Red Deer:

OK folks... MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION

PAniteowl:

{G} ach tung!!

Nestor11:

it is indeed good to see the honorable learned colleague for 'Christian Wicca" {g}

Red Deer:

I'd like to extend the rules a little bit tonight...and ask that EVERYONE be ESPECIALLY polite

PAniteowl:

ok, Red Deer .. {g}

milt33:

even me?

ArgentFoxII:

LOL Nestor most wise and ancient honored colleague

emeritus LOL

Nestor11:

lol

Red Deer:

This is a topic I recognize will bring MANY emotions and strong opinions forward, so lets remember...

Kildeer:

especially you Milty

Red Deer:

debate the topic and points, don't attack the person, OK?

Nestor11:

{s} :

Targe:

sharpening his dirk :

PAniteowl:

K

ArgentFoxII:

{s}

Red Deer:

now, the usual rules...

Nestor11:

yes Red Deer

Red Deer:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

Red Deer:

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

Kildeer:

It is open for discussion at all times....?

Red Deer:

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

Red Deer:

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

RedStar:

<...sharping his wits......

PAniteowl:

logging

Red Deer:

5) With that, I pass the besom to EVERYONE, for polite, calm, LEARNED discussion

milt33:

OK - Christian witchcraft - what is it?

PAniteowl:

Might I suggest Foxy open the discussion?

ArgentFoxII:

Sure {s}

Nestor11:

yes please do

ArgentFoxII:

Ok to give you a little background:

ArgentFoxII:

I recently posted the question of whether a theoretical

Christian Witch could exist on the BB

Ko Alah T:

I have to be blunt and say that i dont think there's any such thing as Christian Witchcraft, not trying to be rude, just honest

ArgentFoxII:

That is ok {s}

ArgentFoxII:

The examples given in the discussion refer to such groups as early Gnostic Christians who mixed Pagan beliefs and Christianity

Kildeer:

well, to answer that we have to define "witch"....

ArgentFoxII:

As well as modern groups such as Grail Craft Wicca, which practices a mix of wiccan and judeo christian traditions

Ko Alah T:

but mixing creates a group unlike either of its parent groups, doesnt it?

ArgentFoxII:

Perhaps yes

ArgentFoxII:

I am not implying that Christianity take top billing {s}

Ko Alah T:

Even so, the two beliefs contradict one another

ArgentFoxII:

This is all within the realm of the theoretical, except for existent groups

ArgentFoxII:

Well we have discussed some of the contradictions

Ko Alah T:

i still say it's impossible

ArgentFoxII:

First and Foremost the pantheistic, and female/goddess concept

Nestor11:

With all due respect -- the theological and philosophical difference make it impossible and cannot be reconciled

Red Deer:

Ko - rather than start a conversation with "It's impossible", why not let folks make some points...or make points of your own

ArgentFoxII:

the idea that for Catholicism there is Mary the Mother? Lady etc

ArgentFoxII:

and a pantheon of demigods Saints LOL

JTull:

How can you believe in the duality of the divine if you believe in a god of only good?

Nestor11:

but Mary is not consider part of the Trinity of the God head

ArgentFoxII:

some of whom have directly been adapted over from Paganism

ArgentFoxII:

Brigit, Bridgid for example

Nestor11:

she is not part of the monotheistic God

Ko Alah T:

i do believe in a God with both complete male and female characteristics, but as one God

ArgentFoxII:

Ahhh but in this admixture it may not be IMPOSSIBLE that is up to the theoretical crafter of this new faith

PAniteowl:

{---raises hand

ArgentFoxII:

In Grail Quest Wicca Mary is the Mother and Holds Equal Status

PAniteowl:

question?

RUN4THEPRIZE:

<----------has a question

ArgentFoxII:

Go ahead, please

milt33:

<--- Agrees with nestor - it can not be resolved

RedStar:

the problem with theoretics fox is that theoretics tend to be anything but practical application

PAniteowl:

I thought we were discussing Wicca/Christian concept .. or are you broadening to include the "Craft" per se?

Nestor11:

but when the concept of 'salvation by grace of God/Jesus' is position against the traditional Wiccan concept of your working and earning your spiritual growth and development --there is a problem

RedStar:

their is no empirical commonality to neither prove nor disprove the theory, and the application there of.

Ko Alah T:

Christianity 101:

one God, worship no one/nothing else, how can that possibly be integrated into Wicca/witchcraft?

ArgentFoxII:

Ahhh isn't religion grand:

So then everyone will invalidate an existing groups wiccan status as well as christian:

They call themselves ChristoPagans

Ko Alah T:

or vice versa?

HEYYYAmber:

i gotta question.........care if i ask it?

kitten xx:

Ko Alah T:

go 4 it

ArgentFoxII:

they are recognized in the Pagan Guide put out by the Circle Sanctuary, although that is neither here nor there

milt33:

Well isnt a christian one with faith in Jesus as God? I just dont see how to resolve that when they must be monotheistic

PAniteowl:

No, Fox .. but there are many trads within Paganism .. Wiccans believe in the duality of Deity .. Lord & lady together

Kildeer:

Run,, Most of us have.

RedStar:

{---was in all actually a Pentecostal minister in my youth...then I got better...LOL

PAniteowl:

Not all Craft trads follow this dictum, Foxy {g}

Andramada1:

I have a question. May I ask it?

ArgentFoxII:

True but in an admixture that is possible to a degree, LOL

Ko Alah T:

just because someone decides to create a "group" or "religion" does not mean that its precepts are truth

ArgentFoxII:

Yes go ahead I will try to keep up

ArgentFoxII:

That is true but we must be careful not to automatically slam the group, as Wiccan Fundamentalist either?

Nestor11:

I think it is time we accept that there are major irreconcilable differences between the 2 philosophical schools and learn to agree to disagree --not just try to smooth over the philosophical divisions

kitten xx:

can i say something ?

PAniteowl:

agree with Nes

Andramada1:

Okay, Many years ago I was into witchcraft. I was told that was evil, so I stopped. I believe in God but still have interest in witchcraft. Do you think, in your own opinion, I would be a bad Christian because of it?

Red Deer:

I wonder, Nestor, do folk calling themselves Christian Witches succeed at smoothing over ANY differences with EITHER side?

Sadndepre:

Sad is confused.....Wiccans believe you gain a higher spirituality through your own doings, Christians believe a higher spirituality is achieved only though acceptance of Jesus Christ....isn't this a contradiction?

kitten xx:

how many gods do you believe in?

RedStar:

nor dose it mean that their application of energies, magick, etc. will be or are proper. if anything their energies would be so scattered and unfocused, that they would do more harm than good.

Nestor11:

that Andramada is something you as a Christian would have to decide

JTull:

if it is relevant and to the point and not preachy Kitten

milt33:

Andramada - well that wouldn't make you wiccan just cause you did witchcraft

Ko Alah T:

My point is, if i start a religion where everyone worships me, does that make me a deity?

Cloudburst:

Andramada, your brand of Christians would have to answer that, IMO

Red Deer:

that's been part of Nestor's position sad

kitten xx:

ok

PAniteowl:

sad but true Red Deer .... {g}

ArgentFoxII:

Hmmm I understand your point but Voodoo, Santeria, the Gypsy and so many more have to one degree or another managed to come to some kind of Admixture {s}

kitten xx:

can i say something again

ArgentFoxII:

I think we cannot stand in judgment of this theoretical groups or those established

kitten xx:

is pagan and satanic worship the same ?

Nestor11:

yes Argent that is fine for them --but please understand that their chose may work for them --but it does not work for us

Red Deer:

no kitten, it is NOT

Nestor11:

no kitten

PAniteowl:

ok Fox .. and how does the Christian right view Voodoum, Santeria .. etc..??

JTull:

is it that these groups are moderating their views to try and fit in a Christian society?

X player:

kitten run while you still have a chance

kitten xx:

why

ArgentFoxII:

LOL but I am not concerned with the christian right or the political movement per se

Nestor11:

but if you hang around later kitten I will give you a list of books to read to heighten your understanding of us

Ko Alah T:

Isn't the real issue here the concept of absolute truth vs. subjective truth?

Kildeer:

Ko, that could be said of the christian faith as well... there were many religions before it came about with its followers... so...

PAniteowl:

Kitten .. you've been here often enough .. don't be dense,

Sadndepre:

no kitten...traditionally pagan is the term that refers to any religion that is not judeo-christian....

kitten xx:

ok nestor

FyreLily:

Christians indeed "worship" three aspects of the Divine - father, son and holy ghost. For those non-fund Christians who see this as manifestations of the whole Divine, this is not far from the Wiccan concept of Deity.

milt33:

Sad - more specifically pagan=polytheistic

Sadndepre:

their are a thousand such religions...satanism is only one

JTull:

true Lilly

PAniteowl:

ah, Fyre .. "Some" christians worship the trinity .. not all {g}

HEYYYAmber:

can i ask a question please?

ArgentFoxII:

In addition some christians also worship right or wrong saints angels etc a whole virtual pantheon of godlets LOL

ArgentFoxII:

Sure go ahead {s}

Ko Alah T:

Well, if you think about it, the Bible begins with the account of creation itself, how can anything be before that?

PAniteowl:

right Foxy

Red Deer:

something must have been before that Ko

FyreLily:

Owl, although most seem to profess to follow Jesus, it is generally accepted that Jesus is but one aspect on the Christian trinity.

HEYYYAmber:

hello?

milt33:

Fyre - only by trinitarians

JTull:

But in the beginning God refers to himself as WE not I so is there more than one aspect

Nestor11:

I still see that the concept of 'salvation' by some outside power for allegiance to IT -- is a basic difference between the traditional Wiccan having to earn your spiritual growth and reward

HEYYYAmber:

Christianity and Witchcraft are NOT the same thing

milt33:

JTull - that WE can be translated as a formal title

Red Deer:

aye nestor

Ko Alah T:

How could anything have been before the creation of existence?

Kildeer:

Ko, but it is a book, of course it deals with how it believes creation started... it would be telling the story from the middle with no background otherwise....

milt33:

We have kinda concluded that Amber

Ko Alah T:

God transcends time.

ArgentFoxII:

In my universe I do not disallow for different systems and admixtures:

I do not go by the Tenet of the ONE true faith whether that be christian or wiccan {s}

FyreLily:

What I'm saying is that there are those in both Christianity and Wicca who share VERY similar beliefs in multi-manifestations of the Divine.

Red Deer:

A MOMENT PEOPLE...

FyreLily:

The rest is just details.

HEYYYAmber:

witch craft scares me and worries me that there are actually people out there who reject God to go burn incense or whatever the heck they do

ArgentFoxII:

Yes indeed FyreLily!

milt33:

Fyre - you believe in dual divines - not one divine

JTull:

yes the Divine did and the divine cannot be limited in to one aspect

Red Deer:

this is not a time for proselytizing in EITHER direction...there is supposed to be a focused conversation going on here

Kildeer:

Amber, have you studied or even read about the religion, or are you making a blanket statement?

HEYYYAmber:

all you need to do is Open your eyes to Jesus and you will find the answer to life!

milt33:

The wiccan god and goddess are distinct separate entities, no?

kitten xx:

who do you guys think created this earth?

FyreLily:

Not to me personally, milt

HEYYYAmber:

Kildeer.......i have read thank you very much

JTull:

what Amber

HEYYYAmber:

Event..........why can't i speak for myself?

Kildeer:

well, I am sorry.. you sounded like you were making a blanket statement......

kitten xx:

hey can i say something

ArgentFoxII:

The discussion is the possibility of a Christian Witch, whether those two are an oxymoron or paradoxical?

milt33:

So, fyre, there are wiccans with a single divinity?

PAniteowl:

OK ... let's refresh everyone's memory .. this is a class discussion of a serious aspect. ... try exhibiting some measure of respect

Sadndepre:

Amber...witchcraft is much more than burning incense...don't buy into the mass media/societal image of witchcraft

Nestor11:

another point i would raise is the question of you is to be part of the religion --do you take all comers without question or as in the ancient mystery schools from which Wicca is derived should there be qualified testing

JTull:

Yes Milt but that see that god has many aspects

milt33:

True argent - the problem is that the bible speaks against witchcraft so if they are christian meaning they follow Jesus, how could they be a witch? I think thats another issue besides the agreed upon (They cant be reconciled)

kitten xx:

who do you think created this earth?

FyreLily:

Milt, there are as many different kinds of beliefs as there are witches. Many might argue that's not STRICTLY Wicca but rather witchcraft or paganism . . . but yes, there are many witches/pagans with a single deity.

Kildeer:

I believe that Jesus himself might have had the power of witchcraft and only explained it in the terms that he understood to be "divine" to god..

Sadndepre:

I think I have to agree with Milt

Nestor11:

I would agree with the Christians here who say that you can not have it both ways

JTull:

From what Amber

kitten xx:

It was God.

ArgentFoxII:

Ahhh there is the thought that the bible did not mean witches but was mistranslated in the Hebrew and actually the word meant poisoner!

HEYYYAmber:

Witchcraft worships the dead and talks to them, don't they.....now that is scary and i am sorry but my God is much much better than your gods and goddesses

kitten xx:

jesus was not into witchcraft

FyreLily:

Kitten, many hear would have different viewpoints on your question

ArgentFoxII:

Instead of thou shalt not suffer a witch it should have said poisoner

Ko Alah T:

listen, i gotta go, i hope you all seek and find the Truth. You'd agree that we all have a spiritual need, I hope you fill your need with the real Truth.

JTull:

where do/did you get your info Amber?

Annwyn2:

I think it is very specific in Deut....explains quite clearly against most practices we apply to Wicca..and witches

Sadndepre:

Amber...they can say the same thing about Jesus Christ

ArgentFoxII:

It is not about that AMBER,

Annwyn2:

Poisoner is a simplistic approach used by both sides

RedStar:

fox their are many flaws in the translation of the scriptures, plus the fact that they were edited for political correctness of those in power of that time.

HEYYYAmber:

Jesus WAS NOT into witchcraft......he still loves you guys but i really wish you could just open your eyes

FyreLily:

If we go by a looser "definition" of a Christian witch, we might find a more center-line Christian who practices magick much in the way that mystic Christians use meditation, contemplation and prayer

Kildeer:

Kitten, I did not say "he was into it".. I said he had powers of a seer, and therefor gave it divine meanings....

Annwyn2:

in actuality it was NOT just the poisoner aspect but those that followed the old ways...

milt33:

Well that may or may not be regarding OT, but NT explicitly says all forms of sorcery are wrong

Nestor11:

folks I think we are getting lost in what our Christian neighbors are saying instead of focusing on what the pagans and our community feel and thinks of this issue!!

Annwyn2:

More specifically Goddess

kitten xx:

im me ok marantha

FyreLily:

Thanks, Nestor

RedStar:

what burns me is when so called "Well educated" Christians can not see them their selves....

PAniteowl:

yep Nes

JTull:

their are shared ideas in Xtanity and Wicca, quite a lot but to be both does not seem to be possible

FyreLily:

Tull, I would submit that to be BOTH is impossible to be a MIXTURE is quite feasible

Kildeer:

Now, I thought this was supposed to be a civil debate...?????

Red Deer:

what do folk think of Fyre's point?

milt33:

Yeah JTull well the problem is we Christians believe the bible to be true generally (at least mostly) and do not have the ability to just make a deity ourselves - our faith is based on a revelation,

RedStar:

their are so many flaws in the Holly bible.......I cringe every time that somebody tries to point to it and say ....That is what it says ......therefore it is!!.

Annwyn2:

Deut:

states....when thou art come into the land which the Lord thy god giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations..there shall not be found among you

ArgentFoxII:

Can we perhaps focus on one point at a time:

I WOULD like to turn it over to Nestor to pose the next question, and maybe we could focus in that fashion, answer on the designated question?

Nestor11:

Argent -- my learned friend-- I have not seen an answer to the question of the difference theologically between a 'salvation' religion and one that focuses on the responsibility of the individual to achieve their own development

milt33:

So therefore even if you see some analogy type similarities between the two, doesn't make a witch a christian

Kildeer:

I agree with it, to be both, whole heatedly is not possible as many aspects are not compatible...

PAniteowl:

I think Fyre has a valid point

Annwyn2:

ANY one that would maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch or a charmer or a consulter with familiar

JTull:

But how can it be that Xtianity believes god is only a god of love and that satan is the source of all thats seen as bad, Lilly. Is satan then an aspect of God?

HEYYYAmber:

i think all of you honestly need help and are sick minded

Annwyn2:

spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer

RedStar:

if Christians would expend as much energy learning their Bible rather than interrupting it......that they do on trying to control others, save them and "Witness"......

Annwyn2:

That about covers it all

kitten xx:

God created satan

Annwyn2:

NOT just poisoner

RedStar:

they would actually be surprised at how much of christianity IS PAGAN....and that its roots WERE PAGAN!!!

ArgentFoxII:

Yes they would Redstar

Nestor11:

Please let's not get lost on the Chrsitian problems with this issue --rather let us focus on what the pagan point of view is

JTull:

yes they would Red

kitten xx:

christianity is not paganism

Red Deer:

excellent point Nestor

kitten xx:

your wrong

JTull:

Much is Kitten

Nestor11:

and do so in light of theological and philosophical differences

ArgentFoxII:

Nestor I must yield to the point that a salvation religion may be different , but as you know Christianity took things from Mithras and the Great Mother Cybele cult etc. quite an admixture

Kildeer:

Kitten, Christianity has many Pagan aspects to it

Nestor11:

yes but even their the initiates had to prove themselves

ArgentFoxII:

So maybe where we can reach agreement is that an admixture is possible as OWL and LILY said ?

Nestor11:

there was not something offered for nothing

PAniteowl:

Fox, the original concept of the

PAniteowl:

Christian religion is quite different from today

milt33:

What do you mean NOTHING, nestor?

ArgentFoxII:

I am getting somewhat lost? LOL

ArgentFoxII:

I agree owl {s}

Annwyn2:

BUT PA so is that which is being posed as Pagan..different today that centuries ago...

Nestor11:

and Argent my distinguished colleague -- what about what it take to become a witch -- should we adopt some standards and except some positive actions like in the ancient mystery school or is this to become

RedStar:

well I thing this settles it in my mind .....I really thing it is totally inconceivable that any body could Honestly classify themselves as "Christian Wiccan" or Christian Pagan"......as we can see the energy differences do not

JTull:

back

PAniteowl:

yes Annie .. and the differences are increasing it seems

Annwyn2:

the only reason prob that xianity one over mithraism was an acceptance of women..which of course was an added facet

Nestor11:

sim;py a 'you all come and you can join --just sign on the dotted line?

ArgentFoxII:

NESTOR the Catholic Church still requires one year of training

RedStar:

for a pagan...to claim that they are Christian as well.......means they are a hypocrite.

ArgentFoxII:

for converts

Nestor11:

no Argent --Nestor of the believer in the old mystery school concept

Annwyn2:

and the fact that Mithras was virtually a GOD of soldiers..this too made it not as acceptable to women

ArgentFoxII:

I taught the Catechumens ,S>

RedStar:

like wise a Christian who claims to be a pagan is just as hypocritical....

FyreLily:

Nestor, for Wicca itself, I would wholeheartedly agree. Being a witch or a pagan gives a somewhat looser framework of beliefs and practices

Annwyn2:

very old..huh Nes{g}

kitten xx:

because of adam sinning we are all sinners

kitten xx:

dont blame God

RedStar:

now i don't know about you all......but me

JTull:

lilly did you see my question?

virtizbored:

why cant christians understand god isnt real false love

RedStar:

a hypocrite is a hypocrite .........be they claim paganism......or Christianity.

Annwyn2:

hehe

Nestor11:

an good point kitten -- most Wiccans would not accept the concept of sin --rather 'productive ' vs 'counter-productive'

ArgentFoxII:

Redstar there are practicing ceremonial magicians who are christian and many other practitioners of magic, why is the wiccan christian admixture so poisonous to you?

Kildeer:

I have a question to ask on that viewpoint then Red.......

PAniteowl:

agree, Red Star {g}

JTull:

I think the format is defeating the topic MP all

Annwyn2:

prob foremost ceremonial magicians are among the current Charismatic factions of xianity

Nestor11:

now there is a problem with 'hubris' but that is in a class in its self and not so much a 'sin'

virtizbored:

what is Christian witch craft?

milt33:

Argent - the problem is that the bible says sorcery is wrong and a christian is one who follows the Lord Jesus - not ignoring His commands

Annwyn2:

{g}..if you look closely at the concept..

RedStar:

and in all the religious philosophies I know and Love....a hypocrite is not what they proclaim.......nor are they accepted.

HEYYYAmber:

Christianity is not paganism, i am sorry but its not

Annwyn2:

but Milt..aren't the things we do things that Jesus did?

JTull:

Much of it is Amber

RedStar:

Hypocrisy is flat out wrong in ANY RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY.

Nestor11:

I think we agree on that neighbor Amber

FyreLily:

Milt, Jesus was concerned with leading a specific group of people to new concepts of the Divine. Perhaps those injunctions were necessary at the time. HOWEVER . . .

Red Deer:

where did JESUS say Witches were a problem milt?

milt33:

no annwyn

HEYYYAmber:

JTULL......uh sorry but i gotta disagree with you there

FyreLily:

remember the injunction later (Paul, wasn't it?) to take all ideas captive for Christ.

milt33:

Jesus was God and using His power - witchcraft is mere humans attempting to manipulate forces of the unknown

Annwyn2:

hmmm...he did not commune with familiar

spirits...heal...divine?

HEYYYAmber:

Christians don't worship the dead or many gods, Christians don't sacrifice human beings

Kildeer:

The problem is that we are relating on the aspect of what the followers of christ have turned his teachings into, not all of what was taught was bad......

RedStar:

Fox....it is not just the Christian Wiccan. that I am ranting about....

Nestor11:

RD --can we please keep it on what pagans think of the concept --rather than what the Christians think of us or what we think of them

FyreLily:

RedStar, I don't think we're talking about hypocrisy--we all seem to agree that not ALL tenets of Christianity and Wicca are compatible.

Red Deer:

wait, milt... I'm asking for a Bible passage which says that JESUS said the Craft is BAD

JTull:

lol Amber you know better

Annwyn2:

we do not manipulate...we participate IN

FyreLily:

We're talking about a BLEND

milt33:

Annwyn - that was using His own power, not conjuring up forces of the unknown

HEYYYAmber:

Christians are people with loving hearts, God is a loving God and will love you no matter what

ofBELTANE:

so, your saying that Christians are polytheistic? milt

RedStar:

it is any hybrid of Christian with any other racially Differing Religion......

Red Deer:

AMBER - you need to learn before you talk

Red Deer:

helps keep your foot out of your mouth

Annwyn2:

we do not conjure so much as tune in

HEYYYAmber:

Red Deer......i'll get you a verse that says witchcraft is bad

milt33:

No Beltane - Im saying Jesus was God, not a mere human

HEYYYAmber:

i know exactly what I am talking about jerk

FyreLily:

Exactly, Annwyn. Something many Christians would find quite compatible with Jesus' teachings.

milt33:

Amber!

HEYYYAmber:

yes milt?

FyreLily:

However, milt, not all Christians would agree that Jesus was ACTUALLY God.

RedStar:

that entails.....Christian Druids, Christian Rune mages.......Christian Celts. Christian Native americans Shamen.......Etc.

james ensor2:

Being a true Wiccan, I can totally admit that I spend most weekends sacrificing various animals

ofBELTANE:

according to the Egyptian version of the Moses story, Moses was the Witch

HEYYYAmber:

i am sorry but they are making fun of me and think they have all the right answers

Red Deer:

what about the TOPIC??????????????????

Annwyn2:

but he came through a human...as PR for the human

LordCearnach:

Red Deer, why do you choose to encourage these petty diatribes...when it obviously resolves nothing...nor will it ever...?

HEYYYAmber:

well Red Deeri guess it died didn't it?

FyreLily:

FyreLily:

No, Amber, not if everyone remains calm

Annwyn2:

what is the topic?{g}

Red Deer:

no one here is discussing the possibility of combining the two...

milt33:

Yes Annwyn - He was manifested as a human

FyreLily:

Everyone take a breath, please

Annwyn2:

ah..so he was Human doing godly things?

LordCearnach:

If anyone is being hypocritical, it is those who choose to be here on a genuine basis....instead of encouraging, we should be excluding...or, simply generate a private room....quite simple...

FyreLily:

{---trying, EH {s}

Nestor11:

What I have been seeing this that we are allowing the Christian in this room do shape this discussion --- I think this must STOP!

Red Deer:

"CHRISTIAN WITCHCRAFT"

milt33:

RED DEER- do you feel there is still some feeling we can combine them successfully?

Red Deer:

is it?

Emer:

No one can debate if they are irked, then it becomes an insulting match.

Red Deer:

isn't it?

RedStar:

amber I hate to make you look uneducated...........but their is NO HEBREW WORDS THAT TRANSLATE TO Witchcraft, Witches, or MAGIC.

HEYYYAmber:

there is NO such thing as Christian Witchcraft

Kildeer:

What about the idea that Jesus was a Seer, his powers were only given "divine" influence by those that witnessed them and explained it in their minds the only way they could

Kildeer:

????

Annwyn2:

hehe...Red Deer forgot

xSereneMyst:

This is quite pointless.

JTull:

The topic has been killed by the format

ofBELTANE:

I think this entire Idea was BAD!!!

milt33:

Annwyn - we believe Jesus was God in human form using His power

Emer:

Weeeeeeeeeeeee Go Red, right on.

Red Deer:

I personally can not combine them successfully...

RedStar:

and is that what not your bible is supposed to be transcribed from?

ofBELTANE:

it has turned into a Holy War

Red Deer:

the question is whether others can, have or do

Kildeer:

then if that were true, the aspect would be that true christianity came

Annwyn2:

but see we believe we are god also

FyreLily:

We aren't debating the Bible's authenticity. Please let's pass on that topic.

Annwyn2:

{g}that should go over well

Annwyn2:

that is divine

Annwyn2:

{g}

RedStar:

that in itself tells you that those words were added to the Bible in the 14th Century which is where they originated.....

james ensor2:

I think, though I am not Christian, that the two can be combined... I mean, witchcraft, when simplified, is the usage of energy with an intent, and Christians have that ability as well,

ofBELTANE:

Milt...I have a question for you

Kildeer:

not came... could be given into some Pagan beliefs as well.....

milt33:

ok Beltane

james ensor2:

though they don't realize it for the most part

ofBELTANE:

if Jesus was god

FyreLily:

The point is not whether Jesus or the Bible say a Christian cannot practice magick--the point is whether it actually IS possible for some people

JTull:

i think those who claim both are trying to fit in to a xtian society

ofBELTANE:

with me?

RedStar:

LEARN.....BEFORE YOU TRY TO SPEAK OR PROVE Something......on a False HOOD!!!!!

FyreLily:

Quite possible, Tull

Nestor11:

no the Idea --Beltane was good -- to discuss the limits of what is Craft and what falls outside the common theological ground which most traditions share

milt33:

Fyre - well Im questioning whether you could define them a christian in that case

Annwyn2:

did you guys cover accepting Christ as your saviour?

ofBELTANE:

then why did he say while on the cross

Cloudburst:

That's MAGICK, James

FyreLily:

I think you could, milt

HEYYYAmber:

Ann.........no

Nestor11:

no annwyn --and that was my point earlier

ArgentFoxII:

got bumped

HEYYYAmber:

they just think Christianity and witchcraft are the same

ofBELTANE:

forgive them father, they no not what they do

HEYYYAmber:

which is not true at all

Annwyn2:

isn't that the basic premise of xianity...accepting Jesus as your savior?

Nestor11:

we are not a 'salvation religion'

ofBELTANE:

was he talking to himself?

Red Deer:

no we haven't really Annie, though Nestor raised it as an objection to combining

FyreLily:

Because not all Christians believe that one must interpret the Bible literally. They follow the teachings/intentions of Jesus as they are made clear in each of their hearts.

milt33:

Well Fyre - I define it as one who has accepted Christ which means you highly regard His commands - I just dont see that definition as valid

Emer:

I don`t think Christianity and Paganism are the same.

james ensor2:

Um, magick and witchcraft... what's the difference?

I Novessa:

they're not

ArgentFoxII:

Honoring the Son, the Mother, the Father etc not valid hmmmm

FyreLily:

correct, Nestor, that is a basic difference.

HEYYYAmber:

well good Emer cause they aren't

PAniteowl:

that's a topic for another nite James {g}

Nestor11:

nor can the mix --rather we have to learn to at least tolerate if not respect each other

Annwyn2:

we don't need saved because we are not inherently bad and we take responsibility for our own actions

xSereneMyst:

Chrisitanity is basic tenants.

Cloudburst:

My sentiments exactly, PA{g}

Emer:

I agree Nes

xLabyrinth:

what we have here, is a failure to communicate......indeed our own interpretations of certain concepts ratify our ability to come together cohesively in one group with singular goals independent

xSereneMyst:

are based on Paganism.

xLabyrinth:

of individual ideas

milt33:

Well I have not seen very many humans take such responsibility on their own, Ann

ArgentFoxII:

I dont think we can say they cannot be mixed, who is to say NO, to such a thing, other sects or groups say yes, does that mean they would be Wiccan HERETICS?

xLabyrinth:

a wiccan is a witch but not all witches are wiccan

Emer:

That is very true Myst, good point.

FyreLily:

Let's not play semantics. Obviously, a Christian Witch is neither Christian nor a Pure Witch, but a blend. The term is merely the best way of describing the mix. Thoughts on that?

RedStar:

Fox to elaborate on your comment........I have been witness to these groups, that claim the Christian/ whatever combination.....I have seen them try to

Cloudburst:

No such thing as a Wiccan heretic, I hope, Fox

xLabyrinth:

a christian is a son of god but not all children of the gods are christian

Annwyn2:

Fox...I think the deterrent lies with the xians not the Wiccans

RedStar:

use Ritual Energies, and High ritual energies.....

james ensor2:

Labyrinth, I agree, most people here are so full of themselves and their own beliefs that they can't accept an alternative point of view

Nestor11:

Argent - we do have aright to decide whose believe system does follow the more traditional teaching

Annwyn2:

We respect all paths...but I don't thing that Xians would accept one of their own following our path...

Nestor11:

that does not me we persecute them

xLabyrinth:

what matters with labels, that a debate must be made...

indeed James

Nestor11:

rather we may just chose to avoid them

Emer:

Trust me Ann, they don`t

ArgentFoxII:

Ahhh So Like the One True Church of Catholicism it

depends on Tradition?

xLabyrinth:

still it is a good topic worthy of discussion :

>

JTull:

they do not Ann

milt33:

Well they obviously can have such a path (christian;

wicca) but I contend that the accepted definition of

'chritian' can not be used for that religion

FyreLily:

Perhaps we must also, for the sake of conversation, settle

that we are talking about witches/pagans and NOT Wiccans (a specific tradition and set of beliefs)

Nestor11:

no within that Argent there is a wide scope --but it is not unlimitless

RedStar:

and quite frankly.....because of their own uncertainty.......the energies they conjure......are very

tainted, unfocused, and chaotic.......and in every circumstance.....That I have personally been witnessed

too....

ofBELTANE:

although Nestor, that does not mean the other tradition is less valid

PAniteowl:

thanks Fyre {g}

FyreLily:

Milt, that's why we're not calling them "Christians" with a period at the end {s}

ArgentFoxII:

Perhaps the mix would be neither but a child of both Parent Religions {s}

xLabyrinth:

that is the problem milt.... the 'accepted definition' of many things is what causes problems for us today; whether you are christian or wiccan or buddhist; you are labeled and there is an accepted definition for you

FyreLily:

Please, can we agree that we're not discussing Christian WICCANS?

RedStar:

they have done more to harm others in the long run (As well as themselves).....because

Emer:

Yes, Paganism is to Wicca as Christianity is to Catholicism

xLabyrinth:

break the molds men and ladies

JTull:

yes lilly

ofBELTANE:

Like my children are, my wife is Christian and I am Wiccan

FyreLily:

ArgentFoxII:

Ahhh good point{s}

milt33:

The other thing, Fyre , is the basis of christianity - even nonfundamental catholicism - is prayer and trust in God to have things done with Gods power - not our own manipulation of the forces. I just cant see why someone with a "christian" bend would want to do witchcraft in the first place

Red Deer:

We all know that there is one form of Christian Witch to which every Pagan refers at one time or another

Red Deer:

the Satanic Witch

RedStar:

the level of mastery is not their....nor can it ever be......not when refracted so greatly from a useful form.

ofBELTANE:

we teach them the best and most positive of both faiths

kitten xx:

maybe one day she will tell u about jesus beltane

Nestor11:

Beltane -- I find that most difference between tradition lie well within the bounds of what I can conceive as being Wiccan --but yes sometimes there are items like 'Christian Wicca ' which I can not see

kitten xx:

it does happen

Nestor11:

as being part of the faith

Red Deer:

so it seems within reason to question whether the others exist...

FyreLily:

Kitten, please knock off the preaching. Thank you {s}

ofBELTANE:

I was Christian once

kitten xx:

what happen beltane?

ArgentFoxII:

What is the difference between what catholic priests do with ritual, or Miracles for that matter:

Holy Magic, perhaps magic perhaps shamanism

ofBELTANE:

it made no sense to me

Emer:

Milt, Pagans do not manipulate forces. We work within the energy that is already present

kitten xx:

why not?

Nestor11:

and so-called 'Satanic Wicca' (left handed Christianity) is not outside the bounds that are acceptable

ofBELTANE:

it didn't feel right

RedStar:

I was worse than Christian once.........I went as far as being a Minister (I shudder at the thought)

FyreLily:

Thanks, Argent. Magick, indeed

JTull:

did you ever get that scripture RED DEER???

kitten xx:

maybe you didnt have enough faith beltane?

ofBELTANE:

much like wicca would feel to you

milt33:

Yeah emer - you use special ingredients and ritual esp with a full moon to affect the energies

kitten xx:

i know i dont understand wicca

melilot:

fact one everyone is capable of performing magic fact two some religions forbid the act

xLabyrinth:

even using that as an example Red Deer; a satanic witch is an impossibility; yet there are witches who pledge themselves to satan. ignorance or not, individual beliefs entitle individual labels

ArgentFoxII:

There is Christian Magic, use of Psalms as prayer, candles, incense in Catholicism appeal to Archangels and Saints etc

milt33:

Christians pray to God to use His power as he sees fit - a BIG difference - so I think a christian oriented person just wouldnt have a desire for witchcraft

JTull:

Kitten you know me right

kitten xx:

yes i do tull :

)

ofBELTANE:

well, I have you there, cause I understand Christianity, I simply don't agree with it's teachings

RedStar:

fact three Melli.........just cause anyone can do it....dose not mean they do it properly...or Safely!!!!

kitten xx:

ok

melilot:

so true red {g}

ArgentFoxII:

Ahhh but some christians ask for help from a whole host of beings

JTull:

so if you ever want to know ask, i'm not out to convert but for understanding

james ensor2:

Hmm... say a person was going to do a spell, right? They chose a particular god to call upon... it happened to be God (daddy to jesus) Hmm... maybe some believe jesus was son of Gods?

ArgentFoxII:

Angels, Archangels, Saints etc

RedStar:

like.........Pritty pink powder......

Emer:

Many Pagans use visualization more than anything else. Anyway, the herbs were already present. Don`t get going about Rituals because Christians use rituals too. We`re not going there

kitten xx:

did i say something wrong Jtull?

Red Deer:

some ask for help from Witches Fox

RedStar:

I dare anyone to come up with a batch that works like mine....LOL

FyreLily:

Now you're thinking along "blended" lines, James ensor {s}

MafiaMama3:

is what catholics are taught argent,

JTull:

No you said you did not understand

melilot:

red's pretty pink powder is the BEST

Annwyn2:

sorry had to put little wiccan back to sleep

PAniteowl:

Red's powder {g} .. A#!

JTull:

Red Deer did you ever get that scripture?

RedStar:

just see how hard they get slapped if they try.....

Nestor11:

Question to the Christians --are there those whom you hear calling them self -Christian whom you realize are outside the boundaries of your faith --realize it is the same here too --there are wide limits but

Nestor11:

limits

melilot:

red's powder is Queen Spamula endorsed

xLabyrinth:

the teachings of christianity and teachings of jesus are not the same anyway.... one can follow the commandments of jesus, and still hold the theology of the pagans... it is done often

ofBELTANE:

the only Item that says we are wrong is the Bible, written by men. There is not solid proof that it is the word of God

kitten xx:

Is this the devil room????

james ensor2:

Lily... I can't help it... I was baptized Catholic, raised Baptist, and I converted to paganism at age 13... {g}

ArgentFoxII:

EXAMPLE:

Many Catholics burn a candle dedicated to the Archangel Michael for protection:

This is classic candle magic with the intercessor being Michael {s}

RedStar:

course...It took me 2 years to formulate it correctly.......LOL

melilot:

sure is kitten i know a lot of sexy devils in here

JTull:

Kitten you know better

FyreLily:

Agreed, Argent

Red Deer:

scripture tull?'

ofBELTANE:

lol

FyreLily:

It's a WAY of HELPING tune in to the divine power

ofBELTANE:

<---sexy devil {g}

JTull:

about the craft did they ever give it to you?

MafiaMama3:

so who r the intercessors in wicca? or r there any?

Annwyn2:

isn't there a basic break in reg xianity and catholicism just for those practices?

FyreLily:

Mafia, there are many, depending on the tradition one follows.

Nestor11:

Argent --I agree Christains do use magick --but is that what make you a witch --I think not --it is our theology and our relationship to our Goddess and God that make us Wiccan

PAniteowl:

Well, Foxy .. it looks like your proposal doesn't find favor from either side {g}

ofBELTANE:

intercessor?

Annwyn2:

and it is not just MAGIC that makes us Wiccan either

ArgentFoxII:

Isaac Bonewits Poses the thought that all Gods, and Goddesses exist based on the belief of their believers:

So that all exist at once, {s}

FyreLily:

Are we still defining witch = wicca?

TargeDubh:

each tradition has its own Mama

FyreLily:

???

RedStar:

nor is it just ones relationship with ones deities.......

MafiaMama3:

thnx, fyre

ArgentFoxII:

LOL OWL I dont seek vindication, more like discussion, it is enlightening LOL

ArgentFoxII:

I seek no converts LOL

Nestor11:

Argent --I have discussed this many times with Issac (having know him for years ) but he is wrong on that point!

PAniteowl:

Lily .. I don't think there has been any clear definition of ANYTHING!!! {g}

Annwyn2:

{g}PA

ArgentFoxII:

Ahhh that is opinion correct Nestor {s}

melilot:

oh yes there is pa.......spam can clearly be defined

RedStar:

it is a combination of that, with our own efforts, integrity, honor, and knowledge.

FyreLily:

Well, we're going to go around and around unless we can agree whether we're discussing Christian Witchcraft or Christian Wicca. Red Deer? Help?

Red Deer:

after all, isn't conversation what we're here for?

Red Deer:

I don't know that I can Fyre

Red Deer:

sorry

ArgentFoxII:

OK approach it from FyreLily's Suggestion?

ofBELTANE:

does this room remind anyone of the middle East?

ArgentFoxII:

What do you think Nestor?

FyreLily:

Can we agree? Which? Witch or Wicca?

Red Deer:

But, I think this state of the conversation brings us back to MY old favorite...

Red Deer:

SEMANTICS

Nestor11:

indeed it is my opinion as a Wiccan --please remember until Isaac married Debbie he had no real experience with the Craft rather he was the ArchDruid --a hold nother ball of wax

FyreLily:

Perferences, Nestor?

ofBELTANE:

{g}

Red Deer:

if we aren't using the same terms, or aren't using terms in the same ways, how can we resolve a question?

Annwyn2:

I think its more than semantics...I think its trying to box into words that which is beyond words

melilot:

well since the practice of witchcraft is held to be a sin by the majority of christians can on be christian and practice witchcraft?

Emer:

True Ann

Annwyn2:

and I don't think it matters what we think here...or how we try to define it..it will simply still be

FyreLily:

Obviously, we can't get down to the ultimate nitty gritty. But we can't get ANYwhere without some basic framework.

Red Deer:

I'm not referring to the topic Annie, but to the discussion.

ofBELTANE:

I agree Ann...the word is "FAITH"

RedStar:

IMHO....they can not coexist under one United philosophy...they are fare to divergent form one and the other........

Annwyn2:

I wonder if the DISCUSSION degrades our belief

ArgentFoxII:

I think what the MAJORITY thinks is not the question , lol, as Wiccans have proven LOL

Emer:

I don`t think they can by Christian standards Mel

Nestor11:

meli that rules it out from the Christian point of view --what should be the dissuasion here is what is the

PAGAN/WICCAN point of view

FyreLily:

Mel, I would submit that not all Christians believe that to be truly Christian is to follow all the OT "rules and regs" but to follow the core of Jesus teachings. Therefore, it could be compatible in the right blend.

Red Deer:

agreed Fyre... I just can't impose it - folk have to agree on it!

RedStar:

though they do work very well, in their own philosophies........

Red Deer:

sorry Annie I gotta pick on you

Red Deer:

that sounds like Christian Fundamentalist tactics to keep folk from thinking!

Annwyn2:

easy mark...you can do better than me{g}

melilot:

ahh but if discussing christians practicing witchcraft you must take the majority of that religion into count what we think isn't what they think

MafiaMama3:

meli, i think one can practice witchcraft and still be a christian,,all depends on what exactly christians believe beyond the basics,

ArgentFoxII:

Basic Christianity is a possible mix with basic paganism {s}

Emer:

Most Christians don`t know anything beyond the Church teachings and this is the problem.......

MafiaMama3:

i agree, argent

RedStar:

now that don't mean they are not both equally worth respect....

Annwyn2:

not possible mix...direct rip off

MafiaMama3:

true, emer,,they never give any other religions a chance to b heard

RedStar:

nor dose that mean that one is "Better than the Other"

FyreLily:

AGain, Mel, it becomes semantic. I for one would disagree with a fundamental interpretation of the Bible, no matter HOW many Southern Baptists sat atop me. I know many Christians who agree.

Emer:

They don`t understand the scriptures, they know what was taught to them. More like fed to them.

PAniteowl:

Mafia .. if you're talking about Christians practicing magick .. that's something we all know happens .. but for Christians to also practice the Craft as RELIGION??? Nope . I can't see it

Nestor11:

With all due respect ArgentFox --i would completely disagree with you on the concept of Christian Wicca

Emer:

Oh, Sorry about the spelling guys, my wrist is giving me problems. Please forgive

Nestor11:

the two can not mix

ArgentFoxII:

What about the old example of the Tarot Card Wielding Gypsy {s}who is avowedly Catholic {s}

MafiaMama3:

in that i agree, PA, not as a religion, no

Nestor11:

they are philosophically and theological in opposition

Cloudburst:

That person's a tarot-reading Catholic, Fox

FyreLily:

Know what, guys? I think we all agree with Nestor. But what about Christian Witchcraft?

Annwyn2:

I don't think anyone here is saying there has never been an avowed xian who practices magic

FyreLily:

Exactly, Annwyn

PAniteowl:

and I think, Mafia, that that is where the philosophy falls apart .. for a Christian to state they were practicing the craft, only says that they do not respect the Religion of the craft

RedStar:

isn't this all what I just typed??????.....LOL

Nestor11:

Fyre --I would suggest what the Xians think about it is their problem --not ours

Mistery000:

Well I was half Christian half Warlock

ArgentFoxII:

Nestor I agree we may disagree but the difference is the fact I allow all to exist although I feel core tenets of both faiths should be integrated into the hypothetical christian witch {s}

MafiaMama3:

but, they do believe that magic works, at least some do, i know that i do,

xSereneMyst:

Apostle Paul practiced magic

Emer:

Wait!!! It sounds like Ann has the answer

FyreLily:

Quite true, Nestor

Red Deer:

but practicing magick is NOT practicing the Craft Myst

Annwyn2:

wait Emer..cuz I might just stir the pot{g}

Nestor11:

Agreed EH!!!

PAniteowl:

YES RED DEER!!! {g}

RedStar:

VERY GOOD!!!!!!! and you are so correct!!!!!

Emer:

ROFL ANN

xSereneMyst:

I didn't say anything about the Craft I said magic

ArgentFoxII:

Ok DEFINE ? {s}

ArgentFoxII:

Clarify {s}

Mistery000:

The two can be together but its harder

Red Deer:

Mistery - to us, Warlock means 'oath breaker" we wouldn't associate with you

ArgentFoxII:

LOL

james ensor2:

YOu know, I just realized something.... this conversation is as relevant to my religion as the New Testament... See you all later! :

) :

:

hugs to all:

:

Red Deer:

but you use magickal practice it seems to define Witch and many others practice magick, not just us

FyreLily:

Let's get a good working definition, then - ideas? RD? Nestor?

MafiaMama3:

please do, i would like to understand you all,

Emer:

I don`t get how the Christian practice of magic is allowable but the Pagan practice is not. That is a double standard

ArgentFoxII:

Does Wicca consider ceremonial magicians as sorta cousins of witches, or is that apples and oranges cause we are talking religion?

Nestor11:

Mistery -- just look at the symbolic problems --the Circle itself being held to be the 'Womb of the Great Mother' --who is not even consider as part of Christian theology and is degraded by them

PAniteowl:

Oh .. good point Emer {g}

TargeDubh:

PA.....I know Mama believes in magic.... she has seen me and Pala at work

Red Deer:

I'd say apples & oranges Fox

MafiaMama3:

:

-)

Annwyn2:

ARgent that's a loaded question and you know it...melilot:

i first i think what ever religion you follow you must adhere to it's dictates which means if it's wrong to practice witchcraft in your religion you can't do that and claim to follow your religion

PAniteowl:

{g} Targe

MafiaMama3:

and i am a good catholic girl, the priest told me so, LOL

Nestor11:

Argent --both I believe work with energy forces of the universe but the manor in with they are approached and the types of forces used are quite quite different

Emer:

lol Mama

Annwyn2:

what do you think are the precedents to ceremonial magic?

melilot:

mama did he say just how "good" you were {g}

FyreLily:

One has to consider the fact that any blend of faiths is going to require reconceptualizing basics, including

Divnity. Many Christians would have no problem with envisioning the Divine as all/part Mother

MafiaMama3:

true meli, but that is why there is so much hypocrisy in religion today, ,,

Red Deer:

what about the Catholic Nuns who are also Santeria bruhas?

MafiaMama3:

hey, ask targe, he knows, LOL

FyreLily:

It is not mainstream, but it is NOT against the teachings of Jesus

melilot:

heheheh mama

Annwyn2:

there is also the question of intent and focus in our practice of magic...we don't just do it because we can or to diddle

ArgentFoxII:

Meliot:

You can find a christian denomination in California that would allow you to practice witchcraft, and no it should not matter what the majority say, then your minister would allow it{s}

Emer:

Oh, I totally disagree there Lily. I know most christians can`t stand the idea of a female divine

ArgentFoxII:

Not the Spanish!

Annwyn2:

and much of our ceremony is based on relinking to the divine..not manipulating it on our own behalf

PAniteowl:

ahhh .. but Fox .. we don't need permission from a minister {g} .. we are not observers of rites, we are participants!

melilot:

well my "minister" allows me to make my own choices she's been allowing that for years

Red Deer:

Fyre & Emer - it actually depends upon what Christians you hang out with

MafiaMama3:

emer, not can't stand, just can't fathom,

Emer:

Good point Eh.

ArgentFoxII:

LOL I was arguing for the christian witch practitioner LOL

melilot:

my minister's name happens to be melilot

Red Deer:

aw, come on PA...

Nestor11:

but once again that is the concept of the Christians -- it is not our problem

PAniteowl:

yes RD??? {g}

Red Deer:

you know there are plenty of covens where the exact same might be said of the HP and HPS

Emer:

LOL mel

ArgentFoxII:

Christians believe everyone is a priest under the order of

Melchizzedek *spelling

MafiaMama3:

nestor, why does it have to be a problem?

xSereneMyst:

saying hang around xtians is kind of redundant isn't it?

PAniteowl:

heheheh .. EH ... now why do you think I remain Solitaire? {g}

Nestor11:

because their theological ( mainstream denominations) do not accept it

Emer:

Well, it has become my problem as I get persecuted much by them, even lost jobs because of them.

Emer:

That is a whole other topic though {g}

Nestor11:

so what their people do it not our concern

MafiaMama3:

true, but the way that u r talking makes me think that u do not accept them, either,

MafiaMama3:

and that is a problem, too

Nestor11:

they have a right to their believes

PAniteowl:

BB Cloud

ArgentFoxII:

Could you all be so kind as I am not following you definitional difference between practice of the CRAFT vs MAGIC/other than perhaps religious ????????????????

Emer:

Me Mama?

Red Deer:

Well folk, I'm gonna cut the logs, cause it's almost 10:

15

MafiaMama3:

as do all of u,

TargeDubh:

but Argent when we do a circle and do magic we ask help from many god's and goddess's... in the christian teaching you only have one to ask for help... how can a christian be wiccan also???

MafiaMama3:

no, emer, nestor

Nestor11:

however that right does not include them attempting to suppress mine

melilot:

mama i think there are xian's and christians and the two should never be confused the first i exclude the second are some of the most wonderful people i know

Annwyn2:

there is not an OTHER..that is what we are saying....

ArgentFoxII:

SAints angels archangels etc LOL

ArgentFoxII:

Mary as Mother etc LOL

Red Deer:

And, I gotta split... Thank you ALL for a great conversation. If you guys keep this going, would some one send me a log from here on?

Red Deer:

Brightest Blessings & Merry Part