RED DEER:

Any one else up for a discussion of the purpose and use of RITUAL?

Warmuth:

I'll talk about RITUAL anytime!!

FyreLily:

OK, OK, let's do ritual, then

Cloudburst:

ritual, please

RED DEER:

QUESTION - Is ritual real = magick or just something to prime your subconscious mind???

Cloudburst:

Both, IMHO

FyreLily:

Ritual and magick are two different things to me.

Warmuth:

I believe it is BOTH

FyreLily:

Yes, can be together, but are two different things

melilot:

i think ritual is to prime the mind it alone is not magick

RED DEER:

Some say same, some say different, some say both...What's the answer, and why?

Warmuth:

I think it depends on your definition of Ritual

FyreLily:

Red, I think ritual is definitely the part that primes the mind. Magick is the part that has actual effects

Warmuth:

Ritual does not automatically = Religion to me

melilot:

without the mind the ritual is just a set of movements that become redundant to those who don't know the meaning they hold

lisaM:

very good meli

RED DEER:

but is the ritual necessary?

Warmuth:

Ritual is the framework upon which Magick hangs

melilot:

to the person performing the ritual YES

FyreLily:

It is if it is meaningful to you

RED DEER:

yes warmuth

Warmuth:

But ritual is different to everyone... just as brushing your teeth in the morning is ritual

melilot:

while a ritual might hold no meaning for me that does not mean it isn't a powerful ritual for someone it does hold meaning for

Warmuth:

just the act of deciding to do Magick can be ritual

RED DEER:

but is ritual necessary - either to the human need for something OR to working magick?

Azrael 7:

I think ritual is everything you do from the time you decide to do something, until the actually completion or failure of what's to be done.

melilot:

i think it is needed for human need but is not necessary to work magic

Warmuth:

Ritual is the opening of the Ethereal

RedStar:

ritual is the means....to keep the physical, in direct harmonious interaction with the mental.....thus invoking the spiritual....and by that means transforming energy to the material manifestation of the will.

Warmuth:

Not all who do Magick honor the Gods...but all who do Magick do some sort of Ritual even if it is just a thought

RED DEER:

interesting position redstar

within Wicca, would you maintain that same position Warmuth?

melilot:

not all who do ritual honor the gods warm ritual isn't always done to honor the gods but to focus

Paniteowl:

true Meli

Warmuth:

agree Mel

RED DEER:

I wonder if we're all using the word ritual to mean the same thing?

melilot:

it is also not necessary to do magic to honor the gods any act of respect to the gods or thanks isn't always a "ritual" either

Cloudburst:

RD, I'm pretty sure we're not.

Warmuth:

Ritual is a framework to open the door between this world and the Next ....this is where our work is done

melilot:

i don't think we are red i think that's where a lot of confusion occurs {G}

Paniteowl:

Ritual, IMHO, is the repetitive actions which encourage an emotional or thoughtful state of concentration

RED DEER:

aye Warmuth...

FyreLily:

Yes, PAnite, they don't have to be spiritual or religious in nature just to be rituals

RED DEER:

then, ritual (for Witches) involved the raising of the Circle, the calling of the Quarters, invocation of the Lady &: Lord?

FyreLily:

Includes, yes, but is not defined by

Paniteowl:

Those specific rituals, are for that purpose, yes, RD

melilot:

if i get up every morn and have a cuppa tea before i shower that is a ritual i perform

Warmuth:

For those who use ceremonial Magick...the simple following the directions like a recipe...with out the necessity to believing it...is enough

Cloudburst:

I think RD's trying to establish a working meaning for this discussion

RED DEER:

thanks Cloud... all folk do is talk at each other when they aren't using similar terminology to talk with each other

Paniteowl:

Well, this is Wicca 101, so RD's focus on Ritual, would be my perception also

FyreLily:

For the sake of discussion, i think we can all agree to the basics of circle opening, etc., as being rituals

Warmuth:

So....lets define RITUAL

RED DEER:

OK... if we all agree to that, then let's FOCUS on that...

FyreLily:

Would you agree, Warm?

Warmuth:

yes

RED DEER:

What are the BASIC rituals of Witchcraft?

Cloudburst:

circle casting

RED DEER:

agreed

melilot:

centering one's self would be the first ritual act i would perform

RED DEER:

I'd call that more preparatory for ritual

Azrael 7:

Casting a circle. Raising energy. Grounding energy. Spell casting. Meditation and visualization.

Paniteowl:

Grounding rituals ... for self awareness

FyreLily:

I think circle casting would be the primary ritual

Warmuth:

I think most Wiccans use a framework that consecrates and defines a Sacred Space in which to work

RED DEER:

Can we then agree that - just for this discussion - Raising or Casting the Circle is what we will refer

to as ritual

Azrael 7:

Cleansing and consecrating.

RED DEER:

and NOTHING ELSE?

Paniteowl:

ok

Warmuth:

When I draw a circle with my Sword...I am cutting a hole in this universe and making my Sacred Space be in another plane

Cloudburst:

ok

FyreLily:

Well, and the basics that go with it, RD . . . grounding, sending energy, closing, etc.

ok

RED DEER:

Then, back to the original question... just what is it - a mental construct or a reality?

melilot:

does that include the calling the quarters and everything else or just a discussion on the casting

RedStar:

Ritual....any action or series of actions/reactions....consciously, or unconsciously performed to obtain a focusing action, in order to wholeheartedly, prepare one of activity of any nature.

RED DEER:

for me - raise, call quarters, invoke

Paniteowl:

it is both, RD

FyreLily:

Ok {g}, RD, you've made me change my answer. In the context of ritual as circle, it's reality.

RED DEER:

please expound PA

Cloudburst:

I'd say yes, meli

Warmuth:

My magick is activated in another plane in other to cause reactions in this plane

Cloudburst:

still both{G}

Paniteowl:

when we perform the casting, we bring our emotions and into play

FyreLily:

Agreed, Cloud

melilot:

now if this is not done in a physical action is it still ritual?

Paniteowl:

we create a space within and without our minds

Azrael 7:

I don't think how magick works is all that important. You don't need a detailed diagram of a light switch to turn it on and off.

Warmuth:

As is above is also Below

Cloudburst:

hope so, meli {G}

Paniteowl:

yes, Warm

Cloudburst:

{--learned invisible ritual a while back. Still works

Paniteowl:

We open the portals to both planes of existence and awareness

FyreLily:

Yes, Mel, I tend to lots of what I call "little circles" that are more within me as I go through my day. I don't necessarily think of them always as physically creating the sacred space . . . but the ritual primes me

Paniteowl:

when the two realities come together, another "space" is indeed created, where many more things are possible

Cloudburst:

indeed, Owl

FyreLily:

Yes, PAnite. Actually, I think the physical circles have taught me how to "cast the feeling" inside me, if you will--you might consider that an actual circle inside, you might not . .. doesn't really matter to me {s}

RED DEER:

this all sounds more like Ceremonial Magick to me than a religion!

RedStar:

i still think I defined best.....LOL

Paniteowl:

If we try to define whether it is a physical space, or a mental space, we miss the reality of what happens when both are combined {G}

FyreLily:

Well, RedD, it depends what you do with the ritual/circle!

Warmuth:

When you construct a Circle many times it becomes ingrained within you and so by a simple thought or feeling...you immediately construct that circle again at a seconds notice without the fufu

Paniteowl:

OK, RD ... when we do Ritual circle ... does it not grow beyond the physical space, along with combining our emotions?

FyreLily:

Yes, Warm

Arcadea:

{----thinks the most important part of any ritual is realizing the God and Goddess and the abilities they gave us

RED DEER:

I didn't say any of folks' responses were incorrect... I'm just trying to find the RELIGION in it.

FyreLily:

Thank you, Arc

RED DEER:

We DO make a big deal of the fact that we don't simply practice magick...

thanks Arc

FyreLily:

That is comes from without. . . the power, that is melilot:the religion in it is in the way we live our lives daily in the things we do how we act this is how we bring about the honor of the gifts of the god/dess

Paniteowl:

ok, RD ... I never connected the Circle with anything but an invocation and a worship of the Deities .... hmmmm

Cloudburst:

RD, when I'm *really functional* I'm almost always in circle. Definitely has nothing to do with swordplay{G} (wouldn't THAT be a hoot on the bus?)

Paniteowl:

sorry, RD .. I didn't understand the question {G}

Warmuth:

I think it is important to separate Magick from the Religion as we talk about it...certainly they are entwined in us as Wiccans...but Many who believe the Religion choose not to do Magick

RED DEER:

but we're only talking about it as creating space, making things happen... where's the religion?

melilot:

you could sit in a circle all day giving thanks to them but til you get out into the world and live by the guides they have set for each then your not doing the part of the religion

RedStar:

imho.....RED DEER.....religion, and ritual...though often used together......are still two entirely separate concepts.

RED DEER:

so then, what is ritual about for those who don't do magick???

Warmuth:

Agree RedStar

Paniteowl:

RD .. When I create Circle, it is expressly for honoring the Deities, not for magic {G}

RedStar:

so are we defining...Religion, Ritual, or all of the above?

melilot:

a way to give thanks in a formal manner

FyreLily:

Also, Warm, there are those of us who practice but have different theological ideas than Wiccans. I myself am not Wiccan, but I'll bet our practices are virtually identical in many ways.

Yes, RedStar, it gets tangled, doesn't it? {s}

Warmuth:

My Husband is my High Priest...he does Magick only on RARE occasions

RED DEER:

well, I didn't really set out for a definition, but for a discussion of what it is and what it's for.

Paniteowl:

The differences in paths are becoming apparent here {G}

Cloudburst:

Almost all my daily ritual and small observances are invisible, but I crave big formalities for Sabbats and medium size formalities for my rather rare magicking

melilot:

i think everyone does small acts of magic daily even if they don't know that's what they are doing magic isn't something that is not easily

accessed

FyreLily:

RD, I guess for those who don't do magick, ritual is that priming of the pump to make a connection with the Divine

Warmuth:

All Paths lead to the same Truth...that is why all Magick CAN work

Xori:

I think ritual is rather important in religion, in that it brings physicalness to that which is

transcendent

Paniteowl:

My circle is for worship .. not to ask for something or do "Magick"

RED DEER:

I don't agree PA...

FyreLily:

Know what? I can't separate the two. I'm thinking of a recent circle I cast . . .

Paniteowl:

The ritual itself is an act of concentration and focus, whether it be for communion with the Deities, or to perform a Magick

RED DEER:

even though you don't ask, ritual fulfills a basic human need and therefore promotes mental and physical health

melilot:

for circle : put on your best dress, clean the house spic and span, put out the good china, and light the best candles cause your guests tonight are the wonders of the world

RED DEER:

so magick has happened, and you've gotten something

Paniteowl:

I agree with that RD

FyreLily:

I did it expressly for the purpose of some protection magick for a loved one . . . but by definition, I had to create a circle . . . and by definition, I had to become one with the DivineWarmuth:My Sabbots are strictly for celebration of the 8 Holidays...My Esbots are of Magick...Healing, etc

Cloudburst:

good point RD

Paniteowl:

but I don't look for Magick to happen

Cloudburst:

{{{meli}}} can I quote you?

RED DEER:

interesting... how do we become one with that of which we are?

RED DEER:

just pickin at ya PA... trying to stimulate thought!

Paniteowl:

heheheh

FyreLily:

We become completely aware of our oneness, our connectedness, RD

melilot:

simply by realizing it red most of us try not to remember that part

Cloudburst:

not become one with, RD, remember we are - sometimes takes work{G}

FyreLily:

We are all part of one great, living sea . . . we simply lose our way... We forget {s}

Paniteowl:

I know the magick that "happens" in circle RD .. that is never my prime objective, tho .. but it is always welcome as a "gift" {G}

Warmuth:

Ritual is a way of knowing the certainty of your Magick

RED DEER:

you guys know how semantic I am... when you say "become one with the divine" the language leads me to believe that you weren't beforehand!

melilot:

it's kind of like a teenager realizing that they came out of their mothers womb it's freaks them at first

Cloudburst:

{G}

Elenya:

details, details {g}

Xori:

LOL meli - sure does :)

Paniteowl:

{G} El!!!

RED DEER:

details are what our Craft is composed of milady

melilot:

you can't climb back into the womb but you can give thanks

FyreLily:

RD, I see it more as in focusing that. It's so difficult to move through life in a constant state of perfect awareness of connection with all that is in and around us. The stopping to smell the roses is needed

Warmuth:

Or that your parents actually may have had Sex more than once

Finkorama:

I think we lose parts of ourselves then regain them and become serene like the myth about men and women originally being joined

Paniteowl:

good analogy, Fyre {G}

melilot:

and communing with the god/dess in ritual is the time when this is done

Xori:

indeed Fyre

RED DEER:

I don't disagree at all Fyre... just trying to provoke thought and discussion {G}

Cloudburst:

good, Fyre. But not roses to the exclusion of less fragrant things, perhaps{G} - they're part of it all too. Were you around last year when the BB discussed earthquakes?

Warmuth:

If one stayed alert to these things all the time...we would spontaneously combust

FyreLily:

Buddhists call it "mindfulness." You can learn to take more and more of it with you as you go out into the world . . . but it takes practice . . . and meditation (or in my case, ritual) is the place to find it strongly.

Paniteowl:

Ritual is comforting .. like knowing the right phone number to call when you need help ... 911 Goddess {G}

Cloudburst:

LOL

FyreLily:

Cloud, I wasn't

RED DEER:

excellent point Fyre

melilot:

LOL pa or call mom when you need a lift

Paniteowl:

yep {G}

FyreLily:

Just call me a Buddhist witch, RD {g}

RED DEER:

kewl Fyre

Cloudburst:

worth checking the BB archive for, Fyre

FyreLily:

Hmm. Cloud, I will

Finkorama:

then we sleep to avoid burnout

Cloudburst:

BTW, Fyre, I once founded a trad I called "zen witchcraft"{G}

melilot:

i've got a feeling that ritual like all things will mean different things to each person {G}

Warmuth:

In doing the same Ritual....and the knowing that it works...you relieve yourself of the pressure and let your mind do the work it needs to do

Elenya:

Or thinking back to a particularly significant ritual, PA?

FyreLily:

Absolutely, mel, but I think that as witches, we have much in common, too

Paniteowl:

sure, Mel, just like we all have our own special recipes for Chicken soup {G}

Finkorama:

like every person is different

Paniteowl:

{g} .. how'd ya know, El??

melilot:

true fyre

ROFLMAO pa

melilot:

and they all work just as good pa {G}

RED DEER:

OK, so WHY do I cast a circle before doing other stuff... there must be more reason than that someone taught me that way

Paniteowl:

It feels comfortable to you RD {G}

RED DEER:

and if I can do it all WITHOUT formally casting/raising and what have you, WHY DO I DO IT?

FyreLily:

For both things we've been discussing: (a) prepare the mind and (b) prepare the sacred space

Finkorama:

you open the pathway so that others may listen

Paniteowl:

You like to do it RD

melilot:

to form a sacred area to work in and to form a bearer to the outside forces that would disrupt you

RED DEER:

yes, I do

Elenya:

RD, don't you follow a recipe the same way each time if it works?

RED DEER:

and it prepares my mind

Venia:

to contain and focus the power...

FyreLily:

Ok, here's another thought . . .

RED DEER:

and it prepares the sacred space

Paniteowl:

It is familiar, and comforting to you RD .. and gives you the feeling of control over a specific area of your life

RED DEER:

all of this is right...

Paniteowl:

yep

RED DEER:

AHA!!!

FyreLily:

I feel that when I cast a circle, I connect with the tradition and indeed with every circle that each one of you people right here have cast melilot:why do you put a plug in the bottom of the bath tub before you fill it with water red?

When I cast my circle, I connect with meli

With RED DEER

With Venia

With everyone

RED DEER:

Yes, I tend to stick with (or close too at least) a recipe that works... and what else can one do with a recipe?????????????

FyreLily:

Whether they know it or not ...That's added power

Warmuth:

A Casting of a Circle can be done in the mind...but doing it PHYSICALLY makes it FEEL more a part of reality

Paniteowl:

enjoy it RD ... and pass it around {G}

FyreLily:

And that happens because other people have PHYSICALLY done it.

RED DEER:

HOW ABOUT TEACH IT TO SOMEONE ELSE SO THEY MAY COME TO THE SAME PLACE?

Cloudburst:

Fyre, good point. As well as mental primer coat and definition of space, it's also a connection both to the gods and to the rest of the Craft forever.

FyreLily:

Yes! And share what you've created, too!

Finkorama:

then the place may lose its uniqueness

Elenya:

But what works for you may not work for me

Finkorama:

each has its joys

RED DEER:

Didn't say it had to El... but isn't tradition / ritual what we use for continuity?

Paniteowl:

no, Fink, I don't think we can all totally share the space in our minds ..

FyreLily:

Oh, Elenya, I would agree that our circles are quite different. {g} But our intentions, our joys,

yes, Fink . . . they are the same

RED DEER:

continuity of ourselves with nature and the gods?

Cloudburst:

Finkorama, sometimes you don't want uniqueness. I was alone for Imbolc and wanted to be a whole lot like the place I wasn't - trying to join up with something bigger

RED DEER:of the past with the present? the present with the future?

Warmuth:

Many are Oath-bound by their Tradition not to give up these secrets till one has shown their readiness for such Power

Venia:

To me, a cast circle is a different dimension

entirely...

FyreLily:

Past with present, present with future, connectedness with all that is within the moment

Finkorama:

feel with others to fill the void

RED DEER:

isn't that continuity at the center of Witchcraft?

Elenya:

Aye...

FyreLily:

Thank you, yes

Paniteowl:

sure, RD ... but your place is different than mine, {although I did enjoy seeing it} {G}

FyreLily:

So mote it be {s}

Cloudburst:

I think yes, RD.

Venia:

:) Well said.

Paniteowl:

Hmmmm .. RD .. you just struck a chord here

RED DEER:

yes PA - I've never believed that continuous equals same... that would take all the mystery out of life!

FyreLily:

Good point, RD

Finkorama:

the continuity of the craft forms around us in our place(s)

RED DEER:

continuity is what can LINK all our differences!

Cloudburst:

{--thinks it has nothing to do with teaching someone else my words or mechanics. I'd rather help them find their own

Warmuth:

Wicca IS a Mystery Religion

Paniteowl:

Are you saying that when we try to connect with the process of the past, or specific traditions, we are reconnecting to create a continuity from the past?

Finkorama:

to be whole yes

FyreLily:

Not just the past

RED DEER:

well, that might be PART of what I'm after PA...

FyreLily:

We can't separate time

Elenya:

Aye, Cloud, and by following others lead, they can develop their own

RED DEER:

what I'm saying is this:

Paniteowl:

are we looking backwards toward the "beginnings"?

Cloudburst:

Absolutely, El

RED DEER:

The central theme of Witchcraft is, for me, the interconnectedness of ALL THINGS

Xori:

yes

FyreLily:

And I

Paniteowl:

yes

RED DEER:

we use ritual to bring us into a state of RECOGNIZING that connectedness/continuity

Arcadea:

exactly RD

Cloudburst:

just I wouldn't want to come back to them +10 years and find out they're still using my words - unless they've been published and become scripture, of course{G}

Finkorama:

time is only the placement of objects and order of feelings life and death it might be reversed

FyreLily:

Absolutely

Paniteowl:

yes

RED DEER:

and when others can come to the same place - past present or future - we can recognize and use our connectedness together

FyreLily:

{applause}

Cloudburst:

YES!

FyreLily:

AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE SAME WAY for everyone

Arcadea:

just Like Penn last August!

Paniteowl:

we can all climb onto the Web at the same time

{G}

Warmuth:

All paths lead to the same Truth

FyreLily:

We can all get there by different paths . . . arriving at the same clearing

RED DEER:

YeAAAS PA!

Xori:

right - it's like linking in

Venia:

(feels her consciousness expanding as we speak)

Paniteowl:

YeSSSS!!!

FyreLily:

{{smiling

Finkorama:

we don't bond with rats very well they are different in different places than we

RED DEER:

different paths are fine - think how many different spokes lead into the center of a web... no two just alike

FyreLily:

Awwwww . . . . are we gonna hafta do a group hug, guys? {g}

Elenya:

LOL

Finkorama:

why not

Cloudburst:

We're hitting the reason the FMR *works* for those who "work it"

Paniteowl:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Group}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

FyreLily:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ROOM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Xori:

but they turn the wheel

Elenya:

Aye, Cloud!

Arcadea:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Family}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

melilot:

group hug? i don't do group hugs! i'm anti-hugging

FyreLily:

There goes Arc, saying it best {g}

Xori:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Arcadea}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

RED DEER:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{roomies}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Arcadea:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Meli}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Cloudburst:

{{{{{{I'm not meli so here's one for you like it or not}}}}}}}}}

Paniteowl:

{----------smooches Meli!!!!

Warmuth:

How about a group "cop a feel" mel??

Finkorama:

then you make it harder to arrive at the Truth of Place

Cloudburst:

{{{{oh yeah everybody else to{G}}}}}}

FyreLily:

Good point, Cloud about FMR, I mean

Cloudburst:

{G}

Venia:

{{{{{{d, all of the above}}}}}}}

melilot:

oh all right but it's under protest

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{room}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Paniteowl:

Whenever and wherever I do FMR .. I have all of you pictured with me {G}

Cloudburst:

I think so, Fyre. Circle changes time/space, so does cyberspace

Elenya:

LOL, Meli

melilot:

well warm i'm not against group groups

Paniteowl:

And I know that you are all doing the same ... so there is a connection {G}

Finkorama:

we do have to be individual too or we are forever bored.

Elenya:

Aye, PA....even more since I have faces

Paniteowl:

Yes, El {G}

Cloudburst:

{G}

Finkorama:

we only give heed to those in a different place

Cloudburst:

{--looking forward to having faces, but so far it's working well without

Paniteowl:

I think that those of us who have joined in other than the cyber world, have a bit of an added

advantage in defining our workings {G}

Cloudburst:

{G} except, of course, that I doubt I'll recognize anybody

Finkorama:

a desire to be one but the impossibility of that ever being so

RED DEER:

I am very impressed with the quality of this discussion... hope it was valuable to you all...

FyreLily:

Red, very. Thank YOU

Warmuth:

enjoyed it greatly

Paniteowl:

{g} thanks RD

Venia:

What little I caught of it was great!

Cloudburst:

Glad I came, RD