movements of our generation, we can eventually have full freedom to practice our beliefs. Accepting and encouraging our community's growth while avoiding missionary fever will be a vital tool in achieving that task.
We believe that ADF has an important role to play in the future of Neopaganism and the survival of the Earth. Already, other Neopagan traditions are imitating our training program, our liturgical techniques, and our emphasis on the arts. If we can attract enough people who are willing to dedicate their time, energy, and money to achieving these goals, the vision can be manifested. We can save the Earth Mother, create a global culture of prosperity and freedom, and usher in a genuine 'New Age'.
Membership in ADF means supporting and working towards the vision. We believe that together we can do it. But we're going to need as many co-conspirators as possible. If this vision excites you, share it with your friends and family. Then become part of our future.
The following books will get you started on
understanding ADF's approach to reconstructing
Druidism:
"The New Comparative Mythology, An Anthropological Assessment of the Theories of Georges Dumezil", C. Scott Littleton; 3rd Edition, University of California, 1980; ISBN 0-520-04103-8; paper. This is the best critical introduction to Dumezil's work, with an extensive bibliography of relevant books and articles by Dumezil and others.
"Women, Androgynes, and Other Mythical Beasts", Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty, University of Chicago, 1982; ISBN 0-226-61850-1; paper. O'Flaherty (now known as Doniger) gives an extensive discussion of the sexual politics of the IE myth system using sound research and a clear presentation. She's also the author of: "Shiva, the Erotic Ascetic"; "The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology"; "Other People's Myths"; and an excellent translation of the "Rig Veda", among many other books and articles.
"The Druids", Stuart Piggott, Thames and Hudson, 1985; ISBN 0-500-27363-4; paper. The best book on the subject so far, covering the archaeological, classical, and historical evidence concerning the Druids, both Paleopagan and Mesopagan, albeit in a very anti-romantic and anti-religious style.
"Drawing Down the Moon", Margot Adler; Beacon Press, 1987; ISBN 0-8070-3253-0; paper. This is the best book that anyone has published about Neopagan movements in America. Note, however, that the discussions of Reformed Druidism do not reflect what is going on in ADF today. There is a nice section on ADF starting at page 325 in this second edition.
"Real Magic", Isaac Bonewits; Samuel Weiser, Inc., 1989; ISBN 0-87728-688-4; paper. A basic introduction to the theory and practice of magic. Currently available in occult/New Age stores. If enough people request it by ISBN, most large bookstore chains will carry it. Includes an extensive bibliography of other titles that will be helpful.
"Proto-Indo-European Trees", Paul Freidrich; Univ. of Chicago, 1970; ISBN 0-226-26480-7; hard. Primarily a linguistic monograph, this is the only book to cover in detail the various species of trees known to have had names in the PIE language. He includes a great deal of religious and symbolic detail without always realizing that he is doing so.
"Stonehenge, the Indo-European Heritage", Leon E. Stover and Bruce Kraig, Nelson-Hall, 1978; ISBN 0-88229-612-4; paper. A harsh but fascinating look at the people associated with the various stages of Stonehenge's construction. The authors belong to the 'hard primitivism' school of IE studies, are hostile to religion and positively rabid about clergy, but the book does an excellent job of straightening out the bewildering array of prehistoric and early IE cultures. The bibliography and research notes are great.
"Reflections on Resemblance, Ritual, and Religion", Brian K. Smith; Oxford University Press, 1989; ISBN 0-19505545-4; hard. A superb introduction to the complex world of Vedic ritual and metaphysics. Much of what puzzles him will make perfectly good sense to Neopagan ritualists, and will give us some glimpses of what western Druidism must have been like.
"A History of Religious Ideas", by Mircea Eliade, in 3 volumes. "Vol. 1 - From the Stone Age to the Eleusinian Mysteries" (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1978, ISBN 0-226-20401-4, paper) and "Vol. 2 - From Gautama Buddha to the Triumph of Christianity" (UofC Press, 1982, ISBN 0-226-20403-0, paper) are of most value to Neopagans. This is simply the best material on the history of religious ideas available, organized both chronologically and thematically. It includes an enormous amount of information on Paleopaganism and early Christianity.
"Celtic Heritage", Alwyn & Brinley Rees; Thames & Hudson, 1961; ISBN 0-500-27039-2; paper. A Dumezilian analysis of Celtic mythology and religion, based primarily on Irish and secondarily on Welsh materials. Gives an excellent overview of basic patterns of belief, and will explain much of the cosmology underlying Celtic mythology and ritual.
"The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles, Their Nature and Legacy", Ronald Hutton, Blackwell Publishers, 1991, ISBN 0-631-18946-7; paper. A brilliant review of the history, prehistory and psuedohistory of British Paleopaganism. This is an excellent tour of all 'the things we know that just ain't so,' and belongs in every Druid's library.
"History - Remembered, Recovered, Invented", Bernard Lewis; Princeton Univ. Press, 1975; hardcover. A succinct introduction to the ways in which people filter history through their personal and cultural needs, fears, and wishes, even when they're trying to be unbiased. An excellent cure for excessive romanticism, scientolatry, and matriarchal fever.
"The Battle for Gaul", Julius Caesar, translated by Anne & Peter Wiseman; Chatto & Windus (London), 1980; ISBN 0-7011-2504-7; hardcover. A modern colloquial translation, filled with dozens of explanatory maps, photographs and drawings.
"Elements of the Druid Tradition", Philip Carr-Gomm; Element Books (Dorset, England), 1991; ISBN 1-85230-202-X; paper. A brief introduction to the facts and fancies of Mesopagan Druidism, by the current Chosen Chief of the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids. Overtly romantic, yet honest about absent historical evidence. Includes excellent guided meditations and good ideas about bridging the gaps between Meso- and Neopagan Druids. Also recommended is his "The Druid Way", the story of a vision quest/pilgrimage through the landscape of southern England (ISBN 1-85230-365-4, 1993, same publisher).
Additional recommended books (some 300 or so) can be found in the back of "The ADF Study Manual".
We do not recommend any nonfiction by Robert Graves (on Celtic topics), D.J. Conway, Robert Monroe, Lewis Spense, H.P. Blavatsky, Edward Williams (aka Iolo Morganwg), or any works by others based on their writings, nor those of Merlin Stone, Barbara Walker, or other revisionist ideologues. Over 90% of what is available in print about the ancient Druids is hogwash, so read carefully and look for unverified (and unverifiable) assumptions, nationalistic biases, scientistic dogmas, monotheistic reinterpretations, Victorian whitewashes, references to Atlantis or ancient Egypt, claims of intact underground family traditions of Druidism, 'sacred druid trees' that are actually North American vines, racist/anti-semitic/sexist ravings, chapters (or entire books) on 'Celtic Shamanism' or 'Celtic Christianity/Culdees', etc.
When in doubt, consult your nearest tree...
Red Deer:
MM Isaac!
ARCHDRUID:
My deepest apologies everyone.
Herne:
Blessed Be Isaac
MagicFigures:
Yeah!
dragonmoose:
MM Archdruid
Red Deer:
Before Isaac starts...
ARCHDRUID:
I'll stick around later to make up the time.
PAniteowl:
whew ... Isaac you had us worried ... Welcome (g)
WiseWitch:
My fault, actually.
Red Deer:
I'd like to remind everyone that WW is warding...
Red Deer:
If she says EXCLUDE, please do so, and don't talk to the excluded party any more
Cloudburst:
no prob
Red Deer:
Isaac, without further ado, the floor (?) is yours!
WiseWitch:
And save the Hi's and Bye's for IM during class.......
Red Deer:
definitely, WW
ARCHDRUID:
How should we start? Is there a list of questions, or should I just rave? (G)
PAniteowl:
RAVE ON McDuff
WiseWitch:
Either way, Isaac.
Hugmeister:
RAVE
Red Deer:
I'd love to hear you rave, Archdruid
MagicFigures:
Rave, please
Cloudburst:
I love it when you rave
melilot:
Rave
dragonmoose:
Rave then I have many questions......
ARCHDRUID:
Well, let's see, I've got some prepared text here, let me see if I can cut and paste it in....
Red Deer:
looks like we're approaching consensus
Hugmeister:
Rave so I can dance, then the questions will come
Tuatha:
rave
ARCHDRUID:
No, I can't. So much for planning ahead... ;-)
Red Deer:
Ah, the best LAID plans of mice and Archdruids (g)
ARCHDRUID:
OK, let's start with the question a lot of folks have, what's the diff between Druidism and Wicca.
PAniteowl:
Excuse me ... most have read the pre class notes provided by RD
ARCHDRUID:
That helps!
Red Deer:
should we check that with all present?
Red Deer:
{--- has read several times
ARCHDRUID:
I think I'll do this by Q&A then, since I can't C&P.
melilot:
read them
Freinsch:
Check
Morrigan:
not I...being new to this and unknown to most
Miss Mary:
Ok. Can I ask a question? I have never really been exposed to Druids other than in books. Does the Druid path follow the same guidelines as Wicca?
Hugmeister:
{--- Didn't read, doesn't do the Wicca BB
PAniteowl:
{--- check
MagicFigures:
Read
Sylverhare:
yeppers
Cloudburst:
{---read the info, but I think you're hearing from people who haven't. Maybe a quick rundown?
ARCHDRUID:
Mary, the answer is typically Druidic: Yes, No and Sometimes. :)
Red Deer:
LOL!
Miss Mary:
How so? Do they follow the Wiccan Rede of harm none?
dragonmoose:
Archdruid (is there really any guidelines ( rules ) in Wicca or Druidism?
ARCHDRUID:
OK. Vocabulary first: Paleopagan = ancient, original; Mesopagan = Mixed Christian/Pagan; Neopagan = modern polytheistic Paganism's.
melilot:
yes how? no how? sometimes how?
ARCHDRUID:
The original Druids were a social *class* of artists and intellectuals. They were wiped out by Rome and later the Roman Church. Fraternal groups were started in the 18th century in an attempt to revive Druidism. Very Meso. Neopagan Druidism was started in the mid 1960's.
Red Deer:
The original Druids were not completely male oriented, were they?
ARCHDRUID:
Kind of hard to have a social class without women ain't it? (G)
Morrigan:
Is there anyone practicing Paleopaganism now?
Cloudburst:
good point(G)
Tuatha:
are there any Paleopagans really
Red Deer:
Well, the Roman Church sure tries!
ARCHDRUID:
No, 50% of the Druids were female.
Morrigan:
(!)
Miss Mary:
Yes, but were women also allowed to join in worship, or was the Ancient Druids mainly priests?
PAniteowl:
Are there any surviving written records of the Paleos
ARCHDRUID:
There are some Paleopagan groups left, such as the Taoists and some Amazon Indian tribes. Most groups claimed to be Paleo are really Meso.
Red Deer:
and the Dagon of Malaysia
Morrigan:
amazon indian tribes?
Cloudburst:
native Australians?
ARCHDRUID:
((Note, folks, I'm not a touch typist, so I'm looking at my keyboard while I'm typing. That means my answers are going to be two or three beats behind your questions/comments.))
Red Deer:
Dreamtime beliefs and rituals are definitely Paleo
Miss Mary:
Understood!
PAniteowl:
(g)
Autumn21:
Dreamtime??
Red Deer:
it's native Australian belief, Autumn
ARCHDRUID:
Almost all the surviving polytheistic cultures have had their beliefs modified by impact with Christianity or Islam.
Autumn21:
oh
Morrigan:
so there is no pure Paleo's left then?
ARCHDRUID:
That's why Native Americans, for example, talk so much about the "Great Spirit". The High God probably wasn't an important figure in their religions before the Christians showed up.
ARCHDRUID:
Morrigan, very few.
Morrigan:
(sigh)
Miss Mary:
Back to Druidism and women..... Were the Druids of a matriarchal society where women had equal or greater power in ruling and religion?
ARCHDRUID:
Mary, to answer your earlier question, many Neopagan Druids are also Wiccans, so I suspect that they try to follow the Harm None rule, impossible as it is.
MagicFigures:
What do you mean, impossible?
ARCHDRUID:
To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a matriarchal society anywhere on Earth.
Morrigan:
So perhaps the closest one could come these days is Wicca?
Red Deer:
I think Gimbutas would disagree, Archdruid
Miss Mary:
It's impossible to have pets with fleas without harming one or the other- kill the fleas and you're harming them. Leave the fleas and you're harming the pet.
ARCHDRUID:
Morrigan, yes. Red Deer, her last few books played pretty fast and loose with the evidence.
WiseWitch:
Isaac, throw in that rant you gave us at FSG on the 3-fold law later, would you?
Morrigan:
I don't think there is any real conclusive evidence of matriarchal societies...yet
Miss Mary:
I have always thought that the Harm None tenet is a guideline to first and foremost protect ourselves and friends...
ARCHDRUID:
Mary, the reason why Neopagans and other occultists think that magical ethics need to be different from daily mundane ethics is Christian Dualism.
Freinsch:
It is my understanding that some NW Indian tribes were Matrilineal
Herne:
Its ok to kill fleas and other "pests", fleas harm pets and can kill them, the greater harm you have to avoid
ARCHDRUID:
The proponents of matriarchy have been slyly changing their definitions in midargument for a couple of decades now.
dragonmoose:
Archdruid, can you give me some information on Dagda and Lug?
ARCHDRUID:
Herne, the Jains in India take harmlessness ("ahimsa") so seriously that they wear gauze masks to avoid inhaling gnats!
MagicFigures:
I thought it's harm ye non except in self-defense
ARCHDRUID:
DM, Dagda is one of my favorites!
Red Deer:
'tis still impossible to "Harm None"... You're body kills microorganisms and parasites every day
Sylverhare:
Whoah, slow down folk, I can see the beads of perspiration forming on the Archdruid's forehead
Hugmeister:
give Archdruid a chance to catch up
PAniteowl:
thanks for reminder Sylver
ARCHDRUID:
He's a multifunctional deity, as Druid, warrior, fertility source and dirty-job-doer, not to mention King.
Red Deer:
I've always preferred "Seek not to harm others"
dragonmoose:
So was he a actual man or a god?
ARCHDRUID:
Yes.
Morrigan:
godking perhaps?
Cloudburst:
(G)
Tuatha:
as long as were on Celtic mythology, what can you tell me about The Morrigan
ARCHDRUID:
Some deities were probably "originally" mortals, but that's a slippery slope.
WiseWitch:
{--- wish I could play a WAV of Isaac's song about Dagda........
Red Deer:
She's here!
PAniteowl:
How did the ADF come about Isaac?
Morrigan:
I take the name Morrigan...alas I know very little...still a novice
Autumn21:
who's here red??
Red Deer:
Morrigan... 'twas a joke
Autumn21:
oh
ARCHDRUID:
Tuatha, She's another of my favorites! Also multifunctional, but not as much as Dagda. Mostly war, fertility and guide to the dead.
Morrigan:
(G) I know. cool
ARCHDRUID:
ADF got started as an attempt to organize some Neopagans who were interested in reconstructing what the *real* Old Religions had been. It growed!
Tuatha:
do you believe that her night is Nov. 1, when she meets the Dagda by the river and is able to take human form for one night only.
ARCHDRUID:
Tuatha, no. I think She can appear anyway She wants anytime She wants!
PAniteowl:
Are there any written records of the "Old Religions" available today?
Morrigan:
on that note...isn't Nov. 1 the Samhain ?
ARCHDRUID:
OK, give me a few minutes to type here...
WiseWitch:
That depends on how you figure the dates, Morrigan.
Morrigan:
old calendars vs new ones...of course. (g)
ARCHDRUID:
We have several sources of information about Indo-European Paleopaganism...
dragonmoose:
So in present day Druidism and Wicca, does one research and find say a couple o gods to pay reverence to...or is it basically find your own way as long as it is for the good of man, beast and earth?
Miss Mary:
I have never gotten my hands on 'the Book of the Dun Cow', doesn't it have a lot of mythologies of the Irish in it?
ARCHDRUID:
((Hang on Moose))
dragonmoose:
{--- will shut up for the moment
ARCHDRUID:
We have the archeological record, a source of *much* speculation about religious topics...
WiseWitch:
Ah, the Tain, Mary?
ARCHDRUID:
We have the writings of the Greek and Roman authors... We have the surviving sagas and myths of the various I-E peoples -- *most of which have strong similarities in characters, plot-lines and cosmologies*... And we have surviving bits of Paleopaganism in the Baltics.
Hugmeister:
Mary, try Olive Tree Books in New Orleans in the French Quarter for that book. They had it when I lived there.
Herne:
We have Homer & Hesiod, Pindar and a lot of the Hellenist writings, unfortunately for the "Celtics" many of them seem to think that the Hellenists have nothing to offer them
ARCHDRUID:
Put them all together and we can sketch out a fairly clear view of what our European ancestors did and believed.
WiseWitch:
Isaac, do you have any good books on the Baltics?
PAniteowl:
No Rosetta Stones of the Druids .. eh?
ARCHDRUID:
Lots of people, including a few scholars, like to pretend that their favorite I-E cultures were very different from the other ones.
Morrigan:
I don't think they did much writing, hence there is no record...correct?
Miss Mary:
What of the mythologies saved but changed by the Christian monks? The stories of Snow White and others were originally local legends and tales.
ARCHDRUID:
WW, I highly recommend Marija Gimbutas'(!) book, "The Balts", also her "The Slavs".
dragonmoose:
I-E someone?
WiseWitch:
I-E = Indo-European.
Morrigan:
thank you
ARCHDRUID:
I-E = Indo-European language family.
dragonmoose:
Thank you WW.
Herne:
Knowing what they did and seeing the world as they did and experiencing the gods as they did are something else though, I don't think that we would want too in all respects
dragonmoose:
um, Indo...meaning Indonesia?
Freinsch:
Indo as in India
Cloudburst:
meaning India, moose
ARCHDRUID:
So while the Druids per se, as the clergy caste of the specifically Celtic peoples, didn't write much down, their colleagues the Brahmins and Flamens, did.
Sylverhare:
Is there a modern translation (past 1940 or so) of the Hanes Taliesin available on the market now?
ARCHDRUID:
Sylver, I'd have to say that I don't know. Try E-mailing (LisaLa@aol.com), she'd know. Or Domi O'Brien here on Prodigy.
Sylverhare:
thank you
PAniteowl:
I see the same problem with current translations of Old religions as Biblical interpretations
Red Deer:
Archdruid... how does the ADF feel about calendar revision?
ARCHDRUID:
In what sense?
Morrigan:
I'm sorry...ADF?
WiseWitch:
In what ways, PA?
WiseWitch:
ADF = Ar nDraiocht Fein A Druid Fellowship INC.
Red Deer:
Well, I feel the calendric cycle reflects changes in the seasons, as the Wheel Turns...
PAniteowl:
who did the translation, what was their particular agenda ... etc
Morrigan:
got it
WiseWitch:
Isaac is The ArchDruid of ADF.
Red Deer:
But the holidays, by that reckoning, would be very different in Vermont and North Carolina
ARCHDRUID:
PA, yes, and we've even got a few "fundamentalists" around! (G)
Red Deer:
eg, we have about 5 months of summer, 3 of spring and fall and 2 of winter
PAniteowl:
a great deal of historical writings were reproduced and interpreted by Christian scholars. I question their objectivity (g)
Morrigan:
I do too PA
Red Deer:
therefore, my Samhain and Imbolc come later and earlier than others
ARCHDRUID:
So far, in ADF we're sticking the standard combined Celtic/Germanic calendar of eight holidays, six weeks apart. Makes it easier to serve the Pagan public.
Autumn21:
adf??
WiseWitch:
RD, I'd say that the Solar Festivals rely more on the Sun, so can be uniform. And that the Fire Festivals depend on what you measure them by - Astronomical or local phenomenon.
Miss Mary:
To find the truth, PAniteowl, you read the interpretations, hear the stories, and pick out the similarities; all else is point of view.
Hugmeister:
Scroll up, Autumn
WiseWitch:
ADF - scroll up, Autumn, I answered t hat.
Red Deer:
yeah, I ritual when others do (when I'm with 'em) but still use my personal calendar when solitary
Autumn21:
oh
ARCHDRUID:
ADF is the Pan-Indo-European reconstructionist tradition of Neopagan Druidism that I started ten years ago.
Red Deer:
yup WW, solar nodes are definitely fixed...
Cloudburst:
only 10?!
Sylverhare:
that's why I get as many different translations as I can, ignore the commentary, and compare them PA, it helps cut out the added in crap
dragonmoose:
Pan?
ARCHDRUID:
We tend to use astronomical dates for the solstices and equinoxes, plus the halfway points between.
WiseWitch:
Yes, but ADF leaders had YEARS in other groups.
PAniteowl:
Nice job Isaac ... mazeltov!
ARCHDRUID:
This makes us consider the "official" dates for the Major High Days a few days later than most Neopagans.
Autumn21:
what about him moose?
Cloudburst:
"pan" as in all/every, moose
dragonmoose:
Pan- Indo Euro.....
dragonmoose:
ok, thanks.
ARCHDRUID:
Right!
ARCHDRUID:
That caused a schism in ADF fairly early on.
Autumn21:
but i thought pan was Greek
ARCHDRUID:
Keltria branched off because they wanted to be exclusively Celtic.
WiseWitch:
Autumn, Pan is a Greek word meaning ALL. Pan the God can be seen as the Male in nature, ALL FATHER
Herne:
Isaac, Back in the 70's you were involved with an Anti Defamation league, is that still ongoing?
ARCHDRUID:
Let me throw some contact information in here. Everybody start logging (!?!) now... :)
ARCHDRUID:
Herne, no, it's defunct.
ARCHDRUID:
You can call 1-800-DRUIDRY for a long voice description of ADF.
Miss Mary:
But aren't the Gods of other cultures related much to the Celtic Gods? For instance the Goddess Kelede who was thought to be brought about by the Indian Goddess Kali.
melilot:
are there any new organizations for this purpose
ARCHDRUID:
You can send E-mail to the following folks to get info on different groups:
ARCHDRUID:
For ADF, (kithoward@delphi.com)
Cloudburst:
Mary, that's why read all the I-E mythologies
ARCHDRUID:
For Keltria: (Keltria@aol.com)
ARCHDRUID:
For the Order of Bards, Ovates & Druids, (Oaktreepress@eworld.com).
Red Deer:
comparative religion... the one and the many (cross-culturally, so to speak)
dragonmoose:
So, one could take the teachings of any and all of what ancient belief systems that can be found and form them into one self as long as one abides by the "rule" of...
ARCHDRUID:
Within a few weeks we'll have a (www.adf.org) web page up on the Internet.
Red Deer:
Great, Archdruid!
dragonmoose:
harming none ( Herne ) and continuing self awareness and knowledge?
WiseWitch:
Well, you could have NEW AGE religion that way...............
ARCHDRUID:
Dragon, in ADF we try to stick to using pantheons from cultures that are historically, linguistically, and mythologically related.
Miss Mary:
Now that makes you Neo-Techno-Pagans! (VBG)
Herne:
Isaac, what are the primary deities that the Druids worship today? How do you see yourselves as being different in your worship other than technique than the non-duotheistic Wicca?
WiseWitch:
But I dunno about Paleopagans, or some of us reconstructionists, necessarily accepting Harm None. And we don't tend to 'lump', either.
PAniteowl:
Dragon .. Religion is a personal belief first ... problems appear when it becomes a political being (IMHO)
Red Deer:
dragon... I think the purpose of studying mythology from multiple cultures is to find the root similarities... those are things probably unaltered by Xtianity / Islam... not just to pick and choose what you like from them
Truthunter:
dragonmoose that is modern and nice in the new age vein....but rapes the ancient pagan culture to say that all can be taken together or moved into one...
Sylverhare:
A pan-theology like that might be to general to visualize enough for effective working and transformation, Moose, but it might be worth a try.
Morrigan:
there seems to be no purity of culture or belief then
ARCHDRUID:
Most Wiccans are duotheistic, though some are monotheistic. In ADF Druidism, we place a heavy emphasis on being polytheistic, on treating each deity as the unique individual He or She was originally worshipped as.
dragonmoose:
Thank you very much all....that question has been haunting me, you have cleared that one well, thank you.
Morrigan:
so in a sense, you worship all of them regardless of the culture they came from?
Truthunter:
polytheistic is normal to antiquity but within very defined parameters of acceptability so not any many will do to a belief
ARCHDRUID:
The other major differences are in focus: Wicca is small group oriented, private, closed and exclusionary. Druidism is large group oriented, public, open and inclusionary. NONE OF THESE ARE TO BE TAKEN AS NEGATIVE TERMS!
WiseWitch:
We ACKNOWLEDGE all of them. We don't WORSHIP all of them.
Truthunter:
they did not definitely acknowledge all
PAniteowl:
AMEN Wise Witch
Morrigan:
hmmm worship being a bad word here?
Red Deer:
Old ones have said All worship the same gods with different names
Herne:
I think most Wiccans are Duotheistic because it lends itself easily to conceptualization, QBL influences. Do you work Magick in circle?
dragonmoose:
Ok wise, I get confused because there are so many.
WiseWitch:
Worship being time consuming! [g]
PAniteowl:
(G)
Morrigan:
I agree and understand that RD
Cloudburst:
Thanks for bringing up the structural difference, Archdruid. This is why so many Wiccans can function inside of ADF?
Truthunter:
never saw a group that were so bent on deluding and beating up their core sources so much
ARCHDRUID:
Right...
ARCHDRUID:
Many of our members use Wicca for private work and Druidism for public work.
PAniteowl:
??? truthunter???
Red Deer:
Morrigan, worship is not bad, just limited to specific God/dess/es, even though others are acknowledged rather than said not to exist
Truthunter:
Old ones have not said that Red Deer unless you only go back 200 years
Morrigan:
I see
Herne:
What is your method for creating "Sacred Space" then if you don't use a circle?
Red Deer:
go back much farther, Truth... 'twas a common concept of ancient culture
WiseWitch:
The World Tree, Herne - but isn't EVERYTHING sacred space?
Morrigan:
well, I'm not old, but I say that all the time Truthhunter
Red Deer:
Aye, WW
ARCHDRUID:
A Wiccan circle is "between the worlds", a Druidic nemeton is "at the center of all worlds."
Red Deer:
6 0 1, Archdruid?
Truthunter:
saying a thing is not making a thing
dragonmoose:
nemeton?
Cloudburst:
more than a difference of phrasing, I take it, Archdruid?
Red Deer:
but saying = making is at the heart of many religions
Truthunter:
ok red
Morrigan:
ok...here's a nasty question...Druids and sacrifice. Do they still make sacrifice today?
Sylverhare:
That's a fine distinction, Archdruid, is there a difference practically?
ARCHDRUID:
The energy moves in and out of a Druidic nemeton ("sacred place"), while it's supposed to stay inside a Wiccan circle.
WiseWitch:
Sure, Morrigan - our time, our efforts, our money, etc.
Morrigan:
(G)
dragonmoose:
Thank you.
Red Deer:
but not the blood of others!
Morrigan:
Whew!
Herne:
Do you raise energy the same ways as the Wicca do?
ARCHDRUID:
Neopagan Druids are forbidden to spill any blood in our public rites and only our own in private ones.
Herne:
And how do you channel and direct it?
Autumn21:
do wiccans and pagans raise energy the same way???
Red Deer:
do all Wiccans raise energy in the same way?
Sylverhare:
Here's a plug for Archdruid, many of these questions are answered in his book "Real Magick" and in lecture tapes available through ACE.
PAniteowl:
I can understand a Wiccan being of the ADF ... Nemeton same as the Web to me ... Circle as in cone of power being raised for specific actions
WiseWitch:
Later - a digression on tapping vs raising energy...........
Morrigan:
thank you Sylver
ARCHDRUID:
The energy for Druid rites is raised primarily through the arts, especially singing and music.
Cloudburst:
good point PA
WiseWitch:
And occasionally dive rolls over the fire...
Miss Mary:
I can handle that kind of energy raising!
Red Deer:
and trees of the Nemeton are as nodes in the Web?
dragonmoose:
You mentioned a Bard address before, can you tell me the Bards place in Druidism today?
ARCHDRUID:
We do perform magic in our rites from time to time, as well as rites of passage.
PAniteowl:
IMHO RD
Red Deer:
Archdruid, could you spend a moment on the sacred trees?
ARCHDRUID:
In OBOD, being a Bard is a stage in training. In ADF, it's a specialty within the leadership.
Freinsch:
Archdruid, what rituals are not public?
dragonmoose:
I have musical abilities and am very interested in using them for a purpose......I will e-mail the address given before.
ARCHDRUID:
Sure, but first let me point out that, contrary to "21 Lessons in Hogwash," the pumpkin was not a sacred Druidic tree! (G)
PAniteowl:
LOL
Red Deer:
LOL!
Morrigan:
LOL
Cloudburst:
ROTFL
Miss Mary:
Thank you, Issac for the marvelous class. I am sorry i cannot stay for the remainder! Blessed Be!
dream thief:
LOL
Red Deer:
would be hard, since its a north American plant
ARCHDRUID:
Let's see...
Morrigan:
so where did this myth come from then?
ARCHDRUID:
The oak was sacred to the Druid/clergy class...
ARCHDRUID:
The yew and other pines to the Warrior class...
ARCHDRUID:
The birch to the Producer class...
Red Deer:
Is the tree corresponding to each letter of the alphabet considered sacred, or just some of them?
WiseWitch:
It come from the crap in Monroe's mind, morrigan.
ARCHDRUID:
And the willow, possibly, to the serfs and "outsiders".
Autumn21:
monroe??
Morrigan:
(G)
dragonmoose:
How about the mistletoe?
WiseWitch:
The author of the 21 lessons of Merlin, Autumn. A
Autumn21:
oh
ARCHDRUID:
The tree alphabet was invented by Iolo Morganwyg, the man who founded the Mesopagan Druid movement in 1749 (and whom Monroe plagiarized).
Sylverhare:
Here's a question, many Neo-pagans are being drawn to "warrior-paths" these days, is there any movement toward a recreation of, say, the Fianna or the Brigands in ADF or other groups?
Autumn21:
that isn't fair arch
WiseWitch:
What isn't fair, Autumn?
Herne:
What then is the primary focus of Druidism today, the worship of the gods? Research and reconstruction of the old ways as much as can be done? How is it progressive?
WiseWitch:
yes, Sylver.
ARCHDRUID:
One interesting, if upsetting to some, historical point is that the ancient Paleopagan witches were *not* clergy.
Autumn21:
i am Greek pagan, though i can still see what s right and wrong in all traditions
PAniteowl:
The Willow, bends & accepts, offers comfort and protection, and can bridge a divide ... as an olive branch in other parts of the world
ARCHDRUID:
We have a Warriors Guild that just started up in ADF.
Sylverhare:
interesting
Herne:
Are you a Hellene Autumn?
Autumn21:
monroe plagiarizing the Meso druids WW
ARCHDRUID:
The Paleopagan Indo-Europeans had *lots* of words for different kinds of clergy, as well as for midwives, healers, and wise ones -- *none* of these is cognate to "witch" in any of their languages.
Freinsch:
What rituals are not open to the public?
PAniteowl:
why is that upsetting Archdruid
ARCHDRUID:
PA, because a lot of folks still believe that "the Witches were the priests and priestesses of The Olde Religion."
Morrigan:
no one answered the question about mistletoe, please do
Cloudburst:
Freinsch, in any tradition there are more unpublic than public, from grace at meals to rededicating in the shower. What's the question?
WiseWitch:
Yes, him doing that is not fair. Nor is it fair that he ripped the books off from the library.
PAniteowl:
you mean they needed a hierarchy in order to be valid??
Herne:
Witches were shamanistic in al probability, so even if they were not clergy that does not mean that they weren't in touch with the spirit worlds
Cloudburst:
hadn't heard that, WW. Wow!
Autumn21:
that defies the constitution WW
Sylverhare:
I saw that post WW, very troubling
ARCHDRUID:
Freinsch, so far we haven't had any closed rites in ADF, though parts of the ordinations are whispered to the candidates.
WiseWitch:
What does, Autumn?
ARCHDRUID:
Morrigan, there's only one historical text relating Druids to mistletoe (in Pliny). However both European and American mistletoe have strong herbal effects -- including being poisonous!
Morrigan:
so it wasn't sacred then?
ARCHDRUID:
OK, any other questions I haven't answered yet?
WiseWitch:
How about some words on Samhain?
ARCHDRUID:
Morrigan, probably it was sacred, most likely to the King of each tribe.
Autumn21:
pulling books from the library, WW
Sylverhare:
I think you're doing an admirable job of keeping up, Archdruid
Morrigan:
ok
PAniteowl:
You began by referring to the practices as part of the mundane and on an extraordinary ability ... did I get that right?
dragonmoose:
You have answered mine, I thank you.
Red Deer:
same here, Archdruid
Morrigan:
Me too!
WiseWitch:
Autumn, simple thievery doesn't violate the constitution.
Autumn21:
yes, very well arch
WiseWitch:
It breaks other laws.
ARCHDRUID:
Samhain is pronounced "Sohw wen," and is the Night Between Years.
dragonmoose:
Yes, Archdruid, a synopsis on Samhain?
Red Deer:
dragon... WW did that last week. Will have it on the BB soon
Herne:
Wise Witch, Did you read the excellent article on Samhain that my HPS wrote that I put up onto the Wicca BB?
Autumn21:
no but it does go against the laws
WiseWitch:
Yes, Herne.
dragonmoose:
thanks red!
ARCHDRUID:
As an "in-between night" it is a time when the veil between the worlds of mortals and nonmortals is thinnest. Hence, a time for honoring the ancestors, nature spirits, and deities -- the Three Kindreds, as we call them in ADF.
Autumn21:
a time to reach out to those you have lost
Morrigan:
and the purpose of celebrating it is to....commune with the dead?
ARCHDRUID:
Among others.
Red Deer:
and the Nature Spirits and the Gods
Cloudburst:
Archdruid, can you speak to the ADF having "deliberately chosen to make gender and affectional preference irrelevant?" I ran into a Wiccan gp w/strong thealogy on why not, and need ammo(G)
Morrigan:
sorry fingers moved faster than my eyes
ARCHDRUID:
It balances out Beltane (May Day), which is also a highly magical night and day.
Morrigan:
and May Day deals with?
Red Deer:
fertility
Morrigan:
I see
PAniteowl:
beginning of the cycle Morrigan
Morrigan:
death and birth
ARCHDRUID:
Cloud, Wiccan cosmology, metaphysics, and liturgy are highly focused on yin and yang. Originally Gardner was trying to create a European version of Tantra... When all the symbolism is heterosexual, it's hard to avoid making some folks uncomfortable.
Cloudburst:
Morrigan, someone said lately that Beltane is "please" and Samhain is "thank you". Makes sense in agriculture, and life.
Red Deer:
love it, Cloud
dragonmoose:
Yes Morrigan, Samhain-death, Yule-rebirth.
Morrigan:
good point. thanx
PAniteowl:
Like that Cloud!
Morrigan:
Yule...I thought that was a x-mas thing.
Red Deer:
far older than Xmas, Mor... Xtians co-opted it
ARCHDRUID:
Neopagan Druidism, on the other paw, *doesn't* use erotic energy as the primary source of power (as Gardner intended), but instead uses the arts -- which have little gender specificity.
dragonmoose:
From what i have gathered it is when the god is reborn, Dec. 21
WiseWitch:
Morrigan, isn't Xmas a BIRTH holy day?
Morrigan:
OH! duh
PAniteowl:
LOL Morrigan
ARCHDRUID:
Actually, it's easy to get confused, since the Germanic holidays focus on the solstices and equinoxes, while the Celtic ones focused on the halfway points between.
Herne:
We use the dance primarily today and the song and music
Morrigan:
letting all this knowledge sink in
Cloudburst:
Thanks, Archdruid. I didn't EVER understand the energy "balance" emphasis especially in a celebration rather than magic-doing type ritual. Their thang, but seems to have roots (Gardner)
ARCHDRUID:
The Farrars did a pretty good job of reconciling the two systems, but t'ain't easy!
Freinsch:
Is there anything else you wanted to talk about that hasn't been covered?
Morrigan:
is there no correct or more pure focus? Seems the solstices and equinoxes would be more powerful
PAniteowl:
Semantics ... Big stumbling block
Freinsch:
(Fingers sliped) G
ARCHDRUID:
Right, Cloud. Gardner originally intended that covens would become group marriages where the members would pair off randomly for sex magic. Unfortunately, he was dealing with middle class British housewives in the 1950's!
Sylverhare:
lol
Morrigan:
lol
dragonmoose:
Wise, is there an e-mail listing where i might be able to order a list of the druid and wiccan gods?
Red Deer:
and not HIV
Cloudburst:
ROTFL yet again
PAniteowl:
LOL
dream thief:
lol
WiseWitch:
Order a list of Gods???????????
Red Deer:
LOL
Cloudburst:
they call it the library, moose
Red Deer:
One from column A and one from column B?
ARCHDRUID:
Actually, there is a site on the Web that has an encyclopedia of deities!
Freya:
Is this turning into McDonald's? lol
dragonmoose:
From the previous question, more information other than S. Cunnigham?
kc234:
is there a pagan/wiccan bb
PAniteowl:
SEMANTICS struck again LOL
dragonmoose:
Yes Archdruid?
WiseWitch:
There is one here on PRODIGY, KC.
Cloudburst:
KC, dandy Wiccan BB on rel 2
ARCHDRUID:
KC, there are *many*!!
WiseWitch:
Where is this Web site, Isaac?
ARCHDRUID:
The Internet is crawling with Pagans! (G)
Morrigan:
rel 2 ??
kc234:
ok thanks
Cloudburst:
religion concourse 2 BB, P*
Red Deer:
that's why it's the world wide WEB
PAniteowl:
Religion 2 BB
dragonmoose:
Didn't mean for it to sound naive, sorry.
PAniteowl:
He He He RD
kc234:
ok i will be back
ARCHDRUID:
WW, I can't call it up right now, but I'll try and remember to send you a pointer so you can post it.
WiseWitch:
Great, thanks Isaac.
Red Deer:
dragon... one good quality of most pagans is a HUGE sense of humor
dragonmoose:
:]
Cloudburst:
(G)
Red Deer:
[:-}
ARCHDRUID:
All the on-line services have strong Pagan presences. We are everywhere!
dragonmoose:
and an open and intelligent mind...
Morrigan:
no pagans that I can find in Iowa...need my puter for this!!
WiseWitch:
You have any miscellaneous flames you want to air, Isaac?
WiseWitch:
We seem to have time for them...........[g]
Red Deer:
have seen some on the BB from Iowa, Mor, but can't remember who...
ARCHDRUID:
Who me????
Cloudburst:
yeah you(G)
Red Deer:
I though he was a druid, not a Flamen, WW
Morrigan:
if you do remember...please tell me!
PAniteowl:
Flame away Archdruid!
Cloudburst:
oh RD that's awful
Red Deer:
why, thanks, Cloud (g)
PAniteowl:
LOL
Herne:
Yeah Isaac, what bugs ya?
ARCHDRUID:
Let's see, I almost forgot to mention the latest Pagan newsgroup on the Net: (alt.religion.druid)
Cloudburst:
any time dear
ARCHDRUID:
RW, you're starting to sound Druish!
Cloudburst:
oops I mean Deer
Freya:
I'm from Iowa
ARCHDRUID:
Let's see... flames...
Freya:
I know of one other person as well.
Morrigan:
where Freya?
Red Deer:
whose RW, Archdruid?
ARCHDRUID:
How about the shoddy state of scholarship in our community?
Freya:
Parkersburg. where are you???
Morrigan:
Des Moines
WiseWitch:
YES! Go for it!
Red Deer:
Yes!
PAniteowl:
YESSSS
Freya:
woah! big city. (G)
Cloudburst:
GO ARCH!
Morrigan:
or so they think
Sylverhare:
there's SCHOLARSHIP in the community? WHERE?
ARCHDRUID:
Or the Bambi & Bunny Rabbit Pagans who are so afraid of doing something ethically wrong with their magic that they never do anything right either?
Cloudburst:
Syl, I suspect that's Archdruid's point
Red Deer:
LOL
Herne:
Hear! Hear! Our venerable Wiccan Nestor wants to start classes on the Pagan Classics, He started with Homer, not much interest unfortunately,
ARCHDRUID:
Actually, there are some scholars in our community, they just have trouble getting published.
Red Deer:
Am always interested in the idea many share that magick is worked sometimes in some places... for me it's always and everywhere, just sometimes more intensely purposeful or focused than others...
PAniteowl:
Agree RD (g)
Red Deer:
every moment of life is a moment of magick!
ARCHDRUID:
I believe that magic is like any other form of power. Sometimes it's unethical to use it, sometimes it's unethical *not* to use it.
dragonmoose:
(((bows respectfully to all))) Thank you and Blessed Be. Thank you for your time and knowledge Archdruid.
Morrigan:
does magic have to be a practiced thing?
Cloudburst:
Good point, RD. OTOH, there are times of more focus
Morrigan:
I mean...sometimes I can focus on having something and it soon comes to me
Morrigan:
is this magic?
ARCHDRUID:
If you don't think that matter and spirit are separated and at war with one another, then you don't need a special system of magical ethics.
Red Deer:
AMEN!
Cloudburst:
any ethics worth using in magic is worth using the rest of the time
WiseWitch:
Nestor, if our Ancestors knew so much more than we do, and presumably had more use of magick than we do, then how did the...Overreligion...take over?
ARCHDRUID:
Can I have a testimony?!
Red Deer:
Yeaaas!
Herne:
What do you think of the CHAOS school of magick, it's disassociated from morals and ethics
Herne:
Nestor is not in room that I see
WiseWitch:
Oooopps, I meant Isaac, not nestor.
ARCHDRUID:
Well, us Druids are rather fond of Order... Most of the chaos magicians I've met have been shallow, self-centered jerks -- kind of like the teenaged Satanists.
Red Deer:
Perhaps because those of the Overreligion practice(d) magick, whether they realize / admit it or not, WW
PAniteowl:
Agree Archdruid
ARCHDRUID:
Or the older ones, for that matter!
kc234:
anybody in here that can cure people?
Morrigan:
(G) with herbs
ARCHDRUID:
I suspect that the Over-religion conquered religiously for the same reasons the Romans did militarily -- lots of organization and no sense of honor.
Red Deer:
but self-centeredness is two qualities, depending upon whether you think that your self is ultimately woven into the fabric of the universe or ultimately separated from it
Red Deer:
nor sense of humor, Archdruid
Herne:
You make your students work don't you, each has to learn a language and an art? I admire that immensely, to many think that you can buy a book on Wicca and Presto and they DEMAND
ARCHDRUID:
Right, but chaos magicians, Satanists, and most Crowleyites are Christian Dualists.
Herne:
that we respect them
Red Deer:
sadly true
dream thief:
the true purpose of chaos is to promote change and growth, if used ethically and with a moral guideline (an it harm none) it can be very beneficial. Unfortunately morals no longer seem to exist.
Herne:
Not All though, and its always the minority that are innovative, look at Uncle Aliester
Red Deer:
per mathematics, order exists in Chaos, we simply fail to perceive it
ARCHDRUID:
I suspect that the ancient Druids, being artists, knew of the positive side of chaos. But in a tough physical environment, chaos can kill.
Red Deer:
{--- fails to perceive it in Chaos magicians and Satanists as well
dream thief:
LOL
Cloudburst:
RD, Christian Dualists have their own kind of order(G)
PAniteowl:
Chaos can be studied ... wouldn't want to practice it tho (g)
Herne:
Order exists WITHIN chaos, in ways
Red Deer:
unnatural order, Cloud (beg)
ARCHDRUID:
Let me take a five minute break here folks, and I'll come back.
Cloudburst:
right, PA, how would you know if you'd got it right?
PAniteowl:
LOL cloud
Red Deer:
ROTFLMAO
Morrigan:
no one answered my question earlier
Red Deer:
which one Mor?
Cloudburst:
which question, Morrigan?
Morrigan:
about magic
PAniteowl:
Good Class RD .. glad you got Isaac to come in
Trollfrog:
life = chaos
Morrigan:
you'll have to excuse my ignorance here
WiseWitch:
What about it, Mor?
Cloudburst:
Mor, could you repeat?
Morrigan:
there have been times in my life
Red Deer:
wait up, PA... he's still on for another half hour or so
Morrigan:
when I focused on a particular thing, person etc
Herne:
We been trying to get him in here since before Safphire left, yes thank you Red Deer
Morrigan:
and it came to me not long afterwards
Morrigan:
is this magic?
PAniteowl:
yes Morrigan
dream thief:
Yes
Red Deer:
Well, let's all just thank Isaac, and maybe we can get him again!
WiseWitch:
Sure, if you bent your Will to it, sure.
Red Deer:
yes Mor
Cloudburst:
sure. you were putting your energy into something and it responded
Morrigan:
so...unpracticed uneducated witch?
Cloudburst:
magic is a form of energy, Mor
dream thief:
Mor, magic does not need a ritual, rituals merely let us focus more
WiseWitch:
Or un/un magic user - magic is not denominational.
Cloudburst:
you don't have to understand electricity to flip the switch
Herne:
Now Morrigan, see if you can analyze it, note down circumstances, date times, your metal and emotional states, keep a record of these happenings
Morrigan:
so if I developed it....?
Red Deer:
nor internal combustion to drive a car
Cloudburst:
though understanding may help you not get electrocuted(G)
dream thief:
or burned
Trollfrog:
or run over
Freinsch:
I've been transported to the analogy room (G)
dream thief:
LOL
Cloudburst:
Herne's right, Mor. Some kind of journal...
Red Deer:
that's Wiccanalogy, Freinsch
Morrigan:
for what...to prove to myself that it's really happening?
Cloudburst:
ouch RD
Red Deer:
thanks again, Cloud!
dream thief:
Mor learning more will help you to control your abilities and keep from getting hurt or hurting others accidentally
Red Deer:
no, Mor, to learn what makes it work the best
Morrigan:
I see RD!
Morrigan:
hurting others...I've wondered about that
Red Deer:
like, when I want to write a certain kind of poem, I know what moods / circumstances contribute to best success so I don't even try it in other (especially opposite) moods / circumstances
Morrigan:
I know exactly what you mean by that...I write too
Red Deer:
'tis the same with magick
Herne:
Yes Morrigan, by a careful observance and analysis of the mechanics of the phenomena you may be able to increase its effectiveness and produce it at will
Morrigan:
wow
ARCHDRUID:
I'm baaaaaaaaack!
Morrigan:
would Wicca help me to do this?
PAniteowl:
Welcome Archdruid
WiseWitch:
I'm Froooonnnnttttttttttt!
Herne:
Run for your lives
Cloudburst:
this is Druid humor right?
ARCHDRUID:
OK, who's middddddddle?
PAniteowl:
LOL
Cloudburst:
does balanced count?(G)
dream thief:
yes, bad puns (G)
Freinsch:
No worse than Wiccanalogy (G)
Herne:
What is the best side of a woman, back or front, opinions? and why?
Cloudburst:
ARRRGGGHHH!
Red Deer:
Isaac, I have to go and get ready for work. Will leave my 'puter on to capture the rest for the logs.
Morrigan:
I need to attend to my children.
WiseWitch:
Depends on the woman, Herne.
ARCHDRUID:
Hang on folks, I'm booting up my other computer to dig out some web addresses for you.
PAniteowl:
eeeewwwww ..
Morrigan:
thank you all for this learning
Red Deer:
A thousand thank you's for this offering, and I sincerely hope that you can be 'had' again sometime! Brightest Blessings & Merry Part {room}
Sylverhare:
Inside Herne, mostly
WiseWitch:
Isaac, how about some words on the energy exchange with the God/dess/es in an ADF ritual?
Herne:
{---reading Gore Vidal's Julian, it was a question argued both pro and con by a sophist
ARCHDRUID:
Just a sec...
Cloudburst:
I'm waaaay over time, myself. BB/MP, all, and THANK YOU, Archdruid! Stop by the BB sometime?
ARCHDRUID:
Right. OK, energy exchange while my other machine dives into the web... In ADF ritual we assume the same "worship bargain" that most ancient and modern Paleopagans accepted... That the Gods need us as much as we need them.... So the rites are designed to give lots of psychic energy to the deities and we expect (and usually get) blessings in return. Sort of a "we scratch Their auras, They scratch ours." (G)
WiseWitch:
LOL!
dream thief:
LOL
WiseWitch:
{--- making a cape for the Gods for offering at Samhain.
ARCHDRUID:
First URL: COGWeb Home Page is (http://www.cog.org/cog/)
Sylverhare:
I got that in your lecture on Structure of Craft Ritual, in my group we usually start off with a power raising before Drawing Down and Cakes and Wine, does this fulfill the function of the worship bargain?
ARCHDRUID:
Sylver, exactly.
PAniteowl:
MP & BB all ... thanks Isaac ... will be in touch
Posting Date: 31 October 1995
©1995 Red
Deer@pagani