Red Deer:

OK folks... MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION?

LadyGrnEyess:

welcome back VW

Solstice:

Got some insense and candles..

KK Hill:

serves ya right

melilot:

what little i have red

Cloudburst:

yup

ViragoWitch:

always, RD

KK Hill:

lol

PAniteowl:

awww ... it's ok VW ... you'll feel better in the morning

STAR GIRL1:

yes you may red deer

PAniteowl:

yes Deer!

Arcadea:

nah, she really spilt her drink, right VW

KK Hill:

hit it red

LadyGrnEyess:

you have my attention Red Dear

Red Deer:

First, my old favorite, ETIQUETTE

LadyGrnEyess:

drum roll

Red Deer:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

melilot:

i hate etiquette

Red Deer:

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

melilot:

<------------loggin

PAniteowl:

logging

ViragoWitch:

<- loggin

Red Deer:

I'll ward and 5) With that, I pass the besom

to ME!

Mattie xCPMx:

<

Red Deer:

thanks loggers... endangered owls would be proud of you

PAniteowl:

heheheh

Cloudburst:

melilot:

geez reds playing with besoms again

Red Deer:

Tonight I'd like to examine our attitudes about the Burning Times.

STAR GIRL1:

they are bad

Red Deer:

"cause I'm a very good Witch meli"

But, I'm not interested in the History... we've all read it, heard it...

STAR GIRL1:

i know deer

ViragoWitch:

How timely.. we were discussing this at dinner tonight!

Red Deer:

I'm more interested in people's attitudes about

melilot:

it's over stop crying about it and start working toward a better world where something like that can not be repeated

Red Deer:

kewl VW

So, one attitude is crying about it meli?

LadyGrnEyess:

afk...brb

PAniteowl:

yep RD .. Meli is right

STAR GIRL1:

history repats its self ss better learn how to stop it from the past

melilot:

i hear so many cry about what happen and what the xians did to "us" i'm sick of it use that energy to change laws and outlook instead

Red Deer:

excellent point meli...

so what we have as important so far is

stop crying about it

melilot:

most of the buring times was about land and money witchcraft was just the ruse

LadyGrnEyess:

back

Solstice:

Well, I believe that it happened, and we are all more enlightened from it, but I also believe it is VERY important to show Christianity a positive attitude..

Red Deer:

prevent it from happening again

Mattie xCPMx:

Um... let's see... I like Christians to be aware of the hell they caused us... but it's not their fault directly... things were very different back then

Red Deer:

use your energy better

PAniteowl:

yes RD

Windaly xx:

agreed meli..time to move on...respect those before us..honor their memory..and try to make sure it never happens again

Red Deer:

but I'm not hearing EMOTIONS

PAniteowl:

may I RD?

Red Deer:

sad = crying, perhaps...

Red Deer:

yes PA?

Cloudburst:

To me making sure it never happens again means to ANYONE - we belong in work against all kinds of intolerance

melilot:

mattie make the xian's aware of what their ancestors and ours were money hungry murders they already know that

PAniteowl:

the Burning times are with us

Red Deer:

agreed PA

PAniteowl:

always will be BUT

STAR GIRL1:

here is an emotion it was very veyr bad (tears running)

ViragoWitch:

I have to agree, Cloud. I classify the Holocaust, or ethnic cleansing, as "Burning Times"

PAniteowl:

we can work together to insure we are not the victims we once were

Cloudburst:

emotions.....my attitude is skewed - just finished rereading THE HEART OF THE FIRE

PAniteowl:

Pagan, or Heather no longer means "hicks" and we are not the uneducated rabble of the country. We know how to work within this society

melilot:

most are highly educated pa

Cloudburst:

Thanx, VW - it's NOT just about "us"

PAniteowl:

now, do we know how to work together???

STAR GIRL1:

i liv in new york i aint no hick

Windaly xx:

and we are not Satanists killing and pillaging for our sacrificial altars!!!!

Cloudburst:

Hooeee, Owl! Good point!

melilot:

where you live does not determine if you are a "hick" star you mental outlook does

Mattie xCPMx:

Look at it this way... my ancestors, shit, my parents, are Xian... I'm the first person from either side of my family to follow paganism

Red Deer:

what emotion do you - in reading this room - think goes with the most common reaction to even the mention of the Burning Times to a Witch?

PAniteowl:

We have to clean up our own back yard first RD... but we have to go forward

melilot:

ANGER!

PAniteowl:

ANGER!!

ViragoWitch:

RD- I'd say a combination of anger & fear

Cloudburst:

bingo, VW

Mattie xCPMx:

{Disgust, confusion}

Windaly xx:

anger and trepidition

PAniteowl:

No, VW ... I am past fear

Solstice:

The thing that bothers me is that even though the burning times are over, I still have my own personal struggle with-in a Christian family, and Christian Society..

ViragoWitch:

disgust works, too

Solstice:

A Christian oriented world..

Red Deer:

meli and PA - that sure rings true to me...

Windaly xx:

Yes Sol..here too

Red Deer:

and other answers too

Arcadea:

for me, it's mistrust

melilot:

i'm more sure that it won't be repeated because i work daily to make sure vw

Red Deer:

but OVER AND OVER when it comes up, what I hear from Witches is ANGER

PAniteowl:

yes RD .. many of the Solitaires are of like mind in that respect

Solstice:

My parents are both Christians, and they look at me with some kind of fear, or sadness, as if I'm doing something bad!!

Windaly xx:

Sometimes I wonder when the phone will ring...with harrassment ..words or threats..its happened to my firneds

Red Deer:

Now, I'd like to turn the conversation in an entirely diff direction for a moment

ViragoWitch:

ok....

melilot:

the best weapon we have against a repeat is ourselfs how we intermingle daily with others how we change the opinions of others

PAniteowl:

go ahead

Cloudburst:

ok

Red Deer:

We believe in the Threefold Law?

Solstice:

Yes..

Windaly xx:

yes

LadyGrnEyess:

yes

PAniteowl:

yes

Cloudburst:

yup

Arcadea:

yup

melilot:

i don't believe in the threefold... i know it is a truth

Mattie xCPMx:

NO!

Cloudburst:

good point meli

Mattie xCPMx:

Just kidding

Red Deer:

And to what does the threefold apply?

Mattie xCPMx:

Of course

Everything

Arcadea:

everything

melilot:

what ever you put out comes back threeforce

Windaly xx:

to everyone and thing

Cloudburst:

everything

Red Deer:

OK... to everything

PAniteowl:

our ownership of cause and affect

Red Deer:

and whatever you send out comes back threefold?

melilot:

sometimes more than three

Red Deer:

Now, are emotions something we send out?

Cloudburst:

hoo boy

Arcadea:

good or bad

Windaly xx:

yes

PAniteowl:

yes, RD .. we can heal

LadyGrnEyess:

good point RD

melilot:

yes they are but we can release the emotion or target it toward something

PAniteowl:

yes Mel

melilot:

and i prefer to release the anger to avoid the damage it could cause

Red Deer:

So, when we allow uneditted expression of anger loose? It comes back threefold?

Windaly xx:

I think I see where your heading

PAniteowl:

not unless we target it RD

Cloudburst:

kinda makes you want to watch what you say to the bashers, dunnit?

Solstice:

Yes, because, even though it may not harm another, it does harm us.. All negative thinking harms us..

Red Deer:

would you suggest that the angry reactions we all witness when the Burning Times comes up are UNtargeted???

PAniteowl:

venting is good ... bashing is not!

melilot:

sometimes getting angry is needed to cleanse

PAniteowl:

yes RD... I think so

Red Deer:

I'm not now talking about GETTING angry... I'm talking about our ACTIONS when angry.

You think so PA... targetted or not?

melilot:

i think they are targeted at the ancestors and the times they happened in

Windaly xx:

for every action there is a reaction

Arcadea:

venting is a fact of live, its HOW you vent that matters

Red Deer:

do you expect it feels that way to the person on the receiving end?

PAniteowl:

yes RD .. we get angry, but we don't direct it properly

Red Deer:

OK... I've led you a bit, and most of you see where I'm going...

PAniteowl:

We don't use it to propel ourselves to work towards a goal

Windaly xx:

Nods..when I see or hear something..done to a pagan my first reaction is those damn christians..and its not all those damn christians..

melilot:

i prefer not to direct my anger about the burning times. i prefer to use it to focus me

Red Deer:

But, give me a second to outline my thesis, then let's discuss... OK?

When the Burning Times comes up, Witches get angry.. We accept that anger as "normal". Once we do that, we must justify it and, once we justify it, we feel free to leave it there in the core of our beings, dormant, hiding, but allowed to run wild at those two little words...

melilot:

not on your life red i prefer to use it to make changes

Red Deer:

"Burning Times"

Red Deer:

We castigate Christians... not just those who burned our forebears

Arcadea:

not me Redd, I get scared at the lack of compassion that I am faced with, and wonder what is really going on!

Red Deer:

but also those in the present time with us

ViragoWitch:

me too, Meli

Red Deer:

Thus, we allow that anger to become a part of us, often expressed. BUT THIS IS CONTRADICTORY TO THE FAITH!

melilot:

red i'm more upset with the pagan community's use of the "burning times" as a reason for general hate. we should look to what caused it and how to avoid it

zShAdOw:

Chastise me Red Deer for I am one!!

Red Deer:

YEAS!!!!! meli

ViragoWitch:

Amen, sister..stand and testify

melilot:

anger is not a bad thing red how you use it determines that

Red Deer:

I think we all are shadow

Red Deer:

I'm not trying to point fingers, but to get folk to think

Solstice:

What I believe we do is not really directed towards "Christians" or anyone you "get angry with".. I, for one direct my anger at a "Nothing" identity.. It has all the ignorance in it that I do not like,

Red Deer:

ah, meli...

Solstice:

and it goes there and is released..

melilot:

if anger causes me to change the world to a better place hey it's a damn good tool

Red Deer:

any psych type will tell you anger is an emotion to be experienced and done with, but that is NOT the sort of reaction we're talking about here.

xx kitten:

HI

xx kitten:

ok bye

zShAdOw:

hi

melilot:

i see loosing my temper and anger as two

different things red

Red Deer:

you get angry and done with it when you see a witch burnt

PAniteowl:

back

Red Deer:

BUT hanging on to it centuries later is something else... it is, IMO, travelling down to road to becoming HATE

melilot:

using it as an excuse to hate is what angers me

Red Deer:

righteous anger is reasonable for an y Witch

Red Deer:

HATE is poison to the Craft

Solstice:

I agree..

Cloudburst:

RIGHT ON!!!

PAniteowl:

agree RD

Arcadea:

aye

Warmuth:

anger is one of the easiest emotions to channel into Magick...both positive and negative....it can

be used.

Arcadea:

good point Warmuth

Red Deer:

So, for me at least, the question is "How do we have the anger and be done with it, so that other interests/feelings are behind our actions in this arena?"

PAniteowl:

we learn how to use it RD for a positive change

Red Deer:

You got bumped for a critical piece, PA

PAniteowl:

sorry RD

Solstice:

I am a former Christian, and I find no anger in me towards Christianity.. In the world anything can happen.. It's not always good.. I still use alot of things that the bible says to do in my

Red Deer:

To rephrase, it we have it and are done with it... It's GONE

Solstice:

daily life!

Red Deer:

we CAN'T use it any more

melilot:

i really don't think we "need" to be done with it just focus it toward making sure something like that can not happen again and not focusing it toward the religion used for it's cover

PAniteowl:

hmmmm ... well, saying it's gone, and "feeling" it's gone, are 2 different things, RD

Solstice:

"Turn the other cheek"

Woolph:

MM LadyGrnEyess

Red Deer:

whoa, Solstice

Red Deer:

I never recommended that

PAniteowl:

Yuck, Solstice

Red Deer:

I'll defend my family and myself with whatever it takes

I think you guys are missing my point... perhaps an analogy

Woolph:

What is going on tonight?

Solstice:

It is good to turn the other cheek... Untill it's a matter of defense to loved ones.. Of course..

Red Deer:

If someone attacks me physically, I'll fight back...

PAniteowl:

an old saying my Gram taught me .. "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me"!

melilot:

i don't turn the other cheek just not in my nature

Arcadea:

amen Owl

Woolph:

That is good Red I agree.

Red Deer:

but when it's over, I will NOT go into full battle readiness at the mention of the fight

PAniteowl:

me too, Meli

melilot:

screw me once you be done

Woolph:

lol melilot

Woolph:

MM Rotten

Arcadea:

no second chances

Red Deer:

but, IMO, that is EXACTLY what most of us do when this subject comes up

melilot:

very few arc peoples natures don't change

Woolph:

What subject?

PAniteowl:

hmm .. I don't think so RD ... some are assertive, and some are aggressive .. I like assertive!

Arcadea:

exactly Mel, if s

Cloudburst:

Close, RD - saw this happen in a couple of discussions this year, and I wish I was in those people's coven

melilot:

i don't ask the xian's to love me i force the laws to allow me to procecute them for their actions

Warmuth:

turning your cheek can cause whiplash...I sometimes find it a unhealthy thing to do

Solstice:

But my point is that you should condition yourself to NOT harm.. Some people do get addicted to harming others, even in the craft, and that is because they choose to fight alot..

Cloudburst:

...no, take that back - wish I was their HPs!!!

Arcadea:

they be showing reason for a second chance, than maybe, but me not sticking my neck out

PAniteowl:

Solstice ... defense is good .. offence is not so good .. IMHO

Solstice:

Right.. That's what I'm saying, Owl..

Red Deer:

Cloud, I got lost... what?

Cloudburst:

ref. your statement that most of us seem to go into fighting form whien the sub comes up...

Red Deer:

no, we don't want to be offensive Owl

PAniteowl:

turning the other cheek is not even defensive, Solstice

Red Deer:

aye Cloud

ViragoWitch:

try bathing daily to combat those offensive odors

PAniteowl:

it's being a doormat!

Red Deer:

depends upon how you're able to do it, PA

Woolph:

Why should anyone defend any position if it involves killing or burning it is wrong... love people that is what is good and required....

Red Deer:

Ghandi took back India from the Brits by turning the other cheek

PAniteowl:

defensively, dear

PAniteowl:

no, RD ... a passive refusal is not turning the cheek

Cloudburst:

my experience w/ NV training says a little cheekturning has its place

melilot:

i don't feel the need to strike others as they may strike me but that isn't turning the other cheek if they get out of hand i will use methods i determine to fit the case

Red Deer:

NV Cloud?

Red Deer:

So, it seems I have the minority view?

Woolph:

MM Forfiture

Cloudburst:

non-violence, as in civil disobedience training

Red Deer:

kewl

PAniteowl:

yep Cloud .. that's my understanding

Cloudburst:

not sure minority view about what...?

PAniteowl:

RD???

melilot:

woolph to use the burning times as a reason for hateing xian's is foolish in my mind most xian's of that time knew very little of the true nature of it or the true meaning of their own religion

Woolph:

Why attack anyone... even when attacked one bad act does not make another good....

Windaly xx:

I agree with you Red'

PAniteowl:

ok, RD .. please explain .. I seem to have missed your meaning

melilot:

we still love you red

Red Deer:

Well, I'm arguing that the anger and, for some, hatred is entirely counterproductive - philosophically AND magickally and that we need to learn to RELEASE it (so it is GONE from us)

Warmuth:

I am not christian and never have been...I don't turn the cheek...that is a Christian idea....I analize my options and go foreward!!!

PAniteowl:

RD .. Anger is one thing .. hatred is another

Red Deer:

but I hear folk talking back about using it appropriately - therefore saying

Azrael 7:

Anger is always counterproductive. It's only the angry person that thinks he's getting somewhere.

Red Deer:

it's OK to keep and use

Woolph:

MM Mattie

Woolph:

I agree Azrael

Woolph:

MM SereneMyst

SereneMyst:

MM

PAniteowl:

using Anger, as a driving force .. but hatred is a draining force, therefore is not useful .. IMHO

Woolph:

I like the name Serene

Solstice:

Anger should be expelled, but also anger acts to strengthen and prepare some for harder times..

Red Deer:

I believe that the first, when nurtured, leads to the second PA

Cloudburst:

I want it gone - feeling AWAY, energy available forother uses

melilot:

anger can be a very useful tool for focus as long as you do not allow it to blind you i prefer to use my anger to make changes instead of breeding hate

Warmuth:

I disagree..Azrael....anger can be rightous indignation...and that is not counterproductive!!

Azrael 7:

But the point shouldn't be to harden yourself. Need to remain flexible and open. not rigid.

PAniteowl:

oh ... no RD .. I don't think that at all!! .. hmmmm...

Woolph:

sometimes solstice but angre can cause hurt to onesself.....

Forfiture:

Anger, in the sense that you're using it (for motivation) is also an intergral part of the "fear/flight" response.

Arcadea:

Red, I can HATE the effect of something, but that does not mean I can't use that Hate to counteract the effect

ViragoWitch:

Ok..so..we seem to have differing views on whether anger = hatred

Cloudburst:

meli, when I need to use it, I need it to be something else

James MM:

ok a couple weeks ago i asked some questions and was told that i needed to learn more before asking them so i have read your BB and returned with only one question hope you have an answer

Azrael 7:

When you get angry, you begin closing yourself off to possibilities, that go against the anger, and accept only things that sooth it.

Red Deer:

FOLKS

Solstice:

Yes it can, but also being over whelmed can also cause self destruction..

Woolph:

hate is a awful word VW

Red Deer:

we aren't even using the word ANGER in the same way...

Cloudburst:

We probably do, James, but class is still in

PAniteowl:

heheheh ... here we go again

ViragoWitch:

::buckles seat belt::

melilot:

when i become angry about child abuse and use that anger to change laws anger has been a very good tool

James MM:

did the ancient pagans and wiccans believe thewir gods to be living beings ?or in other words immortals ?

Woolph:

Why HATE anyone...... does not accomplish anything....

Red Deer:

was that intended to ROFL my feathersOwl?

Warmuth:

AZ..I disagree...It depends in what you do with that anger

Azrael 7:

In that case melilot, sympathy towards children, rather than anger against the offenders, is more useful.

Red Deer:

There is only ONE appropriate way to "USE" anger

melilot:

i didn't say i felt anger at the offenders i feel anger at the act

PAniteowl:

ok .. Anger = a strong feeling of sorrow or regret or emotional bereavement. ... Hate = A strong emotional direction of negative energy

Arcadea:

not so Az, sympathy is not going to stop the offender

PAniteowl:

that's my view, RD

melilot:

in your opinion red

ViragoWitch:

Thanks, Owl

Red Deer:

well, that statement was as a Mental Health Professional, not "just" a Witch

James MM:

thanks anyway... bye

Red Deer:

and PA - I don't equate anger with sorrow or regret at all

Solstice:

Me neither..

melilot:

still only an opinion red mental health profession has it's own view of a lot of things

Red Deer:

to me, it is your primal response to anything that harms you or threatens to harm you

Warmuth:

I don't equate anger with Hate either

ViragoWitch:

Nor do I, Warmuth

PAniteowl:

me neither Warm

Red Deer:

where does hate come from?

Solstice:

Any discussion concerning anger is going to be opinion..

Red Deer:

BTW, I never equated them...

melilot:

hate is the feeling i get for slimey green veggies

PAniteowl:

Anger, to me, is a personal, internal emotion, or reaction. Hate is a strongly positive "Negative" force ... does that sound weird?

Azrael 7:

I think to do things out of anger, is the wrong motive.

Red Deer:

yes

melilot:

your opinion az i disagree

STAR GIRL1:

never let anger get the better of you

PAniteowl:

yes to who, RD?

Cloudburst:

Owl, I think I know exactly what you mean

melilot:

don't let anger use you star you use it

Red Deer:

you PA

Solstice:

Where is this going??

Woolph:

I agree Star

EVENT Host:

MM all...

PAniteowl:

oh ...

Warmuth:

I agree that anger is a very primal emotion...and as a primal emotion it is easily used....but first we have to divide and recognize it from other emotion we feel at the same time

Woolph:

I agree Azrael

Woolph:

Anger is wrong it hurts the soul and the man... it does not do any good at all and helps no one.....

MaCkDoGG:

i use anger on other people

Red Deer:

anger is not wrong... it simply is woolph

melilot:

no emotion can be "wrong" woolph only the uses of it

melilot:

love can hurt more than anger ever can

BlueDenim:

anger itself is neither good nor bad but things you do because of it can be good as well as bad...

Sigmarachnar:

anger and hate are powerful and some may even use them but most become controlled by it, to control hate you must hold it at a distance

Warmuth:

I disagree...HATE is wrong...anger can be justified..it is human

Woolph:

you only get angry if one is threatened...

MaCkDoGG:

anger is only good if u know how to use it

ViragoWitch:

ok...let's all take a deep breath...and really focus on what everyone else is saying....

Red Deer:

agreed Sig

MaCkDoGG:

nothing that must be justified is good anything not good is bad

melilot:

why don't we look toward what actions we can take to make the change of another burning time nul and void?

Woolph:

anger is not good period.... and all who have lived by it know what I am saying..

melilot:

a discussion of anger isn't going to do us much good

Woolph:

I agree Melilot

MaCkDoGG:

i live by it...i have no idea wut u r sayin

Sara is hot:

Right on Mel...oops opened my mouth

Warmuth:

I disagree again.....I justify all acts of Magick...that is how I take full responsibility for them!!

ViragoWitch:

good call, Meli

Sigmarachnar:

is everything that is not good, bad, what happened to neutral

Red Deer:

GOOD QUESTION meli

MaCkDoGG:

nuetral doesnt exsist

melilot:

just focusing my anger to a productive point red

Red Deer:

but, if we don't know what to do with the anger, then we can't do what you're asking

Solstice:

Isn't the point of Wicca to spiritually evolve as much as possible??

Woolph:

Why get angry only if something threatens or bothers you does one get angry and why let someone else control how you feel????

Warmuth:

That is why we must learn all we can about everything and most of all about ourselves

melilot:

use the anger to make the changes red will put it to a better use than just general hate

Sara is hot:

wow....meli is a smarty.......

Sara is hot:

:)

Woolph:

one does not have to get angry does not make since....

melilot:

if people have a focus for that anger they tend to release it

Cyd Davion:

meli has always astounded us with her inteligence. meli, Seeks the Moon

ViragoWitch:

::applause for meli the smarty::

melilot:

you all gonna mess up my rep

Solstice:

I know that anger hurts me, and so does hate... I feel alot of our hate is directed towards others ignorance, and that in turn makes us ingorant..

Woolph:

Why get angry if someone does not agree with you???

EVENT Host:

BB & MP all...

Cloudburst:

dang tootin Solstice

Woolph:

so what

Azrael 7:

Getting angry about the previous burning times, won't prevent a second one. Only a self-contented feeling of peace, can help you promote further peace.

Solstice:

You should become friends with the children of your enemy..

Woolph:

i agree solstice

Cloudburst:

oooh, GOOD!

Woolph:

I agree too Azrael

melilot:

hemmmm my anger about it will keep me working toward political changes to make it a non problem

Cyd Davion:

ugg. we are talking about the burning times....

Warmuth:

We must experience ALL emotions so we can recognize them and learn about them

Solstice:

Resurrect the Tree of unity within humanity, don't burn it with ignorance..

Azrael 7:

They do say, you can't prevent war by stocking up on weapons.

PAniteowl:

yep Meli & Warm

Sara is hot:

::falls over at meli's wisdom::

>thud<

melilot:

if i'm self-content about everything i have no motivation

Woolph:

that is true warmuth but please learn.... anger is not good

MaCkDoGG:

question y do u think anger is only negitive and cant be changed to positive

melilot:

and i sure like to be motivated

STAR GIRL1:

IT ALL DEPEND S ON YOU SELF CONFIDENCE LEVEL

melilot:

i don't think anger is either mac

Red Deer:

agreed Warmuth... I've only asked that we choose NOT to hold on to and nurture it

melilot:

it just is how you focus it is what holds the key

Woolph:

anger is not good period it controls the individual and is not rational...

MaCkDoGG:

u dont know me at all

Sigmarachnar:

it all depends on your perspective

Warmuth:

I still disagree....HATE is the baddie...anger can be directed to positive ends...Hate cannot ..Hate is not rational

Red Deer:

I disagree Woolph... in the primal situation, anger is normal and good. When held on to and allowed to fester, it is not good

MaCkDoGG:

ive never been controled

Solstice:

How many people get angry at ignorance? on here?

PAniteowl:

Woolph .. anger is a natural human feeling ... to deny it is very harmful

melilot:

ok so do most of us at least agree we need to either 1. release the anger or 2. focus it productivly

MaCkDoGG:

me

PAniteowl:

yep, Meli

Warmuth:

agreed, Mel

Red Deer:

I agree Warmuth....

Azrael 7:

The reason anger is negative, is because it is the wrong motivation. Anger causes you to react. What seperates us from animals, is our ability to act rather than react.

Sigmarachnar:

yes

Woolph:

sorry but through all my years of experience hate is not good and never has been nor will it ever help the individual......

Red Deer:

but see anger held on to as a problem because it eventually leads to hate towards the one you started off angry with

MaCkDoGG:

HATE IS NOT ANGER IM FULL OF ANGER YET I HATE NO ONE

Cloudburst:

true fact, RD. Also keeps you from dealing with wherever the anger came from

Red Deer:

Az - I don't believe ANYTHING separates us from the animals, but us

PAniteowl:

can we exclude mackdogg yet?

Sara is hot:

The reason hate and anger have their own words is because they are differnt things entirely

melilot:

red to be angry at something that happened does not mean to hate

Solstice:

Ignorance is the life-force of hatred.. Work out your selfishness, and ignorance, and hatred soon disappears..

Woolph:

not so sara they are the same

melilot:

it's how you turn the anger that results in the hate

Warmuth:

Why is that Cloudburst...HATE is the Blockade...not anger

Red Deer:

PA - be my guest

snmman:

seek wisdom and common sense

Woolph:

I agree snmman

Red Deer:

you are NOT listening meli

Warmuth:

Anger can be intelligant...HATE never is

Cloudburst:

anger is secondary to whatever you're mad about - e.g., my kid runs in the street, I'm scared, THEN I'm angry

Red Deer:

I didn't say that anger leads to hate...

RTECH:

yes but you can learn from anger but hate poisons the mind

Red Deer:

I said that anger which is held, fed, nurtured and helped to grow leads to hate

Woolph:

that is not a real anger cloud sorry it is concern

Solstice:

The Goddess and God give us compasion for our ignorance.. Shouldn't we try to do the same to others?

Warmuth:

Agree RTECH

Woolph:

yes red that is true

Red Deer:

aye Sol

melilot:

but you don't choose to see that to focus that anger would not result in that red you see only that it must be released on that i disagree

Woolph:

anger controls the mind as does hate.... we lose control.... not good

ViragoWitch:

No..they're not- anger is displeasure at something and implies a desire to fight back against & change the cause- hate implies a desire to cause harm to the cause-

melilot:

once focused toward a cause anger usually drains

Arcadea:

agreed VW

Warmuth:

I disagree...Anger can be controlled

ViragoWitch:

BTW- the "no they're not" was in reference to the statement that anger and hate being the

same thing

Azrael 7:

We shouldn't be trying to deal with anger, we should be seeking spirituality and harmony. anger just disrupts us from those goals.

Sara is hot:

VW!!!! THE woman!

Woolph:

they lead to one another VW...

Woolph:

I agree Azrael

Red Deer:

if it drains, why is it always there, just waiting for the subject to come up?

Azrael 7:

While you're walking the path of spirituality, when you find anger, it'll lead you off the path, and when you get back, you're still no farther along, because you had to side track to deal with it.

PAniteowl:

whoa RD .. explain please?

Warmuth:

AZ...I live in the real world....face it...anger is everywhere...we can only control our own anger

Cloudburst:

That's the best question, isn't it, RD?

Red Deer:

Az - if you can't deal with it, that's exactly what it does... disrupt your attainment of your goals

Woolph:

hate and anger wait to overcome us if we allow them too.... work for the good and leave them both out... that is all I am saying

PAniteowl:

ahh .. nevermind

Arcadea:

like bubble bubble, toil and trouble RD j/k

Red Deer:

explain which Owl?

melilot:

because instead of making progress about what we can do we sit and discuss anger and i'll feel anger the next time the subjects brought up because we didn't make progress

Azrael 7:

Anger might be everywhere else, but that doesn't mean you have to chase after it. Because it's everywhere else, why do you feel obligated to make it part of you?

Red Deer:

you'll feel anger at our lack of accomplishment or at the fact of the Burning Times meli?

PAniteowl:

because it is, Az ... how we use it or diffuse it is our own personal decision

Warmuth:

As Wiccans..we must live in the REAL world...with one foot in the spiritual...or else exclude yourself from the rest of the human race

melilot:

our use of the burning times to avoid facing the need for action

Red Deer:

anger is part of being human AZ... to understand and actualize yourself, you must understand it...

PAniteowl:

oh .. good point Mel

MASSsedation:

anger is simply the discription of what is supposed a genuine feeling ... not to understand this genuine feeling and the root of it's manifestation(s) is to function in the field of ignorance.

Red Deer:

that doesn't mean that you chase after it and try to maintain it all the time

Woolph:

anger can only exist in our minds and only if we feel threatened be more self asured... and hate will have not part of you..

Sara is hot:

hate and anger..I don't see it being the same at all.I'm angry at someone for black balling me out of my favorite sport.so I used my anger to pump me up to prove I could do it...I'm getting.....

Red Deer:

ah, but that is an entirely different matter meli

Sara is hot:

Scholarship offers again

Azrael 7:

To prevent ourselves from becoming angry, will allow us to think at times when others are blinded.

melilot:

we've discussed anger and have come to the conclusion that it is personal for each let each have their anger or release of it and move on

PAniteowl:

much of the secrecy of the Craft is because of our history .. are you suggesting we be more open?

Woolph:

hate and anger are not good period and all who have really experienced them know...... get rid of them.....

Warmuth:

I think it is time to let the ole "burning Times" rest..but like the Holocost..never let it happen again

ViragoWitch:

this is..without a doubt..the most lively open discussion we've had, yet

Cloudburst:

Red Deer:

I don't agree meli

PAniteowl:

yep, Warm .. I agree

Red Deer:

but, I don't think that Witchcraft allows us to choose "everything"

melilot:

we need to educate the masses about what our religion is about pa as long as we hide in the dark the truth isn't told

PAniteowl:

agree. Mel

Red Deer:

some things are chosen for us regardless, and one is that there are healthy and unhealthy ways to deal with feelings

Sara is hot:

I mean,,, MY ANGER made me try harder! Motivated me to do something positve and get my life back in order!!! It worked too!!

Woolph:

I dont think that was anger that was motivation sara

Red Deer:

agreed Warmuth

Sara is hot:

What?

Red Deer:

and yes, next week is scheduled -

Warmuth:

I think we should educate the public about SOME of the religion...but remember it IS a MYSTERY religion and is NOT for all.

Azrael 7:

That sounds more like determination, not anger.

Sara is hot:

It started as anger, but TURNED POSITIVE

melilot:

one of the best things we can do is show the world we are a viable force to deal with then we have the power to change the laws that might lead to another burning time

PAniteowl:

anger and fear have both been great motivational speakers

Stringmaster:

Calm focus is often the way to succeed

Arcadea:

right Sara, to change the direction of your anger is positive, being open to change is positive

Cloudburst:

I think that's what Woolph was saying, Sara

Woolph:

yes cloud

Arcadea:

And coming into the open is what is going to EDUCATE MEli, I agree wholeheartedly

Sara is hot:

Well, my whole point is it may start as anger, but can be productive

Azrael 7:

When you use fire, eventually, you get burned, no matter how well you think you've got it under control.

Woolph:

do not let anger or hate get hold of you

Red Deer:

Do folks want to continue this discussion in another class?

PAniteowl:

sure, RD

Warmuth:

sure

ViragoWitch:

I think I'm slated for next weekend... if y'all want, I could take a raincheck

Woolph:

agreed Azrael

Red Deer:

Aye Az

melilot:

one thing that all of us could do to start the wave would be to writhe the word pagan on every piece of paper money we get when it is spent it will cause a awakening

Arcadea:

only if no one gets angery RD

Sigmarachnar:

all beings have anger and or hate a differant points, to deny it completely is foolish and will hurt you

Red Deer:

One moment please, VW

snmman:

i am not impressed

Sara is hot:

I am an angry but hateless person

Azrael 7:

I don't think the point is to ignore anger, but rather, surpass it.

Woolph:

sig I hate noone.... ever

Red Deer:

WHEN we follow up - who wants to be discussion facilitator - you've heard my views already?

PAniteowl:

when donating to a favorite cause .. donate in the name of the God/ess you worship

melilot:

not really red i don't think another class on anger would be of any use

Woolph:

yes Azrael control it

Sigmarachnar:

but do you ever get angry

melilot:

good one pa

Warmuth:

but not surpress

Woolph:

under control yes sig....

Red Deer:

NO VOLUNTEERS?

Cloudburst:

/P>

Arcadea:

or continuing the Green ribbon campaign, etc

Red Deer:

week after cloud?

melilot:

YES arc

PAniteowl:

How about a think tank on ways to "improve" our public image

ViragoWitch:

I don't think it would be a good idea to ask me to lead this one, next week

Warmuth:

Very busy with Beltane coming down the pike

Red Deer:

want to lead it one week PA?

melilot:

now that i would think would be constructive pa

Cloudburst:

10th is OK

Woolph:

like others have said if we control it it can become a help to us

PAniteowl:

sure, RD

Arcadea:

I vote for that one Owl

Sigmarachnar:

well to control it you must recognis it and deal with it

Red Deer:

OK- but that's the 11th Cloud

Woolph:

yes that is true sig

Warmuth:

agreed Sig

Cloudburst:

right, RD. What do I know? One the wall it's April!

PAniteowl:

put me on the calendar and let me know, RD

Red Deer:

OK folk, I'm closing the logs... Thanks to all for a lively discussion!