MORRIGAN:

OK, IF YOU'LL ALL SETTLE DOWN PLEASE - TAKE THE PROVERBIAL SEAT - AND WE'LL GET STARTED

Fongul:

thanks, but it just might be over my head.

Isis Hathor:

OK, I'm quiet now... lol

MORRIGAN:

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA 101! Tonight we are having an open discussion of reincarnation.

Nestor:

:: lies down on the Greek couch and has the serving girl bring him a kratx of wine::

MORRIGAN:

There is no teacher to pose the thoughts so if you have questions or opinions now is the time to voice them

ShadowGate:

OK first I should say I believe in reincarnation

MORRIGAN:

I personally am very interested in hearing what others opinions are on this. Since I also must ward the door. The bulk of the discussion will be up to those participating

PAniteowl:

may I Chatty?

MORRIGAN:

so.... go for it PA

PAniteowl:

reincarnating is not like cloning

MORRIGAN:

wait a minute

AshamanDrake:

lemme take a number after PA, chatty

MORRIGAN:

is anyone else logging for back up?

mysticwinds:

Not I.

PAniteowl:

it is more like an imprinted circuit board of memories

Red Deer:

{--- logger

PAniteowl:

the circuit board can be called many things, soul, genetic pattern, DNA

MORRIGAN:

and... please hold all greetings, farewells and side conversations in IM so as not to distract the class.

PAniteowl:

but many experience deja vu... and many remember others or recognize others from somewhere in the past although they have not met in this life. places are familiar, situations are recognized and people are known. reincarnation is not a reproduction or exact duplicate of a pattern lived through before but if you accept the Karmic awareness ... you bring with you the good, the bad, and the ugly, and hopefully, try to get it right this time around

Red Deer:

what would be the point of that, PA?

PAniteowl:

IMHO ... that is my feeling of reincarnation ...

Red Deer:

(question was about "exact duplicate")

PAniteowl:

{G} I don't believe in an exact, RD ... but some memories, once learned, are hard to forget or ignore

RedStar:

(like Stones talking to you...LOL)

Sgian Dubh:

When you felt the pain that I felt is that what you mean, PA?

Red Deer:

aye, dear, my question was rhetorical... when you said it is NOT an exact pattern, I indirectly agreed

PAniteowl:

Yes Sgian ...

Nestor:

I think this brings up the concept Red Deer of the possibility and ideas of re-incarnation as a method of "spiritual evolution" of the soul

PAniteowl:

{BTW ... Will says Hi & well met to all friends of Spam (G)}

Frozen Poet:

I tend to agree with PA, and I'd like to pass on a related belief. I believe experiences can be passed on genetically; my children know things I've never told them.

PAniteowl:

I agree Poet

snowchild:

a psychic lady told me that I was here to fix myself up the last time, but I have no idea who said that.

MORRIGAN:

I'd like to hear more about that idea Nestor. I think I agree with it

Nestor:

while this was not a part of early Archaic Greek thought --it had begun to appear by the Classical period and developed more fully and openly in the Hellenistic period --the soul evolves

Red Deer:

{--- is not sure about the passing on being genetic, but is sure it happens

PAniteowl:

but also, there are other ways of communication that your children are receiving from you {this is also like the situation with you and I Sgian}

Nestor:

it is that the purpose of re-incarnation was to elevate the soul into a level of purification

Frozen Poet:

Scary though, isn't it? Does that mean they'll know about all the weird sex I had with their Mom?

Red Deer:

probably, but they deny it

Frozen Poet:

PA, I know what you mean, but I don't think I'm that psychic.

Nestor:

now so of the more mystical of the Greek thinker held that it was possible there by to elevate oneself to the level of the Gods --but I am not ready to go that far

Frozen Poet:

And it seems too specific.

snowchild:

poet, I agree with your idea, I got all sorts of weird memories from my parents, and yes even sex came up

Red Deer:

I prefer not to think of it in terms of purification, for that implies that the soul can be unclean

Sgian Dubh:

At what point does the soul reach purity Nestor?

PAniteowl:

how about ... maturing, RD?

Red Deer:

works well for me PA

Nestor:

OK good point Red Deer --it would rather be a refinement or maturing

PAniteowl:

{G}

Xori:

I think that is a good way to put it PA

Nestor:

Sgain that was tie with more of the Pythagorians and their doctrines

PAniteowl:

Sgian ... you have an old soul .. that is why it was easy to read you, IMHO

Nestor:

but many of the "Mystery schools" seem to have parallel ideas

PAniteowl:

RD ... you are ANCIENT!!! {G}

Red Deer:

I'M ONLY 40!!!

MORRIGAN:

lol

snowchild:

this lifetime

PAniteowl:

heheheh ... not in my chronology {G}

Red Deer:

but have spent 10 times that with El

PAniteowl:

agrees ... RD & El have been together many times

Red Deer:

and in more ways than one!

MORRIGAN:

OK so it is my opinion that each time we go around we get a bit closer to "perfecting". Is that what you mean Nestor?

Sgian Dubh:

I know that I have been here many times and Owl felt my death in one

Nestor:

yes in rough terms yes

PAniteowl:

Nestor, the Cayce institute has volumes of research on this subject and it's uses in the present lifetime

Nestor:

I am not sure on what the finer details are but that is the general case

Xori:

analogy

RedStar:

and Jewel and I PA?

MORRIGAN:

and then we get to a certain point where incarnating isn't necessary anymore?

PAniteowl:

Sgian .. because that is the one that you still must deal with .. if we had more time, I'd like to work with you again

Red Deer:

{--- I don't accept that premise

MORRIGAN:

What is your analogy Xori?

Nestor:

yes --or we get shifted to another realm

Red Deer:

chatties, I mean

MORRIGAN:

what is your opinion Red Deer?

Sgian Dubh:

Our next meeting dear lady

PAniteowl:

Jewel is older than you RedStar ...

may it be sooner than anticipated Sgian {G}

Red Deer:

I believe that perfection, ie being "pure spirit" would quickly become boring... and to spend the rest of eternity that way pretty much equates

Xori:

well - I relate it to school in order to explain it - it's like you experience a grade, and then pass the veil - like summer - if you've passed the grade, you graduate to the next grade

Red Deer:

with the Christian idea of heaven for me

Xori:

until you finely graduate

Red Deer:

I believe that so long as the Web is unfolding, there is infinite potential for development... we CAN NOT finish evolving

RedStar:

I would have to agree with Red Deer....

Red Deer:

Besides, why would we want to?

snowchild:

I always felt you live and become what you feel you are ready for when you die and when you get really bored you just reincarnate

Xori:

I agree on that point RD - and also Nestor - I'm not sure about a final graduation

PAniteowl:

I agree with Red Dear {G} .. we are at the beginning of something extraordinary

Nestor:

or the Gods reach down and pull you across into Their realm as Their mark on your spirit

Red Deer:

Then, we would no longer experience the sublime existence we have in the physical - which we all recognize as sacred

MORRIGAN:

well, my ideas are pretty abstract, but I think that when we get to that point we are given, or choose, another task to complete

Sgian Dubh:

I must agree with RD myself

Red Deer:

I also don't picture the changes as linear... not a progression from a to z through b,c,d,etc

Nestor:

that too Chattie can well be included in the spiritual evolution of the soul --the Task of the Gods --in addition to the Hero Quest or Journey

PAniteowl:

We have been given the opportunity to experience the Web as an actual fact through technology now available ...

MORRIGAN:

I've read that not all choose to incarnate, but stay on the "other side" doing other things like greeting newcomers, being guardians, or guides etc

PAniteowl:

we have no concept of the extent or size of the web

FireHeart:

Chat, I believe that as well.

Red Deer:

we don't even have a real concept of the part of it science has allowed us to perceive... much less the rest

PAniteowl:

hmmmm .. like learning a skill and putting it to the Karmic good? Chatty

MORRIGAN:

yes, like that

Sgian Dubh:

The web brought some of us together and I believe it has changed us

PAniteowl:

hmmmm ... I think I could accept that premise Chatty

Nestor:

true PA -- and there are many areas which each has to explore --but we can still understand its basic concept and functions and employ them to the benefit of all

PAniteowl:

I agree Sgian

Red Deer:

and the changes are reciprocal, Sgian

Janusix:

{---really Sabre.

Red Deer:

as the Web alters us, we in turn alter it

Nestor:

yes Red Deer -so accurate

PAniteowl:

Yes Nestor ... there is a purpose and balance to everything, we just don't know them all, .... yet

FireHeart:

Exactly, Sgian. I know my knowledge has expanded, opening new doors for me from my knowing people here

PAniteowl:

and it gets better, fireheart {G}

Red Deer:

much, PA

Nestor:

it is interesting to note that the Anglo-Saxons mystics often referred to the Universe as a Web

PAniteowl:

so many paths have had the opportunity to link on the web ... I wonder what will come of it???

SRAJ4:

so do many Native Americans

Nestor:

and that changes at other points change us and our position on the Web and reference to others too

MORRIGAN:

I've heard it described as that many times

Red Deer:

and Africans

ViragoWomyn:

as have I

FireHeart:

There are some who believe that one continually reincarnates until their Karmic debt has been paid, ie, their lessons learned. At that time, they "graduate" and become guardians and spirit guides

PAniteowl:

and Eastern Rites

Red Deer:

Even mighty Athena was a "weaver"

Nestor:

yes Red Deer --it seems to be a universal thread shall we say the weaving mythos

Red Deer:

no pun intended, Nestor {g}?

ViragoWomyn:

not to mention the Fates, who also were weavers

Nestor:

lol

PAniteowl:

yes Nestor

Red Deer:

aye!

Nestor:

yes Virago --very true and good thought the Weavers of Fate

Sgian Dubh:

If you look at the Scottish tartan it weaves together the family or clan

ViragoWomyn:

interesting... needlework, especially weaving/crochet, puts me into a trance rather quickly

PAniteowl:

yes Virago ... see, we all know or at least suspect the truths of the universe ... but we're digressing from the original subject, are we not?? {G} surprise, surprise!!!

good point Sgian ... and so true!

MORRIGAN:

This is interesting. I was lead to understand that there were a lot of Wiccan's out there who didn't believe in reincarnation at all.

Nestor:

and notice how even Zeus in the Iliad is wise and willing to leave it as woven by the Fates --despite His personal pain the death of his mortal son Sarpedon

Red Deer:

what is the point of incarnation to begin with?

MORRIGAN:

to grow spiritually

PAniteowl:

opportunity, RD

Red Deer:

opportunity for?

Nestor:

Chat --I think that most Wiccan traditions do include re-incarnation --it is rather a discussion of the mechanics that differ

PAniteowl:

It is a challenge for us to become what we may

MORRIGAN:

there is no way to learn all one needs to learn in one lifespan

FireHeart:

Chat, I've actually never met a Wiccan who did not believe in reincarnation

ski:

mmmmm....maybe some, Chat.. maybe some...

Red Deer:

agreed, Chatty - but if one remained pure spirit, would one need to learn the lessons of physical reality?

ski:

in the twinkling of an eye, ya know...

PAniteowl:

maybe that is our reward, RD ... Physical satisfaction {G}

MORRIGAN:

hmmmm

ski:

as PureSpirit, some say the normal soul departs here then....

ViragoWomyn:

::Falls out of attic::

ski:

...but some return.. the beacons....the "avatars",....

FireHeart:

Red Deer, if one was a pure spirit and on the earth, could it not be that they were here to help others achieve the same thing? or maybe that is the point, Owl

Nestor:

Red Deer --I am not sure that one can remain totally "pure in spirit" ( I know it can not and have not) but the need to re-do the lesson comes from my actions and not some unpure original state

Red Deer:

We look to existence as pure spirit as being sublime...

ski:

yes....FireHeart...nice to believe that way...

Red Deer:

the ability to share intimately, totally, without effort... to merge

PAniteowl:

could be, RD ... I just know I am thankful for many things I have experience here, in this time

MORRIGAN:

I've heard that the work we do here is more difficult, but quicker. Now, why is that work necessary? Karma?

Red Deer:

but perhaps when we are pure spirit, we look to the physical existence as sublime... the ability to be surprised, to have to work at relationship, to have physical pleasure

FireHeart:

actually, in numerology as related to Karma, a 4 is someone who has paid all Karmic Debt and chooses to return to earth to assist someone else learn their lessons, so to speak

PAniteowl:

yes, RD ...

ski:

interesting, FH...

Nestor:

well the Greeks had a concept called "dike" - which is translated often as "justice" but is more like "getting one's due"

Red Deer:

I return to our belief that all acts of pleasure are sacraments of the Lady and Lord. in our physical limitations lie strength - and the ability, even need to learn

PAniteowl:

agree, RD ... because the pleasure they give to us is so overwhelming, that all other physical pleasures are enhanced

ski:

there is a path, which does not use reincarnation....a path which states we already are It...we have just forgotten... nothing to perfect.. already are free and perfect..

Nestor:

yes ski that is held by some and they see life as an "awaking process" but most of the western versions tend to see it as a "struggle" to reach a goal

PAniteowl:

semantics, Ski ... it seems the result may be the same {G}

Nestor:

both may be correct

ski:

waking to, the fact of what already is....no time, ya see,...no time...in the Spirit.. no time, no space... and yes, both may be correct... just different paths..

Red Deer:

I would say Christianized western versions, Nestor. Think of the Song of Amergin...

PAniteowl:

agree, ski

Sgian Dubh:

Are not our children an incarnation of ourselves

Red Deer:

for me it represents not only transmigration

MORRIGAN:

yes Red I think you're right there

Red Deer:

but the thrill of being hunter and hunted

Sgian Dubh:

and don't we become their guides

PAniteowl:

partially Sgian ...

ski:

result is the same... Panite...for sure..

Nestor:

well RD some of the very pagan roman cults as well as many of the "imported" one like Mithraism held that

Red Deer:

the ecstasy of the outcome

PAniteowl:

and yes Sgian, the parallel is there, for are we not children of the Goddess/God

FireHeart:

I agree Sgian

Red Deer:

as above, so below - eh, PA?

PAniteowl:

hehehehe ... yes, RD!!!

Red Deer:

are not all each others' guides, Sgian?

Nestor:

well one of the terms for the Craft has always been "The Hidden Childern of the Goddess"

Sgian Dubh:

that is ture RD

FireHeart:

so true, RD

ski:

boy!! RD, that sounds and feels very unitedlike...so ya have this one's attention!!

MORRIGAN:

referring to what Nestor? Guides and guardians?

Red Deer:

especially if the greatest gift a teacher (or guide) receives is to have students surpass them...

Nestor:

the Brother and Sister of the Craft are the Hidden Childern... in the initiation you are being re-born

PAniteowl:

and if, in this time, with all of the organized religions expounding on a specific way ...how do we remember the truths of the Web if not by soul memory

ski:

beautiful, RD...

Red Deer:

aye, Nestor... but more and more we come out of hiding

FireHeart:

Red, as in the teacher becomes the student, the student becomes the teacher

Nestor:

from the womb of the Goddess (one of the symbols of the Circle)

ski:

re-born...from physical to Spirit???? Nestor..

PAniteowl:

yes , yes, yes, to all {G}

MORRIGAN:

yes FH, much like we do in our own lives with our parents and our children

Red Deer:

AND reborn from spirit to physical... I think we make it TOO linear and simple... balance again, in all things

PAniteowl:

agree, RD

Nestor:

at least into the Place between the Worlds

ski:

hmmmmm.....

FireHeart:

perhaps it is simple, RD. Sometimes things are so simple, we cannot see or understand them

PAniteowl:

but that is a path we have the free will to choose

Sgian Dubh:

Life is not linear it is a circle

Nestor:

Sgain --excellent point

PAniteowl:

and some, will never come to the circle, but I don't know why

Nestor:

many see it as either a spiral or circle

LordCearnach:

Or, even more to the point, a *spiral*?

Red Deer:

one life (physical) is a circle - the transmigration from life to life revolves the circle into an ever deepening spiral...

FireHeart:

exactly, Nestor

ski:

eventually...all do...that Magnet is Infinite...

Red Deer:

ah, the "spiral dance" - yes Cearnach

Nestor:

that is one of the meaning of the mazes

MORRIGAN:

well put RD

LordCearnach:

::slaps high-five with RD::

Red Deer:

aye, Nestor

PAniteowl:

good job, RD

Red Deer:

{returns high five}

ski:

wheweee!! what a marveeee night!!!!

Red Deer:

hence, the sacred symbol of the cranes' mating dance

RedStar:

it seems to me that you all have just made the Circle...Liner...

MORRIGAN:

good topic pick!

Nestor:

I am reading some works on Sacred Architecture and it seem that many cultures build temples and sacred sites to reflect their theology --and many of the pagan sites are circular

Red Deer:

aye, Nestor - even the Catholics adopted the rotunda

RedStar:

A circle if started at one point....and continually gone around the radius, is in essence a liner feat...

LordCearnach:

Some of the most arcane of symbols relating to the Earth as primal mother-goddess archetype follow an circular and/or spirallic pattern....

PAniteowl:

hmmm ... hadn't realized that, RD

MORRIGAN:

me either PA

Red Deer:

ah, but since it has no beginning nor end, it cannot be truly started at one point - we simply perceive it that way

Nestor:

and the circle is a special case of the ellipse

ViragoWomyn:

circle- not to mention, idea of wedding band, magical girdle, etc

Sgian Dubh:

So if we look at this life as but a point on the wheel , as it turns we evolve and change as it turns

Nestor:

which is one of the structure of the Zodiac

RedStar:

yet though life is A Circle Seldom do We actually get their in an uninterrupted Ray around that Circle...

Red Deer:

as does our own DNA, Cearnach

aye, Sgian

MORRIGAN:

that's right! I never thought of that either RD

Nestor:

DR --and which way does the DNA spiral turn?

PAniteowl:

yes Sgian ... from each turning, a new perspective

LordCearnach:

This is true....

ViragoWomyn:

MM Az

RedStar:

We still get that circle...by Bouncing around the Radii at Differing points rather than an uninterrupted Path.

PAniteowl:

perspective

Red Deer:

you caught me up, Nestor - isn't it widdershins?

ViragoWomyn:

widder, I think...

Nestor:

I believe so

FireHeart:

yes, it does, Red Deer

PAniteowl:

each pluck of the web, reverberates to all of us to some degree

Red Deer:

systems theory, PA

LordCearnach:

Quite an eloquent thought, PA

Nestor:

and then our view of the orbit of the earth around the sun as seen from out side our solar system would be??

PAniteowl:

yep part of the plan, Nestor

Red Deer:

depends upon whether you leave the solar system to galactic north or south, Nestor

Nestor:

ah good point RD

Nestor:

so it becomes a matter of perspective

Red Deer:

AYE!!!

PAniteowl:

there are so many signs to guide us, yet we have to search them out and place them in the perspective of our paths

Red Deer:

ALL is relative

Azrael:

I always thought of it all as a spider web...

LordCearnach:

This is all very insightful...but might it be getting a bit too scientific for those dwelling here who only have a rudimentary idea of the Craft?

Red Deer:

and, pun intended, is therefore related and relating

Nestor:

yes there is an infinite truth --that the orbit occurs

Azrael:

you could come in at any point, and do what we consider the future last time, and do the past, next time.

Red Deer:

yes azreal! the web exists in all times at once

PAniteowl:

I don't think so Cearnach ... it is a basis from which all can extrapolate

Azrael:

So you travel along the web, and do your part on each part of the web, but you can weave each strand at any point.

RedStar:

Lord....Believe it or not.....the workings within the Craft is Very Scientific, and dose adhere to most laws of Physics.....LOL

Sgian Dubh:

But some say that past, present and future all run at the same time

Nestor:

perhaps another time we could work up some information on sacred geometries

Red Deer:

and just because I die here and now, I don't believe that I will necessarily return at a point we call "future"

MORRIGAN:

interesting. So then we could incarnate in say the 1500's then? Is that what you are saying?

Azrael:

Yes Host, that's what I meant :)

Nestor:

Geometry is very important for those on the mystical quest

FireHeart:

I agree Sgian

MORRIGAN:

interesting indeed. Never thought of that

Red Deer:

yes... and our memories of previous incarnations may actually lie in the FUTURE of this world's time line

LordCearnach:

This I'm aware of, indeed, RS...but I was thinking of others here who might not grasp these particular components of the Craft as Science..

Azrael:

You could be reincarnated at any point in time :) not just in the future, so the life you lived before this one could be somewhere in the year 3000 :)

MORRIGAN:

wow.... that's intriguing!

ski:

I'm one of em, LCear...

PAniteowl:

Science has been evolving and only adds to the promise of the beliefs taught by the craft, IMHO

ski:

..kinda lost with "time" talk... but... OK....

Red Deer:

agreed, Owl

Azrael:

That's why I think some people see visions of the future, I think they're just remembering from the last time they were there.

Nestor:

the old Asimov question in the Foundation Trilogy --What is the furthest point from you in the Universe?

ViragoWomyn:

interesting though, Az

FireHeart:

I agree Az

Red Deer:

interesting concept, Azrael... kinda like Merlin living backward in time?

Azrael:

yeah :)

RedStar:

Lord, one of the first things I tell my students to do...before they even get into the Path...Is Learn Science, and Physics...after they have those down Pat...then and Only then Will I teach them any farther into the Path.

Nestor:

great concept AZ

PAniteowl:

dunno about that Az ... because when I "see", I know it can be changed by the will of those who become aware

MORRIGAN:

or like Nostradamus

Red Deer:

consider - we perceive time as linear...

Azrael:

that's why the future could be changed, because you haven't done this part of the web yet, so your weaving of this point on the web affects how the future really comes out :) you can only see the future as it was last time. that's just my opinion :)

Red Deer:

but, if we are in on a linear path enclosed by 2 walls, does that make the potential to travel at right angles to the path impossible? Or just difficult to conceive?

PAniteowl:

then it is the past, AZ and not an absolute future {G}

Nestor:

yes AZ --very good idea --that need more thought here on my part --great concept

Sgian Dubh:

But could that not be the path to begin with Owl?

Red Deer:

is even the past absolute, PA?

ViragoWomyn:

I know this is a non sequitor... but I was reading a book about a year ago, about a culture, in which time was a repetitious spiral... can't remember that name of it, & its driving me nuts

Azrael:

Yeah PA, it would be the past in a way :)

PAniteowl:

dunno, to all of your comments ... {G}

MORRIGAN:

{-----is being a sponge

Valkyrie:

then, is what your saying, that "visions" are actually memories?

ViragoWomyn:

LOL, chattie

PAniteowl:

that's why this is a discussion {G}

Red Deer:

Celtic cultures had a very different perception than we... time existed as past and future... present was merely the veil of this existence being swept across this continuum

MORRIGAN:

that was indeed the point Valkyrie

Azrael:

Yeah Valk, that's kind of what I was saying :)

Sgian Dubh:

That is so true RD

Red Deer:

so, while the only immutable is NOW, it doesn't really even exist

Azrael:

in visions, you wouldn't be seeing something as it is going to be, but just as it was last time, and that's why visions are often wrong, because something already changed them :)

Red Deer:

except as a gate, if you will, between the two

PAniteowl:

hmmmm .... then, at times, I am indeed in the "between" RD?

Sgian Dubh:

And that gate swings both ways

Red Deer:

at times you don't plan, and when you walk between the worlds

agreed Sgian

Azrael:

I was wondering, does anyone know about time in an astral world (or ethereal for that matter)?

Nestor:

on of the basic concepts of both the Roman God Janus and the time period a Samhain

MORRIGAN:

Azrael, I like that train of thought!

Azrael:

I mean, do things in the astral world age, or change?

Red Deer:

all of this may seem a diversion from the TOPIC, but I think conceptualizing time is important to conceptualizing incarnation and re-

Azrael:

Thanks Host :)

Red Deer:

the only constant is change Azrael, even in the Worlds Between

aye Nestor

MORRIGAN:

it's a logical progression from the TOPIC

Nestor:

very good question Azreal --while they seem to change -- is that a function of time or a level?

Azrael:

I didn't think we were getting too far off of topic :)

MORRIGAN:

and since it's now 10:00.... {g}

Sgian Dubh:

Depending which way you pass through the gate, you are incarnated in the past or present or future

FireHeart:

I agree Sgian

ski:

..change belongs to time and to space; there are states where time is not, nor space...

Red Deer:

yes, Sgian... perhaps there are lessons to be learned from reliving THIS life

Nestor:

yes ski --the Circle is one of them

Azrael:

That's what I was wondering, if they aged, or just changed... like you mold clay, changing to another shape doesn't mean you age it, it changes without age...

Nestor:

in a place that is not a place , in a time that is not a time -- one of the basic descriptions of the Circle

Sgian Dubh:

Good point AZ

MORRIGAN:

the circle that we cast ourselves, correct?

ski:

...there may states where time is......different from the time as we know it.. yet what I call the Spiritual realm...time is not...all is now...

LordCearnach:

Therewith, creating the Circle as a means of intermingling the mundane and the astral, we also alter the "realities" on both planes...

Azrael:

I like that concept of a circle Nestor :)

Nestor:

yes as we do so we are both creating a new Universe and separating ourselves from this time/space continuum

Red Deer:

think about it ski - in the physical world as well, all is now - past and present are mental constructs

Azrael:

Speaking of timelessness and the circle, I read somewhere that Merlin was a chronomancer and magician, and within his circle he manipulated time... has anyone given that a thought?.

ViragoWomyn:

MM Raven

ski:

yes, agreed RD..

Red Deer:

oops, I mean past and future

Sgian Dubh:

But in the circle does time stop?

Nestor:

remember the phase "we can in greatness of mind be as the Gods"? this was one of the points --when we create a Circle ( a Universe) are we not assuming the role and ideas of Gods

Red Deer:

Az, we all manipulate time when we cast a circle, or enter a grove

Nestor:

and this we do and must therefore remember our responsibilities to all within that circle

LordCearnach:

The concept of Deity is dually-manifested, according to basic Wiccan philosophy, as it pertains to ritual mechanics, Nestor...we commune with the Gods, but in so doing, *become*

Nestor:

and to all the effect that radiate from the Circle

LordCearnach:

as Gods....realizing the Divine within AND without..

ski:

yes, RD...yet as one is experiencing only the now here on earth,...incredible serenity, naturally is in the experience...not identifies as such...

Nestor:

yes Lord

Azrael:

Yes, you're right Red Deer, I read that Merlin was supposed to have the most control over it, going where he wants in time... or completely stopping it. I believe it was the book "Lords Of Chaos" it wasn't a fiction or non-fiction book... more of a philosophical book :)

ski:

by communing, becoming... hmmmm... it's the without that's tough, LC!!!

LordCearnach:

Actually, it's the self-realization of the both working harmoniously together that is the most difficult of all....Enlightenment from an theosophical perspective...{g}

Nestor:

Az --- in the book does Chaos stand for the Unmanifested or the Unordered --there is quite a difference in concept

ski:

yes... LC...yes.... but a reflection of...

Nestor:

the Unmanifested is like the sculptor that "see" the statue within the block of marble

Azrael:

It was actually about the unordered.

Nestor:

ah thanks

Azrael:

Things had already been done... but it was talking about different historical figures that unraveled, and put into order everything that had already happened.

Nestor:

the un-weaving can we say? or re-weaving??

Red Deer:

Remember, please, that modern Chaos Theory holds that Chaos is NOT unordered... Chaos represents a level or order that is beyond our comprehension

Azrael:

Like the invention of the plane, and the invention of the train... the "lords" had already seen both things exist, they had to put them in the right place.

Nestor:

hmm -very interesting

Azrael:

(the whole book wasn't about the plane and train, that was just an example)

ViragoWomyn:

there is a very fine line between chaos & stagnation, & that fine line is called humanity.

FireHeart:

very interesting

Nestor:

yes RD --and the boundaries of the know approach the levels of the unordered, according to systems theory I believe

LordCearnach:

Metaphysically esoteric metaphors abound....I *like* this!

MORRIGAN:

lol

Nestor:

good point Virago

LordCearnach:

::saying that 3 times fast::

Red Deer:

metaphor is the basis of consciousness

Azrael:

I like that Virago :)

Red Deer:

whoa, Virago... the universe arose from chaos! far from stagnation, in my opinion...

MORRIGAN:

Well folks, it's 12 after and the discussion topic has turned. I'm cutting the log here, but please continue the discussion!

Nestor:

if any of you are familiar with the works of Jaqueta Hawkins ( a fantastic archeologist and writer on ancient Bonze

ski:

explain...metaphor is basis of consciousness, RD... if you may please..

ViragoWomyn:

I was reading an article about this last year, for one of my philosophy classes...

Nestor:

Age civilizations)

Red Deer:

everything we think is a metaphor for something real...

ViragoWomyn:

..and if you think about it, it's true. if things are too chaotic, life cannot exist. likewise with stagnation

Nestor:

she posed that the mixing of the Minoan and Mycenaean civilization lead to a flowering of the arts

ViragoWomyn:

and it's 10:15 est. party time!!! {g}

Red Deer:

language is the culmination of the ability to communicate these metaphors to others

FireHeart:

good point, Red

Red Deer:

{--- views stagnation more as entropic - perfect homogeneity, not chaos

MORRIGAN:

May I just interject here that this was an excellent discussion! thank you all so much for coming and participating!

Nestor:

Chat Host and Pa and RD and all you other great people --THANK YOU for you wonderful input --I know that I have gotten a lot of new ideas from this class and must think about them some more!!!

ski:

..yet, RD...one can have consciousness without metaphors...eh?

LordCearnach:

One of the more thought-provoking classes in recent memory..{s}

ski:

..ie Existence ...period..

MORRIGAN:

{g} me too Nestor! I'll be brain buzzing all night now!

LordCearnach:

Linear memory, that is...

ViragoWomyn:

LOL. me too

PAniteowl:

Thanks to all for the great time tonight {G} ... I missed you guys!!

MORRIGAN:

It was great to see you again PA. You are missed.

Nestor:

yes PA we need you here more often

Red Deer:

Well, according to psychological definition, simple existence is not consciousness

ski:

oh. OK.

Red Deer:

consciousness requires the ability reflect and to communicate

FireHeart:

Once again, my knowledge has been expanded and my brain is also just a buzz with new ideas

MORRIGAN:

agreed, otherwise the "braindead" person being kept alive by machines would classify as conscious

Isis Hathor:

A great many good points... I saved this to disk...

Nestor:

but at what level of life form does consciousness begin in your opinion RD?

ski:

..yet the experience of "I am I exist" ...certainly has awareness in its most clear state...

Red Deer:

ah, your question is a two edged sword, Nestor...

Nestor:

sorry RD --

ski:

..maybe getting messed up with words here..

Nestor:

but it bears some thought on all our parts

FireHeart:

I believe that all life form has some level of consciousness. Perhaps not on the same level as humans or even on a level that we can understand and/or relate to

ski:

maybe I am getting messed up, that is....

Red Deer:

as a universal animist, I do not believe that consciousness requires "life" as we recognize it - rocks are sentient = conscious but, that would not sit well with most psychologists

FireHeart:

exactly Red Deer

Red Deer:

therefore, to directly answer Nestor

ski:

ahhhh... yes!! RD... OK... and yes!! the rock has consciousness... and the worm...

Nestor:

indeed --but perhaps although they cannot measure it --or refuse to see the measurement as indicative of "life" --we can say that the Earth Our Mother -Gaia is ALIVE

ski:

tc

Red Deer:

I don't believe there is a point when consciousness develops - only a point at which it is perceivable to others and that perception is dependent upon the others' ability to perceive

Nestor:

good point RD -- a question of the subject and the observer in reality

ski:

boy!!! far out...

FireHeart:

well said, Red Deer

Red Deer:

again, it's all relative!

ski:

yes...relative...

Red Deer:

Are folks here aware of Einstein's NONscientific description of relativity?

ski:

divinely so...

please say, RD..

Red Deer:

"When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it seems like two hours..."

MORRIGAN:

LOL and perception IS reality

Red Deer:

"When you sit beside a pretty woman for two hours, it seems like two minutes"

ski:

lol

Red Deer:

"THAT'S RELATIVITY"

Nestor:

LOL Indeed RD

FireHeart:

LOL Red

ViragoWomyn:

OK, what if you were sitting on a hot stove, next to a pretty woman?

Red Deer:

everything is conditioned by the state of the observer

Reality:

double OUCH

Red Deer:

I guess it would depend upon which is most central to your perception, VW

FireHeart:

then 2 minutes would be 2 minutes too long and 2 minutes too short (G)

MORRIGAN:

lol FH!

Nestor:

and in the words of that philosophical county/western song "They all get prettier come closing time"

Red Deer:

most would probably be more aware of the heat... and most would expect me to be more aware of the woman {g}

ViragoWomyn:

LOL

Red Deer:

yes FireHeart

Autumn:

LOL

PAniteowl:

heheheh ... aye, RD!!!

Autumn:

Other than heat, what are talking about tonight?

ViragoWomyn:

pretty women... {g}

PAniteowl:

but someone would SPAM you back to reality RD {G}

MORRIGAN:

we were discussing reincarnation which lead to a discussion of linear time and now... relativity uh oh... {s spam}

RedStar:

Red Deer: