This archive contains a discussion of polyamory (committed, long-term relationships between more than two people) and paganism. Those present shared their own experiences with both monogamous and polyamorous relationships. Polayamory is not part and parcel of Witchcraft, nor of Paganism in general. We neither endorse polyamory as a lifestyle for all, nor condemn it; instead, we see it as one of multiple lifestyle choices worthy of open discussion. Should you find this view unacceptable, please restrain from reading this log. Choosing to continue indicates acceptance of responsibility for your own reaction.

WiseWitch:

RD - I was SERIOUS about my class idea

Murta:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{MELI}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

ViragoWitch:

...not even by a long shot

Murta:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{WM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

melilot:

I'll vote for penile flatulence dear

Murta:

ok,,,what have i missed so far?

Emer:

I have to saw VW`s topic is comical

ViragoWitch:

penile flatulence!

WiseWitch:

Meli always votes for trouser trouts

Murta:

u would, meli,,,lol

RED DEER:

OK, is everyone up for a discussion of polyamory?

melilot:

hehehehe

RavenBast:

of how to explain to non-believers about our faith

ViragoWitch:

<- wants to found a polyamorous cooperative

Emer:

I`m up for any discussion, been out of it for too long

RED DEER:

and what it has to do with Paganism?

RavenBast:

I would if I knew what it was

ViragoWitch:

think i can get a gov't grant?

Murta:

is that what it translates to, raven?

WiseWitch:

you can try, VW

melilot:

ask a senator named kennedy vw

RED DEER:

poly = multiple, amory = lovers

Emer:

LOL

Murta:

LOL

RavenBast:

money from taxes?

ViragoWitch:

hehehe...a kennedy is a neighbor of mine

Murta:

so is polyamory a part of wicca?

ViragoWitch:

if i ever run into him at the Giant...i'll be sure to ask

melilot:

inside or outside of a commited relationship

WiseWitch:

Polyamory relates well to polytheology

RED DEER:

I think, polyamorous committed relationships meli

RavenBast:

I think it is a personal dission no matter what religeon you are of

RED DEER:

extended INTIMATE family

WiseWitch:

Uh, Virago =- is that like how you ran into Newt, with that coffee?

Emer:

I, personally, like that idea

RED DEER:

agreed bast

ViragoWitch:

Not Newt....Pat Buchanan

Emer:

Newt`s family actually does live near me

RavenBast:

thanks

WiseWitch:

is there a difference, VW?

ViragoWitch:

not much of one

Murta:

commited in what way, Red Deer? just a couple committed to each other?

ViragoWitch:

ok....have we found a topic yet?

RavenBast:

I am a virgin, but also a supporter of ti < if that makes any sence

RavenBast:

>

Emer:

I thought it was Polyamory

melilot:

i think it would depend on the people involved i personally would not since my vows to otto included monogomy but if others go into a relationship which allows for polyamour i see nothing wrong

Murta:

me too, emer

WiseWitch:

my sexual vows include monogamy, but my husband doesn't engage in sex

ViragoWitch:

polyamorous relationships....vs. penile flatulence...tough decision

RED DEER:

OK folks, may I have your attention please?

Murta:

u got it, Red Deer

RavenBast:

you have mine

WICCA101:

LOL.....sounds like mine!

RavenBast:

start already

Emer:

::Looking at Red Deer::

RED DEER:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations

in IM for the duration of class.

RavenBast:

deal

Murta:

good idea, Red Deer

RavenBast:

2)...?

RED DEER:

2) Since this is open discussion, the floor is open.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

WiseWitch:

Don't look at me to log - I've been having trouble staying on-line.

RED DEER:

5) With that, the floor is open for a discussion of polyamory and Paganism.

Murta:

ok gang,,,learn me,,am willing and ready,,,

RED DEER:

So, is polyamory part of Paganism?

Emer:

Logged

melilot:

i really don't think polyamory would be part of pagan teachings any more than monogomy would to each their own

WiseWitch:

It certainly CAN be, RD.

WiseWitch:

Polyamory has, kind of, the same basis as Pagan polytheism

RED DEER:

How is it managed?

PAniteowl:

uh .. excuse me .. but explain specifically your meaning of polyamory

RED DEER:

What about jealousy?

WiseWitch:

The idea that there is not just ONE right God/lover/etc to lavish adoration on

Murta:

jealousy can be dealt wit, Red Deer

RavenBast:

I think it has nothing and every thing to do with our religoen [depending on what link you shoud choose

RED DEER:

My question was HOW?

WiseWitch:

Is it jealousy or greed? [g]

RED DEER:

Monogamy is more "greedy" than poly?

WysteriaMoon:

So you are saying that we all have more than one to adore during this lifetime?

melilot:

i don't think jealousy would be an issue if the people were open about their beliefs in poly before if they lead someone to believe in monogamy then changed thats a problem

WiseWitch:

Jealousy more greed, RD

Emer:

Would you consider Serial Monogamy a form of Polyarmory

RED DEER:

not I, Emer

WiseWitch:

Wyst, I'm not saying everyone has to have more than one, just like some are called to monotheism

RavenBast:

I wouldnt

melilot:

i don't think monogamy is either i think it's a choice just like any other

Murta:

agreed, meli

RED DEER:

by that definition, someone who's been married twice and never slept with anyone other than their 2 spouses is polyamorous

RavenBast:

if you just speak the words to another (other than your steady) would you consider that a case of it?

WysteriaMoon:

Is that good?

WiseWitch:

How many folks here work with more than one God/dess?

Murta:

not in my book, Red Deer,,,that to me is a monogamous person,,,

RavenBast:

I do

melilot:

claiming it is jealousy or greed leads me to think the person misled someone then is trying to put the blame for there failure to stick with their commitment on someone else

PAniteowl:

Uh .. where is it written in what BOS that polyamoury is part of paganism?

WiseWitch:

In my view, 'working' with more than one love is rather like working with more than one Goddess or God.

melilot:

i don't think it is PA it's just a lifestyle choice

WiseWitch:

Different specialist for different needs/wants/desires

RED DEER:

Then you see no value in exclusivity WW?

RavenBast:

I think love is love no matter how many you love

WiseWitch:

PA - it's not an order, but an exciting option.

PAniteowl:

that's what I thought Mel, but the topic was stated as poly within paganism

stardancer9:

POLYTHEISM = POLYAMORY???

WiseWitch:

phone - bbl]

Murta:

all depends, meli,,,for some it is a necessary choice, hon,,,

RED DEER:

no star, we're attempting to look at polyamory within polytheism

melilot:

it's still a choice Murta and as such neither right nor wrong

Murta:

true,,,true

melilot:

the problems occur when one has committed to a mono then wants to go poly

RavenBast:

large class tonight

Emer:

Good point mel

WysteriaMoon:

very large

moonListener:

tourists

PAniteowl:

I agree with Meli .. if you enter into a relationship that all agree will by polyamourous .. no problem, but if your talking about making it part of your religion, then that's another aspect

melilot:

then your not dealing with anything other than someone who has broken a oath that i view as a very bad thing to do

RavenBast:

I think you should always talk to your lover about how you feel about anything before it gets serious

WysteriaMoon:

that's the problem I have....someone commits as mono then goes poly

RED DEER:

would you then say that problems never occur when folks start off poly meli?

PAniteowl:

Sounds more like trying to justify actions after the fact

Murta:

true,,,but it IS possible to have a poly after u have been a committed mono,,,i speak from experience,,,

melilot:

no more problems than in a mono relationship Red Deer relationships are going to have problems

Murta:

and we all have it worked out very nicely,,,

melilot:

only if both sides agree Murta

Emer:

Oh, I disagree Red Deer, people get jealous wether the choice to be poly is stated from the start or not

Murta:

absolutely, meli

RavenBast:

I think it is up to you and you lover{S}

RED DEER:

more than both, meli... this is poly!

WysteriaMoon:

so true Emer

melilot:

not when you start with a mono Red Deer both of them must agree to turn there relationship into poly

RavenBast:

if it is an equal thing where is the problem?

RED DEER:

well then, is such jealousy limited to polyamorous relationships?

PAniteowl:

How does poly practice fit in with the Rede?

RED DEER:

hmm, PA... do you see the Rede as limiting our sexual expression?

moonListener:

same way "intent" fits in?

melilot:

no jealousy occurs in mono relationships to it is quite possible to be jealous of a boat a car a motorcycle

Emer:

No jealousy occurs in relations where there is no trust, poly, mono, or simply firendships

RavenBast:

I tell all my boyfriends on the first day that I am poly and expect them to be

melilot:

then you have been open and honest and not misled them raven that is a good thing

PAniteowl:

no Red Deer .. I am remembering the read in my choices of action to those in whom I have perfect love and perfect trust

Emer:

Please excuse my terrible spelling today

RavenBast:

but they dont have to be poly and I like to meet other girlfriends

WysteriaMoon:

What if you wanted to commit to one of your boyfriends entirely,...Raven...could you?

RED DEER:

I wonder - how many of us are talking poly, but pairwise, vs the "menage a troi" or more?

PAniteowl:

And I expect my behavior to allow them to have the same in me

Murta:

maybe u should clarify, Red Deer,,,

Krishna:

but you can still have perfect love and trust in a poly

Emer:

I agree PA

Murta:

i agree, Krishna

RED DEER:

PA - if poly were the expectation from the start, where does a violation of trust come in?

RavenBast:

I commet emotionally not sexually I cant kiss just one man

Emer:

Yes you can Krishna

melilot:

i'm talking about a mental,physical, and spitiual relationship with more than one other person Red Deer

Murta:

it shouldn't Red Deer

WysteriaMoon:

gotcha Raven

RED DEER:

Murta - I meant, are people talking poly relationship but only two in bed at the same time, or multiple lovers all in bed together...

Murta:

meli,,,i have that, hon,,,we r a happy foursome, so to speak,,,

moonListener:

if our

RavenBast:

I can love as many as I wish there is no problem if it is a mutual disision

PAniteowl:

Well, Red Deer ... define Poly, as I originally asked so that we are all discussing the same aspect

Emer:

I think mostly Poly is the stated feeling by one person but the other expects Mono to come down the line and therefore gets jealous when it does not work that way

RED DEER:

I had PA - polyamory - multiple lovers unless someone else wishes to define it differently

WysteriaMoon:

Loving multiple people, I understand...but what about when it comes to marriage and loving more than one when the other doesn't agree?

melilot:

i'm not saying it isn't possible Murta i'm saying that to commit to a mono then claim your mate is jealous because they don't want to have a poly is a violation of trust

RED DEER:

if someone in the polyamorous relationship doesn't agree, then it doesn't work IMO

Murta:

i understand, meli,,ok

Krishna:

with a true poly ALL parties must agree

RED DEER:

I agree meli

PAniteowl:

ok .. now are we talking everyone have the same lovers in a closed relationship of multiples .. or are we talking about one having a few and the others having a few??

WysteriaMoon:

I expected mono and got poly and was expected to deal with it...trust was violated

melilot:

i know many who are poly who have just as much fun and trials as me in my mono relationships are the same sex is just a small fun thing

Murta:

agreed, Krishna

RavenBast:

but a wife having an afair, that is a problem if the other is kept from it , It should always be a good conversation or their is a problem

moonListener:

if our perfect love and trust eventually takes "us all" to the "goddess", doesnt that require "poly"; to be able to "love" all?. Is sexuality and spirituality not tied?

melilot:

having an affair would not to me be considered poly it is cheating

PAniteowl:

No moon, the act of sex is not our sexuality .. nor is our sexuality our spirituality

RED DEER:

I don't see that as a binding moon... sexuality and spirituality are related, not the same

RavenBast:

I believe sex and love can be kept separate , but don't have to be

WysteriaMoon:

Very true Mel

moonListener:

I think we should try to make them the same.

melilot:

moon i don't need to have sex with everyone i love

Murta:

it is, meli,,,poly, when all agree, is brought to a much higher level,,,hard to explain,,,i am euphoric most of the time,,,

RED DEER:

AYE meli

moonListener:

not that they usually are. lol

PAniteowl:

why Moon?

hehehe ... Meli would be very busy if she did believe that

RavenBast:

I hate kissing the one I love, because it is all meaningful

RED DEER:

I'd like to hear more also moon

melilot:

ROFLMAO wouldn't have any chat time

moonListener:

I agree owl,

moonListener:

because for most... sex is not love.

PAniteowl:

ROFL

Emer:

Ahh, I disagree moon

PAniteowl:

sex without love is like aerobics ...

Emer:

LOL PA

WysteriaMoon:

lol

WICCA101:

LOL

moonListener:

I would like to think that they are synonamous but don't think so.

melilot:

but sex is in most relationships a major thang and i'm sorry but i would prefer to know where his penis has been i really don't want any stray germs coming home

moonListener:

agree.

WysteriaMoon:

Same here, Mel

WysteriaMoon:

I agree on Mono, too....it just feels right

melilot:

so i don't view poly as just wild sex with anyone it involves a commitment just like mono does

RavenBast:

are you guys saying that JFT loved Marylin Menroe

RED DEER:

ah, but a true polyamorous relationship is not permission to paint the town red... it's a committed relationship involving sex between more than 2 people

Krishna:

there is such a thing as a mono poly

WysteriaMoon:

but I can love more than one emotionally & spiritually

RED DEER:

gmta meli

PAniteowl:

I love a number of people .. some of them are here tonight .. I have sex with one I love ..

RavenBast:

ooppss JFK loved Marrylin

melilot:

the rest of us you just invade our brains

Murta:

yes there is, Krishna

Emer:

Yes Krishna, I call it Serial Monogamy

RED DEER:

unless someone can prove that Jaqueline knew and approved, that was CHEATING, not polyamory bast

PAniteowl:

Yes Krishna .. it's an exclusive group committment

Murta:

exactly, PA

Krishna:

I know you can have a mono poly .... for Devi and I do

moonListener:

a responsible group, we hope.

WysteriaMoon:

So polyamory is known by both partners, right?

RavenBast:

I totally agree but Jackie knew about it

melilot:

but she didn't approve raven

PAniteowl:

It would have to be Wyst

WysteriaMoon:

<.....catching on

melilot:

i don't remember her ever joining jfk and mm

RavenBast:

If I remember correctly, she had affairs of her own

PAniteowl:

Otherwise, it would be just plain "fooling around"

RED DEER:

that don't make for a polyamorous relationship bast...

melilot:

so they were both cheating unless they had agreed to an "open" marrage

RED DEER:

that's just 2 folk cheating

Murta:

he was just a cheater, folks,,,

RED DEER:

or like meli said

PAniteowl:

yep Red Deer

moonListener:

and I dont consider "fooling around" to be relationships anyway. :)

Murta:

mono poly is wonderful

melilot:

one of many in this world Murta

Krishna:

if you want to know how a mono poly works I can explain

Murta:

please tell them, Krishna

RED DEER:

someone help me with a definition... mono poly doesn't make sense to me

melilot:

does it involve chocolate sauce and whipped cream Krishna

stardancer9:

please do, KRISHNA

Murta:

listen to Krishna, Red Deer

PAniteowl:

for you Murta .. I'm glad it works .. for me ... I would naturally have to kill off the others

RavenBast:

I never said he wasnt,I said he didnt love MM

Krishna:

ok............give me the floor for a min

WysteriaMoon:

I'm the same as owl...once I'm committed it's with only one

RED DEER:

I personally wonder whether someone who can't maintain a stable relationship without serial affairs - as JFK had - CAN love

Murta:

not yet, meli,,,

RED DEER:

PLEASE note, stable does NOT - in my book - exclude poly

Murta:

:-)

melilot:

oh sure they can Red Deer just the person they can love is only themself

RavenBast:

love and lust are separate things

PAniteowl:

hmmmm ... maybe I should change my name to Spider, as in Black Widow

RED DEER:

that's not love in my book meli

Murta:

Red Deer,,,allow Krishna to explain mono poly, please? u will understand when he is finished

moonListener:

can you have poly but only with a fixed "group"

WysteriaMoon:

Yea...Krishna...explain!

RED DEER:

go for it Krishna...

moonListener:

would that be mono poly?

melilot:

Red Deer i don't think poly would determine stable or unstable i think those involved in any relationship either make it stable or not

RavenBast:

please let the person explain, guys

Krishna:

most of you know Devi and I are very commited to each other

RED DEER:

that's what I said meli...

FOLKS - Krishna has the floor

PAniteowl:

yes Krishna

RavenBast:

I just met you

Krishna:

but we have a mono poly relationship we have a relationship with another couple... and we have the love and trust in each other

Eve'sApple:

good for you Krishna

RavenBast:

that sounds nice

Murta:

it is

Krishna:

and we 4 do not go outside of our 4 some

WysteriaMoon:

How long has it been like this for you?

melilot:

but wouldn't that be a poly relationship?

stardancer9:

What, besides sex, does the other couple provide you?

RavenBast:

is the other couple married?

RED DEER:

that is my definition of a poly relationship Krishna

Krishna:

we came into this because the husband of the other is in a wheel chair and can not do certain things ... could not fill certain needs

Murta:

emotional support intimes of need, star among other things

RavenBast:

so what about Devi?

stardancer9:

and why does sex need to enter into emotional support?

PAniteowl:

uh ... wait Krishna .. does that mean only you get to play???

melilot:

star sex is just a small part of what is involved in a relationship

Murta:

no, PA,,,we ALL play

Krishna:

we care fo each other deeply and help each other through bad times .... sex is not the only reason

no every one plays

RavenBast:

are you friends with her lover?

PAniteowl:

what about Devi .. how does this benefit her?

Krishna:

we all take care of each other in every way

stardancer9:

do you all live together?

Krishna:

because Murta is her best friend

Murta:

and it ain't just sex anymore,,,,,

RavenBast:

I wish I could be in that situation

Murta:

not yet, star

moonListener:

sounds blessed to me.

Murta:

it is very, moon

melilot:

i have no problem with poly relationships it is when i've committed to a mono and do not wish to change that problems will occur

moonListener:

: )

Eve'sApple:

{{{{{{{{{{{{Krishna n Murta}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Krishna:

we all love and trust each other with our lives

WysteriaMoon:

I agree with Mel, too

RavenBast:

I wish you four the brightest of blessings

stardancer9:

is that to say that you hope to at some point, Murta

Murta:

only if u let them, meli,,,if u both can't agree,,,yes there will b problems

Eve'sApple:

The problem is that people confuse sex with love

Emer:

That is a great relationship you have with each other, did you ever have anything like it before?

WysteriaMoon:

Very true Murta

melilot:

no Murta there will be divorce

Murta:

we shall, star,,,in the future,,,

LOL, meli,,,

RavenBast:

does Devi have sex with him?

stardancer9:

You sound hopeful and encouraged, good luck to you all

WysteriaMoon:

Krishna & Murta, I'm glad that you have found something you are comfortable with...and something you gain much from including friendship

Krishna:

no not till we meet Murta and her hubby

melilot:

i will not stay with someone who would violate my trust because chances are he's going to do what he wants

Krishna:

yes she does

Eve'sApple:

My husband and I have an open relationship.

WysteriaMoon:

Krishna, how long has these been for all 4 of you?

RavenBast:

but Krishna is not violating trust they all trust each other

Murta:

exactly, bast,,,

Krishna:

I have never violated Devi's trust she is part of everything we do as a group

RavenBast:

thanks

Eve'sApple:

and meli, he doesn't go behind my back, because he doesn't have to

WysteriaMoon:

<..............CLASS IN SESSION............>

melilot:

i do have a problem with open marrages my problem is they had better use condoms

Murta:

i would die for Krishna and Devi and they would de for us,,,

Krishna:

about 3 months as a group

xSIOUXSIEx:

MM Thor...

Eve'sApple:

meli, you don't have to screw to have sex

Emer:

I think that those of you in the open relationships have it set, there is no lost trust because everything is openly expressed and accepted......

RavenBast:

MURTA are you one of the 4?

melilot:

you might not eve's but it is one of my favorite pass time

Murta:

pay attention, bast,,,yes

{S}

Krishna:

it is not an open marriage it is a true mono poly we do only what we as a group feel is right for all

BloodyTears:

SIOUXSIE SIOUX!

stardancer9:

ooo, but it is SOOO GOOD THAT WAY Evie!

xSIOUXSIEx:

Bloody!!!!!!!!!

Emer:

The problem occurs when people are not open or someone does not accept

Eve'sApple:

meli, does that mean you have to screw everyone you meet?

RavenBast:

It was like a 180 to my brain

Murta:

lol, bast

WysteriaMoon:

LOL

Murta:

gang,,,we r a mono 4some, so to speak,,,

RavenBast:

I can get quite slow at times

melilot:

no that means i make love with my husband because that is the commitment i made before i commited to him i had sex with anything with a cute butt and a nice penis that was single

Eve'sApple:

I like that, Murta

Murta:

we don't stray from each other at all,,,

RED DEER:

again Krishna, that's just straight poly...

Krishna:

and what we do as a group stays behind closed doors.... in public we only hug and kiss our mate

stardancer9:

LOL meli

Eve'sApple:

well, I make love with my husband and my lover, and that's all, no others

Murta:

but Red Deer,,,it is a monogamous poly relationship,,,don't u see?

Eve'sApple:

My husband and my lover are good friends they hug and appreciate each other

melilot:

as long as everything is agreed to between all parties eve's there is nothing wrong with it when it is not it's cheating

Emer:

Krishna or Murta did you ever run into problems where one of the people in the group got jealous of who chose whom to be their "mate"

Krishna:

not really Red Deer for I have seen some polys that the partners change from time to time

RED DEER:

no Krishna... you're redefining the words.

PAniteowl:

Well Eve .. you also screw everyone they've been with ... I hope you use strong protection

RED DEER:

monogamous means ONLY two people in a relationship

Eve'sApple:

they are both faithful to me, owl

Murta:

only once, emer,,,but after we all talked it out,,,we all understtod why,,,and now it is way cool

Krishna:

ok Red Deer but that is what we call it

PAniteowl:

.. and the check is in the mail ....

RED DEER:

rofl

Emer:

Ahh, that is a great understanding.

Eve'sApple:

go ahead and laugh, perhaps you are jealous of what I have

Murta:

we thinks o, emer,,,

WysteriaMoon:

ROFL

Murta:

communication is the key to a mono poly relationshitp,,,

PAniteowl:

hehehe ... nope Eve ... not a bit ... mazeltof

melilot:

perhaps we really don't care who you sleep with eve's it is your life dear

WysteriaMoon:

Eve, does your lover have another? other than just you?

RavenBast:

my B-F is always being hurt becaue He can't understand that I cant settle with just him

Eve'sApple:

no, he's married, but hasn't slept with wife in 22 years

RED DEER:

<--- doesn't think jealousy is the issue... could be poly if I wanted as well, but I've chosen another path

Emer:

Polyamory use to be the norm until Partiarchy took hold

Krishna:

At first it was hard for us to understand what we had .... but you have to talk and trust each partner

RavenBast:

and I just want the best for him

melilot:

and she agrees to this relationship eve's

RED DEER:

not in every culture Emer... the Celts recognized BOTH polyamorous and monogamous marriages legally

Eve'sApple:

she has no idea, meli, he wanted to leave her and be with me, but he can't do it. we love each other.

WysteriaMoon:

why haven't they had sex in 22 years?

Mercedes77:

and befor Utah joined the union, polyamory was legal there, too.

Emer:

The Celts were a Matriarchal group

melilot:

so he is cheating on her and you are aiding him in this

Eve'sApple:

it's not the way I wanted it, but there is no other choice, BTW, we live in UTAH

RED DEER:

and many cultures were polygynous AFTER patriarchal rev - but only the husband could have multiple spouses

RED DEER:

your point Emer?

Emer:

Sorry, I was regrouping my ideas and didn`t finish RD

RavenBast:

Murta does Devi sleep with you husband\lover?

Eve'sApple:

meli, he fell in love with me and asked me to marry him, he was going to leave her, but is afraid of what it will do to his family, they are MORMON

Krishna:

the onjly way a poly works is if ALL parties involved are agree upon what is the limits of the relationship

melilot:

otto just said i'm only allowed one husband cause that's what i agreed to when we made the contract

Murta:

bast,,,Devi and i r both bi,,,we r in love and we all share

everything, hon,,,

Mercedes77:

yep. utah.

Emer:

Well, my point was going to be similar to you RD and I totally lost my train of thought about the Celtic thing

melilot:

excuses eve's that's all those are

RED DEER:

so it goes, Emer

RavenBast:

oh I just heard the part of could satisfy you

RavenBast:

nt satisfy

Murta:

i know,,,is all that was said,,,

Eve'sApple:

don't need an excuse to love someone

Murta:

is how it started, really,,,

WysteriaMoon:

Eve, and your husband is okay with this?

Krishna:

in the poly we have with Murta and her hubby has in NO WAY changed the way she and I feel for each other.... our love is still just as strong

Eve'sApple:

yes, He knows everytime I see my lover

Murta:

none of us ever thought it would ever blossom to the point that it has, bast,,,

WysteriaMoon:

Eve, does your lover's wife know about you?

RavenBast:

oh ok

Murta:

i think it still gets stronger every day, Krishna,,,

RavenBast:

oh and call me whit of whitney

WysteriaMoon:

Murta, you & Krishna have a strong bond I can see

Murta:

so true, WM,,,a love that cannot be expalined at all,,,

Krishna:

Red Deer now that you know our lifestyle .... do we still fit in with you all?

Mercedes77:

mm

PAniteowl:

Sure it can Murta .. you just did

RavenBast:

I believe so

WysteriaMoon:

I think so

moonListener:

me too

Murta:

well, only kind of, PA,,,

RED DEER:

Krishna... I think your's & Devi's choices are your own... you still fit in with me!

WysteriaMoon:

it's an agreed kind of thing....many blessings Murta & Krishna

RavenBast:

I think humans are poly creatures , poly in all aspects

PAniteowl:

Murta .. don't underestimate our understanding .. even if it is not spelled out on a cyber screen

WysteriaMoon:

cute owl

Mercedes77:

"if it makes you happy, it can't be that bad" :)

melilot:

Krishna, Murta as long as everything is open and honest between all it is a healty relationship

Murta:

ok, PA,,,i trust ur understanding, hon,,,

Emer:

Krishna your choice of lifestyle really has little meaning to me, I like you any way you would be

Murta:

very healthy, meli,,,

WysteriaMoon:

Murta, it sounds like everyone is being honest and that is very important for trust

Murta:

exactly, WM,,,is of the utmost importance,,,

pagan

RavenBast:

what is the point of love if there is no trust?

Murta:

honesty and communication,,,

WysteriaMoon:

<...........hugs to Murta....

Murta:

no point at all, bast,,,,

<===blush, WM,,,{S}

Emer:

I don`t see how it is possible to truly love without trust

Murta:

agreed, emer

melilot:

raven can there truely be love without trust?

WysteriaMoon:

very true Emer....there has to be trust

Krishna:

our long term goal is to be there for Murta when the healt of her husband warents extra care

Emer:

Oh that is great Krishna

RED DEER:

I agree also Emer, but it sounds like there is plenty of love AND trust in Krishna / Devi / Murta / Murta's husband's relationship

Eve'sApple:

yes, I agree

RavenBast:

you can love the person, but it is impossible to be in love with one you dont trust

Murta:

Krishna,,,i love u guys,,,u and Devi,,,

Emer:

Yup RD

PAniteowl:

Sometimes ... the factor in any relationship is respect and friendship .. if that is there .. then sex, as part of it, is great .. if there is only sex .. that is a sad situation

Krishna:

and we love you to Murta

Murta:

i know, hon

PAniteowl:

IMHO of course

WysteriaMoon:

geez...Murta & Krishna...with the divorce rate as high as it it, it's amazing that you have it beat by 2 extra persons!!!! Atleast you all won't be alone!

RavenBast:

love all you guys

Mercedes77:

PA -- i think it depends on what you want out of the person...

Murta:

LOL, WM

Emer:

Oh boy I feel a love fest coming on

Murta:

we shall see, emer

Eve'sApple:

sex without love is the pits

WysteriaMoon:

You go Murta

Murta:

{S}

PAniteowl:

Well Mercedes .. if we're talking about a long term relationship, I want it ALL!!!

Krishna:

no matter what happens to any of us .... those left will be there to help

RavenBast:

I wouldnt know

Mercedes77:

Emer:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Roomies}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

RavenBast:

hey all you guys ready for my secret?

Murta:

and lemme tell u all,,,it is a great feeling knowing and trusting in what Krishna just said,,,

RED DEER:

I'd say that also depends on what you want Eve - have had plenty of sex without love - when sex ONLY was what me & my lover wanted - and it was NOT the pits

melilot:

you have a tatoo on your bum raven?

RavenBast:

I am only a 14 yr old girl

RavenBast:

not right now

WysteriaMoon:

No, I do Emer...lol

Mercedes77:

What RD said is what I meant, PA.

Murta:

i think the lawyer from NY needs to go, emer,,,

RavenBast:

who is the lawyer?

WysteriaMoon:

yea...me, too, Murta

PAniteowl:

then Raven ... I think you should withdraw from this conversation tonite

Emer:

Yup, that is what I mean Murta

WysteriaMoon:

Cool,...Krishna

RED DEER:

I disagree PA - she may listen and have opinions even if she's not sexually active yet

Murta:

i agree, PA,,,a bit too young for all this

WysteriaMoon:

We don't mess around in here....we stick together

RavenBast:

my Best Friend is not a virgin and I haerd all about all her expiriences

PAniteowl:

then Red Deer .. would you bring your daughters into this conversation as participants?

Murta:

but am sure not at this level, bast,,,true?

Emer:

Raven is welcome to add her feelings, I thought this was open

RavenBast:

I have been here so far havent I?

WysteriaMoon:

go on bast

xSereneMyst:

Why should someone, of ANY age, have to sit down and NOT be able to listen to this? You never know, someone MY age might be going through some of the VERY things you are speaking about NOW.

xSereneMyst:

?

Murta:

yes u have, hon,,,sorry

THORSSON:

Ravens, i am too young for all this! hee hee I am 19 and engaged....

Emer:

LOL Thor

Mercedes77:

:)

Krishna:

this is to adult of a conversation for someone of her age.... don't want to influence her life

Murta:

ok, myst,,,we get the pic, hon,,,

xSereneMyst:

yea.. right.

Mercedes77:

puleeze. If she's old enough to keep up, let her.

RavenBast:

you were being understanding until I said my age I was just being honest like everyone else

Murta:

but she is understanding it, Krishna,,,

WysteriaMoon:

Krishna....it's just knowledge....she may reflect back on it later...when she needs to...if ever

Mercedes77:

yes exactly!

Krishna:

then she is welcome

Murta:

and she is not acxting the foolish teen, hon,,,

Emer:

Well, I hate to say it but she probably knows as much about sex as any of us so why not let her get a feel for what is out there?

Eve'sApple:

I believe I was 19 when I first tried polygamy, welcome, my dear~!!!

RED DEER:

Krishna - I think that bast herself should decide that - not us it seems as though some of us are saying that young folk have no right to think about and discuss their sexuality

Emer:

She has a point that you all listened and welcomed her until she said her age

melilot:

if her parents don't want her exposed to this then they should be watching otherwise let her stay

RavenBast:

I said I am a virgin and this will not make me feel I am old enough for sex or mature enough

WysteriaMoon:

she will decide on her own, Red Deer....or atleast she should for herself

THORSSON:

me I am too young besides... I am generous, if you are freezing hell, I am thick skinned, I will loan you my coat, BUT I will not share my mate with anyone else(as a mate to anyone else)

Murta:

agreed, emer,,,sorry bast,,,sometimes Krishna and i r a little overprotective of teens, hon,,,he hs 2 and i feel as if they r my own,,,stay and enjoy,,,

RED DEER:

that was my point exactly moon

RavenBast:

thank you

Murta:

welcome, hon,,,

Mercedes77:

actually thor, sharing doesn't bother me, so long as everyone is OK with it.

WysteriaMoon:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{RAVEN - WELCOME}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

RavenBast:

(((((((((((((((((((WM)))))))))))))))0

Murta:

and as liberal as we all may think we r,,,sometimes we still r a bit old fashioned, too,,,{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{BAST}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Emer:

Anyways, if youngsters knew more about sex there wouldn`t be so many problems with teen pregnancy

RED DEER:

agreed Emer

Murta:

i agree, emer,,,1000%

WysteriaMoon:

Exactly

Krishna:

as a father of 2 teens I tend to get a little over protective ..... hope no offence was taken

WysteriaMoon:

Knowledge brings wisdom and wise choices

melilot:

not more about sex emer more about birth control

Emer:

::Chuckle:: Though I can`t really call RB a "youngster" `cuz I`m only 7 years older

RavenBast:

true, my friend almost got pregnant and she is only 11 days older than me

Murta:

as a nurse, i strongly agree meli

WysteriaMoon:

whew

PAniteowl:

Oh ... have we said something profound that would teach someone more about sex and pregnancy???

RED DEER:

I consider birth control and disease prevention PART of sex meli

THORSSON:

that is one thing I will not share... anything else, you know i do not care.. but she is choosing to spend her life with me! and I her. maybe as I mature and finally get my head on straight, i

Emer:

Good point mel

Mercedes77:

just more about sex. :)

RED DEER:

{{{{{{{{{Murta}}}}}}}}

<--- is an RN also

Murta:

awwwwwwwwwwwwww,,,{{{{{{{{{{{RED DEER}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} i know,,,{S}

Murta:

am an LPN, tho,,,

RavenBast:

RN?

RED DEER:

no PA, but we have said a lot about life choices, and about how relationships - whether mono or poly - SHOULD work

KindredfIame:

registered nurse

THORSSON:

*might* be okay... we *might* be okay with it...but for now, we have years of exploring each other and getting to know one another before we can think of "swinging"

RavenBast:

oh ok

RED DEER:

nurse = nurse

Emer:

<--Is getting into developmental Psychology so I could use any of your ideas

Murta:

bless u, Red Deer,,,,some don't think that way,,,am glad u don't

PAniteowl:

Thanks Red Deer I thought I'd missed something

Emer:

Eh I think the class is slowing

melilot:

your a tad older than most teenagers Red Deer most of them know more about sex befoer they ever hear of birthcontrol

RED DEER:

I don't believe in making others' choices for them Murta - I just expect others' choices not to harm ME

Emer:

I was going to log off

THORSSON:

it is all my fault... the second I speak, the room dies

Mercedes77:

it's wonderful that you plan on marrying, thor.

RED DEER:

I'm not too old to remember meli

RavenBast:

I think it has become more of aa discussion than a class

Murta:

good for u, Red Deer,,,

Murta:

why, bast?

RED DEER:

it started out as a discussion bast... many of our classes are focused open discussions rather than lectures

Krishna:

what we have is not for everyone .... but it is very special to us

RavenBast:

we are just talking now

Emer:

Oh, I`m not leaving I was just logging what was said

RavenBast:

I have been to @ 10

RED DEER:

aye folks, I officially declare Wicca 101 closed - but PLEASE, continue the conversation as you will

Krishna:

and it does fit in with what we beleive .... love and life