PAniteowl:

ahem ... tap, tap, tap ... everyone get comfy .. class is about to begin

Red Deer:

heloooo?

SpiritDove z:

hmm what class PA ??

Cloudburst:

Red Deer:

OK PA.... if I may first?

LadyGrnEyess:

feet up...real comfy

PAniteowl:

go for it RD

Red Deer:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

I be PA's ward

PAniteowl:

ok?? ...

ready???

Red Deer:

5) With that, I pass the besom to PA her ideas on "The Craft Should Come with a Warning Label"

Cloudburst:

<- can't log; storm's a-brewin' & might have to leave

PAniteowl:

ok ... now you may or may not have visited the BB's lately but this class is more of a thread weaving than a lecture ... Based on RD's class a few weeks ago, I asked for input, and I got it .. so here goes ...

A few weeks ago, Reddeer hosted Wicca 101 talking about our feelings regarding the Burning Times, and the resultant anger and anxiety. A posted message on the BB's titled "Anger, a tool", brought many comments and suggestions, and showed the varied perspectives. Melilot started the discussion by suggesting that we write "Pagan Dollars" on all our paper money.. how long would it take to recycle? Solstice and Bronwyn had a problem with that, but Bronwyn suggested the Unitarian Church CUUPs group, and their methods. Magazines, newsletters, brochures, and providing speakers for other groups in order to debunk some of the myths about us. Dana suggested donations be made in the name of the Pagan Community, and Cloud suggested adopting a highway! Warmuth, as a "closeted" witch .. felt no need to demonstrate anything, since she was not after converts. But community work is done by S. Florida Wiccans! Arcadia & Nymue both had an alternative suggestion for writing messages on Paper money .. how about .. "Blessed Be"??? Virago Witch suggested "Ribbon" campaigns and bumper stickers .. you know we all love those .. but she also had some things to say about those who harrass other chat rooms, proclaiming to be "Wiccans" ... this really hurts us. Reddeer suggested buying those bricks or tiles for community projects and dedicating them to the Lady and/or the Lord. Elenya suggested making up and donating emergency kits for those in shelters .. toothbrush, comb, soap,.. etc etc .. Windaly had a really great overview, and good suggestions which pretty much summed up the thread we wove.

So backdate to 4/27 on the BB's to read thru them all, but for right now .. anyone have any comments?

We have all been acclimated to secrecy because of the suppression of the Craft thru the centuries. We all suffer because of some who misuse the Craft. And we all suffer because those who are ignorant of what the craft truly is .. misuse their talents and by their actions, we are ostracized. We are a recognized, viable RELIGION .. it is time we thought of ways to socialize ourselves rather than constantly being on the defensive.

Red Deer:

aye!

PAniteowl:

Now, no one has the definitive answer for these problems, but we should at least be looking at ways to educate the public... Heck .. we need more education for those who are with us!!! There seems to be two opinions gererating from the BB results. Those who are in the closet, are still more hesitant to proclaim their status. Those of us who have been out ... have no problem with saying so in any situation. So ... what do you all think? Do we let the fear and anger of the Burning Times keep us silent?

Red Deer:

not me

LadyGrnEyess:

no

PAniteowl:

I know "Not YOU" RD

Red Deer:

nothing keeps me silent

PAniteowl:

then how do we encourage people to participate in community and stating their Pagan or Wiccan background?

Red Deer:

what I wonder is this... we have all these good ideas - is anyone following through with them yet?

Cloudburst:

I'm in a middle-of=the-road situation; locally I'm not as out and educational as I am when I'm out of town. Has to do with occupational security (education)

Cloudburst:

but I do take opportunities that arise to educate where I can

PAniteowl:

Yes Cloud ... and what has your experience been when you have let people know locally that you are of the Craft?

Well, RD ... some of us have been "following thru" for a long time

Cloudburst:

not negative. But that's individuals - going public is something I don't think this town is ready for

PAniteowl:

and I for one have really not had a negative reaction!

Cloudburst:

I mean really public - I was invited to participate in the local AIDS memorial a couple years ago as Wiccan clergy - chose to just be in it as a reader instead,

PAniteowl:

I know RD is very open as to his Craft .. anyone else?

Cloudburst:

and was very glad it was that way when I saw who showed up

WICCA101:

I use to be part of the first aid squad....The ones that my hubby has so nicely introduced me as the witch of the house only raise an eye brow...and I smile....

Red Deer:

<--- is "out" at work & with most friends... it's fun

PAniteowl:

was it very bad Cloud?

Cloudburst:

no, because I was just one of the readers. But participating collegially with other kinds of clergy is something I do when I can, just not here

Taliesyn:

Cloudburst is right; professionally I am a teacher and counselor, and I've seen the subtle persucution of non-Christians; and the outright rage against "witchcraft"...

PAniteowl:

well Talie .. how do you change that when we ourselves don't stand up and set the record straight?

Taliesyn:

...social tolerances only go so far; and while friends accept me, stangers and casual acquantiances would not be as generous

Cloudburst:

OTOH, have done several weddings and a downright memorable funeral with a Lutheran minister, no less. Just not right out in public here at home.

WICCA101:

Surprisingly enough I've gotten better responses from 20-30 yr olds....I've even met others studying...The worse seems to be dealing with family members

PAniteowl:

hmmm .. Yes Cloud .. I know what you mean ...

PAniteowl:

Well Wicca .. have they tried to understand or are they still buying the same ol stuff that has been preached about us?

Taliesyn:

we were forced to form an occult society due to these social pressures; and there are more of us out there than most non-pagans would believe... but we are a sever minority

WICCA101:

They follow the way of the Southern Baptist

Cloudburst:

I have a feeling I may be doing more for general understanding by helping that Lutheran fella understand us than I would be doing by generating headlines

PAniteowl:

... one step at a time, eh Cloud?

Cloudburst:

indeedy

Taliesyn:

lol.. I grew up in a Southern Baptist community; fear what is different, destroy what can't be changed, and then lie about it.

Red Deer:

where Tali?

Cloudburst:

Also I do think organizations can do more out-front public education than solitaries

PAniteowl:

I know I've reached a lot of people this year .. and it was indeed on purpose that I chose to be more visible and open about the craft

Taliesyn:

We have to take the high road and be above reproach and VERY careful of how we handle things

PAniteowl:

Yes Cloud

I agree Talie

WiseWitch:

Organizations are made up of individuals, and individuals,even if in a group, do more work solitary than group

Red Deer:

OTOH Cloud, I think that being solitaire means I don't have to "worry" about effects on my fellow coveners.

PAniteowl:

Wise is right on that point

Taliesyn:

Texas Red... near the KKK capital of the world ... no libreals here... just third generation draft dodgers

WICCA101:

They seem afraid and leave the subject alone...

Red Deer:

<--- piedmont NC, a lot of the same

PAniteowl:

then teach them, Wicca ... let them know what and who we are

Cloudburst:

Yep, RD, but there we're talking about one-on-one stuff; more effective PUBLIC education stuff seems to be available to groups.

WICCA101:

Don't laugh about the KKK....I've seen a Black man hung by the side of the road

Red Deer:

You'd be surprised how many of my coworkers have brought me newspaper articles (local) about the Craft... all have been positive!

PAniteowl:

not laughing about the KKK here ... still shivering!!

WICCA101:

I've tried to talk with them....they have eyes cannot see...have ears but do not hear.....

Taliesyn:

fear / anger / violance / and repression are all facets of the same stone... and they are self-perpetuating. We have to shatter the stone they have caste us in, but as gencutters, not vandals

Cloudburst:

WW, I wasn't talking about the mostly-solitary side of coven work; I agree with you on that. Sub was educating people about the Craft, and I think the larger scale of that is a group thing.

PAniteowl:

Very good analogy Talie!!

WICCA101:

No sweetheart...I came from the deep South

Red Deer:

not disagree Cloud... I just think the PR has to followed up with non-Pagan folk learning that this religion can be practiced by someone

Cloudburst:

BTW, nice to see you WW

Red Deer:

they already know and hopefully like and maybe respect

SpiritDove z:

the KKK have gone thru many generations of hatred to everyone, it is difficult to change there beliefs

WICCA101:

There is a lot that happens that goes unreported....that is when I was a child....I'm 44 now

WiseWitch:

But my point is that 'groups' are an artificial concept in this case. No one talks to a group, no one interviews a 'group' - they talk with/interview people.

WiseWitch:

Individuals, tho there may be a group of individuals.

PAniteowl:

Look around you everyone ... look at the number of Pagan websites .. look at the individuals sharing knowledge and info..

Red Deer:

i don't focus my energy on KKKers and the like because they're not folk likely to know me...

Taliesyn:

WICCA.. I was laughing at the concept of them accepting Wicca as a religion and not attacking it... it ain't gunna happen...not here

PAniteowl:

There are more of us out there than you ever thought!

Cloudburst:

Yes, and the interviews that get read and thought about the most are with individual X, spokesperson for group Y

Red Deer:

but on the larger number of people who are more middle of the road, and may have an open mind

Cloudburst:

What I was trying to say, obviously not well enough, is that the "group Y" designation does carry weight when doing press, etc.

WiseWitch:

Sure, titles like that get attention - but does anyone think that, say, +Sprong speaks for all Anglicans?

Red Deer:

no argument there Cloud

PAniteowl:

I was really surprised at my last Workshop .. there was only one negative "letter to the editor" .. and that person said the college itself was going to hell in a handbasket

WiseWitch:

And just what IS a handbasket?

Cloudburst:

Of course not, WW, but Rev. Sprong has a handier title for this sort of thing than if he was ULC.

PAniteowl:

I dunno .. I never had one

Some people feel more comfortable by joining CUUPS, and using the Unitarian Church as a safety net ... I personally, don't.

WiseWitch:

Handier, yes. But what happens when folks realize that behind the title is the fact that no one in HIS church listens to him?

WiseWitch:

I mean, look at The Isaac ( who I DO admit I like looking at [g] )

PAniteowl:

yes Wise???

WiseWitch:

He spent years speaking as "ArchDruid of ADF". But do WE listen to him? [g]

No, tho the press sometimes did....

PAniteowl:

oh, but WW .. there will always be a "token" ... and althought it's not a real coin .. it gets you thru the turnstile

Cloudburst:

Point: would the press have listened as carefully if he'd been "Isaac, speaking only for myself"?

PAniteowl:

CounterPoint: .. the press has no clue how many or who we are

Cloudburst:

I know I had to stand up for myself more with the family members at my last wedding than I would have if I'd had a trad ordination

WiseWitch:

Or take CAW and Green Egg. They get press quite well - but how many of us spend so much time talking polyamorous stuff and drugs?

PAniteowl:

Good Point WW

Cloudburst:

REAL good point

WiseWitch:

It's kind of like the bike dykes and flamboyant queens at Gay Pride parades - it's not the group affiliation that gets attention, but the spectacle

PAniteowl:

so, what's the consensus here? Is it up to the Solitaries to shake things up? Are covens, or organizations helping the cause?

Red Deer:

isn't the answer "Yes"?

Taliesyn:

occult pagan pratices do create a double edged sword; but people hear / believe what they want to, no matter what we or those whose claim to speak for us say.

Cloudburst:

Solitaries and coveners working alone do the bulk of the work of educating individuals

PAniteowl:

yes Cloud .. I think you're right .. and it's too bad

Cloudburst:

but I think umbrella orgs and large outfits have a definite place in doing big public education efforts

Cloudburst:

if they can keep it "clean" anyway

PAniteowl:

Taliesyn:

My personal cut on it is to just try an make it public that we're NOT satanist and demon worshippers and refuse to be lumped togethr with them...

PAniteowl:

Yes, Talie ... It would be nice if we didn't have to do the disclaimer all the time

siyotanka:

any one want to hear what an ordained christain minister has to say?

Cloudburst:

That's important, Tal. I have a friend who's also a religion prof, and writes letters to the editor every time such a lumping occurs, all without coming out of the broom closet

WICCA101:

I have a few friends that I've been working to educate more...two of them will be coming to a full moon ritual with me as guest...I've known them a long time in person so is not a problem.

Taliesyn:

true... I mean who besides me has contacted Prodigy to request they make a satanic/demonologist room so those interested in that will not keep coming into our room??

Cloudburst:

My friend the religion prof also being another case to the point that it's handy to have some kind of public hat if talking to media

PAniteowl:

WEll, we could all do a little bit more towards fixing the image

siyotanka:

oh well, as I respect true wiccans and just thought it might help to let you know some of us are out, I guess I'll have to leave you to it

PAniteowl:

We've batted around some ideas .. and if each of us acts on them, maybe others will just follow along.

Red Deer:

thank you siyo

PAniteowl:

Well, that's about the gist of the class topic tonite .. any other comments?

PAniteowl:

Oh .. I forgot one important item that was on the BB's

Taliesyn:

well, the good news is I've heard a rumor that the U.S. military now has a chapter on Wicca in its Champlaincy Guidbook.... that IS a step toward legitimacy

PAniteowl:

What do we do with people who delight in harrassing other Religious rooms?

WiseWitch:

It's not a rumor, Tal, the guidebook covers Pagan trads.

Red Deer:

it's actually been there quite a while Tali

Lord Draig:

The acknowledgement of the army has been in effect for 7 years now

FireHeart:

no rumor, Taliesyn. It's the truth according to a friend of mine in the military who is Wiccan

WICCA101:

Yes it does...I know that for a fact

PAniteowl:

Oh, Talie .. yes .. it's been there quite a while

WiseWitch:

We ask them to stop, PA, and then we exclude them.

PAniteowl:

what about those from our rooms who harrass the Xian rooms WW?

Cloudburst:

Problem is, excluding someone from here doesn't keep them from doing whatever elsewhere. Is there a reporting system in *P that covers despicable misbehavior in chat?

WiseWitch:

I do the same thing, PA. I was the one who tried to get a list of OUR jerks going on the BB. See the 'alert' button below, Cloud?

Red Deer:

seems to me that there are those here with positive relationships with some in the Christian rooms...

PAniteowl:

well, it seems we have not stressed the 3 fold rule enough!!

Cloudburst:

AHA! Only works if a host sees it, though, right?

FireHeart:

Cloud, I use the alert button

Cloudburst:

Hard to alert about something going on in another room...

WiseWitch:

Right, Cloud, as many of us have seen faked CHAT transcripts.

Red Deer:

perhaps they might suggest looking at our room list to see whether those who offend them are present before harassing us... perhaps the idea might spread

FireHeart:

that's true, Cloud

WiseWitch:

I get along great in Christian room.

Taliesyn:

well, i thought about going over and apologizing... but the ingrates there attacked me... so I won't go back ... let them suffer our idiots just as we suffer theirs

WiseWitch:

bbl

PAniteowl:

I've seen some complaints from people who were blocked from chat by P* ... how do you get to be blocked?

Mainely Hank:

where do you go to observe services?

do you have meetings

Mainely Hank:

so people can attend

PAniteowl:

Well folks ... is class over?

Cloudburst:

This is one, Hank

Scallygirl:

i hope not...

Mainely Hank:

ok

Scallygirl:

<--needs all the info she can get

Mainely Hank:

but not live meetings for someone interested?

Cloudburst:

Hank, depends on your area.

Mainely Hank:

i see

WICCA101:

LOL!!!! WW in a christian room???? I did that by accident once...was a strange experience..

PAniteowl:

please excuse me ... I'll brb ..

Mainely Hank:

Bangor Maine?

Scallygirl:

ummm...is Lobot in the right room

Cloudburst:

Some groups some places have public rituals and/or info nites; try and find out if there's a student org. at you local college

Mainely Hank:

ok

Red Deer:

or a UU chapter

Mainely Hank:

University?

WICCA101:

LOL!!! Now who's a liar?

Cloudburst:

Unitarian church

Red Deer:

Unitarian Universalist Congregation

FireHeart:

Hank, you might also try a local alternative bookstore. They usually have a list of classes

Scallygirl:

oh i respect him...i am just wondering if there was a little bit of a patronizing..."i will pray for you"..in there

PAniteowl:

back

Scallygirl:

pick pick pick...lol

PAniteowl:

Sorry all, will have to leave ... my neighbor just lost his battle with cancer ... please wish him safe passage to the Summerland

Red Deer:

done PA

PAniteowl:

MP & BB all

Red Deer:

and thanks for a great discussion

Cloudburst:

done PA