RED DEER:

OK... Tathagatha will be right back. Let's review the class rules?

Sylverhare:

Lets

Warmuth:

sit by me Dr, and I'll purple up that aura for you

Nestor:

OK - RED DEER

Mernya:

purple = psychic abilities

Dr Holliday:

sure thing. ::::takes a seat next to

Warmuth:

::

RED DEER:

1. Tathagatha wards. He'll meet every one at the door and let them know what's up

Nestor:

no punching in the clinches, no hitting below the belt

DeathDesire:

LOL

Mernya:

What about nudity?

Morrigan:

lol

Dr Holliday:

i'm for it

DeathDesire:

a skyclad class?

Mernya:

LOL I am a troublemaker

RED DEER:

2. Please keep MMs and MPs in IM so as to minimize disruptions to class

Warmuth:

well, I thought that was better than red in mixed company

RED DEER:

3. Tathagatha holds the right of exclusion... WITHOUT COMMENT

Nestor:

AGREED

Freinsch:

Righto

Dr Holliday:

AGREED

DeathDesire:

k

SongSpring:

Agreed

RED DEER:

so, if he excludes, please don't continue talking to or about excludees

Xori:

k

Morrigan:

k

SilverFawn:

ok

Raavin:

ok

RED DEER:

and I need a minute to turn my IMs off

Dr Holliday:

SHR THING

SongSpring:

It is a good idea also to turn off the announcements of who is entering and leaving

Dr Holliday:

I would like to take this time to thank every one for being here today.

RED DEER:

Tonight, I'd like to begin with the basics of magick

RED DEER:

The word 'magic' is derived from the Greek "Magike Techne", meaning the art of the Magi.

quickening:

go ahead i'm listening red deer

RED DEER:

The Magi were Priests of ancient Persia (Iran) who also practiced in Chaldea and Babylon.

Sylverhare:

Zoroastrians?

Dr Holliday:

only men? or where women allowed as well

chino one:

Q after or before Christ

RED DEER:

They were similar in some ways to the Druids, favoring a simple mode of life and a vegetarian diet.

Mernya:

BC

RED DEER:

The Magi worshipped no idols.

chino one:

k

Tathagatha:

maybe we could do questions on Red Deer's prompt?

RED DEER:

pre Zoroaster, Sylver

Sylverhare:

ok

RED DEER:

only men, as far as we know, DR

RED DEER:

before Christ, chino

Dr Holliday:

that is harsh

RED DEER:

They chose the Divine and Sacred Fire as the symbol of their Divine Being. The Divine Fire burned in their sanctuaries and was never allowed to burn out.

RED DEER:

Parallels to this practice existed in the Temple of the Vestal Virgins in Rome and the Presence Lamps that are kept always burning in some Roman Catholic Churches.

Dr Holliday:

so what you are saying is that all religions as we know them now came from

RED DEER:

The Greeks were unaware of any other caste of priests who practiced magickal arts (among the Persians), so they thought the Magi responsible for them all. This demonstrates how isolated and ill-informed ancient {g} peoples often were of other cultures. The Egyptians had a quite formidable magical system, much of which we know from the Egyptian Book of the Dead

Dr Holliday:

i thought that was a myth

RED DEER:

They practiced many years before the Magi in Persia. There is also a Tibetan Book of the Dead, which details a magickal system derived from Tibetan funeral rites.

The Greeks may have gained their root word for magic from the Indo-European word MAGH - to be able, to have power to

RED DEER:

Aliester Crowley started the custom of spelling magic as magick, as he felt this would help differentiate between the illusions that are stock in trade of stage magicians and real magic as practiced by serious students of the occult.

RED DEER:

OK any questions so far?

Dr Holliday:

yes

RED DEER:

DR?

Dr Holliday:

the books of the dead, are they not only a myth and rumor?

RED DEER:

myth and rumor have no connection, DR

RED DEER:

rumor is unsubstantiated, where as the reality of these books is not

Suldrun:

(raises hand)

Nestor:

yes , Red Deer -- it seems that the ancient people were well aware of the practices of their neighboring pole as shown by the Greek historians -- they also knew of the divisions of the

Sylverhare:

it is interesting that magical systems are outlined in "Books of the Dead". It might be helpful for Wiccans interested in practicing magick to compare these books to our own initiation rites {suggestion for all}

SongSpring:

books of the dead are found in almost every culture, correct RD?

RED DEER:

and, give me a great myth any day... that's what my religion is made of

Nestor:

Persians by religious classed

Warmuth:

I think it is important to note that "magick" or "magic" is just a word. Whatever you call it, it has been practiced from the beginning of mankind

RED DEER:

Aye Warmuth

annwyn:

Thank you Warmuth...I was thinking same

RED DEER:

Yet the words we use influence our concepts of that with which we work

SongSpring:

Yes indeed Warmuth

Suldrun:

do you know of any books or classes in the CA area where I could learn more on rituals of Wiccans?

Nestor:

Red Deer --more to the point --what do you see as the operational definitions and laws of magick?

RED DEER:

ok...

Dr Holliday:

what of the concept of good and evil, are they not one and the same.

SongSpring:

The main difference in the spelling that we use now is to distinguish between simple parlor tricks and true Magick

Tathagatha:

Sul...i live in San Diego...maybe i could help you after class...ok?

RED DEER:

Magic involves the ability to recognize and understand

Dr Holliday:

as pointed out in the devils notebook by Mr LeVey

Suldrun:

'k

RED DEER:

the underlying forces of nature and the laws which govern them. People who don't understand or fail to recognize these laws

Warmuth:

there are 4 true laws to magic.. or rather "must do's".

RED DEER:

see magic as a supernatural act performed against God and therefore sinful

Dr Holliday:

But if you believe in the bible, all magick is sinful

Suldrun:

I have been told about three snakes, black red and white that if seen can cause different things to happen, I was told this is a part of some forces in magick where did these snakes come

RED DEER:

Go ahead Warmuth...

Morrigan:

I don't believe in the bible

Suldrun:

from and are they real or fiction?

Warmuth:

#1 is to know exactly what you want and exactly the repercussions of it

Nestor:

how do you feel about Dione Fortune's definition of magic as "Causing a change in consciousness in accordance with your will"?

Warmuth:

#2 to will it into being with all you might and power

RED DEER:

Nestor... I couldn't agree more... in altering consciousness according to will, we also alter reality

Warmuth:

#3 to dare to do it even with the repercussions of it and to take responsibility for it

Tathagatha:

aye, Rd

annwyn:

that the reality also changes...

SongSpring:

Indeed Warmuth

Warmuth:

#4 and to be quiet about it and not to brag or tell others about it

Suldrun:

Aye Warmuth

annwyn:

creating that reality from what is readily available...

Tathagatha:

hehe....#4 is my #1{G}

RED DEER:

that is the very essence of magic... that the reality changes as the perception, the inner representation of it does.

Suldrun:

just to play devils advocate, how do you know if it is real or not

Nestor:

the magician's creed Lady Warmuth --to know, to will, to dare to keep silent

RED DEER:

interesting principles, War... any one else care to comment on them?

Suldrun:

how do you know you REALLY did something

Sylverhare:

because it works suldrun

Warmuth:

because it works!

Tathagatha:

Sul...what is reality? to each being it is different.

SongSpring:

It does work.. even "simple" things like making your car quit acting up, etc.

Suldrun:

True but my friend let say lost herself in demons

Xori:

reality = one's perception of it?

RED DEER:

Sul... one reason it may be difficult to prove magic, is that in working it we may leave disbelieves in the OTHER reality

annwyn:

I only have a question regarding knowing exactly what you want and exactly what the repercussions might be...

RED DEER:

{g}

SongSpring:

Suldrun, the demons of the mind can be great.. but have only the power you give to them.

Ocean'sEdge:

I find it helps to think of it as it was once described to me as a "reality is a smooth pond each pebble we cast into it creates ripples, the key is controlling where the ripples go"

DeathDesire:

one's interpretation?

annwyn:

I think we can only be sure within a certain realm of our understanding

Suldrun:

I couldn't sense a thing, very frustrating, I agree with you Red but

annwyn:

which is where responsibility comes into play

SongSpring:

Ocean, very true.

Tathagatha:

hey guys n gals.....easy now....slow down a bit, ok?

Morrigan:

I like that OE

DeathDesire:

{G}

RED DEER:

{g}

annwyn:

I do consider focus, however, important

Suldrun:

lol mind demons of course.

Dr Holliday:

{EG}

Nestor:

A. Crowley also defined magic as "Causing an event to occur in conformity with your will" -- this means focusing and directing to accomplish and act as you have previous set your goals

Warmuth:

True, but you must still take responsibility for the things that you have not taken into consideration too

Sylverhare:

The theoretical model that works best for me is a version of Schroedingers Cat: Reality exists as a field of probability until directly observed, when the field collapses to a point; Magick is a way of preprogramming your observation

annwyn:

yes Warm

RED DEER:

as is science, Sylver

Ocean'sEdge:

however controlling ripples on a pond is not always easy, sometimes impossible, we sometimes have results that are unforeseen, that is why so much care must be taken

Sylverhare:

yes

Tathagatha:

kewl Sylver....collapsing the chi function....my view exactly

RED DEER:

most scientists only get answers to the questions they ask... thus altering reality as they research

Xori:

yes

Tathagatha:

aye RD

Warmuth:

I think it depends on how important it is to you to control those ripples in the pond

annwyn:

or they direct their intent to receive their answers because they are looking for validation

RED DEER:

or how locally you determine to act, Warmuth

Morrigan:

at least control the ones closest to you

Warmuth:

true

Dr Holliday:

Just because something isn't seen does not mean it does not exist.

Suldrun:

how do we know something is truly true in magick is as humans we know reality through the senses if we cant sense then it isn't true, right? But if only I can sense it and tell others about it

Morrigan:

ex: sound waves

Nestor:

yes Red Deer it can be seen as a science -- I have often told people who want to study magic that is "Simply a matter of energy engineering" --does that sound rational to you?

Xori:

does intent play an important function on unforeseen consequences - uncontrollable ripples?

Suldrun:

they look at me as though I am crazy

RED DEER:

one can always reweave a small space, and leave it to the universe to let it fit with the larger web

SongSpring:

I think it is best to understand each direction those ripples could take in any event... especially when under taking a large working.

annwyn:

energy is abundant...all things are connected

Suldrun:

how do I know I am not crazy that is why I want to learn more (g)

Morrigan:

energy engineering! I like that!

DeathDesire:

me too

RED DEER:

well, I think it's a bit more than energy, Nestor, but certainly engineering!

Warmuth:

But I also think it is important to note that Magick without Religion is soulless

SongSpring:

And without ethics Warmuth.

RED DEER:

I would never advocate not taking the larger picture into account, Song, only to weave with but a small area

Morrigan:

without ethics yes

Nestor:

Aye Captain -- I give you a spell in 20 minutes but a psychic deflector shield -- I need more time!!

Dr Holliday:

I have one important question?

Suldrun:

lol nestor

RED DEER:

LOL

RED DEER:

DR?

Morrigan:

nestor I love that sense of humor

DeathDesire:

{G}

SongSpring:

I always end my spells with a protection for me on any rebounded spells

Ocean'sEdge:

hehe

Warmuth:

Jim, I'm only a doctor...not a Magician

Sylverhare:

lol

RED DEER:

One could always choose not to work spells for which rebound would be a fear...

Morrigan:

lol

Ocean'sEdge:

hehehehe

Dr Holliday:

O.K in the area of Satanism, I learned magick, but I found out in this very room that I Know very little, How do I learn More. Please Help me.

Mernya:

read books doc

SongSpring:

Indeed

RED DEER:

Lots of books, DR... learn and learn and learn

Morrigan:

anything by Scott Cunningham is good

annwyn:

and Dr.

Tathagatha:

aye.....being here is good for you, but you can't push the river

annwyn:

give up the idea of Satan..

Danzigger:

Ray Buckland

RED DEER:

DEFINITELY

SongSpring:

Red Deer, there is that danger in almost every spell, but the danger of something rebounding grows with the size of the working...

DeathDesire:

who's that?

Morrigan:

agreed annwyn

Dr Holliday:

But what books are real with viable info and which ones are hogwash??

annwyn:

that is not where the power lies...it is within you and around you

RED DEER:

(definitely give up Satan)

Sylverhare:

and not buy Satanist authors either DR, their usually not very bright

Freinsch:

Can we keep focused on the class please?

Tathagatha:

aye, Fr.....slow down you silly kids!{VBG}

SongSpring:

and I put Satan in the same category with the demons of the mind.. your own self nagging and self denial

Morrigan:

DR...back date on the BB and you will find a really good list of books to read

Warmuth:

I think it is important to get a real hold of the Religion and ethics first...the Magick can come later

RED DEER:

I don't agree, Song... If you know what you're weaving, there are many spells lacking danger...

SongSpring:

Very true War

Nestor:

one of the best ways I have found to work magick and avoid any negative karma -- I state my intentions and reason for doing the 'work' to the Gods before I start -- and add that I

Morrigan:

Agreed Warmuth! That's what I'm doing right now

RED DEER:

Energies turned to growth, healing don't have negative backlash

Nestor:

leave it to Their judgment to alter or improve it as to what is 'just'

SongSpring:

If you know what you are doing yes, you can make spells with no rebound, but that does not mean the possibility does not exist.

RED DEER:

a practice I agree with entirely, Nestor... though my own words are slightly different

Xori:

that's exactly what I was wondering about - thanks Nestor

SongSpring:

RD, what about destructive healing.. destroying a virus, etc..

Ocean'sEdge:

Nestor.. I like that, most of what I do, is formed in a request... i.e. If it be the Goddess's will...

Morrigan:

I don't see where you can get a negative rebound from a positive spell

RED DEER:

but the rebound of the works I mention would be positive!

SongSpring:

I guess what I'm saying is that we must have a deep respect for any magick working and understanding that it is never something to be taken lightly

SongSpring:

This is indeed true RD

Ocean'sEdge:

Absolutely

DeathDesire:

:::::::::::::;raises hand::::::;;;

Warmuth:

exactly

RED DEER:

With that I have absolutely no disagreement, Song

Sylverhare:

agreed DD

Tathagatha:

let us allow RD to direct the conversation, shall we? many lines of inquiry here, but let's be kewl....

Sylverhare:

sorry SS

RED DEER:

DD?

SongSpring:

: )

RED DEER:

Well, I had thought to look a little at the human brain...

Morrigan:

save the tangent questions for after class then. {G}

DeathDesire:

what is classified as magick? a simple request from Goddess or must one cast a circle?

DeathDesire:

a mere thought?

SongSpring:

please continue RD, this is indeed insightful.

Morrigan:

a focused thought

DeathDesire:

well {G}

Morrigan:

{G}

RED DEER:

With the development of the 'higher brain' early humanity was moved from experiencing the world as an integrated whole

DeathDesire:

must it be along with ritual?

Warmuth:

no, DD

SongSpring:

If I may?

RED DEER:

towards participating in a world composed of individual 'things' in which they played an independent role.

DeathDesire:

so then everyone is involved you could say...

RED DEER:

Self-consciousness emerged

SongSpring:

DD, magick can be done anytime and anywhere.. it is a part of you, around you, it is you... but the larger workings sometimes work better when done in the protection of ritual, etc.

DeathDesire:

even without knowing it.

RED DEER:

We began to question how our world worked and how we could control it. Subsequent development of the cerebrum into two specialized organs

Morrigan:

ahhh the elements...the sun...the moon...

Warmuth:

In most people, Magick is like a muscle you never use...it has little strength

RED DEER:

interconnected so that they may work independently or cooperatively

Dr Holliday:

What about the text with in the Necronomicon???

annwyn:

go on RD

Morrigan:

yes RD

Xori:

yes

Mernya:

The Necronomicon is a hoax

SongSpring:

I have a sincere belief that magick is simply a science we are yet to discover.. and *we* the few have not the fear to attempt to work with it.. the nature of magick will be explained someday..

RED DEER:

led to the ability to experience the world from two dynamically different viewpoints

SongSpring:

I'm sure

Warmuth:

but as you use it, it gets stronger and stronger and you begin to learn to understand it and control it

SongSpring:

Indeed War

Sylverhare:

lets stay focused on RD for the nonce folk

RED DEER:

The right cortex excelled in its primal function - maintaining a holistic view of the environment. The left cortex, developed into a linear, linguistic processor

AgnoLogik:

How do you actually begin to use magick if you never have before?...And what is its purpose?

RED DEER:

And we all know how that works...

Morrigan:

let's stay with RD here...two strains of conversation...too much

Morrigan:

isn't the left side stronger than the right?

RED DEER:

Anyway, the need to synthesize a singular world view from these differing perspectives, is - magic

DeathDesire:

would you say imagery and meditation help guide a beginner?

SongSpring:

I sometimes take Cylert, which normally means that my left brain function's enhanced and it suppresses my right brain.. it does make it more challenging to do workings...

RED DEER:

nope Morrigan,,, both are equal, but different

Morrigan:

hmmm

SongSpring:

but possible and I do it easily now...

SongSpring:

I'm used to it.

RED DEER:

In extremis, they can take over for each other

RED DEER:

with MUCH retraining

Morrigan:

hmm

SongSpring:

Tell me about it RD

annwyn:

Just that the Right is more laidback and lets the left forge ahead

annwyn:

{G}

Warmuth:

Yes, DD...they help you learn to focus

Morrigan:

agreed DD

DeathDesire:

:)

Xori:

visualization?

Morrigan:

yes

RED DEER:

{--- is ADHD too, but don't need stims for magic, nor do they interfere

Warmuth:

yes

Ocean'sEdge:

ie stroke victims and brain surgery victims, have been known to retrain other areas of the brain to make up for the damaged areas

Ocean'sEdge:

and lead completely normal lives

Morrigan:

I've heard of that

Xori:

yes ocean - neurons can die and then others make new connections

SongSpring:

Very true Ocean

Ocean'sEdge:

also .. see retraining of dyslexic persons

Ocean'sEdge:

teach the brain new pathways

Xori:

yes

annwyn:

and new ways of receiving information ..Ocean

Dr Holliday:

I

Ocean'sEdge:

I highly recommend Dr. Oliver Sacks' work on neurology.. and the metaphysics of healing..

Warmuth:

what does this have to do with Magick??

DeathDesire:

{G}

Nestor:

Red Deer --I had always told the people who I was training for the Craft that no more than 5% of their efforts should be directed toward 'magic' and other forms of working -- if more

Xori:

so we're saying strengthening one's magick ability is like retraining of dyslexic or brain damaged? kind of?

RED DEER:

you could look at it that way, Xori

Nestor:

than that they were beginning to loose the religious focus of the Craft --how do you feel about that?

annwyn:

I agree Nestor

Xori:

one must use it to make it stronger?

SongSpring:

Nestor, for what it counts, I agree

RED DEER:

We are all habituated into certain ways of looking at the world

Tathagatha:

slow down, everyone....lets keep the chaos at a minimum{G}

Morrigan:

so we can do the same w/ meditation & visualization?

RED DEER:

by our culture, our personal experience and our neurochemistry. magic is about moving outside of that... getting to the infinite variety of possibilities that are really out there and manipulating your course among them

Warmuth:

Magick should always be secondary to religion....

SongSpring:

YES

RED DEER:

Strongly agreed, Warmuth

DeathDesire:

what about religion without magick?

Warmuth:

But it is very seductive...and many seem to forget the religious

SongSpring:

I have seen many a magician.. one with much power.. and no ethics because of the lack of religion.. very scary

Morrigan:

it is done DD

Xori:

isn't religion the basis of it though?

Sylverhare:

Nestor, I: usually explain to students that magick is to Wicca what surgery is to medicine, the primary goal in medicine is to heal the patient and surgery is SOMETIMES the best way to do that, just as in Wicca the primary purpose

Ocean'sEdge:

Nestor... I do very very little, almost no magic.. not so much out of "fear", but because I feel I am not yet learned, or wise enough to use it, religion, and training must come first

Nestor:

Death Desire - I know of no religion that does not have a mystic/magical element in it

The Freya:

I am different, I forget the magic, but remember the religion. {G}

RED DEER:

Well, thanks for the time, all...

Sylverhare:

is to find a relationship with the Gods, and magick is one way to do it

Tathagatha:

and thanks Red Deer......

Danzigger:

you're not alone ocean

RED DEER:

Any who wants to be added to the Wicca 101 mailing list, please E-mail me and I'll get you on

Warmuth:

My husband is my HP and he practices very little Magick...even though he is a very strong Magician...he says it gets in the way of His religion

Ocean'sEdge:

{applause}

Atenovx:

Thank you Red Deer

DeathDesire:

but would a Wiccan be considered in the craft with no knowledge of magick?

Xori:

thank you red deer

SongSpring:

Sylver, I feel the relationship must come first.. when you are ready they will let you know... it was like that for me.

MagicFigures:

Thank you Red Deer

Ocean'sEdge:

Blessed Be Red Deer thank you very much

Morrigan:

thanx RD

Nestor:

Thank You Red Deer MY Brother

ankh:

thanks RD

Raavin:

thanx RD

DeathDesire:

thank you Red Deer

annwyn:

Thank you Rd

RED DEER:

Gotta spilt... {bows} have enjoyed it immensely...

SongSpring:

Good question DD... I would like to hear the answer to that one.. I've never really contemplated it.

MagicFigures:

Blessed Be and Merry Part All

Freinsch:

MP RD

RED DEER:

Brightest Blessings and Merry Part

Tathagatha:

bye RD....c ya soon....