WiseWitch:

What is class on tonight?

Trollfrog:

kindred be teaching tonite

Red Deer:

aye froggie

Red Deer:

May I have everyone's attention please?

Trollfrog:

shhhhhh

Red Deer:

Is everyone ready for class?

MafiaMama3:

i am

huskywolf:

i am ready

Trollfrog:

sure...fire when ready

Red Deer:

I need to dispense the formalities to you first...

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

5) With that, I pass the besom to KindredFlame, who will lead us in a discussion of "Divinatory Tools"

Ilive4ZEN:

wow..lotsa rules..I think I'll just watch

KindredFIame:

Just so everyone knows, I'm not running a macro, and I'm not looking off a cheat sheet..

KindredFIame:

so bear with me, Red Deer? and excuse all typing/spelling errors.

Red Deer:

kewl Kindred, no prob

KindredFIame:

What the setup for this will be is a quick overview of divinatory tools, and an extensive look at Medicine cards.

Then if there is enough time at the end, a short reading for a random volunteer. Do I have a volunteer in advance?

MafiaMama3:

i volunteer, now

KindredFIame:

okie dokie, mama wins it

MafiaMama3:

thnx, KF

KindredFIame:

Only if we have time though, I was counting on an hour, and don't quite have it cause of my technical difficulties.

MafiaMama3:

i understand

KindredFIame:

anyhow... on with the lesson.

Red Deer:

we can overrun a bit Kindred

MafiaMama3:

bless you, Red Deer

KindredFIame:
thanks {S}
First off - divinatory tools are basically vehicles to look into the future..most of the time, they are used to find out the result of a spell or ritual.
They can also be used as ways to help figure out unseen angles to a problem. There are so many different tools, it is almost unbelievable.
A good book to look up different tools in is- "A Wiccan's guide to prophecy and divination" by Gerina Dunwich
Three of the most used are the tarot, the runes, and palmistry
BUT..I'm not going to go over those. {S}
Two more that are not as widely known are the pendulum and Medicine cards.
The pendulum is extremely easy to use, and is great for yes/no answers
all you really need is something of weight tied at the end of a string
then hold the weighted object over a piece of paper with a compass painted on it.
KindredFIame:
north and south are usually indicators of yes, and east and west of no.
think over a question either mentally or verbally and watch the pendulum's movements.
more times than not, it supplies an accurate answer.
You can either buy a pendulum, or make one yourself.

MafiaMama3:

is the pendulum held by hand? or a stationary mount?

KindredFIame:

The best one that I own is just a favorite knife of mine, hung on a piece of ribbon.

Owlbear:

that's rather interesting....will hand material mean yes and head and heart mean no

KindredFIame:

usually held by hand mama, but mounted is possible as well

MafiaMama3:

thnx

KindredFIame:

Owl, that all depends on what those directions mean for you

For me, they don't mean all those things.

moonListener:

does it matter which way you are facing?

KindredFIame:

North means nurturing, east knowledge, south passion, and west feelings

no mL, not usually.

It may for you though, it's different for everyone.

One thing to keep in mind with all tools is that they react differently for everyone.

Owlbear:

well if you take the classic {whatever that is} I thought it was E=air=head, S=fire=will, W=water=heart, N=earth=material, KindredFIame:

KindredFIame:

Like I said owl, it all depends on the person.

The directions of the pendulum may mean something different for you.

moonListener:

is it important that the directions on the paper be accurate?

Owlbear:

;-)

KindredFIame:

A tool is only what YOU make of it. These things are just what it's like for me.

no mL, the directions are whatever you want them to be, really. That's just what I use.

Another thing about divinatory tools is this - it's all revolved around interpretation.

Where I see the card of eagle in the medicine deck, the book say's it's the great spirit.

Red Deer:

aye Kindred... just as two folk might read the same Tarot spread rather differently

KindredFIame:

It's all based around MY interpretation of the cards.

you got it Red Deer

Owlbear:

I just meant to pose a food for thought question. Regardless of correspondences and an individuals meaning ...it's interesting to see which represent yes and no

KindredFIame:

Kind of like for some people, a certain line-up of cards in tarot may mean pregnancy, but for others, it could mean that the person feel alone.

true Owl, very true

moonListener:

so could the "directions" just as easily (accurately) be labeled yes/no ?

KindredFIame:

I'm not sure i get what you mean mL

like have the right side be yes and the left mean no?

moonListener:

as opposed to labeling n-s/e-w

moonListener:

up/down =yes... l/r=no?

KindredFIame:

oh, of course, I was just trying to set a shape to think about.

moonListener:

great.. thanks.

Nite Child:

shouldn't all questions be asked at end????

KindredFIame:

they can be, but they can also be addressed here, I don't mind.

MafiaMama3:

does it really matter? please continue, KF

KindredFIame:

The pendulum is usually used for readings on yourself, not others...

Emer:

Do you think it is possible to *learn* to use a certain tool even if you aren't totally connected with it? For example I want to learn to use the pendulum but I have many troubles with it.

KindredFIame:

No, not impossible Emer, but very hard.

Kinda like beating your head against a brick wall, just to learn for it not to hurt. At least, that's how it is for me.

When doing readings for other people..most choose tools like the runes, the tarot, palmistry, handwriting analysis..and.. duh duh duh duh

Medicine cards.

Owlbear:

connection may be made if you can look inward and see if there is a "block" to using a particular tool....some just don't speak to us but some have lots of energy we may not wish on some level to/access

MafiaMama3:

medicine cards i have never heard of

KindredFIame:

Medicine cards come from the native american culture

MafiaMama3:

ahhh

KindredFIame:

And instead of using things from symbols and places like Tarot, they use animals.

For instance- The owl, the Lynx, the Raven

MafiaMama3:

are they used as tarot are used?

wrenwhoflies:

I have them I love them Great topic yeah yeah yeah!!!

KindredFIame:

Sometimes.

MafiaMama3:

ok

KindredFIame:

Each animal has it's own attributes that are supposedly all their own.

And each animal has a theme.

The owl being deception, the lynx being secrets, the raven being magick, and so on and so on...

MafiaMama3:

ok,,so how do they work?

Emer:

So do you think that someone who is quite good at reading tarot could use Medicine cards?

KindredFIame:

Well Emer, that's an interesting, cause..

I really don't get along well with Tarot, it's very complicated and has a lot to do with humans and their actions and feelings..which are extremely unchartable.

But i get along wonderfully with M.C. There's less to remember, and more room for habitual behavior.

Animals will do the same things over and over, but humans go out of their way to change, just to mess with your head.

MafiaMama3:

and that is the difference between the 2 sets of cards?

KindredFIame:

That's only the difference for me Mama

MafiaMama3:

i see

KindredFIame:

it could be different for you or someone else.

MafiaMama3:

ok, gotcha

KindredFIame:

Once again, it's all based on interpretation.

I found though, that after I got involved with M.C., I got much better at Tarot.

So usually, I recommend doing M.C.'s before Tarot, just to get to know how to give a good reading.

Red Deer:

interesting proposition Kindred

KindredFIame:

Some basic rules to giving a reading for someone else are-

(thanks RED DEER)

1. always use the words might, maybe, sometimes, etc..If you use the words will, certain, must and so on.. they'll get the idea that something WILL happen, and it makes it more likely for the matter at hand to occur

2. NEVER tell someone they are going to DIE. Once again, sticking that thought inside their heads will only make it more likely.

3. Be honest with the person. If you see something bad, tell them. Just make it clear that the bad even MIGHT happen. Not WILL happen.

Some things you might want to do while in the reading are-

1. Try to read the person's body language. If a person plays with their lips or ears, it usually mean that they want to interrupt. If a person folds their arms and legs and sits back, holding on to their purse or wallet...it is more than likely means that they are uncomfortable (duh)

If a person is being difficult and not answering questions, try to open them up. Sometimes they just don't believe what you're saying, and want to play the old game of "let's test the fortune teller".

Just pay attention to their actions and expressions, it'll do you more good than imaginable.

Nite Child:

question how do you feel about charging for readings???

KindredFIame:

Well, I'm kinda torn on it. I usually do mine for free, unless I'm pressed for cash.

melilot:

why kindred it's a talent like all others

KindredFIame:

Most of their readings I get are people who have no where else to turn, or people who are just casually interested.

MafiaMama3:

KF, i gotta tell ya, it sounds like you're talking bout how to be a fraudulent reader, no offense intended, if it isn't in the cards, then where is it? why all the body language stuff, etc?

KindredFIame:

If they're a friend, I just ask them to put it their "favor tab"

Well mama, the cards can be right, and you can be right, but if the person isn't open enough to listen, what's the point.

MafiaMama3:

am just getting a bit confused is all

KindredFIame:

Trying to make them more comfortable only helps everyone, and makes the experience more fun for everybody.

And if you're charging them, it's important to make them feel good about the reading, so they'll come back.

Body language is important in any situation, but especially in this one I think.

Cloudburst:

KF, may I speak to Mama's Q?

KindredFIame:

sure thing Cloud

MafiaMama3:

i understand that, KF, but the folks in here that i have met, have shown me that they r true to what they preach, hon, this card thing is just kinda iffy in my mind

Sigmarachnar:

i think you use body language to interact with people anyway so why should a reading be different, no intent to interrupt intended

Cloudburst:

When you're reading for someone else, it's not just a divination situation, it's kind of a counseling one too

KindredFIame:

Well, like I said, maybe it's not for you. I like doing public readings, but you might only do them for yourself and friends, where those things don't matter, it's all a matter of personal style.

Cloudburst:

The person may not ask a question if you ask if they have one - if you can tell they want to say something via body language, may provide a useful opening for them

MafiaMama3:

ok, please continue

melilot:

i personally would return to a reader based on the quality of their reading not on if i had a good time

KindredFIame:

I agree Cloud, nicely put, and thanks.

True Meli.. but if it were a GREAT reading, and a really mean/uncomfortable person, would you still go back? or at least as readily as if it were a good time?

Cloudburst:

that happens with readings for friends, too, though usually with someone you know you're aware of their attitudes, etc. without having to CONSCIOUSLY read their body language

Sigmarachnar:

yes, melilot, but if the person is to afraid of interrupting and you can not tell they want to ask something they may not learn things that they need to or want to

Cloudburst:

...you probably are reading their body language all the same - just so used to them you don't know you're doing it

Warmuth:

are we talking only about tarot??

Sigmarachnar:

what about druid animal oracles? if i may ask and what your opinion to tarot and M.C.

tarot and M.C. compared to druid animal oracles

KindredFIame:

I'm not really familiar with the Druid animal oracles, so I really can't make a comparison.

Sorry.

Warmuth:

you are talking about apples and oranges..Sig

KindredFIame:

Since there are only another ten minutes, I'm just gonna go over some things real quick, and then take questions, k?

Sigmarachnar:

thats ok, i just feel that sometimes they provide a different perspective to the same question, more perspectives is good =-)

Red Deer:

I believe that, regarding most all divinatory tools

Warmuth:

two major types of divination...operational and natural

Red Deer:

the point is for the user to have a coherent symbolic set from which they draw (or are drawn into) the reading

IrishWitch:

Kindred, you go girl

Red Deer:

and different users may use different symbol sets for the SAME tool, but come up with the same outcome

KindredFIame:

Some basic ways of divination are:

The pendulum

The candle flame method - where you light a candle and direct a questions towards the flame. Then watch to see what direction the flame burns, right or left.

MafiaMama3:

i read about that today

KindredFIame:

Just decide which side means what before you start.

Smoking - no, not the cigarettes, but incense. And that's done the same way a candle would be.

crystal ball scrying -where you basically look into a ball and see what you see...or take water the let it drip on the top of the ball. Then depending what direction it drips, yes or no is your answer

Tarot

Medicine Cards

Inner Child Cards

Power Cards

Inner Spirit Cards

Runes

I Ching

Biblomancy

Stichomancy

A few last notes on divinatory tools -Use what works for you, and interpret things on instinct, not on a book.

Red Deer:

so Kindred, you're saying basically, "It's my party and I'll scry if I want to."?

MafiaMama3:

ROFLMAO

KindredFIame:

LOL, yeah, I guess

Red Deer:

(sorry El)

moonListener:

lmao

Warmuth:

three basic divinatory response forms....Binary...symbolic...and selective

Emer:

LOL RED DEER

KindredFIame:

As with anything else, don't press YOUR interpretations on anyone else.. it's different for everyone, and what holds true for you might not for your husband/brother/sister/wife/whatever

Know your tool! Before you go off to a party and do readings for fun...

Red Deer:

folk, I need to close the logs, but PLEASE continue this wonderful conversation!

Thanks for a great discussion KindredFLAME

MafiaMama3:

ok, KF, can we do my reading off the log?

KindredFIame:

Thanks!

I'll try.

Elenya:

{{{{{{{Kindred}}}}}}}} great class

MafiaMama3:

great

wrenwhoflies:

Thanks

KindredFIame:

{{{{El}}}} thanks

Flidais:

wonderful class Kin

KindredFIame:

Thank you everybody..

wrenwhoflies:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{kindred}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

WICCA101:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Kindred}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Very well done

KindredFIame:

thank you.

IrishWitch:

Well done, Kindred!

Emer:

Great class KF

Red Deer:

thanks again for a great class, Kindred