RED DEER:

Are folks about ready to begin?

Viverra:

To begin what?

RED DEER:

Wicca 101

Xori:

Ready here

Ocean's Edge:

Marf, Wicca 101 is about to begin

agathodaimon:

wise witch told me the divine ones lived in trees

Celmac:

set to go

Rowan Berry:

OK Red Deer

Von Ravenn:

Ready

Typo Demon:

{ is in Xori's lap ready for class

agathodaimon:

i am curious about the nature of this

Marfixubus:

what is that 101 thing?

Celmac:

#'s{g}

RED DEER:

Well, Morgaine was planning to teach us on Herbal Magick, but had surprise family visit... so

Rowan Berry:

LOL

agathodaimon:

herbal magic?

StarofDavid:

Can Wicca 101 begin with Nestor/Herne still feuding?

agathodaimon:

please explain

RED DEER:

I thought (this being Yule and all) we might look at the significance of sacrifice...

Feuding in class ---} exclusion

Ocean's Edge:

Exclude without comment still rules?

Typo Demon:

RD i believe its time to read the class rules of conduct....

RED DEER:

Let's review etiquette...

thanks typo

1) The Door Ward holds the right of EXCLUSION WITHOUT COMMENT. Should an exclusion be called, please do NOT talk to or about the excludee until Wicca 101 is completed.

2) Please keep all Blessed Be's, Merry Meet's and Merry Part's in IM until Wicca 101 is completed.

3) Would 1 or 2 who expect to be here for all of Wicca 101 please log as backup. If I am bumped for any reason or lose my logs, I will E-mail you a request to send me your backup log.

Nestor has agreed to ward the door for me...

melilott:

will log

Ocean's Edge:

I will log Red Deer

RED DEER:

thanks mel...and OE...

Well...

let's begin the discussion with the dictionary presentation of our topic...

SACRIFICE - from the Latin sacrificium, a rendering sacred; derived from sacer = sacred and facere = to make.

Now, so much for derivation... on to modern definition

Sacrifice - the offering of anything to a deity as propitiation or homage.

Sacrifice - that which is sacrificed, offered or consecrated to a deity as propitiation or homage.

Sacrifice - a giving up, destroying, permitting injury to, or forgoing of some valued thing

for the sake of something of greater value or having a more pressing claim.

Sacrifice - a selling or giving up of something at less than its supposed value, or at a loss, or the loss incurred.

Now, rather than bore you with virtually identical defs. everyone knows that the same may be applied to the word as a verb.

And, I think for religious purposes, we can delete the fourth definition...

Ocean's Edge:

thank you

RED DEER:

So where does that lead us???

{very long pause} Are we sacrificing this class? {g}

melilott:

the time

Ocean's Edge:

I hope not!

melilott:

for a greater good

Viverra:

We are waiting for you to answer your own question, I think...

RED DEER:

well, you may wait a LONG time {g}

Doctor Hoo:

foresooth

Nestor:

we give of our mental energies to the service of the Gods in study

RED DEER:

What types of sacrifice have various ones of you made?

TheWarMaster:

:: looks around the room::

RED DEER:

yes Nestor...

Musashii:

The sacrificial king gives his life that the land may prosper.

RED DEER:

yes Musashii

What's the point of sacrifice, anyway?

Celmac:

To show your dedication?

RED DEER:

yes, Celmac?

Musashii:

A point of sacrifice is bring about a greater good than by not sacrificing

Celmac:

I'm asking.

RED DEER:

yes, Musashii

Ocean's Edge:

It honours the Goddess, but also ourselves,

RED DEER:

well, yes I agree, Celmac, but now I'd like to know more of your ideas about showing dedication.

Please say more about "honoring the Goddess," OE

Celmac:

In order to get you must first give. In order to find you must lose. The is the way

RED DEER:

Ah, so many times we sacrifice not to give, but to get?

Xori:

Am I way off, or is it like giving something away that you would like to keep for yourself

Ocean's Edge:

In our giving, we say to ourselves , that the Goddess is an important element of our lives

RED DEER:

Well, in most modern terms, yes Xori

yes OE

Rowan Berry:

Would it not have something to do with the recognition that we are part of something bigger than ourselves?

RED DEER:

We recognize all the Lady and Lord have given us, and seek to give in return

Yes Rowan...

What do folks think the primal model of sacrifice to be?

What's Yule all about, anyway?

Musashii:

The return from a sacrifice may be personal but generally it is to promote a greater good for others.

RED DEER:

Yes, Mu

Ocean's Edge:

Self need, over a greater universal need?

WarMage:

To abandon Self to the Great Wheel... the Dance of Life, and know that one is merely a part of the All... to me, that is great sacrifice.

agathodaimon:

sacrifice is a balancing

WarMage:

It is terrifying, but sanctifying...

RED DEER:

And who FIRST made that great sacrifice, WarMage?

agathodaimon:

polarity

WarMage:

First She... then He.

RED DEER:

She gave him up... He died to be reborn...

WarMage:

Yes.

Celmac:

So its like the Taoist theory: In order to get everything you must first give up everything?

Xori:

and to give something up for the greater good is to become part of the wheel

RED DEER:

That's Yule... and the primordial sacrifice.

agathodaimon:

no xori everything is part of the wheel

RED DEER:

Our acts of sacrifice (in terms of giving or giving up) are sympathetic to the Lord's giving up of his life

WarMage:

Horned One,

Lover,

Son,

Leaper in the Corn!

Deep in the Mother Die and be Reborn...

agathodaimon:

and nothing is good or bad

Ocean's Edge:

and that sacrifice allows for the rebirth, and the continuance of the Wheel

RED DEER:

Yes!

I think that often we moderns are so caught up in the BIRTH that we forget it is preceded by the ultimate sacrifice - death

Ocean's Edge:

aye

WarMage:

{smiles, remembering the birth of his two year old son}

Xori:

ah - yes

RED DEER:

the last day, the day outside, the first day (solar calendar)

day is preceded by night

the year begins with the darkening months (lunar calendar)

Musashii:

The Sacrificial King? Consort? Son is a universal idea.

RED DEER:

LIFE begins with DEATH

Life flourishes on Death

WarMage:

Yes... Dumuzi... Quetzalcouatl... Christ... and so on...

RED DEER:

That one may live, another must sacrifice... whether animal or plant

Rowan Berry:

Can anyone say truly where The Wheel Starts and ends?

RED DEER:

So, in giving sacrifice, we also perform sympathetically with what we have received from nature.

LycnthrpsRex:

Can anyone truly agree upon when the day starts, RD?

RED DEER:

The wheel has no beginning nor end, Rowan

agathodaimon:

the nature of a wheel is infinite

RED DEER:

No one has to agree, Rex...

LycnthrpsRex:

Exactly my point, RD...

melilott:

i don't consider death a sacrifice it's just part of the process

RED DEER:

I am discussing sacrifice as I know it...

Rowan Berry:

Yet we talk as if the year / day / life has a start / end.

RED DEER:

I would love some debate on this!

agathodaimon:

war mage

RED DEER:

Perhaps mel, if viewed from the Summerlands, birth is equally a sacrifice...

melilott:

if death is a sacrifice then would not life also be considered a sacrifice?

RED DEER:

{g}

agathodaimon:

of course

melilott:

{G}

WarMage:

It is because we are finite beings and must, in order to understand our multiverse, place finite limits on time... absurd if you think about it...

agathodaimon:

everything involves sacrifice

RED DEER:

But, we are dealing with more recent use of the term... the giving up definitions

WarMage:

Yes, Agatho?

RED DEER:

The derivation is from "To make sacred"

Ocean's Edge:

No Mage, we don't have too, but we do

Rowan Berry:

True WarMage

RED DEER:

Therefore, is not casting a circle a sacrifice?

Or charging an object?

Or sending a cone of power?

Ocean's Edge:

Aye

Xori:

ah - I see

LycnthrpsRex:

Interesting reasoning, RD...I would agree with these semantics..

RED DEER:

My ultimate point...

As I see Paganism NOT as something practiced at specific times in life (ritual, meditation, etc) but as a WAY of life... So I see sacrifice...

We rationally move to it being a specific act or acts, and thus remove it from the everyday!

flying disk:

everything is a way of life to those that are living it

LycnthrpsRex:

Yet, should there indeed be limits placed upon what we can sacrifice, if we are to abide strictly by the technical definition?

Ocean's Edge:

Aye, (gee we did have to wait a LONG time for it){G}

LycnthrpsRex:

{---Devil's advocate {g}

RED DEER:

When we should recognize the multitude of sacrifices that make every day life a divine experience

Well, with the making sacred definition Rex, I'd say there ARE no limits

Life is sacred... That's one of the things we discuss endlessly as Pagans... All of Nature is...

Ocean's Edge:

If we see life itself as sacred, then each moment, each act should be a sacrifice

RED DEER:

We may consciously deal with every waking act a sacred act...

YES OE!

flying disk:

but do we grow through sacrifice or do we grow through service? if it is a joy to give up something is it still a sacrifice then?

RED DEER:

A constant rededication to the Lady and Lord

Ocean's Edge:

It should be a joy to give it

RED DEER:

depends upon which definition of sacrifice you're using, disk

Ocean's Edge:

as we take joy in giving to our friends

LycnthrpsRex:

Hmmm... the hair-thin line between suicide and martyrdom... if taken to a more profound level... the definition of sacrifice at it's most personal...

Ocean's Edge:

so should we see joy in giving to the Lady

RED DEER:

but, the answer is yes either way, only the reasoning is different

flying disk:

and to label something does that not then make it less that it was

Ocean's Edge:

sure it does, it's a matter of how you perceive it

Ocean's Edge:

and a label defines our perception

RED DEER:

Yes, OE... Just as we should see joy in the crossing of another, even as we experience our own grief over our loss of them

Ocean's Edge:

aye

LycnthrpsRex:

BTW, my argument is stemming from the "Sacrificial King" concept that was approached earlier...

Specifically... "Sun / Corn / Oak & Holly / etc"...

RED DEER:

If something is not given joyfully, is it a sacrifice?

Ocean's Edge:

no

RED DEER:

or is it a grudging trade?

LycnthrpsRex:

Nay

melilott:

yes it can still be considered sacrifice

RED DEER:

for something you hope to receive

Ocean's Edge:

not in the "making sacred " definition

Nestor:

I have often stated that the purpose of the Craft is to Serve the Gods --that means that we give to them as our founding fathers put it "Our Live, Our Fortunes, and Our Sacred Honor"

RED DEER:

true, OE... guess I switched definitions in my thinking though

Ocean's Edge:

well tell us, when you're switching from one to the other will ya??

{LOL}

LycnthrpsRex:

No, it is the expected positive reverberations that define the nature of the sacrifice...

RED DEER:

Yes, Nestor... We sacrifice the ego to the greater good (as much as each of us finds possible)

Will try OE {g}

Rex... I believe that is as most view sacrifice, but I personally disagree...

LycnthrpsRex:

Expound, RD..

RED DEER:

The Lady and Lord give me EVERYTHING... What of significance might I give them to get MORE?

flying disk:

service

RED DEER:

Just as I abide the Rede - sending out positive with the belief in three-fold return

LycnthrpsRex:

I disagree... I feel we EARN everything, with assistance with the powers of Nature and the Cosmos....

Typo Demon:

honest devotion RD

melilott:

how did we earn life?

RED DEER:

but sending it for the joy of sending without thought to receiving

Ocean's Edge:

A gift or homage given with the expectation of a return, nullifies the value of the gift given?

RED DEER:

so I see sacrifice, making sacred, as something which brings positive, but which I also do in joy and thankfulness

yes Typo

RED DEER:

We didn't earn it, mel, it's a gift

LycnthrpsRex:

I'm speaking within Life itself, mel... to speak of beforehand leaves much open to cosmological debate and so forth...

flying disk:

we chose it

melilott:

thought so

Ocean's Edge:

Our joy in giving is return enough

RED DEER:

I can't say I've never bartered with Mama and Papa...

LycnthrpsRex:

I would agree with disk, but I would digress... {g}

RED DEER:

"If you'll just let Kathryn's finger heal well, I'll..."

In times of great stress, it comes on almost as an instinctive reaction to potential loss... And though I follow through on such promises, I don't believe them the cause of an outcome. They are the connection of my energy to the Web, and to the outcome

Ocean's Edge:

aye

LycnthrpsRex:

Very "zen", RD..{s}

WarMage:

{smiling at a new application of the term 'World Wide Web'}

Ocean's Edge:

AYE!

RED DEER:

Not referring to WWW, WarMage but the Web of potentiality

WarMage:

I know... it was a joke, Red Deer... :)

RED DEER:

Oh, sorry {g}

WarMage:

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[red deer]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

WarMage:

{blinks goofily at the thought of a macrocosmic Internet}

RED DEER:

I've had quite a few people question me re: what I mean when I discuss the Web lately

WarMage:

I can imagine...

RED DEER:

Lot's of us used to talk of the internet as a technical reproduction of the Web!

Rowan Berry:

Perhaps this should be a Topic.

RED DEER:

An isomorphism

RED DEER:

Perhaps...

RED DEER:

Any one with more comments on sacrifice?.. or questions?

WarMage:

Lady weave your Circle tight

Spin a Web of glowing Light!

Earth and Air and Fire and Water

Bind Us to YOU...

RED DEER:

Well, then...

Thanks for warding, Nestor

Ocean's Edge:

So we see and live sacrifice by both definitions?

Rowan Berry:

If then life, nature and everything is a sacrifice, then is the rituals just some sort of formal recognition of such?

RED DEER:

I strive to do that, OE

WarMage:

I use what we use in Circle... we like to get up close and personal with Mama...

Xori:

I have learned much tonight - thank you

RED DEER:

Yes, to me Rowan

RED DEER:

You are welcome, Xori

WarMage:

These classes are wonderful... so many perspectives!

Nestor:

thank you Red Deer

Musashii:

Is class officially over ??

RED DEER:

Yup...

Ocean's Edge:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{REDDEER}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} thank you, a pleasure as always

RED DEER:

And thank you all for your time!

LycnthrpsRex:

::passing gavel to RD, smiles::

Typo Demon:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Red Deer }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

melilott:

thanks red, great class

Xori:

And thank you for yours Red Deer

Rowan Berry:

Thanks for the class red deer.

muiriath:

thank you Red Deer

WarMage:

Ximopanolti, Tlauamazatzin... Thank you, Red Deer-- in Nahuatl!!!

RED DEER:

War, which is Red Deer?

WarMage:

Tlauamazatzin = Lord Red Deer

RED DEER:

Thanks WarMage!