RED DEER:

I need volunteers... a doorward and a couple of loggers {g}

PAniteowl:

Will Log RD

RED DEER:

thanks PA

Miss Mary:

I'm sorry Red Deer, I would help, but I can't stay long.

RED DEER:

Thanks Mary

PAniteowl:

Will help to Ward RD

Pixelite:

RD, Let me pop out of chat a minute and turn on macros and I'll ward for you....

RED DEER:

well, is it PA or Pixe???

PAniteowl:

I will Log, Pixie can ward, OK?

RED DEER:

sounds great... go for it pixe

PaleHawk:

I will be happy to Log as well Red Deer

Pixelite:

I'll be right back... have to turn on macros!

RED DEER:

Review rules before starting?

PAniteowl:

please do RD

Herne:

:}

Miss Mary:

Proceed, Red Deer! The room is yours!

RED DEER:

1) Pixe will have the right of Exclusion - when she excludes, please everyone else cease talking to the excludee

Pixelite:

I'm back and ready!

RED DEER:

2) I'd like to do discussion rather than lecture... Have 13 Laws and some comments... let's discuss each law...

RED DEER:

3) Please keep MMs and MPs in IM so as not to disrupt the flow of discussion.

RED DEER:

OK, let's begin...

RED DEER:

Allow me to begin with some explanation of myself, for that which I believe colors the words I shall use. I am a Universal Animist, a type whom many find 'quaint' nowadays. As such, I find it unethical to seek CONTROL over any manifestation of the Web. Any manifestation includes literally anything. Animals, plants, mountains, deserts, rivers, spirits, as well as people. When I speak of affinity and influence (that between kindred spirits), many others would use the words such as power and control. I find it possible to wield more energy through friendship and cooperation than through mastery and control. Probably a lot of that is my perception that the energy used for keeping another bound to one's will is not needed when raising power becomes an act of mutual affinity rather than exclusive control.

OK, so much for the intro. Now, the Laws of Magick. There are many systems and classifications of Magickal Laws. Some will, no doubt, disagree with this one. I must credit Isaac Bonewits for the organization of these... I'd like to propose each of 13 Laws, some with corollaries, and discuss them as we go.

RED DEER:

I. THE LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT: the same actions under the same conditions produce the same results. A Law that is generally non-demonstrable. Very few are skilled enough to replicate one of these conditions, much less all three of them simultaneously. Replicating one's actions exactly is difficult enough, but replicating the environment (which includes TIME) is another matter.

It's corollary is THE LAW OF RETURNS: "What one sends out, comes back." Or "What goes around, comes around." The Three-fold Rule is an example of the Law of Returns.

RED DEER:

What y'all think?

PAniteowl:

following right along RD

OutofHope:

what's the point of that law?

CyberDaemon:

So far, i'm right in tune

OutofHope:

what's it matter, I mean?

Herne:

Many happy returns?

Ocean'sEdge:

I'm still with you

Tuatha:

i agree so far

Miss Mary:

Very eloquent way of saying you get what you put out...

Herne:

or pay for

RED DEER:

when you cast similar spells, do you expect similar outcomes OutofHope?

OutofHope:

um, i don't cast spells...

OutofHope:

n/m

RED DEER:

well, then you may well ask what's the point of all these...

RED DEER:

ok...

Warmuth:

there is no point to the law.. it just is....like the law of gravity or the law of evolution

Miss Mary:

OutofHope, have you ever wished for something with all your heart? In a way, you have cast a spell.

Miss Mary:

Oh, well!

RED DEER:

II. THE LAW OF KNOWLEDGE: greater understanding produces greater influence though greater affinity. Greater affinity (kinship) with any manifestation leads to a more powerful response when aid is requested, much is as a good friend is more likely to help you out than a stranger.

Corollary: THE LAW OF SELF-KNOWLEDGE: I think this one is self-explanatory.

Before going on, it's important to point out that the remaining Laws DEPEND upon these two! no questions???

Miss Mary:

Understood- so far.

PAniteowl:

:}

Ocean'sEdge:

no, I'm still with you

fern:

please could you give an example of the last law?

RED DEER:

ok...

Xori:

with you here

RED DEER:

III. THE LAW OF NAMES: having greater knowledge of a manifestation's true and complete name leads to greater affinity and influence.

Colollary: THE LAW OF WORDS OF POWER: having greater knowledge of words of power leads to greater affinity and influence

Warmuth:

are you saying that the more you work with a God or Goddess the more that god or goddess will help you??

Xori:

and is that because you become more familiar with them?

RED DEER:

I'm saying that the more you 'work with' any manifestation of the web, the more affinity you share with it, and the more you two will come to expect of each other...

Warmuth:

or is it because in a way you name it

RED DEER:

No, you don't name manifestations, you must learn their names... just as with people you meet.

Miss Mary:

Perhaps because you are more knowledgeable of that aspect of goddess. But I thought the law of Knowledge was more of like you wouldn't expect a kindergartner to do long term algebra

Nestor:

Red Deer are you hinting at the 'name' as a key to the control or vibration of the subject?

Xori:

you come to understand their ways?

RED DEER:

Am not hinting at all, Nestor...

Warmuth:

thank you, Nestor

CyberDaemon:

you are responsible for the knowledge you have; in ignorance, less is expected? logical

Tuatha:

i don't follow you nestor

RED DEER:

To know a true name is to have affinity... A true name sums all that one is. To have affinity is to have the ability to reasonably request and receive assistance

Warmuth:

a rose by any name would smell as sweet

RED DEER:

If you phrase it as power and control, to know a true name is to have power to control

Tuatha:

i understand now thanx

Xori:

please explain "true name"

CyberDaemon:

but if you ask flower, and not rose...you could get dandelion

Ocean'sEdge:

Shakespeare was wrong on that one I think Warmuth

Xori:

I see - thanks

Warmuth:

no if in your mind your picture was of a rose

RED DEER:

There are many definitions for what a true name is, but the deepest is perhaps simply 'that name which sums up all which something is'. Rather like Jehovah's "I am that I am."

PAniteowl:

comment ... a name conjures a mind picture ... the essence of an entity as you know it

Xori:

ah

Nestor:

but depending how the word 'rose' was vibrated or sounded you can get different varieties of roses --all one species but different varieties

RED DEER:

yes! PA

RED DEER:

agreed Nestor

Warmuth:

true name doesn't mean "my name is Joe"...it is knowing joe's walk, accent, smell, taste, ect.

CyberDaemon:

understood

Xori:

so a true name is how you understand something to be?

eolh tir:

OK

RED DEER:

excellent, Warmuth... and that applies even when Joe is a thunderstorm or a deer

Miss Mary:

Words of power I had always felt aren't really words at all, but the feelings and the images which those words bring about.

Nestor:

the true name is the "vibrational essence of a force"

Sylverhare:

I think the importance of the law lays in defining a target as clearly as possible, whether by name, image, vibration....whatever

Warmuth:

Yes , Lord Nestor

RED DEER:

Shall we go on to a Law which is the basis of much magick?

Tuatha:

could you repeat the law so i may associate it again

Ocean'sEdge:

please

Xori:

yes

eolh tir:

Yes

Miss Mary:

Proceed, Red Deer!

RED DEER:

III. THE LAW OF NAMES: having greater knowledge of a manifestation's true and complete name leads to greater affinity and influence. OK, now on...

Tuatha:

thank you

RED DEER:

IV. THE LAW OF ASSOCIATION: greater common characteristics between two manifestations combined with greater knowledge of the commonalties produces greater affinity and influence.

Corollary 1: THE LAW OF SIMILARITY (sympathetic magic): effects resemble causes.

Corollary 2: THE LAW OF CONTAGION: Two manifestations which have been in contact remain in contact.

Do folks know how these form the basis of much magickal work?

Ocean'sEdge:

ok, now I need you to explain this more in depth

Miss Mary:

Ah... the proverbial 'string around the finger' law!

Xori:

yes Red Deer - can you explain a little more - examples maybe?

RED DEER:

Any one ever heard of Voodoo Dolls?

Ocean'sEdge:

yes

Miss Mary:

No!

Xori:

yes

Midnight:

if you hurt the doll the person connected will also hurt

RED DEER:

they're based on the Law of Contagion... fingernail parings, hair, etc were in contact with the individual the doll is made of... they remain in contact, a magickal channel

Midnight:

sympathetic magick

RED DEER:

RIGHT

Nestor:

the English craft calls them 'poppetts'

Midnight:

its like i take a finger nail cast a healing spell over it

RED DEER:

Also, the Law of Similarity... in your mind you make the poppet so similar to what it represents that they merge

Midnight:

expecting it to be magickally connected to you

RED DEER:

and what you do for the poppet, you do for the original

Ocean'sEdge:

Please explain more about the Law of Association

PAniteowl:

Objects retain the resonance of an item ... like an echo

Midnight:

right

Miss Mary:

So this is all like the charging of talismans- like to make a simple talisman which brings money, you might put it in a box with some money in order to soak up the power....

RED DEER:

or like little pieces of a holograph which hold a complete, but fuzzy, image of the original

RED DEER:

that's an example, Mary

RED DEER:

OK, next

RED DEER:

V. THE LAW OF IDENTIFICATION: complete knowledge = absolute affinity = identity. Wo, there. Wait a minute. In other words, if you can know ALL of something, you can BECOME it. Voila - shapeshifting! (and much, much more, of course {g})

Nestor:

for example --in the Universe no matter which way you go there is a 3 degree Kevin background radiation which is from the echoes of the Big Bang ---well each object has it's history imprinted into it

Xori:

ah

Midnight:

wait

RED DEER:

what comes of this law, folks?

Midnight:

red deer i don't agree

PAniteowl:

empaths use this one frequently Red {g}

RED DEER:

with?

Midnight:

are you saying if someone KNOWS me

RED DEER:

yes, PA

Midnight:

they can become me?

RED DEER:

They can merge with you (if the knowledge is TOTAL) and yes, become you...

PAniteowl:

Yes Midnight .. they can "Know" you ... how you think, feel....etc

Ocean'sEdge:

yes... I see this

Midnight:

or a replica

CyberDaemon:

we can all become one

weaver:

too bad no one ever knows another that much

RED DEER:

The more imperfect the knowledge, the more imperfect the shapeshift

Miss Mary:

It would be extremely difficult to know you completely enough to become you, Midnight!

slvrlady:

you believe this happens on a material level

Midnight:

ok i follow you know

Midnight:

now sorry

RED DEER:

Well, I disagree with that, Mary... because this Law includes the basis of Personification in ritual.

Tuatha:

i have a problem with someone knowing me enough to become me. i can't visualize that.

Nestor:

theoretically yes --but them does anyone ever know someone totally --that is why to maintain the vibration to mask or shapeshift costs so much energy

eolh tir:

I understand

PAniteowl:

RD .. back to 1st law ... people are changeable

RED DEER:

Through divine intervention, we are able to know the Lady and Lord intimately enough to BECOME them in circle.

RED DEER:

Yes, PA?

Ocean'sEdge:

But this is also the source of inherent risk to empaths... ie losing oneself in it....?? yes

PAniteowl:

therefore, it is difficult to recreate exactly at any given moment

RED DEER:

It is possible, OE

Nestor:

yes RD but to keep the manifestation going requires a lot of energy

Sylverhare:

that is why its so important to know oneself OE

Warmuth:

Is it Becoming the god or goddess...so simply becoming the Host??

RED DEER:

not denying that, Nestor... just talking about possibilities!

slvrlady:

do i understand that you liken joining with the lord and lady to shape shifting?

Sylverhare:

if you know yourself you can push away what is not you

PAniteowl:

You can touch for awhile, but maintaining is difficult

weaver:

good pt sylver

PAniteowl:

Some, you really don't want to touch at all {g}

RED DEER:

Exactly, PA... recreating even yourself at a single node of the web is near impossible

RED DEER:

Yes, slvrlady

Tuatha:

i prefer that i share my their or my space for a time,

Nestor:

if the manifestation or its invocation (or creation of the "virbration" is not done correctly --either or both parties could be harmed --that) is why it is truly 'the test of the 3rd degree'

slvrlady:

then is channeling shape shifting?

RED DEER:

However, shape shifting is through one's own actions, whereas Personification is through divine intervention.

Miss Mary:

Is this the basis for astral projection? You know yourself enough to send your essence on?

RED DEER:

Not sure, Mary.

eolh tir:

Good question Mary

RED DEER:

Any one else have an idea?

slvrlady:

well you certainly, shift out of your material shape

Miss Mary:

{Just curious.}

PAniteowl:

Channeling means giving over of your own identity to let another assume precedence

Sojorn:

more or less allowing oneself to let go, marry...

CyberDaemon:

would disagree, Mary. still learning self.. have done many astral flights

eolh tir:

I'm not too sure about astral projection, but I have done it before...

PAniteowl:

Empaths retain their own identity while "reading" another

slvrlady:

but then, isn't that what we do with the lord & lady PA?

weaver:

how do you tell the diff between astral projections and dreams?

Warmuth:

Agreed Nestor

PAniteowl:

'Tis different for me Slvr. Would allow the entrance of the Lady ... none other

eolh tir:

Weaver, you know.

Miss Mary:

But your self is also innate knowledge. I would think that although you are learning your self, your subconscious already knows...

RED DEER:

I think that AP might actually come under the Law of Infinite Manifestations or Infinite Universes

CyberDaemon:

point, Mary

Tuatha:

i have to make an effort to astral project

Sojorn:

true, mary good point...

Tuatha:

like putting on a seat belt

RED DEER:

Mary, Self-Knowledge was a corollary to the Law of Knowledge

PAniteowl:

trust must be primary in the entity which you invite

CyberDaemon:

much experience, tuatha?

slvrlady:

i guess i am at variance with this theory. is not all one?

RED DEER:

To me, yes slvrlady... but it seems many don't operate that way.

PAniteowl:

Nothing has only one aspect Slvr .. some aspects of even the Deities are not something I would want to empathetically absorb

weaver:

so there is no right answer

Warmuth:

entities can be specific facets of the ONE...I don't think I would let Kalli Ma in...even if she is an aspect of the Lady

slvrlady:

if all consciousness is one, one energy is one, etc., then what do we actually shift?

PAniteowl:

You got it Warm ... shudder

slvrlady:

individual thought?

RED DEER:

You guys are getting ahead of me... this stuff is up around Law 12 and 13

Sylverhare:

the essence of being Wicca is to bend, to be able to change your worldview at the drop of a hat, to one that will get you the results you need.

CyberDaemon:

concentration, slvr

PAniteowl:

:} sorry Deer

RED DEER:

{g}

Ocean'sEdge:

{G}

slvrlady:

sorry deer please continue

RED DEER:

VI. THE LAW OF SYNTHESIS (or, the UNION of OPPOSITES): Synthesis of two opposing views of reality, or 2 realities, engenders a third which is more real that either original.

Corollary: THE LAW OF POLARITY: any manifestation is divisible into two antithetical sets of attributes, each of which contain the essence of the other.

Sylverhare:

so it doesn't matter if you don't agree with something totally at this point, as long as you can accept it in circumstances that work

RED DEER:

Any one know a popular symbolic representation of this Law?

Tuatha:

yes, i like this law

Sylverhare:

sorry RD

PAniteowl:

Yin & Yang

Tuatha:

yin yang

RED DEER:

Go people!

Realityman:

The dialectic

LycnthrpsRex:

Yin/Yang principle...harmonious polarity of opposites..

Warmuth:

Positive and negative charged energy

RED DEER:

Lady and Lord?

Tuatha:

we get an a

Realityman:

thesis ---} antithesis ---} synthesis

RED DEER:

OK...

RED DEER:

VII. THE LAW OF BALANCE: Greater balance is required for greater affinity and influence.

Miss Mary:

I had always thought that the Christian faith forgets this law-- that God is not always good and if He governs all things then Satan is a part of Him...

RED DEER:

I think that's self-evident to most on our path.

Nestor:

Red Deer --you seem to be assuming that two polarities will be so unstable as to require a synthesis -- could they not form a stable interacting pair --a binary star like energy system?

RED DEER:

Sorry, Mary... that comment was addressed to my last statement, not to you...

Miss Mary:

I know. We typed at the same time...

RED DEER:

Yes, that can Nestor... but is All One?

Warmuth:

sometimes a synthesis of 2 produces a null

Sojorn:

i believe so, RD

PAniteowl:

I believe the Law is that they create a synthesis .. not actually require one ... it just becomes

Nestor:

but each of the part maintains the separate identify within the whole

RED DEER:

That question reflects a question which has featured prominently in most religious thinking... the question of the One and the Many

Warmuth:

yes

Ocean'sEdge:

Red Deer, regarding balance, this is not a static thing, once achieved it is, but something to which one is always making constant adjustments??

Emmereaude:

Where are we?

RED DEER:

Actually, the corollary doesn't state that Lady and Lord form a unity, but derive from one

Tuatha:

like being on a surf board, one must always balance

slvrlady:

isn't balance always moving to maintain?

Tuatha:

to get where your going

RED DEER:

It addresses DIVISION of something into dissimilar but similar halves

Ocean'sEdge:

Tuatha, that would be my thinking

Tuatha:

{g}

RED DEER:

sounds good Tuatha - and DYNAMIC balance is the point

Sojorn:

yes

RED DEER:

VIII. THE LAW OF INFITITE MANIFESTATIONS: The number of manifestations within the Web is infinite. In other words, we'll never run out of manifestations to experience = things to learn.

Nestor:

well Red Deer I don't think that that is a given if you are really a polytheistic system and not a hidden monotheistic system that falls back to the derivation from the one

LycnthrpsRex:

The Earth itself is an prime example of True Balance being discovered perpetually via the constant and multi-versed striving of all living things to attain that balance...

Nestor:

you are all part of the system yet you are not all one

Tuatha:

like they will never run out of words for song

RED DEER:

Nestor, I do, but the one was NOTHING

Sojorn:

yes, Nestor

Sojorn:

good point

RED DEER:

The one was potential, from which manifestations arose

slvrlady:

the one is nil point

Sojorn:

right

Tuatha:

one earth, many people

kryx:

how can nothing be one?

RED DEER:

much like the day begins with a night

PaleHawk:

I disagree..... the one is a combination of both and can bring you strength from both sides

slvrlady:

from nothing come all

Emmereaude:

In other words - be careful what you work for, for you will receive it and then you have to deal with the consequences, positive or negative.

Nestor:

slvlady -- a null point is not a manifestation but I could see RD's point if the two arose simultaneously and not in sequence

PAniteowl:

Yes Em

slvrlady:

absolutely Em

Emmereaude:

For all things are possible and all things are probable.

slvrlady:

how about born of the same thought nestor?

eolh tir:

True

RED DEER:

Works for me, Nestor... From the Sea of Infinite Potential arose the polarities of the Mother and Father

Sojorn:

It is my belief that the NOTHING is in essence EVERYTHING -- and the two are inseparable, yet at the same time unique facets of the ALL that is

Sylverhare:

LOL, example of infinite manifestation..... the points of view and interpretations of the laws by those in this room

Xori:

a circle

PAniteowl:

LOL

Sojorn:

yes, a circle

Emmereaude:

The light expands.

RED DEER:

OK... Let me throw out the remaining Laws, then discuss all

RED DEER:

IX. THE LAW OF FINITE SENSES: a manifestations (ie, our) ability to perceive limits its ability to know. In other words, we can't see everything.

X. THE LAW OF PRAGMATISM: If it works, it's right.

Nestor:

yes RD -but it has to be a 'timeless' thought or a sequencing will occur - maybe 'in a time that is not a time and a place that is not a place' would fulfill those requirement quite well

RED DEER:

XI. THE LAW OF INFINITE UNIVERSES: As there are infinite manifestations within the web possessed of infinite views of the universe, there are infinite universes.

XII. THE LAW OF TRUE FALSEHOODS: Data exist which contradict your knowledge but which, never-the-less, are functional. Or, If it's a paradox, it's probably true.

OK, now the last one...

XIII. THE LAW OF PERSONIFICATION: All manifestations (including people) live and have personality.

Corollary 1: THE LAW OF INVOCATION: Any manifestation can conjure real entities from within.

Corollary 2: THE LAW OF EVOCATION: A manifestation can conjure real entities from without.

And, for me this is MOST important: If you DISBELIEVE in objective reality, these two corollaries attain identity - A manifestation can conjure up real entities.

Sojorn:

that's true, and I agree RD

Johnny Les:

(hand goes up)

RED DEER:

Johnny Les?

PAniteowl:

Yes RD

Emmereaude:

IX - Red Deer - to me this mean that if we place personal expectations on the working, then we limit the results.

Johnny Les:

What about omniscience?

RED DEER:

that is exactly true

Sojorn:

i believe that Emm

Ocean'sEdge:

Objective reality?? as in linear thinking??

Emmereaude:

Red - you type faster than me - slow down.

RED DEER:

Well, I'm not... Is anyone here? {g}

PAniteowl:

{g}

slvrlady:

in deep thought RD

Johnny Les:

Red?

ZoeFoe1:

{g}

Sojorn:

me to

Ocean'sEdge:

yes I'm trying to keep up

Xori:

{...thinking

Sojorn:

{G}

Emmereaude:

Me {g}

RED DEER:

You asked me about omniscience... I said I'm not (so it's not a factor in what I undertake)

Ocean'sEdge:

that's a mouthful, to absorb

Raavin:

{-----trying to keep up!!!!!!!!!

weaver:

i'm lost too

Sylverhare:

I am but I forget it all of the time{G}

Tuatha:

i am lost

PAniteowl:

OK .. backing up a bit ... many things, brought together create a new entity .. {mob mentality}

slvrlady:

that's a brainful to absorb!!

Johnny Les:

But its a reality, don't you think so?

Midnight:

my brain hurts

CyberDaemon:

thinking back to mistakes i made in my ignorance and finally understanding why what happened, happened

RED DEER:

Sorry, I just wanted it all in so the conversation could branch out...

Ocean'sEdge:

Ok, Red Deer, objective reality??

RED DEER:

{{{Middy}}}

Ocean'sEdge:

are we talking about linear thinking

RED DEER:

Objective Reality is the concept that a single reality which

Johnny Les:

RED?!

RED DEER:

all observers can agree upon the attributes of

Emmereaude:

Well - to jump in - we are all our own worst enemy. We limit ourselves and the Gods with out thoughts and actions.

PAniteowl:

Four part harmony, when perfectly in tune, creates a fifth tone, and this is indeed measurable instrumentally

RED DEER:

Sorry, Johnny, I don't understand your question???

Johnny Les:

OMNISCIENCE IS A VIRTUE!!!!

Emmereaude:

How?

weaver:

I can relate to that PA

slvrlady:

true PA

RED DEER:

Pardon, PA, but it actually produces about 9

Xori:

It sounds like what you're kind of saying Emm is like scientific method - developing a hypothesis limits you're results?

RED DEER:

every tonal pair produces a sympathetic harmony!

CyberDaemon:

omniscience is not possible in a single lifetime

Sojorn:

How can one know all when all is continually growing at an infinite rate, Johnny...

PAniteowl:

sorry RD ... I've only heard the fifth {g}

Tuatha:

define literally omniscience, i am not comfortable with the word

Emmereaude:

PA - you are on my wave length.

Warmuth:

sometimes , I think people over intellectualize Magick

RED DEER:

Yes, Xori... to the extent that your hypothesis is limited by linear, rational thought!

Sojorn:

{G}

Pixelite:

Wait... did I get lost... when did Omniscience get in here?

Sojorn:

good point Warmuth

Xori:

right

Johnny Les:

to be all knowing and all seeing is simply a gift of the very special

PAniteowl:

what I mean is that a joining of energy, creates another energy in and of itself

Emmereaude:

Warmuth - you are so true - magick has to be approach with a sense of wonder and expectation.

slvrlady:

agree Warmuth

Sojorn:

do you have Omniscience, Johnny?

Warmuth:

and sometime a sense of humor

weaver:

PA like conception

PAniteowl:

when working Magick, we bring together those objects which then create another dimension, in which many more variables are possible

RED DEER:

When the Ambiguity went over there, in a box Pixe!

Xori:

but aren't we limited by expectation Emm?

Johnny Les:

I knew what your question was before you asked me!

Sojorn:

{G}

Emmereaude:

Definitely a sense of humor - for the Gods giggle.

Sojorn:

really, Johnny?!

Midnight:

ok johnny what am i thinking now?

Pixelite:

Hey guys... can we get back to the discussion at hand???

RED DEER:

Emm! My Gods belly-flop and ROAR with laughter!

Sylverhare:

really Johnny? what am I wearing?

CyberDaemon:

so why didn't you answer sooner?

Ocean'sEdge:

yes please

Sojorn:

{VBG}

Midnight:

I'm waiting

Emmereaude:

Yes, Xori - expectation in our own wishes limits Us. Not the Gods.

PAniteowl:

Tap Tap Tap ... ahemmmmm

Johnny Les:

I don't think that I can repeat that nor should you utter those words for fear of embarrassment

Midnight:

{---------- tapping foot

Pixelite:

Shall we let RD continue???

Ocean'sEdge:

Can I come out of the blue with something here

Midnight:

wrong!!!!!!!!!!

eolh tir:

Don't pressure him, it is difficult

Xori:

I see what you meant now - thanks Emm

RED DEER:

I'm actually done, Pixe....

Sojorn:

sorry Johnny{S} did not mean to be rude...

slvrlady:

lets get back to the subject?

Ocean'sEdge:

Are children not inherently, not limited to objective reality

RED DEER:

Seems to have provoked some reactions! {g}

Johnny Les:

you are simply lying to yourself if you say that midnight

Xori:

I think so OE

Warmuth:

I don't feel my expectations limit me...hopefully it is a way of controlling the end product

Pixelite:

Oh.... sorry Red... I spent so much time in IM I kind of missed the whole class {G}

Midnight:

wrong again

Emmereaude:

Red - my Gods sometimes take delight in answering me in extremely laughable ways.

Ocean'sEdge:

but we as adults or society breeds that out of them

Midnight:

what's my real name johnny

RED DEER:

NO OE!!! Adults are inherently limited

RED DEER:

to reality... Children are open to EVERYTHING

PAniteowl:

Right Ocean I agree

Johnny Les:

only you and I know the truth midnight

slvrlady:

yes RD

Midnight:

please

RED DEER:

Oops, I misread you OE

weaver:

so then we really seek to be like children in a way

CyberDaemon:

our instruction limits our children

Midnight:

pathetic

Sojorn:

enough with the omniscience, thing{G}

LycnthrpsRex:

Depending on your cosmological/theosophical viewpoints, Ocean... children are limited as soon as they are conceived into a corporeal environment.....however, *beforehand* is different!

weaver:

exactly cyber

Xori:

I don't know about "breeds" OE - but certainly "trains" them out of it

Sylverhare:

I disagree RD, only adults who choose to be are so limited, some of us consciously choose to be limited, and some have no limitations

Ocean'sEdge:

so the younger one, fosters these concepts, the easier they are absorbed and excepted

Pixelite:

Is class over then RD??

Emmereaude:

Amen - Red - we as adults are only re-membering what we inherently knew as children.

Herne:

Oceans Edge, children, at a very young age are conditioned into consensual reality, my HPS remembers setting on a swing when she was four and realizing that she was loosing her

RED DEER:

Sylver, I see it oppositely.... In our culture, only adults who choose NOT to be limited aren't

PAniteowl:

true emm

RED DEER:

Except for post discussion, Pixe!

Herne:

ability to hear the trees talk and to understand their speech'

Tuatha:

well....................

RED DEER:

Thank you VERY much for warding!

Xori:

is it a matter of choice Red deer or is it a matter of the environment into which they are born?

CyberDaemon:

and their "imaginary friends"

Ocean'sEdge:

but Herne if that were fostered, would she have lost it

Pixelite:

{---- sitting back with sigh of relief --- warding can be fast-paced {G}

weaver:

rd, by choosing not to be limited, you're imposing limitations

slvrlady:

it may be a matter of "pre choice" Xori

Nestor:

Thanks for the class Red Deer --I am sure people will have much to think about and discuss

Herne:

Right Emm, re learning

ZoeFoe1:

"imaginary friends" very healthy for a child

Johnny Les:

if you place limitations on yourself you are simply cheating yourself from the richness of life and true experience!!

RED DEER:

Xori, it's our current meems, our sociocultural environment. It forms us, unless we choose to be formed differently

Warmuth:

I was raised Pagan and don't remember having too many limit put on my creativity or consciousness

Emmereaude:

Herne - I understand what your HP was saying - I remember vividly when the fairy people quilt talking to me.

slvrlady:

Red Deer Thank You for this class

PAniteowl:

Well RD .. this is another fine class you've gotten us into {g}

RED DEER:

You're welcome and Thank You, Nestor

Xori:

and how they are raised - if a child were raised in a environment which encourages them.....

Pixelite:

Yes, thanks Red Deer.... I can't wait for you to post the class so I can read it {BG}

Ocean'sEdge:

Thank you friend Red Deer, most enlightening

Xori:

I'm a slow typer - I too thank you Red Deer

CyberDaemon:

Yes, Red Deer, thank you

Raavin:

MP everyone I have to run Thank you Red Deer

RED DEER:

{{{PA}}} Thanks!

Johnny Les:

come on RED answer

eolh tir:

Thank you Red Deer

weaver:

thanks RD

Ocean'sEdge:

yes this one I have to down load and think and rethink

PAniteowl:

Emm ... did they quit talking to you? Want to send them a msg? {g}

LycnthrpsRex:

Was a very healthy and needful chance to review and approach these ideals from new plethora of perspectives...thanks, RD....::nods::

ZoeFoe1:

Thank you Red Deer, it was very enriching

Midnight:

thanks red deer

weaver:

even though i'm still REALLY lost

Herne:

No Oceans Edge, she would not have, posted on "Article Wanted" thread to day about it, No, but in this society impossible not to, conditioning is too strong

Emmereaude:

I guess PA - but it's nice to see a united group tonight.

RED DEER:

Yeah, it felt real good

Tuatha:

Red, thank you for a most informative and thought provoking class.

Herne:

Yeah, where are all the damn fundies?

RED DEER:

{bows to all}

PAniteowl:

truly Emm .. I still set out the dish of treats for them ... and I'm crone

Ocean'sEdge:

Some children, or people are stronger than others, as yet my 7 year old, still has this, but he is a very unusual child

slvrlady:

applause!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sylverhare:

thanx RD

Emmereaude:

Great time RD - thanks for the Treat

eolh tir:

Red Deer, you can be sure to see me at your next class.

RED DEER:

you guys make me blush!

Emmereaude:

PA - I'm not quite crone - 47 and still flowing but almost there/

weaver:

"RED"???

PAniteowl:

How can you tell in the Red?

CyberDaemon:

maybe he has an unusual mother, PA!

Tuatha:

PA, how goes it. any luck planning our trip to Scotland

PAniteowl:

LOL

Herne:

Clap, Clap, Clap, very well presented class young-un, keep reading those books

RED DEER:

Well, I need to head on out...

Daddy 45:

Blessed Be all

Warmuth:

PA...I'm a CIT (Crone in Training)

RED DEER:

Brightest Blessings and Merry Part {{{room}}}