Red Deer:

It's time to start... so please bear with the formalities?

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

5) With that, I pass the besom to PAniteowl, who will facilitate our discussion of "The Ethics of Spellcasting"

PAniteowl:

Merry Meet all

This topic started a few weeks ago round the campfire. It generated some heated discussion, so here we go

The Rede admonishes to "Harm None", yet that is not a simple statement. There are many things to consider before doing any act for or to another.

We've all heard warnings as to the misuse of spellwork and the 3 fold law of return. Telling someone to "beware" isn't enough. One must understand the "why" of taking responsibility.

Now we all know that generally, when a person requests a love spell it not just because they want to find love and happiness, but because they are not getting response they hope for from someone else, and they want a bit of magick to "fix" the situation. Of course, this is an interference in someone else's life .. yes, it can be done, but should it be done?

Now, before we debate the ethics of that question, let's look at another perspective. Should we take it upon ourselves to do a healing spell for someone without their permission?

This too is "meddling" in someone else's life. If a friend is a strict fundie, and you do a healing spell on their behalf, would they thank you, or feel that you were "jinxing" them?

And if they felt that way, would their opinion detract or even warp your spellwork?

What we have here is the same act ...

no matter what the reason, we are interfering with anther's free will and choice.

WiseWitch:

When can we start interrupting with our never humble opinions, Owlie?

Red Deer:

<--- disagrees on the sameness Owlie

PAniteowl:

ok ... go ahead WW

Red Deer ...??? how do they differ??

let's get the ball rolling here

WiseWitch:

heh heh heh. Healing spells - I look at them as being more similar to emergency first aid. I'd not ask a car accident victim FIRST if they want healing, I'd just administer first aid!

Trollfrog:

[but sometimes pain be useful]

WiseWitch:

No one HAS TO ACCEPT HEALING. All we really do is give an energy boost to THEIR abilities to heal, we don't mandate acceptance.

PAniteowl:

what if their perception of your healing is detrimental to their mental health ???

Red Deer:

I don't see helping someone heal their body as being the same as controlling someone's will re: for whom they have emotion

WiseWitch:

I'd not mandate what form the healing takes, Owl.

PAniteowl:

ok, Wise ... then you would qualify the spell?

WiseWitch:

No, I'd NOT qualify it - I'd send GENERAL healing energy, not specific "mend this pain" or whatever.

Cloudburst:

<- had experience lately with someone refusing energy from a Pagan in their chat room (not here) - against their religion, and they really meant it

melilot:

i would use " mend this person's pain if that is their wish"

PAniteowl:

Yes, Cloud .. that's really what brought this subject up

MafiaMama3:

PA, why do you have to tell them if you know it would be detrimental to their mental health? couldn't u just do a healing and see what happens?

Red Deer:

"and Your will"

PAniteowl:

Same thing happened a while ago

Cloudburst:

IMO, would have been wrong to proceed, and the Pagan indeed did not do anything = good idea, also IMO of course

melilot:

some people like to be in pain

WiseWitch:

Sure, if a person asks to be in pain I'd not interfere. I'd hand 'em over to Meli instead.....[g]

PAniteowl:

Mafia ... then you are infringing upon their beliefs ... is this ethically correct?

MafiaMama3:

but healing is healing, PA, is how i feel, anyway

Yarrow:

i heard of someone who tried to heal their friend. this person was a Jehovah's Witness, and the "healing" took the form of bible-quoting. The friend could not be healed by that form of healing

is this not the same as wiccans trying to heal others with magic?

PAniteowl:

ahhh, But Mama .. so much has been done for someone else's "GOOD" .. even though they don't feel so good after someone else has decided to act

melilot:

if someone has let me know that they do not wish it under any circumstances i would follow their wishes

PAniteowl:

there are many actions people take which have good intentions, but are the recipients of the actions always gonna see it that way?

MafiaMama3:

in that i agree, meli, but maybe i am just different in my thinking, PA, to me a healing is a healing, no matter what/whose god/goddess it comes from

melilot:

i personally would not do to someone else that which i would not want done to me

Cloudburst:

right on, meli

WiseWitch:

Right, Meli - if there is a specific request to stay OUT of it I would. But if I see a kid hit by a car in the street, I'm gonna do first aid, and I'm gonna do a spell, not dither and ask if the unconscious kid wants it.

melilot:

it all depends on the circumstances

PAniteowl:

I agree, Wise .. I would probably do the same ... but I have to look at other circumstances also

When is it better to "butt out" rather than act?

Emer:

I always tell the person everything I

WiseWitch:

<---- mostly butts out, actually.

Emer:

It is their life, not your own

PAniteowl:

Yes Emer ...

Red Deer:

well, according to the Rede - buttting out is NOT ok if someone comes to harm because you did nothing

PAniteowl:

I know you do WW

Cloudburst:

<= can't remember the last time I did anything on anyone who didn't request it

Emer:

:::Chuckle::: that is the best route WW

PAniteowl:

Red Deer ... if it were one of us .. I would have no qualms .. but with those I don't know .. well, I may hesitate before acting

Emer:

But to me that is silly RD. You are staying out of a situation at the request of the person.

melilot:

if it involves something other than healing i tend not to become involved unless asked and then only if i feel it is something i should be involved with must know all facts first

WiseWitch:

Ah, now we have to define 'harm, Red Deerie!

PAniteowl:

hehehe ... go for it WW

WiseWitch:

but Meli, you can never know ALL the facts

Heck, Owl, I didn't volunteer to define it! [g]

Red Deer:

Oh, I'll butt out if asked... I was thinking of the no request to butt out cases

WiseWitch:

But I will say that HARM does not equal HURT.

Warmuth:

What about the Karmic part, Red Deer....what if it is the person's Karma, this illness

melilot:

lets see harm i do nothing someone breaks leg meets nurse in hospital falls in love gets married gets divorced nurse starts stalking when does my responsibility end?

PAniteowl:

OK Wise .. but should you do spellwork without knowing as much as you can about a situation?

WiseWitch:

Just because a person will be in pain if you do nothing doesn't make it 'harm'

Cloudburst:

Warmuth, IMO that's among the "all the facts" we can't know

Arcadia:

OK PA, how far does it go though? if a friend is sick, and you petition for healing, is that the same as holding a ritual specifically for healing?

Red Deer:

does someone else's Karma release me from the obligation to offer aid if I am able?

moonListener:

sounds like same crisis an EMT faces every day.

PAniteowl:

What about weather witches ... do we bring rain to a drought area at anothers flood peril?

Ohhh .. good question Red Deer ...

melilot:

but does the flood really harm pa

Warmuth:

Offering aid is one thing...doing a spell without their consent is something else

Emer:

Yes it does mel.

WiseWitch:

Owl, I get a prayer request list in e-mail regularly. I never know if the folks on the list have asked for prayer or if someone has decided they 'need' prayer. Causes interesting thoughts!

PAniteowl:

yes WW ... it does

melilot:

who does it harm emer the earth may need it while the people don't

Cloudburst:

So's yours, Owl - remember a festival that tried *REAL* hard to avert a rainstorm without knowing facts including a chemical spill down the road

PAniteowl:

Yep Warmth .. I agree

hehehe ... yep Cloud I remember

Red Deer:

that raises parallel questions for me, Cloud... would never try to alter the weather simply for my (and others) convenience

Emer:

Well, good point mel. I just think that bringing weather may cause more harm that good

PAniteowl:

ok .. folks ... these are the ethics of spellwork .. and we have a wide variety of experience to draw from here

WiseWitch:

With the prayer list, I tend to do a lot of "May the God/dess/es that call this person guide them thru this, as best as the person lets them' type thing.

Cloudburst:

We didn't know 'til we got home and read the papers how right it was that we failed miserably, Red Deery

PAniteowl:

oh ... Cloud .. just opened another door

melilot:

now the question is will our actions work if the would alter the greater good?

PAniteowl:

Yep Meli ... you saw the open door too

melilot:

hehehee i likes open doors

Cloudburst:

IMO *and IM experience) that would be negatory, meli

PAniteowl:

Do we really effect the God/ess choice???

MafiaMama3:

ok, PA, did we have a right to offer a petition for my friend's husband during ritual that nite even tho i didn't tell anyone what kind of power was being used?

PAniteowl:

Or should all our spellwork include the qualifying statement "if it is in the best interest of all"????

melilot:

i think if it be your will works for me pa

Red Deer:

my belief is that, if my will is strong enough, I CAN cause detriment to the greater good meli

WiseWitch:

But - might it not be in the best interest of the Earth to have all humans die? [g]

I agree, Red Deerie.

Red Deer:

Lady & Lord don't often interfere with our free will

PAniteowl:

Mama ... the petition did include that statement

melilot:

but would you Red Deery

Warmuth:

Karma is a very strange thing...if you do something to delay that Karmic wheel...you cause more harm because the Karma is increased

moonListener:

I think all good spells should owl.

MafiaMama3:

ok, what statement, i was so intrigued by what was going on that i don't remember, PA

Red Deer:

in the case of it being someone's Karma to suffer a disease Warmuth... perhaps it is MY Karma to try and help them without success!

Cloudburst:

WW, I'm remembering an old CAW formula here:

PAniteowl:

ok ... no matter what spell, can we agree that it is not our will that is being exerted, but that we are trying to petition the God/ess for the best possible results?

WiseWitch:

Right, Cloud. Always made ME go Hmmmmm

MafiaMama3:

i agree, PA

Emer:

Yes Owl

FireHeart:

I agree Owl

WiseWitch:

Nope, Owl, I won't buy that.

PAniteowl:

ok .. WW ... you have the floor .. explain please??

strangewings:

I don't agree

Warmuth:

Perhaps Red Deer...but what do we know......Perhaps it would be best to simply ask for balance and not cure

Arcadia:

PA, if you use the statement "for the good of all", and the spell fails, aren't some tempted to blame the God/ess for the failure, instead of accepting responsibility themselves?

moonListener:

I think our will is "exerted"

melilot:

i really don't feel i'm wise enough nor smart enough to make the kind of choices without their help when it comes to altering the planet

Red Deer:

can't agree Owl... often I'm exerting MY will

Cloudburst:

Not in my trad, Owl. Sorry

PAniteowl:

hmmmm ... how do you mean, Arc??? give me an example??

WiseWitch:

Owl, some spells work with the God/dess/es. But most magic is our "own" magic, our own "will" being used. At least in my view.

Warmuth:

I agree

PAniteowl:

oh .. you mean "6 ft Celt" stuff???

Warmuth:

We are imposing our will to make change

Red Deer:

aye Warmuth

WiseWitch:

yes, owl, among other things! [g]

Cloudburst:

Me too, meli - that

Warmuth:

We had better be damn sure we are doing the correct change

PAniteowl:

yes Warmuth ... we better be

Cloudburst:

agree, WW.

Otto:

aren't we just refocusing the God/dess energy anyway

Red Deer:

are each of you this careful about every decision of MUNDANE life?

yes and no otto, IMO

WiseWitch:

What's mundane life?

Arcadia:

ok, if a Witch casts a spell to help end the illness of a friend, and the passing of that friend turns out to be not so pleasant after all, could the spell caster not say it was the "Karma" of the person

Red Deer:

you know... mowing the grass...

Arcadia:

the spell had no chance of working anyway

melilot:

i don't usually try to change the weather Red Deery i usually try to change my mood

Warmuth:

I don't think so...all the magick there is in ourselves....the Goddess simply watches as it goes on

PAniteowl:

Hmmm ... I dunno Red Deer ... I don't usually use spellwork in that instance

FireHeart:

Red Deerie, I try to consider the consequences of my actions, but no, not everything

MafiaMama3:

why arc? maybe that spell just wasn't gonna work anyway

Cloudburst:

Actually, RD, I almost am

Warmuth:

to give Her responsibility is to shirk your responsibilities.....a cop out

PAniteowl:

Ok .. Is there a difference between using our own energies, and actually doing SPELLWORK???

Red Deer:

I do PA... I try to move all my little bros & sis's outa the lawn mowers way

PAniteowl:

Oh .. like the parking space spells , Red Deer??

WiseWitch:

Wish Troll was here to answer that one, Owl - he and I discussed that last night!

FireHeart:

Owl, I think there is a difference between doing spellwork and doing rituals where you ask the intervention of the God/dess

Arcadia:

I agree Warmuth, but I have seen many such cop outs, so where does our responsibilities lie? do we forge ahead anyway?

Warmuth:

Agree

FireHeart:

I see spells has using my own energy

PAniteowl:

Yes Fire .. I think there are differences

Red Deer:

agree with Fyre... spells are ours...

Warmuth:

We forge ahead if we ACCEPT OUR RESPONSIBILITIES...therefore it is to our interest to be SELECTIVE in what we do

PAniteowl:

Yes, Warmuth ... and we're right back to Ethical Spellwork

FireHeart:

agreed, Warmuth. I often do rituals and much less do spellwork

melilot:

ok now if in harm none does the intent or the events make a difference

PAniteowl:

yep Fire, me too

WiseWitch:

events, Meli

Warmuth:

We should all use our own ETHICS.....we will all pay for our ETHICS in the end anyway

PAniteowl:

I think events, Mel

melilot:

i tend to view it as intent

Cloudburst:

harm=events USUALLY, meli

WiseWitch:

But folks tend to lie to themselves on their 'intent', meli. Events are less....open to interpretation.

FireHeart:

inent, meli to a greater degree than events, I think

PAniteowl:

Well Mel, I know I've done things which I felt were right, but had a hard time extracting the hoof from my mouth or other parts of my anatomy on occasion

Cloudburst:

however, IMHO intent to harm is its own karmic problem

Red Deer:

disagree WW - fold lie to themselves just as well about externals as about internals

PAniteowl:

Yes Cloud .. I agree

melilot:

if my intent is to help a drought area and it results in flood somewhere else yet the Red Deeri intended did occur

WiseWitch:

I think it's a tad harder to lie about external, RD. That's why you don't just itemize what you DO in your BOS, but you itemize the RESULTS. Can't fudge as much on results!

PAniteowl:

Yes, Mel ... but would you have done the drought spell without considering the possibility of flood elsewhere?

Red Deer:

this is like the process vs outcome stuff in medicine - sheesh!

Warmuth:

Then it is your responsibility to have enough expertise in your spell to avoid the flood...and if you dont have it, don't do it!!

melilot:

i wouldn't pa but then i usually try to cover all possibilities BEFORE i do a spell it's part of my ethics

Arcadia:

or does the ends justify the means?

PAniteowl:

Yes, Mel I know ...

melilot:

hehehePA

FireHeart:

Arc, not always

PAniteowl:

I don't think so, Arc .. not always

Arcadia:

agreed Fire

Cloudburst:

Possible, Arc, in very limited circumstances, but I wouldn't bet my karma on it

Yarrow:

What occurs can be an evil act with no blame or intent to harm. When someone has harmful intent the events that transpire can end up as well...no control

Warmuth:

agreed

melilot:

so isn't the ethics of spellwork really to research all possible results before hand

PAniteowl:

... Gold stars for Meli

Warmuth:

and your own limits, Mel

melilot:

put it on my bum PA so the doc can see it

FireHeart:

agreed meli as well as your own abilities

PAniteowl:

hehehe

Arcadia:

and not only to research, but to be VERY specific, like Lady and Zooky

PAniteowl:

LOL

melilot:

LOL arc

Warmuth:

agreed

Cloudburst:

WiseWitch:

snicker

melilot:

she did get EVERYTHING she asked for

PAniteowl:

I think the Ethics of Spellwork is to know as much as you can, and then think twice before actually weaving ...

Warmuth:

now I am gonna bring up a big bugaboo.....what about MONEY SPELLS

Red Deer:

sounds the same as everyday life to me PA

FireHeart:

and to be sure you are ready and willing to accept the consequences, PA

PAniteowl:

Spellwork should not be taken lightly, and yes, Red Deer ... it really is

Cloudburst:

carpenter's equivalent=measure twice/cut once

PAniteowl:

Right Fire

melilot:

and i feel when it involves anothers life one should use a lot of caution we don't know what each is to experience

PAniteowl:

Yep!! Cloud

moonListener:

I think that putting "for the good of all, an the harm of none" in your spells helps cover stuff we cant foresee... like floods and locusts and stuff. imo

Arcadia:

what's wrong with Money spells Warmuth?

Kildeer:

Did I miss the impact of "love spells"?

Warmuth:

Moon....do you think that is really strong enough...I think not

melilot:

well warm word the carefully money comes from many places the death of a loved one being a possible

PAniteowl:

Well Moon ... I did like Arc's question about whether that just absolves us of responsibility for casting the spell in the first place?

moonListener:

I think we still responsible... but perhaps with less "damage" done

FireHeart:

Owl, I don't feel it absolves us of the responsibility of doing the spell

PAniteowl:

Arc's point is well made ... it still falls to us to assume responsibility for the energies we create

melilot:

i go by the old adage "be careful what you ask for you just might get it"

Warmuth:

We must take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for what we do...afterall spellcraft is a voluntary act

moonListener:

yup

WiseWitch:

right, Meli

FireHeart:

agreed Warmuth

Elenya:

Aye, Warmuth

Kildeer:

agreed Meli

PAniteowl:

... Gee, we're an "ethical" bunch

Elenya:

and meli

Red Deer:

aye Warmuth

Elenya:

payback's hell, PA

WiseWitch:

I've not done money spells. I've done spells to help folks get the right job, to fill their need to support themselves while having a job that is not a killer.

Cloudburst:

I think most of us are, Owl - maybe that's why we like each other so much

melilot:

are we "ethical" or just real careful how much and what kind of threefold we want

PAniteowl:

You got it El!!!

PAniteowl:

hehehe .. that too Meli

PAniteowl:

Yep Cloud

WiseWitch:

<----- doesn't believe in 3-fold law

Arcadia:

I'm with Mel, sometimes the 3fold just ain't worth it

melilot:

you don't have to ww

Red Deer:

is not all ethics primarily driven by the superego... therefore we are ethical BECAUSE of three-fold?

Cloudburst:

Me neither, WW - it's usually more

PAniteowl:

sheesh WW

WiseWitch:

LOL Meli

moonListener:

<--- on a sliding scale... depending how bad I mess up.

Warmuth:

I believe in 3 fold law...but have problem with the usual definition of "Harm none

Yarrow:

practice is self observation

Otto:

is it wrong or right to perform a healing on the land?

WiseWitch:

Sidebar - if we follow the adage "as above, so below" - on THIS plain it's "for every action theres an EQUAL and opposite reaction" not a 3-fold one. who outlawed the laws of nature on this one?

Arcadia:

well Red Deerie, not I, I am prepared to take that which I dish out

Warmuth:

I feel if you take full responsibility of your action. Harm none is not necessary

PAniteowl:

Otto ... as Wiccans we're committed to healing the Earth .. so if we take steps, we also take responsibility

Emer:

Too many don

Red Deer:

but doesn't what you're prepared to take have an influence on what you dish out Arc?

Cloudburst:

Tough question, Otto - did a big one on MY land, way back when, but don't know if I'd try the planet - or even the county!

Arcadia:

well, when you put it that way

Cloudburst:

OTOH, we work mundanely to heal the planet constantly, I hope

Otto:

small state park cloud i'm not ready for the whole planet

PAniteowl:

Otto:

or at least small area's of the park

PAniteowl:

yes we do Cloud ... but even our Mundane works have a "flavor" to them, no???

Warmuth:

Taking FULL RESPONSIBILITY would be the FIRST LAW....I feel there are too many "twinkywits as there is

PAniteowl:

Twinkywits???? ROFL ...

Elenya:

LOL, Warmuth, I know what you mean

Cloudburst:

I'd be wary - what if healing the land meant a sudden disappearance of all the concrete?

Red Deer:

KEWL cloud!!

Arcadia:

lol cloud

Red Deer:

I'd love it

PAniteowl:

Oh my .. just imagine that, Cloud

Samhain:

that would be nice.......

FireHeart:

Warm, for a lot of people, that would put an end to their spellwork

WiseWitch:

Which, Warmuth, also means that if a spell fails we can't say "oh, it just went against the Will of the Gods/Karma/whatever"

melilot:

LOL

PAniteowl:

yep WW

Warmuth:

"TWINKYWITS" is short for Twinky Witches....you know .the ones who think it is all sugar, spice and fairey dust...

WiseWitch:

heh heh heh

Red Deer:

aye... if the Gods don't allow us to harm ourselves and others, they don't allow us free will - which would make this whole conversation pointless

Cloudburst:

INDEED, but I hope not when any of US are on the turnpike

PAniteowl:

ROFLMAO

melilot:

you mean it's not warm? i'm so confused now

Red Deer:

rofl cloud

WiseWitch:

oh oh, a confused Meli....danger, danger, danger!

Red Deer:

and Warmuth

Arcadia:

and in taking responsibility for one's spell work, you therefore must take back any repercussion if you have screwed up and gone against "karma"

melilot:

LOL cloud don't think i want to do that MAJOR a working more of a respect and honor and show of love

Cloudburst:

I know some, Warmuth

PAniteowl:

OK folks ... this is gonna be quite a full log ... there has been little "lag" time in this discussion ...Thanks for all the participation .. and I hope I've made you all think

MafiaMama3:

as always, PA

Red Deer:

Thank YOU for facilitating a GREAT on PA

FireHeart:

indeed you have, PA

moonListener:

thanks owl. {S}

WiseWitch:

Thinking makes me hungry.

melilot:

tanks owllly

MafiaMama3:

LOL, WW

WiseWitch:

Where's the leftover chinese food?

MafiaMama3:

thnx, PA

Arcadia:

great job and thought provoking as last time PA

Cloudburst:

postin' SLOW tonight, Red Deery - makes it hard to get in one's punchlines

Red Deer:

thank you all for a great discussion.

Cloudburst:

YAY OWLIE!!!!

PAniteowl:

FireHeart:

Thanks Owl for a great discussion