ViragoWitch:

so... MM and Welcome to Wicca101... Y'all know the rules: behave, blah blah blah... Tonight's topic was an open forum suggested by brother RED DEER....MAGIC: Are you a Witch Without It?

Nestor11:

good question

ViragoWitch:

Shall we start by defining magic? What does "magic" mean to you???

Nestor11:

magic in it most basic form is a matter of energy engineering

ViragoWitch:

wanna expand on that, nestor?

Nestor11:

and when do you cross the line into magic his hard to determine unless you want to say it is the purposeful shaping of that energy towards a goal

Nestor11:

but then that leave us with the question of prayer doesn't it

Nestor11:

is direct prayer like laying of hands --not a form of magic

ViragoWitch:

prayer.... any thoughts?

Nestor11:

or when we ask for the Gods to help us in and enterprise is that not magic

melilot:

since magic is a daily part of life it's self can you be anything without it

RED DEER:

sorry for be late... couldn't get in!

RED DEER:

Y'all were starting?

Cloudburst:

RD, it was leading us into attempted definitions of magic, bigtime

Taliesyn:

how about first defining what majic is; or a least what type this topic is referring to

Nestor11:

RD --i had offered my standard " magic is simply a form of energy engineering"

Jtull:

The first thing is to define what is and what is not Magik, for this i will rely upon wiser opinions that mine

RED DEER:

I'm not teaching...this is open discussion... Y'all define magick

james ensor2:

Well, let's see. I call myself pagan because I follow many of the basic philosophies... respect for nature, Threefold Law, Wiccan Rede, etc... But I rarely take part in the casting of spells

Cloudburst:

Can we agree on a definition for the purpose? Better yet, RD, what were you thinking of as "magic" when you posed the Q?

RED DEER:

that's kinda the point Cloud...

RED DEER:

I know many Witches who claim to be Witches who DON'T use magick...

StarrRayne:

Can we use Starhawk's definition

RED DEER:

That doesn't sound possible to me...

Taliesyn:

I'm much like James on this; druidry and philosophy which dance with majic, but don't seek to control its flow

RED DEER:

Share it Rayne?

Cloudburst:

Refresh us, Starr

StarrRayne:

moment please

Kildeer:

but based on what Nestor was saying, isn't any "prayer" or determined thoughts for action Magic, in a sense??

melilot:

magic is anything that changes the present... therefore a simple smile can be magic depending upon the intent

ViragoWitch:

I'd say yes, Kildeer...

james ensor2:

I think that the energy flows within us anyway... and all of our actions involve this energy, really.

Cloudburst:

oh, meli, good point!

melilot:

too bad it's on the top of my head cloud {G}

RED DEER:

many who are not witches nor who "use magick" smile, however.

Taliesyn:

so melilot, what you're saying is that there are "small majicks" as opposed to "greater majicks" or even esoteric and hermetic majicks

StarrRayne:

The art of changing consciousness at will...the applied science that is based on the understanding of how energy makes patterns and patterns direct energy...Consciousness shapes reality; Reality

melilot:

just because they don't know they are using magic doesn't mean they aren't

ViragoWitch:

ok.... cunningham's definition of magic is: the movement of natural energies, such as personal power, to create needed change. energy exists within all things

StarrRayne:

shapes consciousness

ViragoWitch:

...ourselves, stones, colors, sounds, movements. magic is the process of rousing or building up this energy, giving it purpose, and releasing it.

melilot:

you don't have to be a witch to use magic to be a witch you have to assume responsibility for the use

RED DEER:

but our topic is not who all uses magick, meli, it's whether you can be a witch without using it...

james ensor2:

Agreed meli

melilot:

you said define magic first red {G} i'm only trying to "obey"

Kildeer:

well then, do you have to openly seek magic..(use a spell).. to achieve the desired effect, for it to be considered magic?

StarrRayne:

doesn't witch require witchcraft?

Jtull:

Good definition Meli

Taliesyn:

so our very cognizance of reality is magic, and how we move through it is magic as well?

Cloudburst:

Would say so, Tali. What you were calling "small magics" back there is as real as air.

RED DEER:

OK VW - I agree with Cunningham (would be a fool not to, wouldn't I?) and with Rayne

Nestor11:

well RD -My Brother I have found that the longer I am around the less I use "magic" in the sense of intervention into the natural order or progression of events --but rather tend to use it more sparingly

MASSsedation:

what about the energies that fuel attention, interest, & wonder; what would be the impetus of such energies?

RED DEER:

no meli.... DO YOU HAVE TO USE MAGICK TO BE A WITCH

JTull:

But red you did not want to teach and left it open, so i see nothing wrong with Meli's comments (calm down)

RED DEER:

Not I... I usually get into definitions later

StarrRayne:

I do not believe you can be a "witch" without the "craft"

ViragoWitch:

Well...if you're of the "kitchen witch" variety, than yes, you do. in fact, you use magic in every single act you do. sheer being...living is magic

melilot:

NO YOU DO NOT

Cloudburst:

When I say I don't do magic much, I'm referring to something more ceremonial and tuned to influencing change; ITOH, it's probably more magical when I manage to go with the flow{G}

Kildeer:

but are you talking about magic, as in using spells to achieve an action or effect....or using items such as herbs and plants ...for potions.. to heal, etc...

Nestor11:

well I would suggest that if we are focused on the understanding of the religious aspect of Wicca and try to see the "flow of the universe" in all events --it might be possible to be witch without applying magic

melilot:

i think that is a form of magic kild

Nestor11:

but the probability is that most of us find times and need for the "energy engineering " applications

StarrRayne:

I think being witches we realize that magic is will too

Nestor11:

so theoretically you could be a witch if you didn't do magic but the probability is that you are going to be doing magic in some form

Kildeer:

I do too, that is why I asked... Magic is a way of life...Witch is referred to one who knows the art of such things, so, I think that to be a witch, you must at least know the art, but do not HAVE to practice it

StarrRayne:

At least in directed energy

Taliesyn:

if existence is magic; maybe it is just that witches can see and touch this reality through the universal flow?? Hmmm

JTull:

I think we all alter the flow of energies in all things we do, only when this is done with a purpose is it magik

Cloudburst:

Don't know about anyone else, but for me it IS an application of "energy engineering" to drag myself out of pseudo-reality and see the bigger picture

StarrRayne:

I think that through their awareness they practice magic

Taliesyn:

in that case EVERYONE has the potential for magic, but only those who recognize it can utilize

it...

ViragoWitch:

I am reminded of an illustration from "Dinotopia"- it shows the same view, as perceived by two groups:

1) dinosaurs, children, artists, poets, etc, and 2) the mundane folks

Nestor11:

Taliesyn --I would agree but add that others besides Wicca can sense and touch the flow too

Taliesyn:

but it wouldn't be the defining factor in being a "witch"

Kildeer:

Right Tali.....

Yauna:

what's the defining factor?

Nestor11:

I would agree --but would suggest that the defining factor is a religious one and not the use of magic

Taliesyn:

I like your analogy there VW {grin}

Yauna:

i agree nestor!

james ensor2:

Sorry all, I got booted. I was just going to say that magic requires energy, the same energy that flows throughout the world, whether it's being used in a spell or not... likewise, the laws one should follow in spellwork should also apply to every day life

Cloudburst:

Gets us into the problem of non-Wiccan witches,

Nestor.

Hmmmm

Taliesyn:

the innocent see majic, as do those who delve into their inner-beings like poets and artists

Kildeer:

so then, does the accepting of the fact that you can control those energies define you as a witch??

james ensor2:

Or something like that

Taliesyn:

...and priests even... x-ians use magic even when they refuse to admit it {grin}

StarrRayne:

they have a different name for it that's all

james ensor2:

Well, anyone can use the energy... and everyone does, really. Whether they know it or not is irrelevant

Cloudburst:

Tali, I've seen heavy-duty "prayer circles" at work - quite a tingle there...

StarrRayne:

but when you know what you are doing you have an advantage

Taliesyn:

remember, the very term magic is from magi... which was not Celtic/Druidic/Wiccan; but middle-eastern and in reference to the Djinn and those trained to deal with them

Kildeer:

I agree

Kildeer:

and can focus the power

StarrRayne:

and practice makes perfect

james ensor2:

Yeah, and I know what I could be doing, but I rarely do, because I don't feel that I *have to* perform witchcraft to be a part of the Wiccan faith

RED DEER:

james... do you cast circles?

Cloudburst:

Tali, there's a clue for this in something I've heard about many indigenous languages not having a word for "religion" - maybe we had to borrow a word that meant "magic"{G}

Cloudburst:

(because we lived so much in the magic that it wasn't separate)

Nestor11:

yes RD -that is true --casting the Circle is indeed a magical act

RED DEER:

aye cloud

james ensor2:

I've only done two spells in my life, both were really small helpful spells for friends... I've casted one circle in my life, and I performed a loose ritual with a few friends

Taliesyn:

all right cloud; glad someone picked up on that {grin}

Cloudburst:

{G}

RED DEER:

so, unless folk agreed on an answer while i was booted, I'd still like to know whether you can be a Witch without using Magick

Kildeer:

I don't think so......

StarrRayne:

I think that we've decided that there are many forms of "magic"

james ensor2:

But I emphasize the philosophy of Wicca in every day living, rather than in ceremonial witchcraft... it fits into my life better... and I still give off positive energy with directing it through a spell

Taliesyn:

so what everyone is saying is that (1) magic is a universal energy which everyone can access to either a greater or lesser extent based upon their practice of religion/mysticism

ViragoWitch:

RD- i don't think we did...i think we're still talking in circles.....

james ensor2:

Talie... exactly

RED DEER:

OK Rayne... but can you be a Witch without purposefully using any of them?

melilot:

i think you can't be a witch without using magic but not because it is part of being a witch

Nestor11:

yes theoretically y you could RED DEER but it would be very difficult for you to practice your faith in any form of ritualized manner including prayers

Nestor11:

or even without casting a circle

RED DEER:

so Nestor, based on that response I'd say that in reality, you CAN'T

StarrRayne:

I think that if you are Wiccan, your thoughts contain magic, positive energy

melilot:

i think being a witch makes you aware of using magic

StarrRayne:

I agree Mel

RED DEER:

interesting answer meli... care to elucidate?

Cloudburst:

Nestor, I've had the experience of trying to "retire", and I think during that time I was still Wiccan - since I was consciously trying NOT to move energy couldn't call myself a Witch,

melilot:

as soon as i look that word up in my dictionary red {EG}

Kildeer:

just knowing it, and being aware of it.. you use it regardless of whether you mean to or not..

Nestor11:

well since the potential exist for it to be a total understanding and non-intervention of the flow of the Universe --a witch could exist without using magic --but for practical purposes I don't see how that could be done

RED DEER:

"say more"

Cloudburst:

but I was never able to stop sensing...

Taliesyn:

and (2) Witches all practice magic because they exist; so therefore, they cannot exist in any forms without magic because magic isn't what makes them witches, their philosophy is

Arcadea:

I think being a witch makes you more aware of everything, magickal or otherwise

Cloudburst:

I'd go with that, Arc

melilot:

people do magic without realizing it most witch's are able to see that they are doing it i'm not talking ritual magic but daily

Arcadea:

right Mel, to me, magic become a part of our actions, not something we do but what we are

RED DEER:

Cloud - interesting. I know of Witches who aren't Wiccan, you were saying you can be Wiccan without being a Witch?

melilot:

if intent and focus are there magic is the usual outcome

WitchWa:

{G}, magic is , to me a focused thought of a goal

Cloudburst:

In my trad of origin you can, RD - assumption is that "witch" is a word that applies to initiates, and lots of people aren't headed for clergy...

Taliesyn:

I studied majic long before I ever studied druidry; and philosophy prior to that... and we won't even mention mythology {grin}... anyone who loves knowledge runs into majic eventually....

Cloudburst:

but what I was saying, I think, is that I couldn't stop believing or sensing, ergo still Wiccan, even though I was NOT spelling or any such, ergo not Witch

RED DEER:

otay.

StarrRayne:

Maybe magic isn't an act but a lifestyle, it is the way we live and not just what we do?

WitchWa:

makes sense Cloud.

Cloudburst:

OTOH, I stopped celebrating Moons but still knew where the moon was{G}

WitchWa:

teehee cloud

Cloudburst:

{VBG}

RED DEER:

well, if ritual becomes truly internalized, so that one can do it with the simplest of thoughts (assuming you're GOOD at it) could you really stop, Cloud?

StarrRayne:

then it's lifestyle right?

ViragoWitch:

{- is reminded of the "Lord Jesus Christ" prayer from "Frannie & Zooey"

Cloudburst:

I couldn't{G} - and now tell people looking for initiation that they BETTER not plan on ever retiring...

RED DEER:

I don't agree with that Rayne... perhaps Wicca, in addition to being a religion and philosophy is a lifestyle...

WitchWa:

not really. Kinda like breathing, it becomes part of you. That is what makes it so real for Wiccans and all pagans

Cloudburst:

I think you hit it right on the head, Starr

RED DEER:

Magick is an energy that we weave

StarrRayne:

I said it's a lifestyle

Cloudburst:

in your previous statement

Cloudburst:

"lifestyle" is another one of Those Words, Starr. Try "worldview" instead{G}

WitchWa:

I'm not familiar with that one VW

StarrRayne:

and all the other things in side us

StarrRayne:

You know what I like about this

WitchWa:

what?

StarrRayne:

together we try to improve our knowledge

WitchWa:

yep

Taliesyn:

kind of like in Buddhism... everyone has karma (life majic) and it is best used when one follows Tao; and it is real because of the little virtues.. majic is life, whether we choose to recognize it or not

RED DEER:

works better for me Cloud

Pavek:

Magic is what you make of it and no one else can define what magic is to you.

WitchWa:

gosh, its hard enough to explain my beliefs to other pagans, let alone nonpagans. and I've thought about it too {G}

Cloudburst:

Good Tali

RED DEER:

Well, as a Universal Animist, I must admit that form - as with the divine - magick is everything and everything is magick

WitchWa:

magic has becomes such a part of me and my thinking and feelings, i can no longer separate them easily

WitchWa:

i like that deer

StarrRayne:

our essence is magic

Cloudburst:

I think in educationese at moments like this - life is an integrated curriculum, no subject is truly separate

Cloudburst:

Of course, I've also been known to ask real complicated questions like "can you be a witch and not recycle"...

WitchWa:

i am always amazed that so many of the world's belief systems use & believe in "magic". only a few actively deny it

RED DEER:

kind of a major expansion of Don's "No man is an island"

Taliesyn:

so RD; how would you answer the question of being a witch must mean to use magick; personally, not as the facilitator???

Cloudburst:

It's all connected.

RED DEER:

rofl, Cloud... but, really, CAN YOU?

StarrRayne:

Spoken like a teacher Cloud!

Cloudburst:

{G}

StarrRayne:

recycles to the max!

RED DEER:

I don't think you can be a Witch and not use magick... BUT, I don't limit magick to the casting of spells...

WitchWa:

tell more RD

Cloudburst:

{tries not to consume so much in the first place, but is on a first-name basis with the guys on the truck{G}

StarrRayne:

lol

WitchWa:

lol

StarrRayne:

{knows plastic codes

RED DEER:

To me Being a Witch means being aware of and working with the magickal forces that are part of every moment of life... whether in circle or out of circle

Cloudburst:

yes, RD

Taliesyn:

LOL... I like that RED DEER, to bad Nestor isn't here to get in on this {grin}

StarrRayne:

Being a witch is not just something you pull out when you need it, it is a way of life

Taliesyn:

...wouldn't that apply to true faith in ANY religion Starr??

WitchWa:

but doesn't a well practiced witch sorta set up a mobile energy around themselves all the time ( possibly unknowingly?)

etinArcadia:

At the risk of making myself unwelcome, what do witches think of men?

StarrRayne:

It is suppose to be that way Tal

melilot:

lifestyle of the witch and shaman starr

Taliesyn:

we've missed you Nestor {grin}

RED DEER:

aye Rayne

Nestor11:

BB --just got booted and have a "xian" of a time getting back on

StarrRayne:

I like men very much Arc

WitchWa:

love em, I like the male energy as a balance. Its not fair to exclude men as a pay back for 2000 yrs of BS

melilot:

i think men are fun etin

StarrRayne:

lol

ViragoWitch:

ask meli...

RED DEER:

you assume that all witches are women, etin?

etinArcadia:

Do you think we are less spiritual?

Cloudburst:

I like an all-woman circle now and then, but think the universe is basically coed...{G}

melilot:

witch we don't need to pay them back we are just as responsible for their actions as they were we let it happen

StarrRayne:

no

Nestor11:

well ladies please remember the effect of the HP removing the coven sword from the altar (nuff said)

WitchWa:

we as men or as women?

RED DEER:

rofl

Taliesyn:

lol Nestor

ViragoWitch:

Nestor- not to be confused with the effect of charging a sword on a mountaintop during a thunderstorm?

Arcadea:

I remember Nes {g}

WitchWa:

shocking!!

Nestor11:

LOL --now that was a really charged blade

RED DEER:

I think men are fun too... but then, I am one {G}

james ensor2:

I can't help what men have done in the past... I'm ashamed, to a certain extent, but oh well. I'm not an a**hole, so don't blame me

WitchWa:

was it a singing blade?

melilot:

your one of the reasons i think men are fun red {EG}

Nestor11:

no just a smokin' one

RED DEER:

roflmaostic Nestor

StarrRayne:

we digress

Pavek:

I'm an a**hole, I'm a guy, we've been screwing things up for so long, why stop when we're on a roll?

WitchWa:

James I cant hold any responsible for what their silly ancestors did. What matters is your actions and beliefs

WitchWa:

haha Pavek

WitchWa:

ah the ebb and flow of the pagan mind

RED DEER:

thanks sis

StarrRayne:

Pavek you're an a**hole, I'm a b*tch...life goes on

Pavek:

bah, recapture your sense of humor =)

WitchWa:

but practice makes a good one {G}

ViragoWitch:

falls out of attic:

when did we switch our topic to the war between the sexes?

Nestor11:

hmm --silence is sometimes so enlightening

melilot:

pavek your a moron i'm high queen b*tch deal with it {G}

StarrRayne:

lol

james ensor2:

VW... Was there ever a specific topic

StarrRayne:

yes

WitchWa:

VW, some asked if we like men

Nestor11:

yes

ViragoWitch:

I saw that......

RED DEER:

We are done with the class discussion?

etinArcadia:

It was my fault i'm sorry Virago.

WitchWa:

no just digressed

StarrRayne:

we experienced a slight digression after that

ViragoWitch:

no problem, etin

Nestor11:

well WitchWa -- I prefer women but then I just happen to be a man and a Wiccan!

Cloudburst:

RD, I don't think we're ever going to be done with THIS discussion{G}

ViragoWitch:

LOL Nestor.... I don't think anyone would ever mistake you for a homosexual

melilot:

as with most cloud {G} ain't it great

WitchWa:

good combination Nes

StarrRayne:

there was and now.....

Nestor11:

LOL VW-- nope to much of a trail left behind

Cloudburst:

OTOH, I personally have to go pack if I think I'm going to be a celebrated author by nightfall tomorrow and not just another car on the freeway...{G}

Taliesyn:

melilot and VW... think Pavek knows of your second favorite pastime {grin}... male bashing???

Nestor11:

Congrats Cloud!!!

RED DEER:

OK, It's officially OVER {G}

Cloudburst:

Thanks, dollink. It's going to be fun, I think

Taliesyn:

congrats cloud

ViragoWitch:

and congrats, cloud

Nestor11:

Ding Ding Ding --It Over! It All Over here at the Pagan/Wiccan Municipal Arena