Pixelite:

Is the schedule on Wicca 101 on the BB correct? We don't have another class after this one till end of Sept?

RED DEER:

Still working on that...

Pixelite:

Kewl... I would miss my Sunday morning stop by here!

RED DEER:

Anona can't make it today...

RED DEER:

I though we might discuss the sacred vs the secular unless y'all are interested in something else...

Pixelite:

Hmmm.... the turn out so far seems light...but, most people are usually late for these I find...

Freinsch:

Sounds like a plan.

Otterjoy:

class about?

RED DEER:

(thought you'd been here B4)

RED DEER:

Well, we were to do Sacred Feasts, but Anona can't make it...thought we might discuss the sacred vs the secular

Otterjoy:

yes popped in once...unbeknownst that it was class

RED DEER:

I think turnouts have been rather light the past month...possibly because it's summer. Same thing has been happening in the FMR.

Pixelite:

I love to read the FMRs, they are always so pretty...

RED DEER:

Come & join us sometime, Pixe...they are for every one who comes with an open heart.

Freinsch:

Why don't we go ahead and start. No new folks have come in for a few minutes.

RED DEER:

Sure...is my topic selection OK with y'all?

Freinsch:

Fine with me.

Pixelite:

RD, I'm so new to all this, I'm not sure I'm qualified, or ready enough for them .

Pixelite:

For FMR's

RED DEER:

Oh...you don't need to be. If you've been reading them, you have the idea...plus, check out the FMR FAQs on the BB.

Pixelite:

I've been reading the FAQs and have read the last 3 months of FMRs...maybe soon I'll at least petition...

RED DEER:

I'd like to know what you think are the differences between "sacred" and "secular". Perhaps we should start with what people perceive as the definitions of these terms...

Freinsch:

A sacred place is a place that is set aside. It has special meaning and purpose.

RED DEER:

as contrasted with??? (BTW, when I start giving you my ideas about this, please remember that all is IMHO...learned others will sometimes agree and sometimes NOT)

Freinsch:

Places that are not. It doesn't mean that those other places cannot be sacred. Just that they have not been made so.

RED DEER:

I'd like to cast a little wider than places... things, people, teachings...you name it.

Freinsch:

Or are not regarded as such.

RED DEER:

So, is the idea that "sacred" refers to something more (religiously) special than other things?

Pixelite:

Sacred = reserved for special purpose for religious reason... Secular = things not set aside, or made special...not regarded as reserved for religious reasons...

RED DEER:

Excellent, Pixe

Pixelite:

(blushes)

RED DEER:

What you have stated is the common definition of the two. Most organized religions differentiate between the sacred and the secular - or even the sacred and the profane.

Freinsch:

It doesn't necessarily have to be "religious".

RED DEER:

But how do these concepts fit into Paganism?

RED DEER:

How so, Freinsch?

Pixelite:

But, different people consider different things as "sacred", and have different criteria on what makes it that way.

RED DEER:

Can we agree that sacred = something special, perhaps consecrated or even holy in and of its own right?

Pixelite:

sounds good

Freinsch:

Ref: what Pix just said. (G) I think we can set aside a special place that has meaning for us. Like a first place you meet someone important in your life etc.

Freinsch:

Yes

RED DEER:

consecrated or holy in its own right = every day life = mundane?

Pixelite:

agreed

Freinsch:

Yes

RED DEER:

And profane = something against holy, or sinful (like the Christian view of sex for anything other than procreation)

RED DEER:

So again, I ask...How do the concepts of sacred and secular fit into Paganism?

EroticWitch:

so its kind of unusual

RED DEER:

Perhaps if people state things they believe to be one or the other?

Freinsch:

<<---thinking

Pixelite:

Something sacred would be your tools, and any place you consecrate for a use. But the consecrated place could go back to being secular after it's use is done, but tools would stay

Eroticwitch:

i'm new at this so bare with me if i ask stupid q. i have been reading up on Wicca the past few years.

Pixelite:

sacred till you stopped using them....

RED DEER:

Interesting, Pixe

EroticWitch:

hello

RED DEER:

WW, We are discussing the Sacred vs the Secular...

WiseWitch:

They are opposed to one another?????

RED DEER:

I'm trying to learn how folks view/use these terms That's what I want to find out from folks, WW. Have asked people to state what they view as sacred and as secular.

WiseWitch:

For me, the sacred is whatever I'm AWARE is filled with the God/dess/es, while the secular is what I'm UNAWARE about.

Freinsch:

Places we go to do rituals, pray, graveyards, my parents' home to me is also a sacred place.

Pixelite:

And some of us are figuring out our views as we go, cause we hadn't really thought about it (bg)

EroticWitch:

sacred is personal vs secular following anther's theories of how it should be

RED DEER:

OK, let me generate discussion with a broad statement. For me, there is NO secular.

EroticWitch:

the desert could be considered sacred

RED DEER:

As all of emanation (creation = nature) is divine, all is sacred and there can be no secular

EroticWitch:

good statement

RED DEER:

Forgive me for going to extremes to illustrate the point, but even the acts of normal bodily function are sacred.

WiseWitch:

But in some of creation, it is easier to see the divinity within it....and thus the perception of a division between sacred and secular by some.

RED DEER:

We recognize this in sexuality, and in feasting... but the same is true of elimination...

WiseWitch:

RD, I just hauled horse manure for my garden yesterday - and my compost heap is VERY sacred to me!

EroticWitch:

lol

RED DEER:

I feel that Paganism called me because of the fact that EVERY act of life is a sacred act!

RED DEER:

LOL WW

RED DEER:

and I AGREE!

Pixelite:

So RD, what do you consider secular?

RED DEER:

NOTHING!

RED DEER:

The problem I have with most religions - like Christianity - is the "When & Where you are with divinity, vs the When & Where you are NOT." Life is sacred...therefore every act of living is also...

WiseWitch:

Aye, RD - the 'take of your shoes, for THIS spot is sacred' as if the rest of the world is NOT God/dess stuff!

RED DEER:

Awakening in the morning

RED DEER:

preparing meals for my children

RED DEER:

going to work

WiseWitch:

First cup of coffee is VERY sacred - and easy to KNOW it's sacred, too.

RED DEER:

working with my patients

RED DEER:

relaxing

RED DEER:

studying

EroticWitch:

visiting the dead your grandparents

RED DEER:

playing

RED DEER:

making love with Elenya

Freinsch:

The way I look at it, everything is divine, but there are those special places, people and things that I feel more so. It is this that I call sacred.

RED DEER:

petting our dogs and cats

EroticWitch:

listening to your love one yell at you

RED DEER:

I guess I believe that some things I perceive as more and some less sacred...but that is my act of perception!

WiseWitch:

Exactly, RD.

RED DEER:

Yes, Erotic...going lovingly through the live the Goddess has given me EVEN WITH its trials and tribulations!

RED DEER:

Let me be a little more revolutionary...

EroticWitch:

i think if it has meaning to your life and what is surrounding you then it would be considered sacred

RED DEER:

I have read in some well respected sources that a sacred altar should not be profaned with everyday objects...

RED DEER:

I wholeheartedly DISAGREE...

EroticWitch:

i have read the same things

RED DEER:

How can I more connect my every day life with the sacred, than to use my altar BOTH for sacred items, and for mundane ones?

EroticWitch:

define everyday objects. if it has meaning to you then it is not an everyday object.

WiseWitch:

That's one of the joys of using one's kitchen table as an altar - you really bring that point home.

RED DEER:

Therefore, as our altar is in our foyer, it is also the place where I keep my every-day jewelry, my keys, my wallet, etc.

RED DEER:

True, WW...as a matter of fact, we have several altars in our home...door altar, hearth altar, kitchen altar, BEDROOM altar!

EroticWitch:

if it has been blessed by you and the goddess it then becomes sacred

RED DEER:

As a matter of fact, the concept of altar seems somewhat odd, except when I remind myself that this is a place which my PERCEPTION defines as more sacred than others!

EroticWitch:

bedroom alter good one, i'll have to remember that when it is time for my blessings

WiseWitch:

The point is, though, Erotic, that ALL is blessed by the Goddess, independent of OUR actions.

RED DEER:

TRUE WW

Freinsch:

So then, what to you, if anything, is profane?

RED DEER:

For me, the Pagan Path is one of SEEKING the SACRED in ALL THINGS

truthunter:

hi WW...haven't been to the office yet for author information

RED DEER:

Ah...good question, Freinsch

WiseWitch:

Okay, hunter.

RED DEER:

How about anything I do that interferes with the free will of others

truthunter:

which goddess WW?

EroticWitch:

but do we not ascertain certain expectations when we ask for her blessings.

WiseWitch:

How about profanity being in NOT seeing the sacred in things?

RED DEER:

For me, THINGS can not be profane...only the actions of individuals

WiseWitch:

Any of 'em, Hunter. I'm assuming a Wiccan viewpoint for this conversation, though, not a 'true' polytheistic one....

RED DEER:

All is sacred...profanity is refusing to recognize this, or is any act of a sentient being that purposefully brings harm to another.

truthunter:

you said the Goddess is there many or is it the as the main one?

RED DEER:

WW - how would you respond differently in a true polytheistic viewpoint?

WiseWitch:

In the Wiccan view, there is but one Goddess, who takes innumerable forms.

truthunter:

what is this goddess name

EroticWitch:

and their is a god-male

WiseWitch:

No, Red Deer, but I'd have phrased "blessed by the Goddess" as "Blessed by any of the God/dess/es" which takes longer to type...

Pixelite:

I like the all gods are one god, all goddesses one goddess approach..... different names, different aspects

RED DEER:

Ah, I misunderstood...thought you were referring to sacred vs secular...not God/dess/es definition

WiseWitch:

That will vary by tradition, Hunter. Mostly She is seen as being beyond any one name.

truthunter:

what tradition has one as the head Goddess that you have read

EroticWitch:

the goddess name can be any name from that you choose. whether from pagan times or nature (sun, moon, wind,,,,,,)

truthunter:

says who Rotic?

WiseWitch:

ALL of Wicca has that, some trads may call her Diana, some Isis, etc.

WiseWitch:

Usually

EroticWitch:

that is from the interpretations that i've read as from several sources

RED DEER:

For me, the Goddess IS...even the act of naming Her is a linear, divisive act that is brought about by the nature of our own consciousness and perception

WiseWitch:

Usually Wiccans just call her by one of Her titles, like The Great Mother or The Threefold Goddess.

truthunter:

but where is this found in traditions of old record

RED DEER:

We seek to categorize, divide and simplify so that we more easily understand...and hence enters again the sacred and the secular

RED DEER:

but divinity IS, and is ALL

EroticWitch:

the naming of the goddess is for your benefit of being able to focus at the task at hand.

truthunter:

Isis And Diana were not the original first goddess

RED DEER:

that is why it is so difficult to perceive in usual (= normal) states of consciousness

EroticWitch:

no, there were numerous during pagan times

Pixelite:

They are just names truth, a way to focus cause it is too big otherwise for most people...

RED DEER:

I think that the only first name - in whatever language it arose - is MOTHER

truthunter:

in pagan times What is recorded as the name of the First Goddess that created all others

WiseWitch:

Hunter, Wicca is a relatively NEW religion, and not strictly polytheistic as were most of the older Pagan religions.

RED DEER:

but even that is categorical, and excludes FATHER

truthunter:

new?.....

WiseWitch:

Yes, Hunter, while Wicca's ROOTS are old, it is a very new flowering.

EroticWitch:

Celtic times and farther beyond

RED DEER:

yes, Truth...it is a reconstruction, undertaken earlier in this century...many would say it is a construction, rather than a re-construction

Freinsch:

Think of it as a plant that has between dormant, but not dead.

truthunter:

excuse this not meant as harm.....but that would make it pseudo religion if not rooted in antiquity or truth of original gods/goddess

EroticWitch:

you can develop your beliefs within your home (singular) or in a group (coven)

WiseWitch:

hunter, all religions started SOMETIME. Look at, say, Christianity, only 2000 years old!

RED DEER:

Truth, whatever you name the Mother, she is and always has been HerSELF!

truthunter:

but dormant...when back to like still follows the path of way. does not have new life to become anything

RED DEER:

She is SHE, the names are ALL ours

Pixelite:

and it is ROOTED in older beliefs, just isn't perhaps brought down linearly

WiseWitch:

Hunter, we've been discussing sacred and secular - how do you see those two things?

EroticWitch:

Wicca was or pagan beliefs were around before Christianity took root.

truthunter:

sure. that's not the point

RED DEER:

Perhaps before we were 'civilized' we were one with divinity...as I believe most other species to be now

truthunter:

there just is no where in antiquity that i can find any great creator goddess recorded

truthunter:

that started it all

RED DEER:

However, as we began to think, to categorize and divide, we DIVIDED the sacred from everything else...that is our MISTAKE in religion.

Patrickk:

Do you believe in afterlife?

WiseWitch:

Tiamet doesn't count for you, Hunter?

WiseWitch:

Sure, pat - Avalon/Summerland and then reincarnation.

truthunter:

where or what book/author translates this?

RED DEER:

No matter how far back you go, there must be a time when a name first arose from humans for the Goddess...does that mean She did not exist before that time?

WiseWitch:

Look for Sumerian info, Hunter. Michael Poe, in the Archeology BB, should be able to refer you to translations.

EroticWitch:

scott cunningham

Patrickk:

What about forgiveness of sins?

RED DEER:

Or that the first name given Her by humans is the TRUE name?

WiseWitch:

We don't have 'sins', Pat.

truthunter:

yes that means

RED DEER:

Or, is Her name ineffable?

Patrickk:

By what means will you be judged in the afterlife?

WiseWitch:

uh, Erotic, Hunter's looking for primary sources on PaleoPagan beliefs.

RED DEER:

We are not judged, Pat

WiseWitch:

I didn't say we got judged in the afterlife.

RED DEER:

We determine our own actions, and are personally responsible for them

Patrickk:

What benefit you doing good or bad?

Pixelite:

and each turn of the wheel has a lesson to be learned...

EroticWitch:

give me a minute to gather some sources WW

truthunter:

Tiamet.............what culture is that from?

RED DEER:

Any books by Maritja Gimbutas!

RED DEER:

Sumerian, I think

WiseWitch:

We're king of Rousseau-influenced on that, Pat. We are all affected by what happens by ALL in our society.

RED DEER:

Colin Renfrew

EroticWitch:

you never wish harm on a person because it may come back three or four fold

WiseWitch:

And we have lessons to learn or not learn that lead to spiritual growth (or stagnation)

Patrickk:

What does Wiccan mean?

Freinsch:

Pat, anything you do comes back to you threefold. Bad actions are returned with bad. Good with good.

truthunter:

thanks red

RED DEER:

The benefit is in the fact that what you give returns, Pat

EroticWitch:

truth refer to Greek and Celtic mythology

WiseWitch:

Wicca comes from the Old English word "Wic" which means (depending on what source you read) either "To bend or shape" or "Wise Ones".

truthunter:

i have and Greek and Celtic has none

WiseWitch:

Celtic has NO Creation stories, in fact.

truthunter:

nor does the roman or bardic

kb119:

What is a Wiccan ?

RED DEER:

WW - has none, or none that we know of?

EroticWitch:

you seek to make harmony with everything you come in contact with. not harm or destroy

WiseWitch:

A Wiccan is a specific denomination of pagan religions. Duotheistic, small group oriented.

truthunter:

if true how can you say the creator goddess is rooted in Celtic beliefs as this room has said

RED DEER:

While much was preserved in Ireland, creation stories - which would have to be counter to Genesis - probably would not have been!

WiseWitch:

Doesn't appear to have ANY, RD. Oh, it has "Dagda and his club made THIS, and the Morrigu made THAT" but it's more landscaping.

EroticWitch:

isn't shamanism from Celtic times

truthunter:

counter or parallel Genesis....as many cultures do

RED DEER:

This room has not said that, Truth

truthunter:

yes it has Red often

kb119:

Is this a witch area ?

WiseWitch:

None of the Celts here said it!

WiseWitch:

Yup, kb, it is.

Patrickk:

These are Christian principles. Know that Christ exists and loves you all. Just ask Him to come into your life and He will and He will give you rest. God bless all!

truthunter:

whow thanks Pat

RED DEER:

Members of the room have...but there is NO consensus.

truthunter:

ok agree red

WiseWitch:

That will depend on what you mean by 'shamanism'.

EroticWitch:

Wicca is honoring the goddess and god just because it is not in a church does not make it other wise pat.

RED DEER:

People tend to lump Pagans together and think we all believe the same thing, as Christians do... however, Paganism is a very personal and self-determined religion

Pixelite:

No thanks Pat... Christianity is to violent for me...

kb119:

Are you all seeking peace ?

EroticWitch:

thanks Red Deer

WiseWitch:

On the whole, we've found peace in following the God/dess/es that call us.

Freinsch:

We have found it thanks KB

RED DEER:

MM truffula...seen the Lorax lately (g)?

truthunter:

pagan wiccan and xians are all birds of the same feather just do what you want and if you believe it its so and ok....this does not define truth

EroticWitch:

why do we have wars based on religion all over the world based on Christianity

RED DEER:

who can define truth, hunter?

kb119:

How do you know what peace really is ?

WiseWitch:

Hunter, we know what we know, and don't worry about it if the God/dess/es don't show the same things

RED DEER:

Truth, I think, is as ineffable as the Goddess!

truthunter:

erotic. that is to tunnellized check Bosnia and the tutus

WiseWitch:

I looked up the word in the dictionary, kb!

truthunter:

in Africa today and the pasitain

truthunter:

any many others

Freinsch:

Each person defines truth.

kb119:

Oh , okay !

RED DEER:

If we all look at a tree...i call it quercus, you call it oak, someone else calls it asdk;fjh...is it not still the same tree?

truffula:

last time i saw him he was dancing about with the barbelutes in their barbelute suits. Not doimg so well however.

RED DEER:

Only our language divides us...the nature of the tree is constant!

RED DEER:

As is that of the God/dess/es

WiseWitch:

folks, I have to run - there are 4 Laurel and Hardy movies on this afternoon and I've got a date to see 'em! Later!

truthunter:

Red if you say jump off the building and its ok ...I say don't you'll get hurt. can we both speak truth

kb119:

Red Deer , are you an Indian ?

RED DEER:

(SORRY kb...not I'm not)

RED DEER:

Well, so long as he still speaks for the trees, truffula

truffula:

Unless......

RED DEER:

Therein lies the nature of personal truth, hunter

truthunter:

ahhh red, bull. you know personal or not both are not truth

EroticWitch:

it is all a matter of perception with oneself

RED DEER:

If I perceive it so and can fly - 'tis OK FOR ME... I can't tell you that it is for you - you must perceive your own truth and act upon that!

EroticWitch:

thank you RD

kb119:

What is an Erotic Which ?

truthunter:

that type of thinking is why we have such decay in society ...the lack of human willingness to place values on basic truths

RED DEER:

For followers of the Light, the ONE truth is that it is NOT OK to harm others...followers of the darkness will take a diametrically opposed view... still there is no consensual Truth

Freinsch:

what basic truths?

truthunter:

that was not meant individually red. as a whole

EroticWitch:

first learn how to spell WITCH

truffula:

agreed

kb119:

Sorry

truthunter:

its ok to think you can fly. if its what you think then for you its ok

truffula:

Which Witch is Which?

RED DEER:

I didn't say think, hunter

kb119:

yup

RED DEER:

If I only think it, then I'll be in deep doodoo when I jump

truthunter:

perception is thought

RED DEER:

Disagree - thought follows perception

EroticWitch:

you must satisfy the questions within in yourself to discover what these truths mean to you through Wicca

truthunter:

ok

Freinsch:

People lie to themselves all the time, it doesn't make what they say "truth"

truffula:

perception is view

RED DEER:

I can perceive the God/dess/es, but I can NOT think them

truthunter:

thanks red and folk gotta go

thuds:

There are as many truths as there are people in the world.

RED DEER:

though I can think OF them

archdruid:

to those who were part of the help during my recent divorce, (final this past Friday), may the goddess bless you with goodness and Joy I was able to keep my three boys praise the Goddess

EroticWitch:

when you lie to yourself you are limiting yourself to your growth

Sefse:

My divorce was a great liberation! Hi, Freinsch!

RED DEER:

Well, this has been a GREAT discussion...hope it has provoked thought for all.

RED DEER:

gotta go now...little 'uns need Daddy

EroticWitch:

bye Red Deer

Pixelite:

BB & MP Red Deer

Sefse:

Bye.

RED DEER:

Brightest Blessings & Merry Part All - hope to see you again soon (at least next Sunday in class!)

Freinsch:

Red Deer, thanks for getting it started.. We didn't stay on topic, but we never do.

RED DEER:

{{{room}}}

Freinsch:

MP RD