MORRIGAN:

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA101! Tonight we are having an open discussion on different divination methods and techniques.

I will be warding the door, so you kids are on your own for the most part

ViragoWitch:

OK... divination...

algiz:

how divine

MORRIGAN:

OK, how many of you actually use a form of divination?

Windaly:

I do

PaganRev:

I

IrishWitch:

{--

erg mad:

I

ViragoWitch:

I do... tarot and runes... and astrology charts

algiz:

I

Ravynn:

I do

melilot:

{------nope

Greyed Wolf:

Runes

SylverHare:

yeppers

Windaly:

Tarot

MORRIGAN:

and what do you use it for?

Ravynn:

{ --uses Tarot and runes

ViragoWitch:

ummm, for divination? {G}

IrishWitch:

To guide me

PaganRev:

Current and future influences mostly

Ravynn:

to give me something to focus on that day

ViragoWitch:

I use it primarily to help me make decisions...

Windaly:

I used my tarot for advice and guidance to get me through a difficult time I am going through now... It has proved very helpful

Greyed Wolf:

Personnel direction if a problem arises that needs more then one answer.

algiz:

focus , and decisions

Sword Maiden:

{-- uses runes, tarot, and Celtic tree oracle cards

ViragoWitch:

Can we take a quick tarot-poll? For those who use tarot, which deck?

SlvrWolf:

uses flame divination to lead me in my search for knowledge

Windaly:

Celtic tarot

Red Deer:

Rider-Waite

IrishWitch:

Celtic?

Ravynn:

Aquarian

PaganRev:

Rider-Waite and Robin Wood

Sword Maiden:

Arthurian tarot

algiz:

Celtic

Trollfrog:

Moon Garden

ViragoWitch:

{-- mostly Ryder-Waite. have used Celtic and Golden Dawn

IrishWitch:

has not found that but for a spread

Trollfrog:

[not used too often]

Sword Maiden:

and BOTA Tarot

Windaly:

Helena Patterson

SylverHare:

Wood, Rider, and I just was given an antique French deck to play with{G}

ViragoWitch:

Neat, Sylver. Have you used it yet?

SylverHare:

Not yet VW, still getting acquainted with it

Windaly:

I'm studying the golden Dawn now... boy is it fascinating and confusing

ViragoWitch:

I agree, Windaly. I have some problems with it! So I mostly stick to Ryder-W. Which I learned on.

Ravynn:

Just got Tarot of the Old Path... to feminine for me

algiz:

take your time, be patient

Windaly:

Nods... I'm still learning... but my cards are so helpful...

ViragoWitch:

And a quick rune poll- who uses runes? Which ones?

MORRIGAN:

I do

Sword Maiden:

I do

MORRIGAN:

elder futhark

melilot:

{--nope

algiz:

I love runes, find them very enlightening

ViragoWitch:

Has anyone tried one of the computer tarot programs?

MORRIGAN:

no

erg mad:

don't believe in em

IrishWitch:

{-----

PaganRev:

I have... I've got a shareware version and "Cyber Tarot"

ViragoWitch:

I tried one and to be honest... thought it was really stupid.

algiz:

when I was in great need of support and direction, the runes helped guide me

Windaly:

My Tarot cards chose me in a way... I bought them because while looking for the right deck... this particular deck seemed to tingle in my hands

Ravynn:

I have... it was very disappointing

Trollfrog:

sigils... seals... and other "odd" carvings...

algiz:

so important, to feel something

ViragoWitch:

Cool, Windaly. I also have a gorgeous Russian tarot deck, but I'm still trying to learn it. {g}

Windaly:

{g}

ViragoWitch:

Neat, Troll... You get good results with them?

Trollfrog:

yep. ask Sylver. he he

ViragoWitch:

OK... I will, sometime.

Ravynn:

I want to see those runes, troll

ViragoWitch:

OK... why do you use divination? What are it's limits?

Trollfrog:

or meli

ViragoWitch:

Thoughts, anyone?

Windaly:

It seems I am always learning something... I read one book and another leaps out at me

algiz:

there is never an end to learning

IrishWitch:

Lucky you

MORRIGAN:

I only really use it when something tough is going on in my life that I need guidance on

erg mad:

to help calm my unstable mind

Ravynn:

the key thing for me regarding divination is to focus on a particular question

Windaly:

Yes ERG and for advice

MORRIGAN:

or spell work

Trollfrog:

"aural" reads work better for troll though...

Windaly:

advice

ViragoWitch:

I usually turn to the cards or the stars, etc, when I've got a difficult decision to make.

PaganRev:

Sometimes I use it for guidance, for the wisdom that otherwise I might be too impatient to wait for.

Greyed Wolf:

When the choices are not clearly seen or ether choice is good.

Windaly:

But I have also learned not to read the cards when I am overly distraught

algiz:

yes

ViragoWitch:

Troll- want to take about aural, for a minute?

algiz:

very true

Trollfrog:

hands ... palm to palm... not quite touching...

PaganRev:

I don't usually read for myself... unless I use the runes or I Ching

ViragoWitch:

Troll? You said aural reading works better for you? How so?

algiz:

I Ching is cool

Windaly:

what is an aural reading... {always learning}

MORRIGAN:

I don't know about that either Windaly

Trollfrog:

feel chi flow from body to body through palms

ViragoWitch:

How about if we discuss aural readings and then I Ching?

algiz:

kay

ViragoWitch:

Troll- sounds neat- is it difficult to learn?

Windaly:

I don't know I Ching either...

Trollfrog:

is easy... and direct

algiz:

like the direct

ViragoWitch:

easy and direct always works... {g}

Windaly:

How do you do an Aural reading then... what is it

melilot:

explain aural reading to me please

ViragoWitch:

Troll- so an aural reading involves 2 people? Or am I not understanding?

Trollfrog:

[troll is giving directions... started already... scroll up] yep 2 people required

ViragoWitch:

OK... so far, it makes sense.

Wicca101:

Aura readings??? I only see a type a light no color... {pout}

Trollfrog:

once the "circuit" has been established [feel the flows] then "relax"... and sync breath

ViragoWitch:

OK... still makes sense...

Trollfrog:

now look "around"... rather than at... your partner

Azrael:

it works really well if you unfocus your eyes too

algiz:

that is a great way to describe

Trollfrog:

the flows flare with questions

MORRIGAN:

yes Az!

ViragoWitch:

OK... got a question- is your partner dynamic or static? are they trying to help establish a circuit, or just standing there?

Trollfrog:

works both ways

algiz:

been unfocussing the eyes since childhood helps you "see" better

Trollfrog:

the circuit/flow is dynamic

ViragoWitch:

OK... got it.

Trollfrog:

read works in both directions... no shields

ViragoWitch:

And how does doing an aural reading help? For what purpose?

Trollfrog:

gives answers to questions rather not asked

Windaly:

I'm lost

melilot:

could aural readings be used to help with healings?

Trollfrog:

hidden

ViragoWitch:

Ahhhhhhh.

Trollfrog:

yes

ViragoWitch:

Good question, Meli. I was wondering also.

Trollfrog:

meli... same flows... just directed differently

MORRIGAN:

so don't use it unless you're prepared to hear something you may not want to hear? {g}

Azrael:

aural readings can be used to see what's wrong

ViragoWitch:

LOL- good way of phrasing it, Chatty

algiz:

perhaps

Trollfrog:

you betcha

ViragoWitch:

Troll- this is similar to a technique I've been learning for healing.

melilot:

how does one learn to this type of reading?

ViragoWitch:

I think I'll have to try this sometime, though.

Windaly:

ahhhhh... so you see colors and they represent something each color... am I on the right path here

MORRIGAN:

like a diagnosis then Azrael?

Trollfrog:

some work with colors... others with the "texture" of the flows

algiz:

ever read Insomnia?

Azrael:

Yep, and you can apply your energy to the parts of an aura that need healing...

Windaly:

Now I understand... ,s}

Trollfrog:

all "see" differently

breezerider:

Troll, are you looking for dark spots and energy leaks

MORRIGAN:

interesting. I'm just getting to where I can see auras. but I don't always see color

Trollfrog:

color is not always helpful... can hide things

ViragoWitch:

Chatty- it's hard to learn to see color. Keep working on it!

algiz:

I have heard that only children can see vibrant color

MORRIGAN:

what do you mean Troll?

ViragoWitch:

I tend to work more with texture/temperature, actually.

algiz:

they are so innocent, we are not

Trollfrog:

the flows tell more by their ebb

MORRIGAN:

texture and temperature. hmmmm I'll have to pay closer attention.

SylverHare:

That ability to "unfocus" as Az called it, seems to be common to all the divination forms, Scrying certainly, but I also seem to do it while using the Tarot. That raises some intriguing things in my mind

ViragoWitch:

Want to expand on that, Sylver?

MORRIGAN:

please Hare

ViragoWitch:

One note on "unfocusing" though... Can cause a nasty headache if you practice it too much!

Windaly:

Yes ... here too Sylver... If I'm interrupted while reading the read is gone

melilot:

OK I was at a psychic fair yesterday they were offering to take a picture of your aura is this possible

algiz:

yes, been there, done it

ViragoWitch:

Meli- I've had that done.

SylverHare:

well, perhaps the unfocus is what most Witches use as the true method, the outward form doesn't really matter???

Azrael:

pictures of auras are possible =)

Moon'sLight:

oh, I got a picture of my aura taken... it was total BS

melilot:

but doesn't your aura change all the time?

ViragoWitch:

Actually, did it a couple of times, and each time, prior to it, I did a little experiments, to disrupt my aura.

ViragoWitch:

Which was not reflected in the picture. I have to agree with Moon's Light.

Trollfrog:

basic flows change very gradually

Moon'sLight:

it was a Polaroid of me with a big red blob over my head, and it cost $10

algiz:

lol

MORRIGAN:

lol

algiz:

sucker

Azrael:

the aura close to your body stays the same, but the outer flow changes.

Moon'sLight:

I was ripped off

Trollfrog:

small areas can change quickly though

Windaly:

there are charlatans every where

SylverHare:

charlatans even

Windaly:

oops hehe

SylverHare:

{G}

MORRIGAN:

outer is more emotional isn't it Azrael?

Azrael:

Yeah =)

MORRIGAN:

thought so

ViragoWitch:

What about the I Ching? Anyone have experience there?

Azrael:

The closer to your body, the more it defines the overall person so it changes over very long periods of time.

MORRIGAN:

got it.

Windaly:

What is I Ching

MORRIGAN:

I've never used I Ching

ViragoWitch:

thanks for the clarification, Az

SylverHare:

{-----------limited, Taoism way too oriental for me to understand

MORRIGAN:

had someone try to explain it to me once and I got lost

ViragoWitch:

I've never used I Ching either- but someone was mentioning it earlier. I don't understand it, either!

MORRIGAN:

it gets really deep Hare

Trollfrog:

it's really simple hare

MORRIGAN:

now isn't Scrying considered divination?

Trollfrog:

is pattern based

Nestor:

actually I Ching is very binary

ViragoWitch:

Nestor/Troll- want to clue the rest of us in about I Ching?

SylverHare:

The reading I've done indicates to use it properly you really need to know the background legend for each hexagram, or else its just like the horoscope in the newspaper

algiz:

used it a little, don't know much about it though

ViragoWitch:

and chatty- most people consider Scrying to be divination.

Nestor:

well it is base on a series of 64 hexagram

Trollfrog:

bah!

MORRIGAN:

thanks thought so

Trollfrog:

all you need are a couple of coins

algiz:

pennies?

Nestor:

in which the line are either seen as stable or changing

ViragoWitch:

coins, Troll?

Trollfrog:

a pencil and paper

ViragoWitch:

so far, Nestor, I follow you.

algiz:

I thought pennies for some reason

Nestor:

you can use either coins or yarrow sticks to do the creation of the hexagrams

Trollfrog:

any coins will do

ViragoWitch:

OK- how many coins, then?

Trollfrog:

you toss em in pairs... write down heads vs tails

Nestor:

the best translation is I believe the Wilhem-Baynes version done for Princeton Bolenginer series

Trollfrog:

then look up the pattern in the book

ViragoWitch:

OK- then the book "explains" it?

Trollfrog:

[the sticks are a GIANT pain to use]

MORRIGAN:

every pattern is in the book?

Trollfrog:

yep

ViragoWitch:

Troll- how many pairs of coins?

algiz:

from my experience it is very accurate

Trollfrog:

it's a thick book

2 coins... tossed 4 times

Nestor:

yes the book explains the basics and then you have to look at the changing or "young" lines and go to the resulting hexagram too

ViragoWitch:

OK... got it!

Trollfrog:

yep nest... is lots easier than tarot

ViragoWitch:

Sounds like it gets kind of complex there, Nestor.

algiz:

I am going to buy it tomorrow, someone borrowed mine and did not return it

Nestor:

then you must interpret the meaning form the text

Nestor:

from the text

ViragoWitch:

Troll- I guess it depends on which you're used to... Nestor- and you've had a good success rate with I Ching, then?

Nestor:

there is also another translation by Blofield which is also good

yes --in fact a group of us used it in grad school to help get ideas to pass some of the take home tests we had in political economic development

ViragoWitch:

And it worked, Nestor? I'll have to try that on one of my take home exams!

Red Deer:

neat idea, Nestor

ViragoWitch:

and what about reading the stars? anyone?

Nestor:

well our group was the only one that pull straight "A" s during the entire course --so yes it worked --and it made me very interested in how all this stuff works

Red Deer:

isn't that like Astrology, VW? {vbeg}

ViragoWitch:

Wonderful, Nestor! I'll let you know if it works for us

LOL Red Deer. yup.

DarkDreamer:

wonderful simply wonderful

ViragoWitch:

OK... astrology? any takers? any thoughts?

Nestor:

Astrology is very useful especially n helping with the timing of higher probabilities of events occurring and also for seeing psychological insights in people character

ViragoWitch:

Most of my friends have roped me into doing their charts, at one time or another... Maybe I ought to start charging? {g}

Red Deer:

I've always wondered why we do natal charts from the time of birth, rather than the time of conception... other than the obvious answer of which is more obvious

Nestor:

it does not tell you something is going to happen --what it does do is point out when certain types of events have a higher probability of occurring

melilot:

heheheh vw could ya do a chart for me {eg}

ViragoWitch:

Red Deer- probably, because it's much harder to figure out exact times of conception

Meli- sure- these days, the price is a batch of brownies or cookies and a back rub!

Nestor:

yes Virago that is quite true

Red Deer:

guys, look up!

melilot:

could it not be because the time of birth is when the child becomes one instead of a part of the mother? fair trade vw {G}

Nestor:

by the way there are at least 2 standard astrology text book which have survived from Classical times

ViragoWitch:

Good point, Meli

MORRIGAN:

that makes sense to me Meli

Nestor:

and have not had Christianizing influences added

IrishWitch:

which ones Nestor

ViragoWitch:

which books, Nestor?

MORRIGAN:

how difficult is it to learn this?

Nestor:

one is by Ptolemy

ViragoWitch:

I've got that one... OK.

Nestor:

and the other is Maricus which was the last of the Roman astrologers

ViragoWitch:

There's also some computer programs that will do the math for you- saves much time!

Nestor:

I will try and get the bibliographic data for you this week if you are interested

ViragoWitch:

Some of the programs will do the actual charting for you- but I prefer to draw my own charts.

thanks, Nestor-

MORRIGAN:

math? ugh! {g}

ViragoWitch:

LOL Chatty. not complex math- Just time consuming.

MORRIGAN:

well that's good to hear.

does anyone have any specific questions about their method of divination that someone here might be able to help them with?

ViragoWitch:

hmm, let me think...

melilot:

what is the best way to start learning the tarot? and what is the best deck for a beginner?

MORRIGAN:

good question Meli... I was going to ask that!

ViragoWitch:

Meli- I learned on Ryder-Waite... and it's the one I feel most comfortable with. And my aunt taught me...

Windaly:

Mine found me... and I just started using them... read the books that come with the deck... let your self be guided by your feelings

hugmeister:

The best deck to learn off of is the one that finds you. You will be drawn to your deck

MORRIGAN:

that makes sense

ViragoWitch:

oh, speaking of Tarot- the 1997 Llewellin's Witches Almanac has an article about learning the tarot and how to "learn" the cards.

Windaly:

I just read any thing and everything... and if it works for me ... I use it...

Red Deer:

Personal opinion is Rider-Waite, but Huggy is right...

Cloudburst:

Meli, I learned on Rider Waite too, but have since switched, mainly because another deck *found* me{G}.

Red Deer:

best way to learn is to read, study and meditate on one card at a time for at LEAST 24 hours

ViragoWitch:

And one of these days, I'm going to learn this pretty Russian deck that I've got...

melilot:

I really don't feel a deck will "find" me till I have some feeling for tarot

Red Deer:

sleep on the card - literally

ViragoWitch:

That works, too, Red Deer. that's what my aunt made me do.

Nestor:

ah the books are Ptolemy "Tetrabiblos" ((Harvard U. Pres, Loeb Library Series #435, ISBN 0-674-99479-5, about $18) and "Ancient Astrology Theory and Practice: The Mathesis of Firmicus Maternus"

ViragoWitch:

Thanks, Nestor!

IrishWitch:

So they say, put the deck under ye pillow

hugmeister:

Sleep with the deck under your pillow for 2 weeks before using it

Red Deer:

then, when you feel you know your deck, start learning the lay outs... again, one will identify itself to you

hugmeister:

To attune it to you

Windaly:

sleep on it... I never thought of that... {g} thanks

ViragoWitch:

can we please not shout? thanks-

Red Deer:

I agree with that AFTER you've done it one card at a time Huggy

Nestor:

trans Jean Rhys Bram (Noyes Classical Studies, 1975, isbn0-8155-5037-5)

melilot:

OK so I take one card a day, study it, sleep with it, till I've done the whole deck, then start practicing layouts

Red Deer:

some find it overwhelming - or simply miss a lot of connections - when they start out BANG with the whole deck

Azrael:

Numerology is a nice form of divination, and Llewellyn has a great book out on it.

Windaly:

The person using them... and the guides that work with them... I think

Nestor:

vinf --it think there is both a subconscious psychokinetic ordering of the cards plus a telepathic linkage between reader and querant

Red Deer:

yup meli... I'd also suggest picking your time of the moon to start - with the first card and again with the layouts...

ViragoWitch:

Az- have you experience w/ numerology?

Cloudburst:

vinf, I think they work with our own knowledge - like, some part of you knows the answer but hasn't let the rest of you know yet...

Azrael:

A little

MORRIGAN:

I agree with that cloud

Windaly:

yea cloud

Red Deer:

and, start with the MINOR ARCANA - after you have connected with each card & each suit, then move on to the major

aye, cloud

hugmeister:

One deck I'd avoid is the Tarot of the Cat People

Nestor:

since the designs on the faces of the cards then to be archetypal in nature the sub-conscious deals with the symbolism

Cloudburst:

... and when you see the picture it makes the info available to the rest of you{G}

hugmeister:

It's an evil deck

[editor's note: believing that objects are not inherently good or evil, but that these qualities lie in our use of objects - be they tarot decks, guns or drugs - I must disagree with Huggies' statement about the Cat People Tarot.]

ViragoWitch:

excellent advice, Red Deer

ViragoWitch:

I've heard of that one, Hug.

hugmeister:

It's brought misery to everyone I know who has owned it

melilot:

thanks red sounds like a plan {g} I'll start next moon cycle

vinf:

nestor-11 reddeer thank you you are both in my prayers: blessed be!!!!!!

ViragoWitch:

Best of luck with that, Meli.

Cloudburst:

Good luck, Meli

melilot:

thanks gang {G}

ViragoWitch:

Let us know how it goes, OK, Meli?

Red Deer:

then, initially (at LEAST) you should only read for others...

melilot:

will keep you all updated as soon as I start

MORRIGAN:

I've heard that too Red. why is that?

Red Deer:

I personally advise against reading for yourself until you are REALLY comfortable with it

ViragoWitch:

I'd have to agree, Red.

MORRIGAN:

why??

Nestor:

another useful technique in understanding internal order of the tarot is to lay the deck out on the floor with the small cards (1 -10) as the sephria on the tree of life and the Trumps as the paths --then walk

melilot:

now when I start learning the layouts I don't ask any questions or expect it to be a reading of me is that correct?

Cloudburst:

hard to read on your own questions-too close, too important, too much chance of misinterpretation

Red Deer:

you're too subjectively mired up in your own life to open fully to the connections within a reading until you are well practiced...

Windaly:

I've always read for myself... but under guidance... I guess I was lucky... I felt comfortable with my cards from day one...

Nestor:

each path and look around you and see the relationships

Red Deer:

I was taught NEVER to read for myself (and don't), but know many folk who do

Nestor:

relationships

melilot:

could that be because we tend to see what we "expect" to see in our subconscious red?

Nestor:

RD --you can read for yourself but you must be brutally honest with yourself or you will drift into a land of total fantasy

ViragoWitch:

Red Deer- do you think people who read for themselves are making a mistake? Or not getting a true reading?

hugmeister:

It's because we won't see what's really there

MORRIGAN:

well, is this only for tarot, or all methods of divination?

Red Deer:

I feel it is a mistake for ME to read for MYSELF - will not judge for others... but, it does require extra caution to assure that you're not seeing what you want to see...

PaleHawk:

I say for All, Chattie... reading for self sometimes is influenced by our own desires

Red Deer:

denial is a strong defense... even in divination

Windaly:

Now I have found my readings to be right on the track... and brutally honest

Nestor:

I can understand your feelings RD and it is good if you have someone competent to read for you

Cloudburst:

I now get good readings for myself. It's been 20-something years, only true for the last few. I think it's HARD and if you can get somebody else to read for you, do it{G}

MORRIGAN:

hmmmm

ViragoWitch:

I've found that I do have the ability to be brutally honest with myself, and do read for myself... However, there are times when I wish I wasn't so brutally honest.

Windaly:

I agree VW... same here

Cloudburst:

You got it, VW{G}

Windaly:

way to brutal... but helpful in my current crisis

ViragoWitch:

Of course... I also tend to be brutally honest with others, if I am doing a reading for them. I do, however, always warn them before hand that I am brutal.

Nestor:

LOL --yes Virago but note that is probably when you do make the most important insights and greatest advancement is when you are being that tough on yourself

MORRIGAN:

agreed Nestor

ViragoWitch:

Well... I'm always too tough on myself {g}. Ask anyone who knows me!

Nestor:

and that is part of your success Virago

Red Deer:

excellent policy and practice, VW - we gain nothing by withholding the truth - especially, IMO, when the act of agreeing to do a reading SAYS will give the truth

Cloudburst:

Actually, some of the times I got bad reads for myself it was because I was being tougher than the cards were - opposite of wishful thinking, perhaps{G}

ViragoWitch:

Well- sometimes I make type-A personalities look laid back! LOL

MORRIGAN:

well folks... it's nearing 10 now... unless there are more questions... I'll stop the logs now

ViragoWitch:

No further Q's from me, Chatty. Thanks, as always!

MORRIGAN:

Well then, I want to thank you all for coming and participating in this weeks class!

Red Deer:

Excellent discussion topic, Chatty... keep up the good work {VBBS}

MORRIGAN:

Thanks Red Deer!

ViragoWitch:

hey- I do have a question. what's class on next week?

MORRIGAN:

I learned a few things tonight

I've no idea yet VW, you have a suggestion?

Nestor: