RED DEER:

I was planning a discussion of dualism

Nestor:

yes let's let Red Deer get started --sorry

Morrigan:

I moved two years ago and still have unpacked boxes in the attic

Arcadea:

Go For it RD

Pixelite:

Please RD

Morrigan:

brb

RED DEER:

OK... Could some one ward the door?

KittyCutie:

i know i'm late

Arcadea:

MM Kittie

Nestor:

sorry RD have to leave in a few minutes to go to work

RED DEER:

no prob, Nestor...

KittyCutie:

MM Arcadea

RED DEER:

Well, let's begin with a question...

Cloudburst:

I have to go too; something just came up. BB, everybody

RED DEER:

but first, another question...

Arcadea:

MP Cloud

Pixelite:

I'm back--Kitty was on top of TV--I'll ward for you RD--but I'll have to do it the hard way I don't have any thing set up

RED DEER:

I'd like to hear peoples ideas of dualism, what it is

RED DEER:

thanks Pixe

Morrigan:

as in right-wrong?

Morrigan:

good-bad?

RED DEER:

polarities are dual

Mr Charles:

Goddess-God?

RED DEER:

I mean more in the Descartian sense

Ocean's blue:

Merry Meet all, sorry I'm late

Morrigan:

please explain

ankh:

MM ocean

Nestor:

I see it rather as a bipolar arrangement in which each pole need and must cooperate with each other -- even if just to assure it's own existence

RED DEER:

Descarte was a noted philosopher... "I think, therefore I am." I actually prefer "I am, therefore I think." The first is a dualisitic statement, the second holistic. Descartes' dualization leads to separation... mind or body instead of mind and body sacred and profane instead of a universe born of the God/dess/es it follows linear, rational thinking now, an easy question....

RED DEER:

Is Christianity a dualistic religion?

ankh:

to a degree

Morrigan:

yes

Ocean's blue:

Yes

RED DEER:

what makes you say "to a degree" ankh?

ankh:

there are too many contradictions to be sure

ankh:

such as in some versions of the bible Satan is used as a proper name

RED DEER:

well, IMHO, since Christianity separates spiritual from physical, holy from not, heaven from earth, life from death... it IS

ankh:

in king james version its used only once

ankh:

yes i see

Morrigan:

good bad...right...wrong

Mr Charles:

I understand now

Ocean's blue:

yes, I follow your thinking,

RED DEER:

Satan is a proper name... the Lord of Light, the highest of the archangels 'before the fall'

ankh:

but in the Latin form from which it came it means adversary

RED DEER:

If you do good, and ask forgiveness for your sins, you'll be allowed into heaven for all eternity... therefore dual - you want out of sinful creation.

RED DEER:

Now, a little bit harder question...

Ocean's blue:

ok

RED DEER:

Is Wicca a dualistic religion? (Not in the sense of a Goddess and a God)

Ocean's blue:

No, I don't believe so

ankh:

no

Morrigan:

I don't think so

Mr Charles:

i don't think so either

ZoeFoe1:

No, because you are responsible for your own actions.

Morrigan:

right

Merope:

more like pluralism,,,

Ocean's blue:

is it not about rewelding separated things back together?

RED DEER:

Let's hear more ideas on why it is NOT dualistic

ankh:

it doesn't separate heaven and hell

RED DEER:

Well, responsibility leading to recompense isn't dualistic

Morrigan:

doesn't believe in Satan or an evil force

ankh:

well wait

RED DEER:

and putting things together isn't dualistic...

ankh:

it doesn't separate good from evil "to say"

RED DEER:

BTW, and IHMO, things don't need putting back together...

ankh:

but constructive and destructive

Mr Charles:

bad is not blamed on some evil being but accepted as something that is within our control

RED DEER:

All is one, all part of the Web in the Wiccan view... the separation exists only in our incorrect perception, which is caused by our rational, logical, linear minds

RED DEER:

correct... no separation of heaven from hell

Pixelite:

We all have the capacity to do 'good' or 'evil' and we must deal with the consequences of our actions.... there isn't a separate being to blame them on.

Ocean's blue:

I was speaking figuratively, ie Christianity tried to separate these ideas, we put the ideas back together not the world as we know it

RED DEER:

and correct... evil vs good is a choice of sentient beings, not two distinct forces

RED DEER:

gotcha, Ob

Ocean's blue:

hehehe {properly put in her place}

RED DEER:

can anyone think of basic philosophical ways in which Wicca IS dualistic?

ankh:

constructive and destructive

RED DEER:

ankh, let me define another term - from my perspective

ankh:

even destructive magick isn't evil

Ocean's blue:

no ankh, i don't think so... constructive and destructive are inherently part of each other no, so they are not separate and dualistic

ankh:

i follow you Ocean

RED DEER:

the universe is full of POLARITIES (good/evil, female/male, night/day, Goddess/God, etc.) You got it Ob

ankh:

but i don't agree with ocean

RED DEER:

these are not dualistic, but polarized...

Ocean's blue:

aww polarities well yes, now the question makes more sense

RED DEER:

Dualities are mind/body (when viewed as separate) and the properties of light as particle and wave (when you try to make it one or the other, which it is not)

ankh:

sorry i was on the wrong track, i follow you RD

RED DEER:

no prob ankh... I should have clarified my dual vs polar terminology from the outset

RED DEER:

So, polarities aside, can anyone think of dualistic principles in Wicca?

ankh:

i have a question for you RD

RED DEER:

ask ankh... will answer TTBOMA

Morrigan:

TTBOMA?

ankh:

why if everything in nature is male or female, how did the Christians come up with only one god?

RED DEER:

to the best of my ability, Morrigan

Morrigan:

oh

Merope:

they didn't

Morrigan:

what about the Virgin?

RED DEER:

oh, that's a class in itself, ankh... has to do with the patriarchal revolution, tribalism, and a host of other stuff...

Merope:

some of the Gnostic gospels make reference to god being male and female...

ankh:

i was raised a catholic and they only taught me about GOD

ankh:

i was never taught them RD

Merope:

they were of course omitted from the NT

ankh:

of course

RED DEER:

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism recognize only one MALE god at present...

Morrigan:

the collective ALL then Merope?

RED DEER:

has not always (historically) been so

ankh:

that's what puzzles me

ankh:

why did all these religions pick only a male god to worship?

RED DEER:

If you reread the old testament, and take the principle figures to be an ancient pantheon, you'll be amazed!

Arcadea:

what do you mean "at present" RD

RED DEER:

Samson, the Sun God & Delilah the Moon Goddess

Morrigan:

ooo good point Red Deer!

Merope:

it was a power struggle Ankh and as RD says that is a class in itself. Oh the goddess is mentioned in the bible

RED DEER:

and, Annwn will be discussing this stuff in detail in an upcoming class, Blessed Be!

Merope:

Astarte and Artemis are there,,,

ankh:

yes but so far its been my experience that females are more in tune and of higher intellect, on average

RED DEER:

that's cultural, not truly spiritual

Merope:

hehehe

RED DEER:

we all have the same potentials

Morrigan:

really...heheh

ankh:

in my experience only, not trying to start a fight

RED DEER:

anyway, can anyone think of any dualities in Wicca?

Merope:

don't start an argument ankh {EG}

annwyn:

bad choice of men ankh{G}

RED DEER:

I don't fight, ankh, but I LOVE to debate

ankh:

i'm male buy the way

DeathDesire:

{G}

Morrigan:

{BG}

RED DEER:

same here, ankh

RED DEER:

{vbeg}

annwyn:

LOL

Morrigan:

lol

Dragonmoose:

{----likes ankh attitude!

annwyn:

Likes men

ZoeFoe1:

So do I!

Morrigan:

{----would let my daughter date Ankh

ankh:

you have to understand i have not studied Wicca long

RED DEER:

{--- likes Annie

Pixelite:

{---men can be handy to have around {g}

DeathDesire:

{VBG}

ankh:

man i'm a bad speller

RED DEER:

no prob ankh... if everyone here were seasoned, this would be a much different class!

Autumn21:

i loooove men

Morrigan:

I'm very new too ankh

ZoeFoe1:

Unseasoned, pass me the salt

Pixelite:

{---hands ankh a spell checker (too bad they don't work in here {g})

Mr Charles:

as well as i

RED DEER:

OK... back to topic, please

ankh:

LOL

RED DEER:

Is the Rede an expression of dualism?

annwyn:

Going to work before I get myself in trouble...{G}MP

ankh:

not sure

Ocean's blue:

I have a male feminist friend who claims well woman are not necessarily superior, the feminine element, or nature is superior to the male

Autumn21:

how

Morrigan:

I don't know the Rede!

Dragonmoose:

Rede?

ZoeFoe1:

I thought the Rede was about actions

RED DEER:

The Rede is the source of "An it harm none..."

Morrigan:

I know that part

ankh:

do what thou wilt

RED DEER:

Many interpret the Rede as a code of magickal ethics...

Morrigan:

isn't it?

Ocean's blue:

I'm not sure that would be seen as dualistic, or even polarized

RED DEER:

would anyone disagree?

Autumn21:

i interpret it into everything

RED DEER:

EXCELLENT Autumn

Pixelite:

I consider it for all things... not just magic.

Autumn21:

thank you

Dragonmoose:

In the Harm None sense...how about when one is faced with protecting themselves from violence with violence?

RED DEER:

if it is a code of magickal ethics, there is an implied duality between magick and 'other' (ie, mundane reality)

Ocean's blue:

Ethics are ethics, you can't really hold true to them and apply them only in certain situations

Autumn21:

in that sense i feel you must do what you must

RED DEER:

self-defense is allowed dragon, but reflection of force rather than defensive counter-attack is preferred

RED DEER:

YES Ob!

Autumn21:

yes

ankh:

i agree Red Deer

Dragonmoose:

Reflection of force?

Pixelite:

and you must live with the results......

DeathDesire:

and then some

Morrigan:

like in forms of jujitsu?

RED DEER:

So, when interpreted that way, the Rede gives rise to no dualism... For those who think it's only about magick, their world view is in schism

Autumn21:

...and the guilt

Morrigan:

for example

Autumn21:

schism???

Morrigan:

I see

Mr Charles:

division

Autumn21:

oh

RED DEER:

like that, physically, dragon... magickally, like a mirror spell to send evil workings back upon their weaver

Ocean's blue:

In other words it is our own view of things that makes something either dualistic or not????

RED DEER:

they experience the magickal as separate from the physical...

Autumn21:

that makes sense

RED DEER:

much like Christianity separates divinity from the physical

Merope:

spells of protection done before hand to keep yourself out of such dangers in this first place... that and common sense :)

Autumn21:

i don't see how they do that

Morrigan:

and are you saying that they are not separate then?

Morrigan:

each part of one another?

RED DEER:

BUT if the universe and all in it emanate DIRECTLY from the Goddess and God, then ALL reality is one, and the physical IS magickal!

Autumn21:

yes...true

Morrigan:

got it

Dragonmoose:

Of course, but in today's world you can be faced with violence in any situation, Merope.

RED DEER:

Wiccans recognize this in the view that the physical (feasting, sex, etc) are direct and magickal ways to praise the Lady and Lord

RED DEER:

Now, what about casting the circle?

Autumn21:

ok, i'm back

DeathDesire:

creating your own sacred space

Ocean's blue:

is casting the circle dualistic???

Ocean's blue:

no

RED DEER:

I think that depends on your view of what's being done, Ob

Merope:

ah as a duality of sacred space vs the other

RED DEER:

yup, Merope

DeathDesire:

well while you're physically here you could be spiritually working also

Merope:

but if the earth is our mother than all here is sacred space,,,,,,,,

Autumn21:

the other????

RED DEER:

how can the circle be a sacred space outside the rest, when all the cosmos is sacred?

Ocean's blue:

ahhh, but if all space in this world is sacred to us... then no

RED DEER:

agreed, Merope

RED DEER:

and Ob

DeathDesire:

more like protective space then

Morrigan:

so then why is it necessary?

Autumn21:

yes....dd

Ocean's blue:

I'm not sure it is.. imho

RED DEER:

Wicca can be viewed as dualistic if one insists that the Circle is separate and more sacred than all else

DeathDesire:

it opens...yet closes.

Morrigan:

that's what I thought Death...that it was a space created to protect yourself

RED DEER:

(IMHO, a naive view, but one many newcomers fall prey to)

Autumn21:

so did i

Nenais'u:

::smiling::...cleaning house, hmm?

Merope:

and yet perhaps a circle is just a more concentrated source of sacredness

Autumn21:

IMHO????

Ocean's blue:

in my humble opinion

Morrigan:

wait...what is a naive view?

Autumn21:

oh,.

RED DEER:

I believe that the Circle is a process to bring our linear and divisive minds (our consciousness) into line with the singular nature of the universe...

Morrigan:

to become one with..?

RED DEER:

not a way to separate sacred space from non-sacred space

Ocean's blue:

it's a question of focusing ourselves

DeathDesire:

it is only one of the many.. red

RED DEER:

exactly, Morrigan... to suspend the sensory and rational processes that constantly tell us that WE are separate

Morrigan:

got it

Autumn21:

i see the circle as a space to keep evil, or negativity away, henceforth, protecting yourself, Silverrun

RED DEER:

For me, this is the only way to maintain a holistic world view while practicing Witchcraft

Ocean's blue:

so if one can create that focus independently the circle becomes less important???

RED DEER:

Ah, an excellent question... Does ritual ever cease to be important???

Morrigan:

is it merely symbolic?

RED DEER:

I don't feel so, Morrigan

Autumn21:

me either

Morrigan:

I didn't think so

RED DEER:

It is real, but its symbolism is what leads us into the Web

Ocean's blue:

I believe its important, but not absolutely necessary to magic. I think it's important we realize and practice this

RED DEER:

agreed... the practiced user of magick can weave without a circle, can raise a cone without a circle...

Ocean's blue:

there are times we need to call on the magick, when we simply cannot cast a circle

WiseWitch:

Well there's ritual and there's ritual. Once you are very practiced you can raise a circle with one word, not go through the entire 'cleanse then invoke 4 quarters....'

PaleHawk:

I think it is necessary when you are gathered with others

RED DEER:

BUT, I think the ritual remains important to keep the mind repetitiously in touch with reality rather than perception

RED DEER:

Yes, {{{Pale}}} it's a way to bring you all to the same place

Morrigan:

oh ya! I remember reading about that!

Ocean's blue:

I never meant to imply that one could simply do away with the ritual

RED DEER:

like recharging batteries

Ocean's blue:

only that one should learn to work without it

DeathDesire:

{G}

Morrigan:

right!

RED DEER:

they keep going and going and going - until they're dead...

Autumn21:

at such times i have cast through visualization circles of white light around me

PaleHawk:

exactly, {{{ Red Deer}}} helps all to focus and increase the cone of power more

RED DEER:

but if you keep them recharged, they just keep going! That's what I feel the circle does for us... keeps the mind charged with the reality of unity, rather than separating a sacred space from the world

RED DEER:

By the same token, I don't treat our altar as something that cannot be desecrated with articles from 'mundane' life

Ocean's blue:

i guess as a solitary, i have had a little less focus on ritual etc, than where exactly my head is at any given moment

RED DEER:

I place my jewelry and keys and other stuff from my pockets there every evening...

Autumn21:

i'm solitary, yet i have had ample experience with ritual

RED DEER:

In this way, all this "mundania" helps me to remain centered on my belief that magick, the Lady and Lord, are all and everywhere...

Dragonmoose:

Can/is the circle and ritual.. power of suggestion?

RED DEER:

every breath, every awakening, every feast is sacred

Ocean's blue:

I use rituals, but they tend to be less formal, more personalized

PaleHawk:

As a solitary.......... it is required to cast a circle in order to learn focus and to be able to become in tune with oneself ... also with the God/Dess

Merope:

you have room on your altar to put anything??? wow what a concept!

Morrigan:

then do you also use your tools for other purposes as well?

Autumn21:

PERFECTLY SAID pale

RED DEER:

Merope, we have a whole room that is an altar... our foyer!

Morrigan:

like in the kitchen?

DeathDesire:

{G}

WiseWitch:

Morrigan, some of us 'kitchen witches' only use tools that are multipurpose.

Merope:

aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh {G}

Autumn21:

i have a portable altar

RED DEER:

we also have other altars about the house

Ocean's blue:

hehehe

Morrigan:

thanx WW I'm exploring all traditions right now.

Nenais'u:

I agree Pale....

RED DEER:

RADICAL CONCEPT... we ARE portable altars

Mr Charles:

how many alters do wiccans usually have

Morrigan:

I only have one Charles

Merope:

many altars but I have only one altar

Ocean's blue:

I have an altar in my kitchen 12ft x 18in

Autumn21:

no....i meant i use the bench from my vanity

Autumn21:

in my bedroom

RED DEER:

depends on whom you ask, Charles... I can count the ones I designate as altars, but when all the universe is part of Lady and Lord, all the universe is an altar...

WiseWitch:

{----conjure room, garden, kitchen stove, and woodstove for me. 4, plus any spontaneous ones.

PaleHawk:

Main altar hidden......... but there is an alter in every room {s}

RED DEER:

(kinda like the circle concept)

Pixelite:

I have to set mine up each time cause I have a roommate... articles stay the same...place may change.

DeathDesire:

{G}

Autumn21:

so do i

Autumn21:

cause i share my room with my twin

WiseWitch:

{---whole home is altar/sacred space. windchimes outside at east, pool at west, bushes for earth at east, etc.

Morrigan:

Mine is quite temporary as we have little space and small children

Ocean's blue:

I try to put some small ritual, or significance in each thing I do

Ocean's blue:

so virtually every space in my home serves as alter each day

WiseWitch:

bushes at north, that is.

Dragonmoose:

Again......about power of suggestion. Does this have anything to do with wiccan ritual?

RED DEER:

WiseWitch... thought your bush was south {g}

Dragonmoose:

?

Pixelite:

Neat concept WW! When I build a house I think I'll keep that in mind!

DeathDesire:

LOL

Freinsch:

lol

Mr Charles:

lol

RED DEER:

dragon... magick is a state of mind, therefore, suggestion is a part of what is needed...

Pixelite:

{GG}

Autumn21:

lol

WiseWitch:

That was the one good think I found in Cunningham's "the magickal household" - that every thing done and in the house can reinforce the sacredness.

Ocean's blue:

although I do have a more formal space in the bedroom, its on wheels so I move it into the living room for Sabbats etc

Morrigan:

oh...just got that! lol

RED DEER:

that doesn't limit what is done or made to being only for suggestion, though

WiseWitch:

it's only totally east when I'm sitting on the ground, RD! [g]

DeathDesire:

{g}

Morrigan:

jeez!

RED DEER:

LOL

Morrigan:

lol

WiseWitch:

south, that is. sheesh.

Autumn21:

lol

Arcadea:

late nite last nite WW?

RED DEER:

Well, that's pretty much the sum of my ideas about dualism - for now...

Freinsch:

Too much revel last nite WW

Autumn21:

miss your coffee this morning WW??

Dragonmoose:

RD, I have a horrible time focusing and feel that I am unable to ...breech.

Dragonmoose:

...or even suggest.

Ocean's blue:

Red Deer I have an unrelated question

RED DEER:

I DO think it's important for us all to reflect on ideas like this, because it's so easy for any with traditional upbringings to let some deeply rooted concepts (like dualism) seep into our view and practice of WitchCraft

Ocean's blue:

How do I download the class notes posted on BB

imp:

a witch

Morrigan:

good question OB!

Autumn21:

witch

Ocean's blue:

thank you I was fighting with the damned thing for an hour last night

DeathDesire:

:)

RED DEER:

Ob, the best way is to get the BBNM... then you download everything in a minute or two, read and write OFF line, and upload back

Pixelite:

Easiest way is to have BBNM {g}

Ocean's blue:

And I really want a copy of Zen's Quantum class, seeing as I had to miss it

RED DEER:

saves a TON of P* hours

Morrigan:

BBNM?

Ocean's blue:

BBMN???

Pixelite:

Bulletin Board Note Manager...

WiseWitch:

bbnm = bulletin board note manager.

Morrigan:

oooh

Morrigan:

where do I get this?

RED DEER:

Bulletin Board Note Manager... you can get it from P* for $20. It pays for itself in about a week!

Morrigan:

cool

Morrigan:

ok...where do I find a copy of the REDE?

Pixelite:

I couldn't live without mine, Morrigan...

RED DEER:

Ob, without BBNM, when you're reading, look for a download button...

RED DEER:

I never go to the boards on-line anymore, so don't know what it looks like

Ocean's blue:

Ok thanks Red Deer

Pixelite:

Yes RD... aren't they confusing after getting used to the simplicity of BBNM??

Morrigan:

my hubby will be happy to know about this as he always complains about my on line time!

RED DEER:

yup

Pixelite:

RD... are we finished with class? should I stop warding {g}

RED DEER:

you can also get software for E-Mail managing that works the same way...

Autumn21:

my mom complains bout mine too

Morrigan:

{{{{{DragonMoose}}}}}}

RED DEER:

I think so Pixe... thanks for the help!

Morrigan:

I have the E Mail one RD

Pixelite:

No problem!

Morrigan:

ok...where do I get a copy of the REDE??

Pixelite:

I have BBNM and EMC and I probably spend about 20 minutes of on-line time a day--unless I go on chat {g}

Autumn21:

half pagan-half wiccan

RED DEER:

Last word, folks 1) anyone who wants to be on the mailing list and isn't E-mail me your ID @ HUZD85A, 2) WE NEED SOME TEACHERS!

Morrigan:

Red DEER.....where do I find a copy of the REDE?

RED DEER:

Morrigan, I'll try to post it on the BB ASAP

Morrigan:

whew! thanx RD!