MORRIGAN:

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA 101! Tonight our class is being offered by PAniteowl. She will be giving an explanation of the Tradition degree system.

As a courtesy to our host, please keep all greetings, farewells and side conversations in IM until class is over.

Likewise, please hold all questions and comments until discussion is called for by our host.

Disrupters will be warned once by the Chat Host. If disruptive behavior persists their exclusion will be called for.

When an exclusion is called, all are asked to do so WITHOUT comment either to or about the excludee.

In case of disaster {g} could one or two of you who plan on attending the entire class please log as back up?

And with that I surrender the floor to PAniteowl

PAniteowl:

thanks Chatty

OK... let's keep this simple. The question of "who initiated the first witch" is valid and the answer is... self initiation!! Now that is a simple statement but when a group effort is structured the ideas of "degrees", or benchmarks also seem valid. So, when we discuss degrees of initiation, we are talking about the practices of the Trads. Not a general requirement of the craft. Any comments?

OK... Then lets figure this practice out in a way that is acceptable to all. As a student, you start as a lowly freshman. You are the "seeker" of knowledge. The "school" you attend has a criteria, or a curriculum which you study, and are tested on. This study can include reading, lab work, homework, and you even can receive credit for life experience. Most Trads have an agreed upon curriculum of study for their novitiates. This would definitely include reading, homework, and testing. You may be called upon to participate in specific rituals; you may even be asked to write a Ritual for a specific holiday. Once you have shown an adeptness, and a willingness to learn you could achieve a degree, which basically states that you have knowledge of a rite within the Trad. It is a recognition of your efforts, and accomplishments. Some Trads mark this with a number of rituals, and allow the degreed person to wear the knotted cord, or carry a specific tool. All Trads have developed their own requirements, and some, not all, recognize degrees from other Trads.

Everyone with me so far??? Any questions???

Nestor:

well if you see the 1st degree or initiations a "re-birth" into the family or community - much of the symbolism of the ritual becomes clear plus the pre-initiation work is seen part of the gestation period

ViragoWitch:

I'm with you so far!

TargeDubh:

Yes

PAniteowl:

Yes, Nes. But some of the Trads which use "re-birth" as the basis,

Bre:

I know this must sound stupid, but what is a Trad? (I'm new)

PAniteowl:

have been a bit off-putting {G}

nexxus:

could you please fill me in on what you are discussing

PAniteowl:

Bre... Trad. a Tradition. sorry, I should have been more explicit

MORRIGAN:

Trad=Tradition, a certain way to practice Wicca, there are many different Traditions out there Bre

nexxus:

thanks

PAniteowl:

I will not go into specific Trad performances, or requirements. That is not for an open class

ViragoWitch:

agreed.

PAniteowl:

and many Trads protect their rites very carefully, so I would not want to insult any. But for all to realize that entering into a "community" of witches with an established procedural outline, does entail responsibility

nexxus:

PA are there any resources for finding the many Trads I have always been a self practitioner

PAniteowl:

The craft asks that you follow the rules, but it also "teaches" those rules through the coven hierarchy. There are some rules which all adopt within their own Trad ways

Nestor:

yes PA, and in many there is a "Oath" or responsibility which is sworn at that time which is part of the rebirth and binding process

PAniteowl:

Yes, Nestor. the binding process is important

Fumanchu:

interesting.

PAniteowl:

Now, the degrees of initiation are based on knowledge, participation, and {sad to say at times} popularity {G} but sometimes, leaders are found within the structures set by one Tradition, who are totally unsuited to act as a guide in other Trads. I have known Solitaries who are so well grounded and adept, and I have known High Priest/ess who I wouldn't follow to a pet store {G}

ViragoWitch:

LOL!

MORRIGAN:

{g}

Nestor:

LOL -- agreed!

TargeDubh:

Agreed

ViragoWitch:

agreed!

Fumanchu:

Fascinating!

Red Deer:

aye PA

melilot:

you bet ya pa

PAniteowl:

but most Solitaries. when they study the various paths, adopt many of the coven aspects, and self initiate.

nexxus:

I cant comment because I've never been in a sect

PAniteowl:

This too, is a viable degree. But not too many are recognized as such. {G}

Red Deer:

again, aye

TargeDubh:

True

Nestor:

quite true PA

PAniteowl:

The degree system works within a given group, because it satisfies that particular working

MissKityn:

sad but true

PAniteowl:

Over all, within the Craft. We are all equal. I know of no one person who knows all about the various Trads, yet part of the path is to honor and respect many variations. There is room for all. I may respect another Trad, but I feel no urge to embrace that path. I would not take a degree from one Trad and expect an automatic recognition in ALL.

ViragoWitch:

translation: We do not work like the military.

PAniteowl:

But for those who feel most comfortable within a group setting, then yes, degrees are important

PAniteowl:

{G} Yes VW

Of the many practices, and methods of determining "who" is more adept, or more expert much depends on the requirements of the group effort.

Fumanchu:

Are those involved allowed to think freely?

Nestor:

the internal system of initiation and elevations while being mainly focused within a single Trad, does however often assist in the understanding of the level of the other person for another Trad

PAniteowl:

Yes, Nestor. but what has happened in many Trads is that a coven is started with "no homework" {G} and the degree is only as good as the group techniques for determining levels of skill and commitment. A solid, working group, be it called coven or gathering, can indeed recognize within itself, those who have progressed

Nestor:

indeed that is a major problem and one of the reasons that some of the people who while being very qualified and enlightened are sometimes only slowly absorbed and respected by others

PAniteowl:

True Nestor Priestess26: I am currently using To Ride a Silver Broomstick to help me with my "homework"....is the recommended reading or should I find a teacher to guide me? But if all understand that there is a requirement, and that it does take work, study , dedication then they also realize that there is a responsibility that comes with the "degrees" These are not "easy" paths that we follow, but for me, they are the most rewarding

Nestor:

One of the benefits of the "higher" degrees is that you get to work harder!

PAniteowl:

Not in search of a "degree", nor in peer recognition but within the awakening of the power of the Deities

ViragoWitch:

How true, Nestor.

PAniteowl:

Not as an observer, but as a participant in a far older dance of the earth, than many can even conceive

Red Deer:

{--- loves to dance that dance

PAniteowl:

Each will know when they are "ready" for the next step

{G} me too RD

and many will find others who will aid and assist them. The major trick or treat here, is to know that we never stop learning {G}. Within the Craft, we go from Kindergarten right through the Masters programs {G}

Nestor:

PA - I like your terming them as "responsibilities" for the participation in further work --into the deeper "mysteries" if you want to use that term and for contact with other "forces" which require a more stable participant

PAniteowl:

but just as a PHD in Literature, does not make you a Math expert, so does a degree in one path, lack the level of expertise in another path. So Degrees are relative. IMHO

Red Deer:

{--- raises hand

PAniteowl:

Now, any questions??? Comments

PAniteowl:

RD???

Red Deer:

PA - I'm reminded of a grad school saying. while some folks get ADVANCED degrees, others get Bull Sh*t, More Sh*t or sh*t Piled Higher & Deeper

MORRIGAN:

LOL

PAniteowl:

ROFL!!!

Red Deer:

so the degree is only worth from whence it came, and who earned it.

TargeDubh:

How can a solitary who doesn't have access to others advance in degrees?

PAniteowl:

Yes... RD, I respect the degrees of all paths, but do not necessarily accept all that comes from the "Degreed"

ViragoWitch:

LOL!

Red Deer:

in the end, you HAVE to know the person to assess their skills, their claim (right or wrong) to a degree tells you little

MORRIGAN:

in other words, are you telling us not to judge a person by his/her degree?

Red Deer:

AYE!!!!

Nestor:

yes RD -- but then it is a difference between "getting" a degree and "earning" a degree -- and usually both the participant and the community understands the value of where the degree is being grant

PAniteowl:

You got it Chatty!!!

Nestor:

granted

Red Deer:

judge them by what you know interactively with them

MORRIGAN:

makes good sense to me to do that within all walks of life, not just this one.

Red Deer:

true Nestor, so long as you're part of the same community

MoonWillow:

PA, I see degrees as signs of progress, recognition of advancement... for those of us on the solitary path, how do we know "where we are", so to speak?

Nestor:

and then Chattie you are so right -- you must see that in their actions

Red Deer:

I think that here is a good example of a place where degrees carry little weight.

PAniteowl:

One thing I'd like to stress. Here on the Web, anyone can claim a degree. We've all seen what has happened here because of that {G}

MORRIGAN:

agreed RD

ViragoWitch:

excellent point, Owl.

Nestor:

true PA

PAniteowl:

All should wait, and watch, and determine for themselves

TargeDubh:

Very true Owl

PAniteowl:

if someone is truly a teacher, or is knowledgeable MoonWillow. there are many ways to see your advancement. Sometimes it is in the little things which strike a chord

Nestor:

and if we look at those who come often claiming to be an HPS/HP or "Lord this" or "Lady that" --their answers and insights give the true picture of the level of development

PAniteowl:

Yes Nestor.

Red Deer:

aye Nestor and I'd assert the same for those who make no claim to a degree or title

ViragoWitch:

excellent point, Nestor. and RD

PAniteowl:

We've all experienced teachers in schools who were terrible, and some who were so great, we've never forgotten them

Nestor:

that too RD -- that is where I find that the solitary sometimes does have a harder time of it

PAniteowl:

These are the "degrees" by which I judge a person, and their value to me and to the craft

I agree, Nes

BUT. I also think the Solitaries are "spared" the structure of limited learning {G} Sometimes, when we don't know we "shouldn't"... We achieve so much more {G}

MORRIGAN:

this is very true PA

PAniteowl:

OK, everyone... just a bit more then I'm done

melilot:

I resemble that remark owl {EG}

PAniteowl:

heheh Meli

Nestor:

One factor that I would say happens with the degree system, is that I too humanly am subjected to having my attitude effect in the beginning by their "level" or "degree" especially if I know their Trad or

Red Deer:

aye Owl. sometimes I wonder what - other than purely human conventions - a human teacher could offer me that the deer and the falcon and the oak have not

Nestor:

their teachers

PAniteowl:

there are some Trads who make their Degree requirements known to the general public. Not all levels are available, but some disclose, so that those entering the path are aware that they will be required to perform in certain ways. Anyone seeking to find those paths can access them through various Weblinks!!! And it is my understanding that COG is now recognizing degrees for Solitaries, and even offering home study. Many "churches" are advertising study courses to achieve degrees

Red Deer:

I think they'll let us *old* Solitaires take a test, PA

PAniteowl:

Hehehe RD

PAniteowl:

But not all degrees are recognized universally. It is still up to the individual to work, study, and live the craft so that by their acts you will know them

Nestor:

One of the greatest sources of misunderstanding an friction between Solitaires and those from Trads comes over how to understand just what an initiation or degree/elevation means

PAniteowl:

Yes Nestor, and I was hoping that this discussion would at least bring some awareness of the differences

Red Deer:

aye Nestor

ViragoWitch:

Can I add something? Some of the "churches" offering study courses and degree-training, are charging $500+

PAniteowl:

Hehehe... Yep, VW. and that's just the beginner's course {G}

Nestor:

save the $500 and invest it in books and some good chat time in here -- you will get more than your money's worth

melilot:

what do I get for $500 dollars that I haven't already got}

PAniteowl:

OK... I'm done now {G}

ViragoWitch:

I agree, Nestor.

PAniteowl:

The floor is open

TargeDubh:

I have had coveners snub me because I am solitary, they don't deem me worthy because I am not in a coven

ViragoWitch:

::applause for Owl::

MoonWillow:

This may sound stupid & impertinent, but what good is a degree, anyway?. ..Except to "lord" (or "lady") it over others?

Red Deer:

I'd assert that represents their own sense of insecurity, at best, Targe

MORRIGAN:

500 seems a bit steep for me

Nestor:

thanks Owl -great and balanced presentation

PAniteowl:

Targe. you are one of the most "worthy" people I know

TargeDubh:

{ Blushes

Red Deer:

some don't do independent study well, Moon, but can become quite advanced when the study structure is set FOR them

melilot:

Targe your real worthy when your wear that kilt {EG}

MORRIGAN:

Thank you for your time and effort Owl! Very good class!

ViragoWitch:

Targe well, you know what you can tell them! They're just jealous of you and your kilt.

Nestor:

well Targe -understand that when you come as a "solitary" it takes those of us who come from the "Trad" some extra time to know and understand you

Red Deer:

excellent discussion Owl - and comments Nestor

ViragoWitch:

Thanks, Owl!

PAniteowl:

MoonWillow... I would respect a degree bestowed on anyone who truly showed they had "learned" something {G}

MoonWillow:

Thank you, Paniteowl - wonderful class!

calluna:

thank you owl

Nestor:

it is not that the Solitaries are rejected but until we get to see what you have --it is difficult to understand where you are coming from

PAniteowl:

I hope I have caused an "awareness" {G} thanks all for coming {G}

Xori:

Thanks PA - excellent class

MoonWillow:

I see, PA & Red Deer....truly, I just wanted to know! Thanks.

Red Deer:

Nestor - from folk like you who act as though this be true, I accept you position.

Nestor:

(not that there are not some Solitaires that I would take as friends and Brothers and Sisters any day of some of the new so-called Trads)

Red Deer:

but I've also encountered plenty who assert that you're nothing if you're a Solitaire, and won't "waste" their time figuring our whether you have any real experience or not

TargeDubh:

But shouldn't they get to know a person before the put them down?

MoonWillow:

Red, that has been my experience, usually, sad to say....

MORRIGAN:

theoretically yes Targe, but it doesn't always work that way now does it?

Nestor:

on of the problems is that even within the Trads -- now there is an explosion of so-called Trads which seem more to be based on social/economic factors than solid development and research

Red Deer:

would seem reasonable to me, Targe. just like I prefer getting to know a covener before I put them down{vbeg}

ViragoWitch:

LOL Red!

MoonWillow:

lol

PAniteowl:

Oh, Nestor, you know we're becoming the "in" religion {g}

TargeDubh: