Posting dedicated to Elenya on her birthday
- Happy Happy, Joy Joy!

Red Deer:

Shall we begin, Nestor?

NESTOR:

certainly

Red Deer:

All agree to usual rules?... I'll ward the door... All exclude without comment at my call...

NESTOR:

sure that is the best way

Herne:

Will the heralds and Muses please announce the beginning of the Grand tale?

Red Deer:

Well then, friends... Nestor will lead us in discussion of Pagan values illustrated in the Iliad

NESTOR:

thanks Red Deer -- although I had suggested that we all use Fagles version of the Iliad, I know in some cases it was unavailable -- so I would like each of us to start by telling which translation you are using.

Red Deer:

{--- Fagles

NESTOR:

I am using the Robert Fagles

Herne:

"When a man stands up to speak, its well to listen. Not to interrupt him, the only courteous thing. Even the finest speaker finds intrusions hard " Book 19 text 90, Fagles

NESTOR:

LOL You see there is even something for the classes to be found in Homer!

NESTOR:

In order to facilitate the discussion today, rather than type longer passages of text if you wish you may cite them by stating Book .. , line... E.G -- Chryses prayer to Apollo to avenge his daughter capture would be Book 1 , lines 40-50. I understand that there may be some differences in actual line numbering between the translations but it should put you in the general area of the text. I know that some of us , (vbg) are slow and poor typers -- don't worry, the quality of your response is more important than it's speed. That is one of the things we often forget using this medium of communication

Remember that your fellow pagans may not see the same things in the texts that you do, in fact -- expect it! We are not Christians. We all don't have to follow the party line

People have been discussing the Iliad for years and one of the reasons that this is so --is that there are so many ways of viewing things in it. Since this is a discussion group, not a lecture, i hope that all of you will participate freely in what follows. Its success depends on you!!!

NATE DOGG:

it has been so long since I read the Iliad that I don't remember any of it.

NESTOR:

well nate -- grab your nearest copy and join in!.. ok everyone ready?

Herne:

The Olympii exist in realities which are whole, not partials, I would think then that on some levels truths can be many concerning one thing, a single phrase can have many realms

ZenMastr:

yep Nes

Herne:

Yes

WiseWitch:

READY!

DeathDesire:

me neither

Herne:

Ready

I LUV PIZZA:

using Homer here

Red Deer:

{--- YES

NESTOR:

The relationships between the Gods and the mortals in the Iliad seem to be of various natures. Some of the factors seem to be the lineage of the individual, their status within the community, their various roles (balieus, priest, seer, councilor, warrior), and the actions which the individuals takes or has to take

WiseWitch:

????Balieus???? - oh, would you like us to hold questions?

NESTOR:

Balieus -- is an administrative king rather than a wanax who hold it as a sacred office.

Herne:

fascinating

NESTOR:

Would anyone like to comment on this or how this relates to us today as pagans?

Red Deer:

Individuals with individual relationships to deity, it is still so, in my view... What I find fascinating are the often petty levels the Gods sink to in their own relationships

WiseWitch:

And that the Gods expect us to live up to the roles the assign us!

NESTOR:

Does the role which the individual takes effect the relationship?

NATE DOGG:

i think so.

ZenMastr:

agreed...for every individual, there is his or her own relationship... i think that the station in life MUST effect it.

WiseWitch:

Of course it does, Nestor.

NESTOR:

Do they expect more of us than the individual who just lives their drab life

NESTOR:

Wise -please continue

WiseWitch:

I'd say that the Gods show a definite preference for heroes - that heroes are deemed more worthy of the attention of the Gods.

Fang Demon:

I'm confused

Red Deer:

In the Iliad, at least...

NESTOR:

about what Fang?

Herne:

"They are the Gods! Wondersome odd. Who ever recreate themselves, and never know what they are." Goethe

WiseWitch:

And more worthy of their blessings, as heroes will USE those blessings to impact the world (positively or negatively)

NATE DOGG:

i think they prefer heroes in life as well.

Red Deer:

But there is even division among the Gods here, as in the passages re: Achilles and his treatment of Hector's body

Fang Demon:

could someone summarize the big picture

WiseWitch:

I can't recall division there, RD, they seemed united on not abusing the dead body.

NESTOR:

Yes there is, but is there not some common rule which the Gods see to Priam's grief and the return of the body?

Red Deer:

They were divided in their view of Achilles actions, and even fought amongst themselves.

WiseWitch:

On KEEPING the body, yes, but none of them stopped the application of ambrosia and such to keep the body from rotting.

NESTOR:

ok Red Deer -- but in the end do not all agree that the return of the body is part of the 'arte' of the warrior? ('arte' the code of actions)

WiseWitch:

It seems we have to keep in mind that the actions of the Gods here was a mirror of the divisions within the Greek army......as above, so below.......

Red Deer:

I'm not referring to the outcome, but to their squabblings over this vs that hero (in response to the discussion we were having of their preference for heroes)

Herne:

or the keeping of ones enemies head, the eating of their hearts or brains, or?

Red Deer:

Some disparaged Achilles, while others elevated him

NESTOR:

yes -- yet all treat each other with honor --if not as an individual at least the honor of the role which they hold in the community

Fang Demon:

Is the Horse of the Trojan War considered Heroic???

WiseWitch:

That's not in this book, Fang.

Fang Demon:

but is it HEROIC?

WiseWitch:

It accomplished the end that the Gods had ordained, Fang.

Herne:

Achilles seemed to come to that only in the end when Hectors dad made him remember his own dad

NESTOR:

although the "Horse" is outside of the Iliad proper- the tactical skill of Odysseus is usually seen as heroic

Red Deer:

Probably depends on whether you ask the victors or the defeated, Fang

WiseWitch:

Well, yes, Herne, but then the book's unifying theme is birth, maturing and then ending of his anger! Of course the book ends with the ending of his anger.

NESTOR:

At different points in the actions --people make comments on how they view their responsibilities to each other - to their immediate comrades in battle, and their people in general. What can we learn from these values that would be a positive role model for pagans today?

Herne:

That's where the Pagan values are espoused? Ah yes, you answered that

WiseWitch:

Well, leaders are to care for (feed, etc) their troops.

NESTOR:

Herne does not Achilles anger lead to the death of his best friend Partroclus?

WiseWitch:

The Troops, in return, fight hard for their leaders and their personal glory and give the spoils to the leader to divide wisely.

Herne:

and troops are to rape, plunder and pillage

NESTOR:

Is this not anger over much?

Red Deer:

and women are possessions...

WiseWitch:

Anger misplaced leads to destruction - but then so does love in the case of Helen.

NESTOR:

does this not lead us to think about possible consequences of our actions

yes Wise -- that is a good point

Red Deer:

Yes, the Iliad is replete with examples of responsibility coming home to roost, whether one wishes to accept it or not.

SWEETS:

True

NESTOR:

also remember the whole Trojan saga is tied in with Achilles --

Red Deer:

Three-fold Law?

NESTOR:

even its beginning is related to him

Herne:

Achilles anger led him ultimately to his predicted fate

WiseWitch:

Right, at the wedding of his parents.

NESTOR:

is it not at the marriage of Thetis and Peleus that the Apple of Discord was thrown?

WiseWitch:

If we see Agie's refusal to return the priest's daughter as anger misplaced - he's really angry at Apollo for supporting the Trojans - then it's HIS anger that starts this story.

NESTOR:

yes a leader who is overstepping his bounds by taking back something that he had given for services rendered

Herne:

Yes Nestor, and the boy chose beauty and was rude to wisdom and

NESTOR:

Achilles has a just anger but it goes beyond it limits and then cause the death of his friend

WiseWitch:

Nestor, what would have been the impact had Achilles fought but refused to take any gifts/booty from Aggie?

NESTOR:

Wise you were mentioning what the leaders gave to their troops. does not the leader of any community owe something to their people? the greater honor would have been to Achilles -- he already knew from the start what his fate was

Red Deer:

yes...leadership is far more of a responsibility than a privilege...although those who are not leaders often fail to recognize this

WiseWitch:

I'd say that leaders have lots of responsibilities, but am uncomfortable with the term 'owe', but I'm not sure what the root of that discomfort is.

NESTOR:

does not the individual leader fall under some form of "noblesse obilge"

WiseWitch:

Exactly, Nestor. he knew he'd not enjoy the booty - not even the women that long. So if honor was the issue, he had other ways of getting even greater honor. Owing makes it sound like a debt that can be paid and be done with, maybe, Nestor. Responsibility goes on and on and on.................

Herne:

Paris's action, not in choosing beauty, but in offending the other two goddesses, who represent kingship and heroism was a bad move by a leader

NESTOR:

Paris is placed in a bad situation in having to make the choice but even later his actions do not reflect his acceptance of the events that he has set in motion reflect

WiseWitch:

Herne, I don't think that Paris had been trained as a leader at that point. Hadn't he been exposed as a child and still was as the son of a shepherd?

NESTOR:

even his own brother Hector criticizes him for it

Herne:

Yes, raised by a centaur

toejamm:

I agree, to put it in modern terms he let his passions influence his judgment and forgot about his responsibilities

NESTOR:

Wise very good point --maybe there is something about a leader no matter how he is born or natural to it --must be trained

Red Deer:

And would not most 'common' men choose beauty over kingship and heroism?

WiseWitch:

AH, toe! That reminds me - that is the 'reversed' meaning of the Tarot card The Lovers!

toejamm:

No...I don't think so.. beauty is transitory.

NESTOR:

do we train our leaders in the pagan community to lead

WiseWitch:

Not usually, Nestor.

Herne:

It was not in the choice, but in his rudeness Red Deer

NESTOR:

maybe that is something that we should begin to consider

Herne:

We have leaders? I thought that we were just an amorphous mass

toejamm:

perhaps leadership and educating leaders through stories was what the Iliad was all about

NESTOR:

each of us is a leader if only by example

WiseWitch:

Herne, while getting Pagans to act in concert is like herding cats, yes, we certainly have some followers so there MUST be some leaders!

Herne:

you cannot herd cats

Red Deer:

yes, Herne, even a common man should recognize the importance of courtesy

toejamm:

What about Achilles sulking in his tent when he did not get his way, and the friends who died because of it.

WiseWitch:

::::::wanted to get MISS MANNERS as a BB guest::::::::::::::

Herne:

or the mistake in offending such things as the gods or truth Red Deer :}

NESTOR:

but when people give of themselves to support an idea or cause --those who benefit need to do things to return that loyalty and honor

Red Deer:

Thus far, we have discussed only the roles of men... What lessons are taught by the women of the Iliad?

NESTOR:

look at the word of Sarpedon to Glacus (Book 12 , lines 360 -380) is there not an obligation realized there

Red Deer:

I, personally, am especially fascinated with Cassandra...

Herne:

Yes Nestor, but so many just want to lounge about the boats

toejamm:

Lets talk of Helen of troy

NESTOR:

Red Deer --good point -- what of the women in the Iliad

Red Deer:

Well, Helen is pictured by most as the prize, but did she not - in truth - go willingly to Troy?

NESTOR:

yes Helen is a major player but also Hector's wife

WiseWitch:

Mostly they were property, but even property had roles.

Herne:

Interesting, is she not Red Deer, maybe there were witches among the Greeks and Romans, an older mystery tradition right in their midst, which they feared

Red Deer:

And Cassandra as a madwoman...but was it not Apollo's anger toward her that caused her prophecies to be disbelieved (not inaccurate, just disbelieved)?

Red Deer:

Herne, most certainly there were, as the antiquity of Hecate demonstrates...

WiseWitch:

Hector's wife was cool. Worried about her husband, her fate, and the fate of her child - but still sending her husband to fight and pointing out the city's weak spots rather than urging running

NESTOR:

Notice that Helen is aware of the results of her actions (Book 3 lines 209- 211)

toejamm:

one should compare Helen with Penelope...again a lesson

NESTOR:

very good point toejam

toejamm:

god i'm good

WiseWitch:

I didn't think that Penelope held up her responsibilities that well, personally. She was letting the suitors eat and drink and squander the riches of the kingdom.

toejamm:

I think she maintained her kingdom while Odysseus was away...she did all right.

Red Deer:

But, in that way, she upheld the kingship while she awaited Odysseus' return, WW

NESTOR:

it is interesting to note Agamemnon fate when he returns home and that even in the Iliad he does not take responsibility for his own actions see Book 19, line 100 -102 "I am not to blame, Zeus and Fate and the Fury stalking thought the night, they are the ones who drove that savage madness in my heart"

WiseWitch:

Did Meneleus ever take any responsibility?

Herne:

Yes, well, fates and the furies, we do not make them

Herne:

and whom the gods would destroy no one can save

NESTOR:

speaking of the role of Fate -- note that even Zeus accepts that as part of the Natural order of things which he up holds - note Zeus yielding of his son Sarpedon to the will of Fate (Book 16, line 515-550) and the response of the other Gods to that

Red Deer:

Yes, even Zeus recognizes that being king of the gods does not make him Creator(ix)... or all powerful

NESTOR:

that is one of the major differences between us and the Christians --we can see that there are boundaries of actions

Red Deer:

I disagree, Nestor...there are both Pagans and Christians on either side of that fence

Herne:

Nestor, we talk of Pagan values and ethics, and of the role of the Gods in our mortal life, what to you is the best instruction that we receive from the Iliad?

NESTOR:

that we must learn to do our duty and accept our fate and help carry out the will of the Gods with as much nobility and honor as we can

Red Deer:

and humor...

NESTOR:

and Humor too!

Red Deer:

Do not the God/dess/es love those well who go to their fate with a smile?

NESTOR:

if the Gods did not love laughter --why else would they have created us?

Red Deer:

LOL

Herne:

laughing at our deaths, what do the gods wish for us then, what is their will?

NESTOR:

very true Red Deer --note the similarity to that attitude with those of the Norse

Red Deer:

and the Celts! who went to their deaths in battle, not only with a smile but with an erection!

Herne:

death matters not, it's not how we die, but how we live

NESTOR:

are we not all part of one larger pagan community? no how you die is important too Herne

WiseWitch:

Well, that's debatable, Nestor! [g] (the one community thing)

Herne:

Sorry, I don't get sexually turned on by killing someone

NESTOR:

neither do i

Red Deer:

that was not the point, guys

NESTOR:

Wise -- that does not mean that we are going to agree on things -- but that we do have some common roots

Herne:

Nestor, most of us will probably die attached to tubes in a hospital room

Red Deer:

we live now in a world where we would rather not value fighting... this (of necessity) has not always been true

NESTOR:

but there are different type of struggles today but they still value the courage of the warrior

WiseWitch:

Even the Pagan community does not value it, Nestor. All the fluff bunnies!

Herne:

I love beating the crud out of folks that deserve it Red Deer, but its not a sexual pleasure

NESTOR:

and of the wisdom too

BLAWK HAWK:

do you really think that mankind can truly pull away totally from fighting....after all it has been there way since the beginning

Red Deer:

I don't think the act reflected pleasure, Herne, any more than smiling in the face of adversity does...it reflected an ideal of heroism

WiseWitch:

Black Hawk there are LOTS of folks in the pagan community who think that all can be 'perfect love and perfect trust' everywhere. I'm not one of them [g]

Herne:

nothing wrong with fighting for a just cause, today to many that would benefit from a punch in their noses are denied it

Red Deer:

and a recognition of the battle-lust that has been inbred in us for countless millennia

NESTOR:

if we accept life as a purifying struggle then it can have deeper meaning for us and we like the heroes in the Iliad can show our true worth. there is a hero in the woman who is struggle to raise children alone. there is a hero in the person who is teaching others and giving of themselves

Red Deer:

I don't accept life as a struggle, Nestor...but as a beautiful opportunity to experience Nature, and one which holds some struggles

NESTOR:

the hero now comes in many roles

Red Deer:

"The Hero with a Thousand Faces"...

NESTOR:

note that in the pagan community today we like the hero of the Iliad have a direct and personal relationship to our Gods

Herne:

The less spectacular, the quiet heroes, whose day to day life is a continuous act of heroism, they deserve rather the laurel wreaths,

WiseWitch:

Heroes always did, Nestor. I seem to recall Odysseus getting great help from a shepherd when taking back his kingdom.

NESTOR:

yes Wise that is true

Herne:

OK, now, who the heck are the Olympii?

WiseWitch:

You want their names, Herne?? [g]

NESTOR:

can we see ourselves in the people of the Iliad?

WiseWitch:

Us, Nestor? Who here gets angry?????????/

NESTOR:

LOL

Herne:

No WW, I want their #'s, got questions

Red Deer:

We should certainly be able to... the Greeks understood the human psyche better than most any one until the advent of 'modern' psychology

WiseWitch:

1-900-555-GODSRUS.

Red Deer:

But I don't identify with any one character...rather they each exemplify different aspects of the human state

Herne:

who me?

NESTOR:

Red Deer -- if the Gods are indeed part of us --then the pantheon and its interactions are part of our psychology

WiseWitch:

Herne, between you, Nestor, and I we are just mellow cattle!

Red Deer:

LOL!!!

NESTOR:

PaleHawk -- any comment you have be silent too long my Sister

PaleHawk:

(s) I have been listening thoroughly and am still disturbed

WiseWitch:

Disturbed by what, Pale?

NESTOR:

about what PaleHawk--what in the Iliad disturbs you?

Herne:

Wise Witch, I like Achilles straightforward approaches,

WiseWitch:

Herne, I don't see pouting as straightforward (but then I have a 7 year old......)

PaleHawk:

As I told you Nestor, I love the Odyssey but hated the Iliad .. it is hard for me to understand why such forces can not change... the outcome instead of falling into a plain of no end

NESTOR:

well here there is at least one character in the Iliad that I relate too

WiseWitch:

LOL Nestor!

Herne:

Nestor, Homer poked fun of him as being somewhat long winded, I do not see that you are

NESTOR:

when the Iliad is placed in the large cycle of the Trojan war

PaleHawk:

giggle

Herne:

except in the early days when someone would ask you to recommend a book on the Craft and you would beat around the bush for an hour and a half

NESTOR:

and then it is placed in the cycle of the House of Atreus it begins to make sense

WiseWitch:

Ah, but if we are adding it to the House of Atreus do we have to add the DUNE books? [g]

NESTOR:

the story does not begin nor end with the Iliad

Red Deer:

According to Herbert, it does not even end 60,000 years into the future!

NESTOR:

the Iliad is just one short phase of the war and its causes and results

NESTOR:

if we look at other works of the Greeks about the entire cycle there is much to be learned too

Herne:

and is not this first class hopefully the beginning here of a study group on the Classics and what they offer the Pagans of today?

PaleHawk:

Why is it that if we are "evolved" so much do we still allow others around us to dictate how we react? Defending for purposes of surviving I agree with.. Please don't take me wrong

NESTOR:

yes Herne hopefully this is only the beginning

WiseWitch:

GREAT, Pale! Like when we don't simply exclude folks that disrupt this room..........

PaleHawk:

exactly Wise

Herne:

Pale Hawk, we are not as evolved as what we think, Homers portrayal of us is how we are, several thousands, even hundreds of thousands of years do not evolve us that far

NESTOR:

Palehawk My Sister -- look are the reality of living in a 'polis' and being part of a 'civitus' -- can we escape the influence of others totally?

WiseWitch:

Pale, let's look at the 'wall' that the Greeks built to defend their ships. Did that work or did battle work?

PaleHawk:

I see us as if WE are still in the iliad stage... and that concerns me greatly

Herne:

That is one of the objections I have to the New Agers, who think that we can jump to "White Light Beings" within a three week period in a single incarnation

PaleHawk:

No..... granted Nestor, Brother, but we can and should be taking more control

NESTOR:

PaleHawk as we continue our studies of the great pagan writer I am sure you will see changes in attitudes and theologies

Red Deer:

LOL Herne

PaleHawk:

I realize that, Nestor, however, it is still an individual basis... not on a whole...

NESTOR:

there are many other works to be studied and each one will illuminate other part of us as human beings but understand under it all there still is the savage might of the Iliad

Herne:

Evolution is a slow go individually and socially it seems as well, we are technologically advanced and so think that those from the past simply cannot match us, that they are primitive, and

NESTOR:

that is part of our Western heritage

Herne:

therefore ignorant.

PaleHawk:

I am not technically referring to the " Mass " but how about the leaders themselves?

NESTOR:

hopefully as we learn and talk to others about the meaning and values found in these works --a development of knowledge will occur

Red Deer:

McClain (the noted neurophysiologist) has shown that reptilian behaviors still emanate from deep within our lower brains...and that's MILLIONS of years old...we can't escape our biology with a wish...

WiseWitch:

Pale, could it be that our leaders aren't 'reactive' so much as they act differently than you would?

PaleHawk:

exactly Brother..................

NESTOR:

each of us has a leadership role to play but we must understand our root if we are to bear the sweet fruit later

Herne:

Our "Western Heritage" was stolen in the earlier centuries AD, we are just now taking a step backwards to it, finding meanings again that were hidden by the darkness of the Christians

Red Deer:

Yes, Nestor, and that is what too many of us fail to recognize

PaleHawk:

Not necessarily WW....

Herne:

What is our "root" Nestor?

Druid:

I have also read that Red Deer, and it makes sense!

NESTOR:

our root go even further back than the Iliad

Red Deer:

much further!

Herne:

Tell us Nestor

PAniteowl:

Aye

NESTOR:

but it is the first example generally available to us of a Western text

Herne:

Tell us Red Deer

Black Hawk:

i would think back to the beginning of man

WiseWitch:

Our roots are less the taproots that vines have and more the deep but spread roots of trees.

Red Deer:

back to the beginning of life, itself (g)

Silver Lady:

agreed Red Deer

Black Hawk:

agreed red deer

Herne:

well, maybe not THAT far, how bout just stick to Homo Sapiens Sapiens?

PAniteowl:

As each "clan" developed, a personality of belief was shared within the clans ... so many "roots"

Red Deer:

I think that far Herne, a species represents the culmination of all that has gone before it, and contains all that has gone before..."Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny!"

DRUlD:

The universe is a Dream of which we are a part. All matter becomes conscious via the dream. We all have our own dreams that are a part of the universal dream.

NESTOR:

yes but at this time the roots of the West are under attack from those who would make us little robots and consumers only

WiseWitch:

Nestor, have you read the manifesto from the Unabomber?

PAniteowl:

Ahh Nestor ... that is the way of all peoples ... there will be those with closed minds who try to manipulate the masses

Herne:

Yes, that's why in my trad we, (not me, yet) can ADD to our BOS (etc) but not detract from it

NESTOR:

this class on the Iliad has been just a beginning in an attempt to educate ourselves in our heritage

no Wise I haven't

Herne:

uh oh, does he mention Pagans?

NESTOR:

PA I do not know of a tradition in the Craft that does not allow for change

DancingAngel:

I request that you don't stereotype "Christians" because of the deeds of some. We are not all of the same theology.

WiseWitch:

How is being a reactive consumer different than being a reactive subsistence farmer/hunter?

Red Deer:

May we anticipate the Odyssey, Aneid, etc.. Nestor? and the Tragedies?

WiseWitch:

I haven't read that far into it yet, Herne.

Silver Lady:

neither are pagans/wiccans Angel

PAniteowl:

I was not speaking of evolutionary change Nestor, I was speaking of manipulative change

Herne:

Can we do the Bacchants?

Red Deer:

Well spoken, Angel

DancingAngel:

I understand and listen with an open mind and heart

NESTOR:

yes -- I think maybe Hesiod's Homeric Hymns should be next --there is much of the theology in all of Hesiod's works

Silver Lady:

that is to your credit Angel

NESTOR:

yes Odessey, Aneid, Bacchants, the Sopholcean plays too

Herne:

Well, we is manipulated, any of you read the earlier portions of Herne's Place on the conceptualization of the self?

WiseWitch:

And maybe in December or January I'll do the Neibelungenlied if no Astatru is available to lead that.............

NESTOR:

then to Julian and Marcus Arulius

Red Deer:

This has been great! A thousand thank yous, Nestor...but I must feed little witches lunch.

Red Deer:

Great WW!

NESTOR:

that is Great Wise Witch!!!!!

Red Deer:

Brightest Blessings & Merry Part, All

And, thank you again, Nestor!