MORRIGAN:

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA 101! THIS EVENING WE WILL HAVE AN OPEN FLOOR DISCUSSION OF THE MABINOGION.

PLEASE KEEP ALL MM, BB, AND MP AND SIDE CONVERSATIONS IN IM DURING CLASS.

DISRUPTERS WILL BE WARNED ONCE AND THEN EXCLUDED.

In case of disaster {g} could one or two of you who plan on attending the entire class please log as back up?

melilot:

{---logging

Herne:

ALL RIGHT, WHO HERE HAS READ THE MABINOGION?

melilot:

Not me

SeannochMhor:

Chatty... is Herne now leading?

Musashii:

{..has read parts

MORRIGAN:

He's starting the discussion, but feel free to join in Seannoch.

Gara Dun:

bits and pieces

SeannochMhor:

{--has read it.. used to have a copy.

Conall Crnach:

{{----studied it profusely...owns 2 copies of original Lady Charlotte Guest version.

SeannochMhor:

go for it Herne

Herne:

Conall, will you tell us what the Mabinogion represents to us, the descendants of the Celts?

CynaraMac:

Please do Conal

ConallCrnach:

Perhaps...but I'm here more to listen than to teach...{s}

CynaraMac:

But it seems none here wants to lead, so please say something.

Herne:

Inner knowledge of gnosis of the mysteries cannot be conveyed by means of mere academic study. The Mabinogion being as it is the repository of the British mystery traditions can't be opened as a book and it's mysteries read from. Participation is required. One must ones self become a participant in the stories, only by such a way will initiation be conferred.

SeannochMhor:

In the Mabinogion, lessons taught to me are to be careful of ones geases and to learn from the wise ones and the Cailleach.

Nestor:

and in addition we get to see a society in actions which has heroic values similar to the Homeric Greeks.

Herne:

Yes Sean

Menua:

I would of thought a Druid would speak on this matter?

Nestor:

yes I would hope so!

Herne:

In order to participate you must enter into the world where in the mysteries of the Mabinogion take place, the otherworld there to meet the great archetypes face to face.

SeannochMhor:

very similar to the Greeks in that the Milesians influences in Celtic tradition were effected prior to the writing of the text.

Nestor:

Sean, or Conall or Cynara

Boudica:

We also see the roots of what will become the Arthurian legends, albeit a bit more worked over by the time it gets to the English translations....

Herne:

To enter into the otherworld you must go through a door that enters into the hollow hills. Look as you may with your day to day sight you will not find it. The acs dana, the Druids are

SeannochMhor:

Entering into the mysteries, one not only understand the parallels of their life w/ the heroes, but also becomes one with the creation around them and meets with the dark hag of their lifetime. For their initiation and their quest... similar to Gwalmachi.

Herne:

their wise ones, the acs dana the Druids, they are gone also and their teachings transmitted by oral tradition are gone too. A whole world has passed away, cut down, destroyed and buried by the Romans, the Christians and their lineal descendants. But all has not passed away. The indomitable spirit of the Celtic peoples, it yet survives.

Menua:

For some, maybe.

Nestor:

yet we can seek glimpses of that world through the Mabinogion. especially the first four tales of the Four Branches.

Herne:

The people who came out of the Darkness, The ancient Celts are gone, and their great dark forests with stretched from horizon to horizon they are gone too.

Nestor:

out of this book like the cauldron of Ceridwen my fly drops to inspire us.

SeannochMhor:

The four branches of the Ana Druidh the historian, the law givers, the senachic, and the priests.

Nestor:

within the Clas Merdin (Myrddin Enclosure) that these stories of the Cymric take place--and they should be viewed in that context.

Herne:

The Mabinogion is a rich heritage, the repository of the British Mystery traditions, preserved for us by the story tellers and written down by scholars, it represents your Celtic heritage.

Nestor:

one of the interesting things that the reader finds in the first tale is the immediate association with sovereignty and the Goddess and the horse.

Menua:

Were they not tales, intertwined with some fact and fiction?

Freinsch:

Nestor, would you elaborate on that?

Nestor:

When Rhiannon appears on the White Horse the knowledge of the duties of the king are made clear to Pwyll

Herne:

They take place both in the real world and also within the ever present otherworld.

Nestor:

He must bring to Goddess to his hearth

Menua:

Was my question not a valid one?

Herne:

In order to advantage oneself of the mysteries one must enter into them.

I answered it Menua

Menua:

Oh.

Herne:

In order to participate in the mysteries the door to the other world must be opened for you that you may enter.

Menua:

How do we open this door?

Nestor:

Menua -- some of the tales may have originally come from other tales associated with 'real people' -- but Goddess and Gods are still very 'real' too.

Herne:

A skillful and inspired retelling of the stories affecting your imaginations might very well accomplish this.

Menua:

I agree, the Goddess and Gods are very real, even today as in old

CynaraMac:

Tonight's class is very interactive...'tis good

Nestor:

Menua -- you might find the exercises in John and Caitlin Mathews' "The Western Way: very helpful in your search.

Nestor:

also RJ Stewart's "Underworld Initiations"

Freinsch:

Let's move back to the Mab.

Menua:

Thanks Nestor.

Nestor:

Yes Freinsch

Herne:

OK, those of you who have read the Mabinogion please speak up

SeannochMhor:

'tis well and good this class... the gates open to the sojourner as it was in the old days.

Nestor:

I have read it several times.

Freinsch:

We talked of the interaction between real people and the stories

melilot:

{--has never read it

CynaraMac:

{{..nor I

Freinsch:

Nestor, you said something about the relationship between horsed, the Goddess and sovereignty.

CynaraMac:

Pray, tell us about it

Menua:

I read it long ago, but my memory fails me, must reread it after tonight.

Cathbad:

{--read a little of it, but it was a long time ago.

melilot:

was hoping to get some idea of what it contained not on theories of enlightenment

Herne:

excellent, what positions does the story teller have in both the preservation and the conveying of the mysteries?

Nestor:

Yes, that is a feature of much of Celtic mythos from what I have seen

Boudica:

I have read the book, and I find a completely different picture.

MORRIGAN:

What is the meaning behind that relationship Nestor?

Nestor:

both in the Welsh and Irish traditions Sovereignty is also related to the gorse and the land.

SeannochMhor:

a search for self in the realm...meeting a dark or ugly hag (the Caillcach in other Celtic trads) and understanding the initiation of the hag.

Herne:

Boudica, what do you find?

Nestor:

both movement and change --and stability --both at the same time

ConallCrnach:

The concepts of "life-death-rebirth", the archetypal milestones of initiation, are prevalent throughout the tales told within the Mabinogion..

Nestor:

Indeed Connall

Freinsch:

Conal, please hold that thought a moment.

Freinsch:

Let's explore what Boud's ideas are for a moment.

MORRIGAN:

What are they Boudica?

Boudica:

Taken from a historical reference, I see a picture of how life was during the 11 to 13 cent CE, when this material was written down.

SeannochMhor:

life.. death.. rebirth is the cycle of the Mother and the two faced God, her consort.

Herne:

Yes, Conall, the central theme of Mabon and Modron, the archetypes runs throughout the four branches.

Boudica:

The Welsh had one thing in common with the Irish, most of their history was Oral Tradition.

MORRIGAN:

So you don't see them as anything more than Folk Tales Boudica?

Nestor:

yes Boudica--the text are obviously of pre-Christian origin which the monks writing them down adding the Christianize over-gloss.

Boudica:

When it was finally committed to paper, it was written in the light of the time. We see a mix of Old Celtic and Welsh heroes and gods and godess, mixed with the new Christian traditions coming at that time.

Herne:

and most of that disappeared with the acs dana, the Druids, luckily the story tellers preserved it and preserve it still, conveying initiation.

Freinsch:

Can we further explore rebirth/regeneration?

Boudica:

No, as with Homer and his Troy, I see that a lot of the material could be correlated with Welsh history, but mostly, by the time it was committed to paper, it is moral stories mixed with hero stories.

SeannochMhor:

Oral tradition as passed down through professional Bairdh clerks in transcription.

Freinsch:

I am thinking about the cauldron that revives, but leaves the revived mute.

Nestor:

I can agree with you on that Boudica --it seems that the editing by the monks was somewhat heavy handed (luckily) and can be seen.

SeannochMhor:

The bards had extensive training to memorize the mnemonic verse without error for over fourteen years prior to them given their mantles.

Gara Dun:

folk tales are often based on real events the written texts occurred because people learned to write. Because they're written doesn't make them any less 'real'.

Boudica:

A lot of the material also comes from the Irish tales of an earlier period. The cauldron is a mirror image of the Cauldron of Dagda.

Nestor:

well Friensch as one of the cauldrons featured in the Mabinogion -- it has to do with initiation into the mysteries of death and rebirth.

Boudica:

And references are made to the 5 sons of Ireland and the 5 divisions of Ireland (I had to throw that in Morrigan {g})

Herne:

the Gifts that the Tuatha De Danaan bestowed onto y

Nestor:

which leaves the persons 'dumb' or unable to speak about it.

MORRIGAN:

{bg}

Potatoetoe:

As songs the bards sung they conveyed traditions, that produced changes of images in the mind of the listener

Nestor:

either by being unable to convey the meaning or by Oath

Herne:

The Stone of Destiny, the Spear of Lugh, the Sword of Nuada and the Cauldron of the Dagda. Claim them for they are yours and with their aide restore the world.

SeannochMhor:

The cauldron of the test... a very real test and initiation to the otherworld.

Nestor:

Note also the cauldron of knowledge in the tale of Taliesin

SeannochMhor:

and the cauldron of the initiation of the Mordraut in Arthurian tales

Nestor:

or making it internal to the individual. See how Taliesin understand the future for himself when he has licked or sucked the three drops from his thumb

Boudica:

The cauldron can also be seen as the Grail, if you look closely enough, but this is what I am getting at. The story evolves with time location and who writes it.

Herne:

All right, most here have not read the Mabinogion, don't even believe perhaps in the existence of the otherworld other than spooks and see no use in it even if it did exist. so what is to be gained by them in perusing a course of study into the ancient Mysteries?

Boudica:

Herne, there may be mysteries here that warrant further examination, but we don't want to stretch the imagination that far. For the most part, the Mabinogion is a story of peoples, not a religious experience.

ConallCrnach:

If memory serves, most of all of the known stories within the Mabinogion were culled from the Red Book of Hergest...one of the four volumes making up the *Four Ancient Books of Wales*?

CynaraMac:

Spooks, ghosts, they are real, no? Melilot: just because I have not read the book does not mean I have no interest in the other world or is the Mabinogion the only access to the information on the other world?

Freinsch:

Herne, some are here that haven't read it, but they are welcome to listen and contribute what they will.

CynaraMac:

Here, here Mel

Herne:

Forgive me, but I am facilitating this discussion, and since most here have not read the book I would like those of you who have and to understand what it offers to tell them

Azrael:

I'm interested in the other world, I'd like to meet something from the other world, wraith, ghost, spook, whatever...

Potatoetoe:

people are a religious experience

Freinsch:

Now, let's continue the discussion please

Herne:

Otherwise they may come away from this discussion without that understanding

Nestor:

both the Red Book of Hergest and the White Book of Rhydderch were used in the translation by Gwen Jones and Thomas Jones

CynaraMac:

Perhaps someone could give a two or three sentence overview of what the story has to impart?

melilot:

i may come away without understanding from any discussion regardless of what is said

Nestor:

well Cynaramac there are 11 tales on the usually translation

CynaraMac:

Too much to impart in a sentence of two Nestor, then?

Nestor:

the first Four make up a cycles store about Pwyll

SeannochMhor:

Herne the interpretation of the stories and the mores therein the book are for the reader to take in heart and soul. what you have gleaned from your readings are different than I, yet they ... no less valid.

Nestor:

yes It would be rather difficult

Herne:

For everyone Sean, why should they bother to read the book at all?

CynaraMac:

Never mind {shrinks away}

Nestor:

except to say that men and Gods can live and work together and can learn and support themselves with the knowledge gained there in but still can not avoid the natural cycles of things

SeannochMhor:

inquiring minds and sojourners are usually interested in enriching their selves to want to read those things that pertain to their path or heritage.

qadesh:

oop sorry....Nestor you say translations , what language is the Mabinogion written in?

Nestor:

Cymric or Welsh

CynaraMac:

What does that mean Nestor?

Gara Dun:

which is Welsh to rest of us

SeannochMhor:

I read it as a search for my heritage within literature and got an insight to my path and geas

Nestor:

later translated in to a Normanized Latin

Herne:

Excuse me, but can we present the Mabinogion as a whole, what it signifies, what it offers, how to access what it offers and then discuss the different branches and their central theme

CynaraMac:

Oh, So there is a Y in Gaelic tongues?

Herne:

at least?

Catspawn:

what is geas?

Nestor:

yes in Welsh is a very prominent letter

melilot:

I would rather find out about the different tales contained in the Mabinogion

SeannochMhor:

geas is the term for the taboos that are given to the heroes in the stories and..

melilot:

do they serve to show the different aspects of life and the living of it

Catspawn:

ah

SeannochMhor:

the consequences for violating them as Cu Cullainn with refusing women or eating dog flesh.

Nestor:

besides the core 4 tales there are 2 other very great import --Culhwch and Olwen ( the first of the written Arthurian tales ) and Taliesin (which is an independent tales added to the core grouping by other translators)

Potatoetoe:

Oral traditions convey the unwritten moral laws of the people of their origin, the moral codes are based in the religions of the peoples.

Herne:

meliliot, all the tales of the Mabinogion revolve around a revolve around a central theme that is universal

Gara Dun:

query are the tales the equivalent of the medieval morality plays?

SeannochMhor:

they predate the Morality plays.

melilot:

but the tales have very different information to give don't they or there would not be the need for more than one tale

Gara Dun:

understood but do they convey the same meaning

SeannochMhor:

not in the strict sense. they cover a more general aspect of social awareness within the context of the tribal groups of Cymri

Herne:

they are complementary to one another melliliot

Nestor:

well the Culhwch and Olwen also related to an underworld journey by Arthur and some 250 followers of which only 7 return in their attempt to cauldron of Annwyn once again an initiation and return to the real world

qadesh:

any idea what regions these tribes inhabited? Sean?

Potatoetoe:

The discussion of the tales are about what is heroic and virtuous conduct, and conveys a tie to the web of life

SeannochMhor:

and then there is the "chess" game of Arthur and Olwynn in their armies battles .. and about the ravens during the battle.

Gara Dun:

so on the one hand they are for lack of a better term morality tales and on the other a description of the beliefs of the Cymri

simnun:

when do these supposedly take place ,the 6th or 7th centuries? ..and, do they propose to be histories, or are they fables?

Potatoetoe:

the cauldron is like a mothers womb

qadesh:

I think folklore simnun

CynaraMac:

Good analogy Potatoe

simnun:

how is that different from fables?

Herne:

underlying each of the characters in each of the stories are the archetypal images meliliot

Nestor:

and a look at our common pagan past -- it describes a Pagan heroic society not at all unlike those in Bronze age Greece

qadesh:

it sounds better{G}

SeannochMhor:

qadesh-- there were about seven distinct " precincts" that the tribal groups claimed as their territories.

Gara Dun:

folk lore and fables are names given by "civilized peoples" to stories by those who haven't learned to write them down. as if they have no bases in truth

Nestor:

indeed Gara

simnun:

no , that doesn't seem true, folklore and fable often have basis in historical fact.. but it doesn't make them accurate histories,,

Gara Dun:

or to non-christianized people since the Greek and romans could very well write

Nestor:

yet as with Schleiman and Troy --the more we are learning about the archaeology of the Celtic world the more these tales become real

Freinsch:

Can we discuss how numbers were used in the story. 3 and 7 were very frequent .

qadesh:

so this is not a scroll of some sort then gara?

Nestor:

no the text are in a bound volume

Gara Dun:

correct me if I'm wrong Nestor but they were written down around the 10th/11th CE

Nestor:

well 7 is often see a number of completions and finality

simnun:

about events of the recent past or the dim past?

qadesh:

but have been in existence since ??BC correct?

Gara Dun:

in the oral tradition

SeannochMhor:

3 was and is still considered the number for the spirit realm....man's number is four and ...seven is the joining of the spirit to the physical nature.

CynaraMac:

What about 6, Sean?

Nestor:

yes Gara that is the time of the writing down but apparently (since I cant read Welsh or Normanize Latin) I have to take the translators words for it --the literary souses and linguistics revel

melilot:

OK so this is a book written from peoples verbal history and then interpreted by another set of people

Freinsch:

Herne, it is to get people a chance to read and discuss aspects that are important to them

Herne:

So far the Mabinogion

MORRIGAN:

well, why not have people add their questions and understandings to the end of the classlogs then?

badgey:

Friensh...are you going to post the next book soon?

melilot:

well quit picking such thick books first time around {G}

ZoeFoe:

Thanks guys :}

Freinsch:

No, We aren't' going to be able to write a critique after our discussions, but we will have others' insights.

Gara Dun:

and to feel the power of these stories you should hear them told or sung as it where by a bard

melilot:

and I think no matter how much you study or don't study any one book Herne you get what you are able to handle from it

Nestor:

well the purpose of this discussion is two-fold -- first to let people know that there are texts which they can read for themselves and hopefully spark their interest in doing so

Herne:

Friensh, without an in depth study of them I doubt that they will even be aware of the aspects that are important to them, remember that the basic definition of an eclectic is a dabbler. We have a saying in the Craft that "Three Firsts do not equal a Third"

Freinsch:

The next book is the Rig Veda ISBN 0-14-044402-5

Grey Myst:

Oh I've read the RgVeda. I had to for my Hinduism class

Freinsch:

Yes, but every journey starts with a single step.

Nestor:

Friensch --will you please repost that book and a date for the discussion on the wiccan and pagan BBs

melilot:

and under the Wicca 101 topic frein

MORRIGAN:

good idea Nestor

Freinsch:

Sure, we could talk about each branch for an hour or longer, but everyone has constraints on their time. That can be done in a different forum.

Herne:

It just bugs me to see the entire mystery tradition of the Britons which is invaluable to us their descendants as a source for power and transformation treated as if it were a not to interesting

Freinsch:

Sure Nestor. I will repost after class

Nestor:

thanks

ConalICrnach:

{{--------being summoned to Eamhain Macha--MP BB

Herne:

novel, or something that no one but a boring old scholar would bother to read

Freinsch:

I think the sheer number of folks here show interest. Unfortunately, time is a factor. Perhaps you should start a Mab discussion group.

Gara Dun:

Nestor or Herne do you think that an understanding of the texts is helped by understanding the society where it originated?

Nestor:

yes indeed Gara

MORRIGAN:

That's where discussion on the BB could come in

Herne:

I am reminded of the Indiana Jones movies and his use of the religious symbols of various cultures as props

Freinsch:

Good point Chatty

Nestor:

that was one of the reasons I had hope that some more of our Celtic scholars and Druids had been here

Herne:

I may do that Friensh

ZoeFoe:

Chat, I thought someone was trying to start a reading group on the BB.

MORRIGAN:

thanks Freinsch, I thought so too!

Gara Dun:

and since most don't grasp the later Dark Ages some of the concepts are hard for them to grasp

Freinsch:

This is it Zoe,

MORRIGAN:

Friensch is Zoe, and this is it

Potatoetoe:

I believe that many hold the texts in reverence and use them as reference

Herne:

They are something to be entered into

Nestor:

well folks --I will see you all during the week --- Blessed be to All

ZoeFoe:

So is Wicca 101 format being changed.

Freinsch:

No Zoe. It was just a one night bookstand (G) thousands of years later?

Nestor:

a much earlier date for the original compositions

Herne:

OK, for any of you thinking that this is a Class and waiting for it to be officially ended or for it to start it is not a class, it is an open discussion, so don't feel that you have to stand on

CynaraMac:

Thanks Herne... 'tis better this way.

Herne:

ceremony, jump in ask your questions or jump out if your bored

simnun:

does venerability enhance their spiritual qualities, is older inherently better?

CynaraMac:

Sitting and listening is good, but too much like a church

SeannochMhor:

six is the multiple of three....usually in reference to the underworld.....as the six seeds that Persephone swallowed, or the six days of the trial of the Astarte decent.

MORRIGAN:

thanks Herne for pointing that out!

Herne:

Well, I think that a more ordered presentation is preferable but there's nothing stopping us from doing one later. LOL Chatty,

melilot:

bless you cyn now be a good girl and we'll go for ice cream after church oops class {EG}

simnun:

should we not ask questions?

MORRIGAN:

ask simnun!

simnun:

OK..

CynaraMac:

Oh, so no hope for that number then Sean?

melilot:

sure simnun ask away

Gara Dun:

no older is not necessarily better but some knowledge has been lost with man's rush to have scientific answers to all things

simnun:

I was just wondering as a procedural thing, I have none at the moment..

Nestor:

and this text is a opening into the Celtic mind

Aziel:

still class?

melilot:

no class has ended it's past 10

Freinsch:

It would have been nice to have the tales from pre-Christian era, unfortunately, we only have the Christianized version

Herne:

This is not a class Aziel

Nestor:

Aziel --it has be an 'open discussion' rather than a formal class

Azrael:

Is class over yet?

melilot:

very formal aziel you need black tie {G}

Nestor:

lol meli

Potatoetoe:

but a lot of science may prove the cosmology, I see the cauldron also in the paradox of a black hole/white hole combination.

badgey:

Are we basically done?

Freinsch:

Folks. I apologize that we didn't have a moderator for the class. I would have done it had I known I was going to be able to attend tonight.

melilot:

I will now have to read the book like I don't have enough to read now

Herne:

MM Badgey, yes

MORRIGAN:

I'm going to keep logging as long as the discussion continues

Freinsch:

Remember--next month is the Rig Veda

MORRIGAN:

unless you are all talked out?

badgey:

I'm not talked out...just confused. {G}

Grey Myst:

is class still on?

melilot:

is this going to be a regular part of Wicca 101 to have a monthly discussion on a particular book?

Freinsch:

Discussion is still open.

Herne:

Friensh, you realize of course that these books cannot be gleaned for their true value by such a cursory examination of them?

ZoeFoe:

Which books are we talking about?

badgey:

WE hope so Mel....this was just the first one.

Nestor:

the Mabinogion

qadesh:

Sean.....which regions ... I'm curious also about the time period would these have any relation to the dead sea scrolls?

ZoeFoe:

{G}, thanx Freinsch

MORRIGAN:

{-----logging off now

Potatoetoe: