MORRIGAN:

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA 101! Tonight our discussion is on Yule.

During class, please keep all greetings, farewells and side conversations in Instant Message.

Disrupters will be warned once by the Chat Host. If disruptive behavior persists their exclusion will be called for. When an exclusion is called, all are asked to do so WITHOUT comment either to or about the excludee.

In case of disaster {g} could one or two of you who plan on attending the entire class please log as back up?

ok YULE...what is YULE?

anybody... just jump on in here

milt32:

Yule is the shortest day of the year?

MORRIGAN:

yes

the Yule season lasts from Dec 20th to Dec 31st and that's where the 12 days of Christmas originated from

PAniteowl:

Winter solstice ... actual beginning of the Greenman rejuvenating

MORRIGAN:

can you go into that for us PA?

PAniteowl:

It is the balance of the year the focal point, so to speak when the gestation begins the God and Goddess actually are reuniting

MORRIGAN:

OK this is where I get a bit confused. The gestation of the young God begins here?

PAniteowl:

yes, Chatty

MORRIGAN:

and continues on until ....

ViragoWitch:

until birth {g}

MORRIGAN:

duh! lol

PAniteowl:

the darkness is at it's peak, and from here on out, the sun becomes stronger {G}

Nestor11:

The birthday of Mithra -- God of Light --aka the Unconquerable Sun - is also seen as the winter solstice. It was in response to this religion that Christianity moed their celebration to Dec. as the birth of the "Son"

Nestor11:

moved their celebration

PAniteowl:

the days lengthen, and soon the earth will warm to the greening

MORRIGAN:

OK so this is the celebration of the return of the sun... its strengthening..and so a fire festival

PAniteowl:

it is the time for the Sun to start its ascendancy...yes

MORRIGAN:

and not the other way around

PAniteowl:

not in this hemisphere Chatty {G}

ViragoWitch:

picky, picky {g}

PAniteowl:

{g}

MORRIGAN:

good point though

PAniteowl:

can you tell I've been hanging around with the Aussies on IRC?? {G}

MORRIGAN:

yep!

MORRIGAN:

now the Holly King is the old Lord right?

MORRIGAN:

and this is the time when he passes the proverbial torch to the young Lord the Oak King?

Nestor11:

yes --and also the Roman's and the Empire were celebrating Saturnalia -- a feast with great license and

reverie -- so the Church needed some other way of diverting the feasting -- remember that in some histories, yes

MORRIGAN:

so do I have my mythologies mixed up here?

Nestor11:

until the Victorian era that Christmas was really a wild celebration and not a family holiday --in fact the Puritans try to outlaw any public displays

PAniteowl:

the Holly, with its evergreen, fruit bearing properties, shows that the God at rest is not really "dead". The Oak is a tree which needs the coolness, and the acorn must rest a year before it can germinate ... so the Holly to Oak is very symbolic

Sword Maiden:

why Nestor??

Nestor11:

it was Dickens &: CO, that helped change that into a family occasion and tried to hide the pagan heritage of the day..the Puritan did not like the reveals and public celebration it often had sexual over tones to it

Sword Maiden:

ah hah - I see

Nestor11:

and were consider "immodest"

MORRIGAN:

got it PA, thanks!

PAniteowl:

k {G}

MORRIGAN:

everything the Romans did had sexual overtones to it {g}

Nestor11:

now the merchants class in England love the heavy buying of gifts and the decorations of the large manor house

Sword Maiden:

{G}

ViragoWitch:

LOL.. guess that explains Nestor's fascination with the Romans {g}

Nestor11:

just about with the Romans of the later Empire

MORRIGAN:

LOL

PAniteowl:

Chatty ... Yule was pre Roman influence

Sword Maiden:

VW!! LOL

Nestor11:

the early Republican Romans were quite different

ViragoWitch:

The early Republic Romans were no fun.

Nestor11:

yes PA the Yule celebrations were also very important in the Teutonic areas as well

PAniteowl:

The Yule of the US is a compilation of many traditions from all over the world. We Americans are great at "assimilating" {G}

Sword Maiden:

YES!!

MORRIGAN:

who started it then?

MORRIGAN:

well, there are so many from so many different backgrounds here, it is to be expected really

Nestor11:

it was a general function of most nature based religions and therefore not culture specific

PAniteowl:

The celebrations of the shortest day, or the equinox, were observed long before the religions had names. They were tribal, agricultural practices

PAniteowl:

heheheh ... gee, Nes &: I just said the same thing...didn't we?? {G}

MORRIGAN:

of course, I knew that

ViragoWitch:

LOL.. GMTA, I guess....

Azael:

Well, now we know where it originated, who changed it, where the 12 days of Christmas came from what it used to mean. How about, What does it mean now? How is it now celebrated?

MORRIGAN:

so how do you celebrate Yule then PA?

MORRIGAN:

good questions Azael

PAniteowl:

Each Trad has their own particular methodology {G}

MORRIGAN:

well, as a Tradless solitary I guess I'm searching for some meaning and understanding here

Azael:

beautiful answer.

PAniteowl:

Since the Yule is on the 21st, and the FMR is on the 24th . there will be larger FMR this time {G}

MORRIGAN:

what does Yule mean for you Azael?

Sword Maiden:

FMR Pa??

MORRIGAN:

Full Moon Ritual

Sword Maiden:

oh

Xori:

I agree with Chatty, as a solitary, I would be interested to hear how others celebrate Yule

PAniteowl:

The "cakes and Ale" part of the ritual will be larger than usual {G} and of course there will be COOKIES!!!

ViragoWitch:

LOL!

Azael:

My personal opinion isn't very important.

MORRIGAN:

yes it is Az... that's why I asked you.

Azael:

It doesn't represent the mass of the pagan/wiccan community. It's just my opinion.

PAniteowl:

The Circle will be cast acknowledging the importance of the equinox, and calling the God &: Goddess of the Pantheon to join together

Nestor11:

what is interesting that in German --the noun for the Sun is feminine "Die Sonne" and the Moon is masculine "der Mond" -- I don't know enough about the Teutonic faiths and ritual to talk about its implications but

Xori:

This is year 2 for me in integrating Yule into the seasonal holiday, and I'm very interested in how PA

Nestor11:

wonder how that effects the celebrations and folk traditions

PAniteowl:

Many trads observe the "Great Rite" at this time...and how they perceive that is individual to the covens trad practice

Sword Maiden:

me too Xori

MORRIGAN:

at the moment for me, it's more of a carry over from Christmas with pagan overtones

PAniteowl:

Chatty...maybe this suggestion would help all those who are new to the craft?

PAniteowl:

shall I?

MORRIGAN:

yes please

PAniteowl:

Most of the Christmas traditions were developed from the old ways and Nestor celebrate with their families - what kinds of rituals are incorporated etc

MORRIGAN:

and Az... if I didn't want your opinion I wouldn't have asked for it.

PAniteowl:

Xmas trees, lighted trees, and decorations...etc, etc...

ViragoWitch:

LOL Chatty...

Sword Maiden:

hehe

MORRIGAN:

yes PA continue

PAniteowl:

You don't have to throw away your old ornaments {G}...just know them for what they were originally!!

Nestor11:

well we have a "Yule" tree and a "Yule log" --and the traditional roast goose or pork with apples

Sword Maiden:

so where did the idea of giving gifts come from anyway??

PAniteowl:

Yes, Nestor...and round balls...like the sun...stars, and crescents to honor the moon

ViragoWitch:

LOL... we have Yule tofu and beans/legumes {g}

Azael:

What importance or significance Yule has to the pagan community, isn't reflected in my opinion even if you'd want it.

Sword Maiden:

LOL

MORRIGAN:

ok Az

PAniteowl:

Sword Maiden ... think of what you do when you have a baby shower...do you bring gifts?

Sword Maiden:

yes

PAniteowl:

when you celebrate new life, and renewal ... do you bring a gift?

Sword Maiden:

yes

Nestor11:

Sword that was not a major function of the holiday until the Victorian era, there as always some gift or exchange of blessed items but only later did it become the focal point that it is today

PAniteowl:

This is the renewal of the life of the earth..so giving and exchanging wishes or gifts, was always a

tradition with many tribes

ViragoWitch:

and.. thanks to Hallmark, Toys R Us, and similar corporations, the emphasis often is on the gifts.

Nestor11:

and many cultures would have exchanges of baked good between families -- token of the bounty and blessing of the Earth

Sword Maiden:

oh, makes sense Pa, Nestor

PAniteowl:

sure...now it is the commerciality...but think about what it was like in the ancient past

Nestor11:

I know that the Germans had a stollen ( baked loaf of cake like bread with fruits in it)

Sword Maiden:

personaly, i like the idea of homemade gifts

Xori:

also it may be that since the winter was a time where there was not much to do but craftwork, it may have been something to keep people occupied and in anticipation of the solstice

ViragoWitch:

so do I, Sword.

MORRIGAN:

wouldn't it have been more of a community thing, with everyone bringing something to the celebration?

Nestor11:

yes that was part of it --large community celebrations--public feasting and wild parties

Sword Maiden:

i do not believe it is the amount or price of the gift, but the sentiment, and meaning behind it that is important

ViragoWitch:

Sword- please help me explain that to my little sister!

Nestor11:

it was a feature of Yule in England for centuries --not at all the staid religious holiday that is pictured

MORRIGAN:

of course Sword

Sword Maiden:

VW i wish i could explain that to my niece

MORRIGAN:

or Mattel

Nestor11:

some of the songs like "The Holy and the Ivy" have a definite pagan aspect to their lyrics -- listen to it some time

PAniteowl:

MMA all {G}

MORRIGAN:

and Deck the Halls

MORRIGAN:

I wondered where you went PA

ViragoWitch:

MMA Owl. bumped, huh?

PAniteowl:

got bounced off {G}

Nestor11:

it includes the "running of the deer" -- please remember who the Stag God was

MORRIGAN:

the Holly and the Ivy does Nestor?

Xori:

yes Nestor - there are lots of songs out there that are quite pagan in the lyrics - I've found this since my daughter's school completely banned them doing anything religious musically

Nestor11:

yes listen to it --it is often on many Christmas CD

MORRIGAN:

will do Nestor. I find myself getting frustrated that all the songs I know reflect the Christian beliefs rather than my own

PAniteowl:

oh, and remember the sleigh is also the Chariot, carrying the sun across the sky {G}

Xori:

Dec the halls for instance

Azael:

Does everyone believes gifts should be physical? Or do you think that magical and spiritual gifts are a commendable gift for a holy day?

ViragoWitch:

not to mention.. reindeer/

PAniteowl:

{G}

MORRIGAN:

I hadn't thought of that Azael

MORRIGAN:

like charms and amulets, or ...?

Nestor11:

well just pour yourself some mead from the Wassail bowl and enjoy the joke Chattie --we know what they are singing about -

Sword Maiden:

me too chatty, but i found a whole "set" of alternate pagan lyrics to the original xtian ones

PAniteowl:

I like physical gifts Az {G} ... gimmee gold, and stones, and puter stuff {G}

MORRIGAN:

lol Nestor

ViragoWitch:

LOL, Owl

ViragoWitch:

Yule Party at Nestors!

Azael:

Charms, amulets, poppets, a book shadows entry, quotation, knowledge, etc...

ShadowGypsy:

Like they say Az, Its the thought that counts, i think the gift could be anything, Physical, Mental or Spiritual

MORRIGAN:

I like that idea Azael

MORRIGAN:

for Pagans it would be very meaningful

Xori:

LOL PA

Sword Maiden:

i agree Az

Nestor11:

oh fyi -- if you think about the gospel stories of the nativity -- do you know any self respecting shepherd that would be keeping their folks in the fields by night in Palestine in Dec?

Xori:

I just want a dehydrator for Yule - for me herbs ya know :)

ShadowGypsy:

{g} Xori

ViragoWitch:

folks = flocks?

PAniteowl:

Yeah! Xori!

Nestor11:

yep -- but could be both {vbg}

ViragoWitch:

LOL... good point...

MORRIGAN:

I barely recall the reason for that Nestor but I think someone has one out there...

Nestor11:

it gets cold there too

PAniteowl:

reason for what Chatty?

MORRIGAN:

reason for them to be keeping their flocks at night

Azael:

How about the angels/spirits that rule over the time of Yule? Do you think they are other entities, or do you think they're magical forces projecting directly from each individual?

calluna:

they moved jesus birthday to Yule

PAniteowl:

because that's where the shepherds lived...on the land, with the sheep ...They were not brought into barns they are forage animals

MORRIGAN:

that sounds good to me PA,

Nestor11:

Azael --you might want to consider the concept of a group created "spirit" or force field

THORSSON1:

okay, may I ask a question??

PAniteowl:

Angels? ... I call them fairies ... spirits are everywhere at

all seasons

Nestor11:

with everyone projecting it does have an effect

ViragoWitch:

agreed, Owl

MORRIGAN:

I agree with you Nestor

PAniteowl:

Yep, Nes {G}

THORSSON1:

I was brought up by xtians as some of you were, and many holidays have only the xtain meaning to me, would someone explain yule, concisely if you would like:)

MORRIGAN:

I've often wondered if the Christian concept of Angels is the same as fairies

Vegas 93:

i think so

Nestor11:

yule = re-birth of the Sun Thorsson

ViragoWitch:

I think so, Chatty

PAniteowl:

when we celebrate, and invite the Guardians, the spirits accept the invitation and join with us on a more solid plane

Vegas 93:

cause we welcome presence

PAniteowl:

we ask for their presence, and the manifestation of their beings

THORSSON1:

yes, but what is celebrated during yule?

PAniteowl:

as the solstice is a focal point, the energies are higher and more concentrated

Nestor11:

the renewal of the source of life giving energy --the Sun

PAniteowl:

therefore, the entities, by whatever name you call them, are encouraged to solidify

Wiccanlvr:

Tis the month for contacting the angelic forces. Works best with a seven power candle.

Vegas 93:

angels r as pure as lite light

PAniteowl:

for some, Wiccanlvr ... it's not right for all trads

MORRIGAN:

agreed PA

MORRIGAN:

well this has been a good discussion. I now have something more solid to tell my girls about

ViragoWitch:

glad to hear it, Chatty!

PAniteowl:

The light of candles or bonfires were to remind the God to bring back the sun {G}

MORRIGAN:

I've not wanted to go into it too deeply yet because of my own confusion

MORRIGAN:

but there are all the TV shows, Christian and Jewish mythos stories to deal with....

PAniteowl:

Chatty ... Just look at your regular practices, and "SEE" the original meanings before they were redefined to explain Xian traditions

MORRIGAN:

yes, but there is more to it and my oldest never neglects to ask the "tough" questions

PAniteowl:

You will lose nothing in the translation {G} and you will gain much more understanding of the Old Religion by doing so.

PAniteowl:

My personal opinion is that it is time we "reclaimed" what has been ours all along

MORRIGAN:

I tend to agree with you PA

ViragoWitch:

Works for me, Owl...

Nestor11:

it is also interesting to note that in the early Church --Christmas was a much less important holdiay --the main focus was on Easter --but it becomes more of a celebration when they are taking over community

PAniteowl:

We do not need to invent an "alternative" to Christmas traditions, we just need to make everyone aware of how much of theirs is ours.

Xori:

exactly PA

Azael:

by looking at the Christian traditions of the season of Christmas, it holds more the concept of what Yule is and represents than we've discussed (ex. much of the concept of Christmas spirit)

Nestor11:

they had to give the people something to cover the Solstice celebrations

PAniteowl:

We are not inventing something new here ... we are remembering the old, the way it was supposed to be ...

MORRIGAN:

that's part of the reason behind my quest for info on Santa. I want to teach my kids what he really stands for and why he is said to do what he does

Xori:

hey now - all ya gotta do to get in touch with it is have your power go out for a week right before Yule - I hated it at the time (last year) but it was the best thing to happen to us - really

PAniteowl:

{G} I remember a Yule like that Xori...we had a great time!!!

MORRIGAN:

I had a similar experience one year Xori

PAniteowl:

hmmmm ... was someone trying to tell us something Chatty? {G}

MORRIGAN:

well, I got the message loud and clear!

PAniteowl:

Good for you!!

MORRIGAN:

it was a pioneer Christmas for us

Xori:

yea!! those are the best times!! - you really get in touch with the "experience" of the season

MORRIGAN:

like something out of "Little House on the Prairie"

MORRIGAN:

lol... shall we begin again?

PAniteowl:

In order to understand Yule, you have to put yourself in the place of an ancient, agricultural community...without electricity, indoor plumbing, and shopping malls {G}

ViragoWitch:

{-- feeling this strange feeling of deja vu all over again...{g}

elped:

What exactly is Yule?

PAniteowl:

Oh...can I just drop one little thought???

MORRIGAN:

sure PA

Nestor11:

Yule is basically the celebration of the Winter Solstice or the re-birth of the Sun elped

Xori:

please do PA

PAniteowl:

The standing stones, their settings, and the fact that stone attracts the warmth of the sun

Azael:

Yule is represented best by the number 9 numerological. Giving for the pure pleasure and sake of giving, finding joy in selflessness...

PAniteowl:

this would be a great way for agricultural based communities to know when planting should begin

Azael:

It's become far more a material season though, focusing on material gains during the season, as opposed to the spiritual pleasure meant to be found.

PAniteowl:

the snows would melt at the stones first...because of their heat retention...therefore...they were the planting "time clock"

PAniteowl:

and a source of knowledge for the builders to "read" the land

PAniteowl:

What do you think?

MORRIGAN:

cool PA!

Xori:

yes, yes PA!!!! - totally!!!!

PAniteowl:

It sounds so simple ... yet it makes sense!

{duh}...and I never thought about it before!!

MORRIGAN:

well I think that oftentimes people try to make much more out of things like that than there really was

Xori:

You know what? I did that in my yard this last year and didn't even think about it until you just said that !!

MORRIGAN:

And Az.. I agree with what you said on the Yuletide spirit. Giving selflessly is what it's about

PAniteowl:

If I were a farmer, and needed to know if the ground had warmed enough to plow, or plant ... I'd look at the Stones {G}

PAniteowl:

yeah, Xori...I did too!! {G}

PAniteowl:

I guess we kitchen witches are just too simple minded {G} ... we look for the sense of things {G}

ViragoWitch:

LOL....

Xori:

LOL - hey, it's practical ya know

PAniteowl:

LOL ... Yep!!

marandus:

yes

MORRIGAN:

well folks

MORRIGAN:

it's 10:00...time to close the discussion unless anyone has anything to add before we do ?

PAniteowl:

Thanks Chatty...good job!!!

Xori:

what trips me out is that I do things like that not really realizing what I'm doing at the time till later - see, this season is truly full of wonderful surprises :)

ViragoWitch:

Brava, Chatty.

MORRIGAN:

I didn't DO anything PA! But thank you anyway!

Nestor11:

well thanks Chattie, PA, Sword, Virago, Az and everyone

MORRIGAN:

I want to thank all of you for your participation tonight. Discussions aren't very good when they are one sided

Xori:

Thank You Chatty