Archetypes and Expectations: the Role of the Childless in the Craft Facilitator : Norda Date : 21 September 1997

Red Deer:
Before we begin, please consider leading a session of Wicca 101... everyone has something to offer! To volunteer, E-mail me:HUZD95A@prodigy.com
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2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.
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thanks loggers
with that, I pass the besom to Norda for tonight's discussion of "Archetypes and Expectations: the Role of the Childless in the Craft"

Norda:
{----staggering under the weight of the besom...

Arcadia:
{-----propping Norda up

Norda:
Seriously, folks, I did have this topic worked out in notes, but it came off as very pretentious...

Red Deer:
rofl... and helps Norda keep her balance

Norda:
so I'm going to wing this with some random thoughts which were triggered by a friend's comments... She had said to me, bemoaning her own childless state, "I don't want to go from Maiden to Crone without having experienced the Mother in myself..." Now, I have no children of my womb, as Meli puts it... but I have quite a few children of my heart... and it seems that I'm just as much a "dad" as I am a "mom" to these dear ones... For those who don't know me, I'm new in my practice, only about three years...I do not have formal training in many traditions... Thank you for bearing with my slow typing...

PAniteowl:
Hang in there Norda .. it's happened to all of us {G}

Norda:
Anyway... my thoughts were running along the ideas of the Universal Archetypes... Maiden/Mother/Crone... Scholar/Father/Sage... and I was thinking of all the practitioners of Wicca I have known, and their various families they have either created themselves or become a part of through accretion... So... for example, my male friends R. and J., who are a bonded couple, are both very "male" in many traditional ways. But neither fathers children... So I have lots of "adopted" young 'uns about who like to do "boy" things like baseball and comic books and car repair with me... The thought I ask myself is, hey, I can see myself moving towards The Mother without having borne kids... and The Father too... but is there any modern documentation for this? If anyone is still with me, I'm open for discussion from heads wiser and more experienced than mine... just keep those opinions clean {VBG}

melilot:
i'm not a mother never will be a mother but boy have i mothered a few

Cloudburst:
If the definition of mother includes them listening to me, I'm much more the mother of my students than my children{G} boy children, anyway - maybe I'll send them to Norda{G}

Norda:
I just feel confused by my friend's comment...the one about fearing Crone-hood without Mother-hood

melilot:
i think mother covers many different area's it's the healer who soothes the fevered brow i really don't think you can enter crone via maiden without touching the mother norda we have those traits even if we don't want them

Red Deer:
agrees that one does not have to bear children to take on the parental role

Cloudburst:
Seriously, I've always seen all the aspects as less physical conditions than some combo of function and circumstances. If womb's the qualifier, I never had the "phase" either

Norda:
R. and J. view themselves as bother Mother and Father...although J. is really just a kid himself

Cloudburst:
right Meli, healer's a function of Mother

melilot:
i've seen women who have given birth who have no "mother" aspect

Norda:
But, Red Deer, I've seen rituals of Croning...never seen ritual for Father given to the female & vice versa...

Cloudburst:
I've mothered a few of those people's kids, meli{G}

Norda:
those are the archetypes I question some days agreed, Cloud...

melilot:
i think mother is the need to nurture, to help, to guide and as we do this we are also leaning

Palastien:
adoptive parents consider themselves true parents and not all people who give birth are good mothers

Norda:
true, Pala,...I think I should have said at the outset that my point was that birth didn't endow parenthood

melilot:
adoptive parents are true parents the others are the biological parents they haven't had any parenting aspects to the child

Palastien:
that's what i meant

Elenya:
whether adoptive or not, the nurturing "Mother" and "Father" instincts are there

Red Deer:
Norda - i didna say mothering I said parenting... I think the individual has to pick which is the one more *them*

melilot:
i think i'd make a darn good daddy to some lost boys

Norda:
but....what rituals and traditions are out there for those who are moving in their lives to parenthood without giving birth or propagating?

ValkyrieFire:
So we're talking about people who are in the "mother" stage of life who are childless?

Palastien:
its the act of love and caring that makes any women have the aspects of motherhood i am not good at putting things into words sorry

ValkyrieFire:
What age is that?

Red Deer:
with no reflection on my masculinity (or lack thereof, depending upon your viewpoint)

ValkyrieFire:
Why put physical boundaries on an archetype anyway? I've always thought that I fit more into society's view of a mother than a father

melilot:
i really don't see a difference between mothering and fathering other than the sex of the person, what is done is the same

Norda:
That's a good point, Val...for me, it's not my age but my lifestyle that's moving me there

ValkyrieFire:
well, I'm still young, but I intend to never have children

Cloudburst:
Norda, in coven trads initiation at the functioning priesthood level (1st or second, depending) can be somewhat the ritual you're wondering about.

melilot:
that doesn't mean you'll never be a mother valk {G}

ValkyrieFire:
my career will be my child, and I will still be a "mother" I am one now. I have all aspects within me

Cloudburst:
Dunno for solitaries, though I'm thinking RD's rededication was a prototype...

Norda:
Ahhhh, so that's why it hit such a chord!

Red Deer:
???

Norda:
{-----still learning.

Cloudburst:
I think so. Hit on the "help me help others" level that is part of the parental function priesthood fulfills

ValkyrieFire:
Mel I want to be a mother just like you! {bg}

melilot:
LOL valk be careful what you want valk you might just get it {EG}

Xori:
so true

ValkyrieFire:
but I do want it... I'd be an awful mother anyway, so being childless is a good option for me. But I still want to help others and have my own career that I nurture

Norda:
I'm a better aunt than I'd be a mother, but I'm a born caretaker...if that's more the Mother than the Father, so mote it be...

ValkyrieFire:
BRB

Norda:
Maybe I should have blithered along with my notes...

Red Deer:
I'm curious... how does one know whether one would be a good mother or father having never undertaken it?

Cloudburst:
Wish I could figure that out, Red Deer - it would ease the creation of a parenting license system{G}

Red Deer:
which we could sorely use...

Cloudburst:
If we could figure out a test my #1 son would flunk and sell it to the govt....{G}

Norda:
Oh, Cloud...

Cloudburst:
Trust me, Norda. I wouldn't give up his baby for the world, but wish the kid had been blessed with a different bio father

Norda:
As far as having children, biology has decided against it for me.

melilot:
i don't think anyone is able to judge the abilities of another when it comes to parenting it's not a reliable science {G} what works for one doesn't for another

Palastien:
ok let me open mouth and insert foot again i think the mother hood phase come when we learn to love and share and become less selfless and more willing to give to others

Red Deer:
or that the biofather had been blessed with parenting skills perhaps cloud?

Cloudburst:
Perhaps that, Red Deer{G}

Red Deer:
works for me Pala

melilot:
what if being selfish and less willing to give to others is what is needed for the child's growth?

Norda:
But I was in the position to be an adoptive parent, and feared too much to muck up a splendid kid...I'm glad another family was there to take him in...

Red Deer:
then the child needs therapy meli

Elenya:
them my kids are in for a rough ride, meli {g}

Cloudburst:
That's important, Pala

melilot:
Red Deer you can't always give if you want the child to grow into a functioning adult they do have to learn that life isn't all handed to them

Red Deer:
so, out of curiosity...

melilot:
most of the children i've seen with "selfless" parents are now in therapy Red Deer {G}

Red Deer:
are we agreeing that EVEN IN RITUAL the mother / father roles are neither limited to those who biologically are?

melilot:
they found out the world isn't selfless

Red Deer:
nor even to those who biologically can be?

Cloudburst:
I'm definitely agreeing with that, Red Deer

melilot:
i don't think biology has anything to do with the parent aspect

Norda:
Yes here, Red Deer [thank you for lending a hand to the floundering topic...]

Red Deer:
then you'd agree that, should I choose to, I might aspect the Lady? or El the Lord?

Cloudburst:
RED DEER, I think you do sometimes

Norda:
I know what I wanted to say on this, but 'tisn't coming out right

melilot:
we each have both sides in us so i say why not

Elenya:
I don't see why not, RD, but I'm sure some would disagree

Red Deer:
someone somewhere, but not seemingly in here... drat

ValkyrieFire:
what?

melilot:
but i do think el would make a most wonderful lady you'd need much makeup for {EG}

Norda:
you begging for a fight, RD? {VBG}

melilot:
and maybe some minor surgery {EG}

Cloudburst:
Sorry, can't play devil's advocate on this one -dadrattit, I AGREE with you

Elenya:
lol
melilot:
ok i'll argue with the deer... i don't think under any circumstances a MALE should aspect the lady.

Red Deer:
and WHY NOT meli?

melilot:
CAUSE THE ROBE WOULD BE BUMPPY IN THE WRONG PLACES

Norda:
LOLOLOL!!!!!

Elenya:
roflmao

Red Deer:
I think, when aspecting, the power of our Lady would take care of the bumps sis

Cloudburst:
{--- can see a thealogical basis for meli's first part of that fight, though I don't agree with it...

ValkyrieFire:
LOL... Wait

Red Deer:
oh, would that be ONE bump or TWO???

melilot:
i don't think anything short of MAJOR surgery would help your "bump"

ValkyrieFire:
guys can aspect the Lady

Elenya:
whatever happened to symbolism, meli {g}???

ValkyrieFire:
I've seen it

Norda:
But....I ***wanna*** be a Sage when I grow up....about 90 years from now...

melilot:
heheheh el norda i wanna be a maiden in 90 yrs {EG}

Arcadia:
again Meli?

Norda:
{-----passing meli her "Recycled Virgin" button

melilot:
got one {EG} kewwl... always arc {G}

Red Deer:
just move to the South and be a Perpetual Virgin meli

melilot:
ok red i'll loan ya my boobs to do the aspecting and i'll loan el my old broom stick {EG} i couldn't do "perpetual" red

VVolfShade:
But keep looking over both shoulders when your male relatives are around...

melilot:
why wolf there not greek they do frontal attacks

VVolfShade:
Actually, they tend to come from the side...driver's side of that 4X4 pickup, that is....

Red Deer:
my back is now protected {g}

Norda:
So....on a slightly serious note...is there nothing more to the Father/Sage aspect than sex? We've established the motherish stuff.

Cloudburst:
{--looking forward to seeing that, RED DEER{G}

Red Deer:
well, I personally attach MUCH importance to sex Norda but, then there would also be strength, protection, hunting,

Norda:
so do I, in both male and female aspects... Knowledge?

Red Deer:
providing, watching football {g}

ValkyrieFire:
Everyone has the MALE and the FEMALE in them... the hunter and the gatherer

Norda:
hey, it's basketball or nothing in this house!

Cloudburst:
I think physical gender is only important as we think it is, if it's aspecting we're thinking about.

ValkyrieFire:
it all depends on how much of each you want to portray

Elenya:
aye Val, and Cloud

Cloudburst:
Maybe even on the football-watching level, actually...{G}

ValkyrieFire:
LOL... I just watch the Packers Games

Elenya:
{----watches more sports than RD

Red Deer:
{--- thinks physical gender is ONLY important for reproduction

ValkyrieFire:
all others SUCK! {bg}

Red Deer:
by far deerie

Norda:
If it's providing where football is concerned, who provides the snacks, huh?

Cloudburst:
Cush loves football and was never able to hook the boys{G}

VVolfShade:
Don't forget proper undergarment fit, RED DEER....

Norda:
indeedy, WolfShade....

HeavenTo:
don't we all show different sides for different times? female and male i mean? we all have both aspects and enrich our lives with both qualities?

Red Deer:
doesn't seem she needed to cloud {g}

Cloudburst:
Good point, RED DEER, they have other ideas of violent fun

Red Deer:
not interested in violence, just fun... and you all know that fun starts with a capitol S

Cloudburst:
I meant the sons, RED DEER, what boys are you referring to?

Red Deer:
me?

Cloudburst:
{oops} slow on the uptake, just got yer joke{G}

Norda:
S.....for skinny-dipping...spam....sun....soup...

Red Deer:
oh, you meant YOUR boys with the football thing I was thinking like DATING

Cloudburst:
yup {-figured that out{G}

ValkyrieFire:
d-d-d-d-dating?

Cloudburst:
S....sunbathing, sourballs, sweet pickles, science...

Red Deer:
well folks, the toolie bar now says 10:00 and time to end {frown} SEX

Cloudburst:
...smiles, serendipity, spells, speculative fiction...{VBG}

Norda:
Siamese cats...

Red Deer:
cloud, SEX

Norda:
Socks....

Red Deer:
thanks loggers...

Norda:
Thanks, everyone for letting me blither...

Red Deer:
and thanks Norda for a most thought provoking(and SEX, er, fun) discussion

Elenya:
Thank you , Norda

Norda:
I'll be more organized...if there's a next time...

Red Deer:
sure hope there will be Norda

Cloudburst:
Jeeze, why do we have to stick to just one S word? {pout}

PAniteowl:
Thanks Norda .. I apologize for not being able to stay with ya, I keep getting bumped!

HeavenTo:
blessings Norda