Stoormii:

What's the class subject tonight?

Red Deer:

Open discussion of the Elements, the Quarters and their relationships Stoormii

Emer:

Humm, good topic Red Deerie :)

Stoormii:

great

Red Deer:

Nymue's idea Emer...

Grey Myst:

May I ask then, do all the elements need to be balanced within a person for them to be balanced?

Raven Bast:

Do familiars help with contacting the watchtowers?

Red Deer:

OK folk, since it seems some are chomping at the bit, let's get going

MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE?

melilot:

chomp chomp chomp

Raven Bast:

got mine

moonListener:

me 2

MafiaMama3:

{===paying attention here

Emer:

Go ahead Red Deerie

Raven Bast:

start already

Red Deer:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

5) Tonight, we be having an open discussion of the Elements, the Quarters and their relationships...

What are the elements, and how many do folk recognize?

Grey Myst:

{--- I know I know

Red Deer:

don't have to raise hand... is open discussion.

Grey Myst:

oh

Trollfrog:

earth...air...fire...water...

MafiaMama3:

Please remember that I have no idea what you r talking about, please have patience

Grey Myst:

there are five elements

Red Deer:

four elements?

Raven Bast:

I keep forgetting except N is mother and earth, S is fire E is wind and W is water

MafiaMama3:

i will learn

Carielle:

earth, air, fire, water, spirit

Grey Myst:

Fire, Earth, Air, Water, and Spirit

WiseWitch:

{---- was at workshop yesterday on sexual positions for each element.

Red Deer:

excellent... but let's finish with the elements before the quarters

melilot:

well i recognize fire when it burns the heck outta something water when it puts it out air when the breezes blow and dirt when the dog rolls in it spirit from when i open my mouth

Grey Myst:

and most Wiccans recognize all, and most humans do too, only on an unconscious level

Red Deer:

interesting WW - perhaps after everyone is up to speed on the elements themselves?

Grey Myst:

I recognize fire in the passion I have for good music, or when I create

WiseWitch:

Sure, Red Deerie!

Red Deer:

what do the elements themselves represent to us?

WiseWitch:

Air - the mind, ideas, inspiration

Grey Myst:

hmmm, the simple makeup of what we use to do our magick?

Emer:

Air is my strongest, I feel freedom and inspiration

Red Deer:

aye WW

Red Deer:

someone go for fire, earth, water?

Grey Myst:

Fire- creation, passion, rage, Red

WiseWitch:

Fire - the Magical Will, passion, passion, passion, passion

Emer:

Water- emotion and creativity

Grey Myst:

Water - emotions

Stoormii:

FIRE for me energy

Grey Myst:

Earth- material things, the body, our possessions and health

Carielle:

For me....earth is the physical, strength, steadiness, endurance

Trollfrog:

earth...nurture

melilot:

fire is the wild free youthfulness which burns it's self out quickly but was worth it

Carielle:

fire.....the creative side of life, passion, intensity

Grey Myst:

to me water is the nurturer.... like the amniotic fluid

Trollfrog:

fire...passion

Grey Myst:

fire... heat, extremes

Sigmarachnar:

well i have always associated water with emotions

Stoormii:

i disagree fire is the purest form of Will and true will never burns out

Emer:

Air- the uncontrollable freedom

Trollfrog:

water...healing

Grey Myst:

so have I Sig

Carielle:

water....emotions, calmness, gentleness

Grey Myst:

yes troll... and healing

Trollfrog:

air.... knowledge/wisdom

Red Deer:

OK... so we've got basic ideas of associations for the elements...

Carielle:

air....the intellect, reason, knowledge

Grey Myst:

yup

Red Deer:

how do we correspond these to the four quarters?

WiseWitch:

But passion, like fire, must be fed. And fire burns forever in the worlds beyond'

melilot:

i like fire {EG} it's my friend

Emer:

Yeah

Stoormii:

water = insight serenity intuition

MafiaMama3:

are the elements different things for different people?

Red Deer:

not usually mama...

MafiaMama3:

ok

melilot:

not different things they bring forth different feelings

Grey Myst:

Well, I was taught, north=earth, south=water, east=air and west=fire

MafiaMama3:

i see, meli

Red Deer:

all know of the four material elements, all should know of the fifth - spirit

Star Luna:

north=earth, south=fire, east=air, west=water

Stoormii:

each element works with the others

Red Deer:

well, myst, that's different from the traditional system I learned

Grey Myst:

I got west and south mixed up

Red Deer:

luna... that's what most sources cite

Grey Myst:

sorry

Star Luna:

:)

Stoormii:

to maintain the whole

Carielle:

I also use North=earth, East=air, West=water, South=fire, Center=spirit

WiseWitch:

The DIRECTIONS tend to differ, but the elements seem to correspond to the same things

Red Deer:

but what MAKES for the correspondences

Grey Myst:

oh, and the center of the circle is the Spirit

Red Deer:

???

Grey Myst:

I usually think of the types of earth

Carielle:

For me, it's almost geographical...to the west is the Gulf of Mexico (water)

Emer:

To me heat usually generates from the south, at least in this area of the country

Grey Myst:

You know, the types of personality the earth has

Star Luna:

north is darkest...earth...east=air..sunrise...west=water..sun sets into water....

moonListener:

traditionally, weren't they the geographic directions of those things in europe?

Carielle:

To the North, most of the land (earth)

Stoormii:

and the four physical elements are all balanced by the fifth (or the first if you will) Spirit

Carielle:

South, the equator...hot, hot, hot {G}

Red Deer:

aye moonlistener - WESTERN Europe

Carielle v:

and east falls to air

melilot:

well north the equator in some places cari {G}

moonListener:

yes.

Carielle:

while spirit is everywhere

Grey Myst:

for me, to the west is the Pacific, the East is europe and Asia where philosophy began, the south is the desert of the US and the north is the Midwest of America

Red Deer:

living on the eastern seaboard, I find the great water to my East, rather than west however

Carielle:

actually, I wanted to ask about that....are there any aussies or others south of the equator around? Does it make a difference?

Red Deer:

so, are folk saying that we should lay out our quarters based on local geography?

Grey Myst:

well Red Deer, I hear that south of the equator, Wiccans do the elements and directional equivalent differently

Red Deer:

yes, Cari - they do everything contra to us

Grey Myst:

And I was told to do whatever suited best in the situation

moonListener:

so at my circle... they aren't arranged by news, but where they are at my circle.... water is near my creek... air is down the valley, earth is the mountain side, etc...

Red Deer:

north=fire, south earth, etc

Grey Myst:

yeah

Carielle:

I find it makes sense to me to do it that way....but others may not agree.

Red Deer:

do people recognize that local geographic determination is NOT the teaching of most Witches?

Sigmarachnar:

i say if it works for you go for it (concerning witch direction pertains to what element)

Arcadia:

Red Deer, I think that geographical location can be very important in the energy raised in a circle

Grey Myst:

Cari, I met some Aussie Wiccans in Europe

Red Deer:

agreed totally, Arc

Grey Myst:

yes, Red Deer

Emer:

I guess it just goes to how you, personally, connect the element to the quarter

Red Deer:

I ask because if there are many new to the Craft here, and we proceed with a "whatever works" discussion, they won't get much of the historical grounding of it

MafiaMama3:

agreed, Red Deer

Emer:

Good point Red Deer

MafiaMama3:

i am kinda lost

Carielle:

agreed Red Deer

moonListener:

{-- ignorant.. but they seemed to fit that way. and the trees seem to like it.

Grey Myst:

well, to me, water is always west, no matter where I am, because my home is in CA, where the water is west

Grey Myst:

I get confused when in Boston

Red Deer:

Would anyone disagree with this statement of the TRADITIONAL correspondences? {BR}

east = air{BR}

south = fire{BR}

west = water{BR}

north = earth{BR}

center = spirit?

Arcadia:

{----agrees

Grey Myst:

Sure Red Deer

Stoormii:

I think that keeping to the traditional methods are best for beginnings but, as we progress in wisdom

melilot:

that's the way i learned them Red Deery

Red Deer:

and this is a beginnings class Stoormii

Grey Myst:

if I lived where water was on the east, then I would change the direction

Emer:

I agree, though I do know of other groups that see things differently, that is the way I go

Red Deer:

I'm not asking folk to practice this way, just to be aware of the traditional ideas and their rationale.

Grey Myst:

the desert is also south of me, so it's fire

Carielle:

Red Deer, I wouldn't disagree

Stoormii:

our perceptions of Mother's Expressions alters

Grey Myst:

{--- bit of an eclectic whatever works Wiccan

Red Deer:

OK - well then, WHY is Earth in the North? and so on...

Grey Myst:

it's personal for me

melilot:

see i do it a little different grey {G} where ever the fire is is south where ever the water is is west

Emer:

For beginning the "traditional" way is great. Later you get a feel for what is right for you

Grey Myst:

I think of the fields of the midwest or the great forests of the pacific northwest

Red Deer:

myst... I asked that we discuss the TRADITIONAL correspondences first, and to that addressed my question

Arcadia:

polarity

Grey Myst:

LOL Mel

Stoormii:

historically europeans would have seen craggy peaks or bare earth in the north and thus associated the element with that direction

Grey Myst:

I'm just lucky in that, where my home, my heart's and spirit's home, is corresponds with the trad teachings

Emer:

I hate to say it but I was taught that way so Im just gonna stay a bit quiet now :)

Grey Myst:

Stormii, what if you WERE North?

Stoormii:

warm wind come from the south bringing energy

Emer:

I can't think of anything useful

melilot:

you'd be sitting on the north pole and that would hurt grey

Grey Myst:

LOL I meant in Europe

Red Deer:

warm sea currents come to western Europe from the equatorial Atlantic (south){BR}

aye myst

Stoormii:

the cold winds would have still laid bare the ground itself

Red Deer:

the waters themselves were to the west

Grey Myst:

Red Deer, what did the Norse pagans believe?

Red Deer:

the sun rose into the sky (air) from the east

Grey Myst:

Aren't we working of a Celtic ideal?

Red Deer:

not certain myst... any Asatru here?

Stoormii:

and most rain storms tend to move from west to east

Red Deer:

nope... the Celts did not use the elements and directions as Witchcraft does

Stoormii:

yes, me

Grey Myst:

because the Norse were in the North and therefore why would earth be north when the arctic waters were here?

melilot:

instead of looking at bodies of water and mountains lets look at weather patterns

Red Deer:

are the nordic correspondences different Stoormii?

Grey Myst:

interesting Red Deer, that's not what I learned about the Celts but that is neither here nor there

Emer:

Very good point mel

Red Deer:

yes meli?

Stoormii:

not by much

Grey Myst:

okay

Stoormii:

most of our nordic ancestors settled on the southern areas of iceland

melilot:

since most were dependent upon weather more than anything else they may have chosen by weather patterns

Grey Myst:

true

Stoormii:

thus the mountainous regions would still have been north

Emer:

True

Grey Myst:

but then what weather would be north?

Red Deer:

cold?

melilot:

winter storms come from the north west summer from the south west

Grey Myst:

and is cold equated with earth?

melilot:

dig into the earth it is cold

Arcadia:

Magnetic North= grounding=earth (for me) then the opposites (polarity) falls into place......a different concept I admit

melilot:

yet full of life

Stoormii:

Arctic winds that uncovered the earth itself were to the north

Red Deer:

and the hyperboreal forests were believed to be north... the "ultimate" earth

Grey Myst:

but there is air AND earth in that Stormii

melilot:

as the polar caps melted the earth was exposed

Emer:

Humm but a very valid point Arcadia. Our ancestors did know of polarity and used it

cymbaline:

actually if you dig into the earth the further you will go it will be hotter because the you will be closer to the magma in the center of the earth

Stoormii:

seasonal changes brought the suns warmth from the south

Grey Myst:

true, the lay lines and crossroads

melilot:

cym they didn't have tools to dig that far dear

Red Deer:

don't think any witches ever dug that deep cymbaline

Grey Myst:

LOL

moonListener:

only after a point cym

Red Deer:

aye moon... it gets colder first

cymbaline:

ohh ok

moonListener:

ever been in a coal mine?

Stoormii:

wet weather patterns and the most accessible parts of the sea were to the west

Grey Myst:

yes, and it was hot, so were all the caves I've been in

melilot:

grey it wasn't the caves it was who you was with {G}

Red Deer:

{--- never been in a hot cave, at our latitude most stay around 52 degrees all year

Grey Myst:

I understand South, West, and East, based on all of what has been presented. But I've always had a prob with North and now is no exception{BR}

Why is North, Earth?

Sigmarachnar:

i live in florida, what caves

Red Deer:

did you catch my comment about hyperborea myst?

Grey Myst:

LOL mel{BR}

Sig, it was a cave in Monaco

melilot:

well when the ice caps covered the world there was very little earth exposed when they melted earth was exposed and it was exposed to the NORTH

Grey Myst:

no Red Deer

melilot:

cause you couldn't live on the ice cap {G}

Grey Myst:

But that's water to me... the water *brings* the earth. I mean what makes Earth dominant in the North?

melilot:

the water is what melted what was exposed was earth the water ran into the oceans

Stoormii:

Grey, those ice caps were solid

Red Deer:

ancient Europe, for the most part, believed that "behind the north wind" lay the Land of Ancient Trees... the Earth embodied

Grey Myst:

interacting elements is a must

melilot:

the water left the north the earth stayed

Stoormii:

and when they move towards the south they pushed up mountains

Grey Myst:

the ice caps weren't solid when they melted and I think people were smart enough to figure out that water had a few forms

Red Deer:

So, why should we at least *understand* the traditional correspondences, and what makes it OK to change them?

melilot:

but if you were looking for land to farm you would look north to the freshly exposed land

Grey Myst:

okay Red Deer, but *why* did they believe that? Out of all the places to put the forest, why North?

Red Deer:

prob meli... there wasn't agriculture yet...

Stoormii:

i think that seeing those mountains practically grow before their eyes would be enough to convince early people

Red Deer:

hidden perhaps... perhaps the vision of some ancient Witch who *saw* clear 'round the circle - over the north pole and back to the equator?

melilot:

the ones who saw it that lived threw it i doubt that if mountains start springing up in my back yard i'd be around to tell the tale

Grey Myst:

Stormii, I don't disagree with the placement of earth, but the mountains going up that fast?

Grey Myst:

I'm afraid I don't believe in the cataclysmal theory

Red Deer:

it didn't happen that fast stoormii...

Stoormii:

every year people would have seen new land "growing" in the north

moonListener:

maybe north was the only place left to put earth.. the other directions were already taken?

Grey Myst:

LOL

Red Deer:

even the most rapidly rising mountains have only risen at the rate of tens of feet per year - unless volcanic

moonListener:

not a joke

Grey Myst:

Okay, I admit, I am a dunce when it comes to the Earth element. I am much stronger in all the other three, fire being the strongest

Red Deer:

perhaps, but I believe there were good reasons which may not now seem clear to us...

Grey Myst:

Maybe the forests were thickest in the North

Red Deer:

just because we can't figure it out in 30 minutes conversation, I wouldn't assume the ancients couldn't

Stoormii:

plate tectonics show that there was volcanic activity

Grey Myst:

moon, I've thought that many times before and that's why I laughed

melilot:

i think we are heading to far back i don't really think the ancients viewed the directions and the elements in connection as we do they would have pointed to the north and said earth lies that way

Grey Myst:

even volcanic activity doesn't alter that much land that fast

moonListener:

did it have to do with what had already been or not been explored?

Red Deer:

excellent point meli

Grey Myst:

The worst earthquake recorded only moved the earth 23 feet

Stoormii:

oh yes it does

Red Deer:

so what does all this have to do with OUR practice of the Craft anyway?

Stoormii:

here in hawaii there are new islands growing even as we speak

melilot:

we now associate the elements and directions based on what they did it may really have no direct connection with what is in ours

MafiaMama3:

i disagree, myst, look at the volcano is hawaii, more land now than ever on the big island, happening fast, too

Grey Myst:

yes, but slowly Stormii... slowly on the earth level, not human level

melilot:

mafia and look to the extending ice flows to the north we are losing more each day

Grey Myst:

of course we would think 10 feet would be a lot

Sigmarachnar:

this may sound really weird but, those in England migrated there from somewhere else, two groups one that came from mainland and the ones(from this group came the mages) that were brought

Red Deer:

mama - volcanism operates on an entirely different time scale than plate uplift - which is what folk were discussing is FAST - mountains in a lifetime...

Stoormii:

slowly yes, but you can see changes year to year

Grey Myst:

okay

Red Deer:

even the most rapid uplift takes thousands of years to make mountains

MafiaMama3:

gotcha Red Deer

Grey Myst:

Sig, do you think migration in england was affected by the "seven waves" of Irish migration?

Sigmarachnar:

through a gateway to northern englend and traveled south to find better conditions , there fore those that were there remember they came from the north and why it was said the great forest was to

Grey Myst:

And also, how far back did European peoples go? I know the oldest settlement in Ireland was 6,000BCE

Sigmarachnar:

the north because the gateway was still there which it no longer is finished i guess, if that was too weird just ignore me

Grey Myst:

merely the mesolithic

Perseus ii:

cromagnon man in europe 40000 years ago at least

Grey Myst:

okay...

Red Deer:

I THOUGHT THE TOPIC WAS ELEMENTS AND QUARTERS?

Stoormii:

if the northern people had notice even small changes in the landscape they would have given them reason to believe that the earth itself grew from that direction

Sigmarachnar:

sorry

Grey Myst:

Red Deer... where do we get our beliefs of the elements?

Red Deer:

60,000 year old implements found in Iceland Perseus

Grey Myst:

Red Deer, we were talking about it. the origins of the elemental beliefs and what people might have found to connect the elements

Red Deer:

someone *discovered* them... where does any element of belief, in the Craft, come from?

Grey Myst:

oh, I've traced a lot of belief in Wicca back and found it was total BS

melilot:

well my beliefs in the elements comes from childhood

Red Deer:

tell us more please meli

Perseus ii:

what do you believe about the elements?

melilot:

south was were it was warm north was were it was cold rain came from the west nice breezes came from the east but then things are simple as a child {G}

Sigmarachnar:

simplicity is sometimes the best answer

Grey Myst:

Mel I can accept that

Red Deer:

{--- thinks things are simple as a Witch, too

melilot:

south must be close to the element of fire north to earth west to water and east to air since these are the things they embody

PAniteowl:

{G} Yep Red Deer {G}

Grey Myst:

my prob is tying these beliefs back to a specific time and type of living in Europe

Red Deer:

works well for me meli... I'm much the same way and have always lived in the same general area, so my climate hasn't been drastically altered since childhood

Stoormii:

it's not so different if you think of ancient people as humanities children

melilot:

i don't try to do that grey i have to tie them to me today what the ancients did is nice to know but not something needed

Mitote:

{smile}

Grey Myst:

but Stormii, that is a misconception

Stoormii:

not really

Grey Myst:

Paleolithic man was as capable as we are today

melilot:

the ancients did what was needed for the time they lived in

Red Deer:

we are their children Stoormii

Grey Myst:

Yes it is, I hate the idea of "savage" man

melilot:

probably more so grey he could live off the land few today could

Grey Myst:

true Mel

Red Deer:

they had every bit the intellect that we do, and perhaps MORE

Perseus ii:

I'm sure they had much more time to learn wisdom, we don't

Grey Myst:

We don't need to figure out to survive so we have free time to do other things

Stoormii:

consider that as we grow from children into adolescence we tend to over complicate thing and how kids often see things more clearly than adults do

Grey Myst:

true Red Deer

Carielle:

Perseus...I think perhaps they valued it more.......

Arcadia:

I think that the Ancients had both a rhyme and reason for their beliefs in the elements, it worked for them, and is still sound logic in today's world, ie:agriculture, weather, etc

Stoormii:

in many ways children are wiser than grown ups

melilot:

but grey could that be why it is so much harder for people to get close to the universe? we have time to search but we don't spend it actually "diggin in the dirt" so to speak

Grey Myst:

Yes, but children also see things more simply because they don't know enough to complicate things. I think humans have always been different cult creatures

Red Deer:

aye, except they often fail to see shades of gray... mostly blacks and whites

Sigmarachnar:

I say if you can not put it into a nutshell you do not understand it

Grey Myst:

exactly Red Deer

Stoormii:

as humanity "grew up" we lost much of that precious wisdom

Grey Myst:

and gained a new kind... it's a kind of valuation I don't believe in

Freed Soul:

If mankind cannot explain it, mankind fears it.

Red Deer:

I rather think we're going through a stormy adolescence as a race, and as we poise upon the brink of young adulthood, we're beginning to see past black & white not only to gray but to technicolor

Grey Myst:

"the good old days" are a myth, it's as bad as antediluvian Paradise stories

Red Deer:

Mama is calling us home

MafiaMama3:

i am not, LOL

Carielle:

Sigma, I disagree...there are many concepts that cannot be simplified into a simple statement without losing the vast meaning of it

Grey Myst:

I agree with Cari

Stoormii:

perhaps, but as mel said the simple associations of childhood make a lot of sense in wiccan

PAniteowl:

agree Cari {G}

Sigmarachnar:

ehh

Grey Myst:

oversimplifying is as tricky as over-complicating

Carielle:

:)

Red Deer:

IMO, to experience is simple, to explain damn near impossible

PAniteowl:

{G}

Red Deer:

so it is with the elements

Grey Myst:

LOL, Red Deer

Red Deer:

with the quarters... with the circles we cast

Carielle:

exactly, Red Deer!

Red Deer:

and the great circle of the Wheel, much less with our Goddesses and Gods

Grey Myst:

Red Deer, what about circles that don't use the four corners?

Red Deer:

I didn't know circles had corners myst {g}

Perseus ii:

ancient man's rituals and myths work well for people, they endured with men for thousands of years. Our way of living in the modern world is a new experiment, not good for the human mind.

Stoormii:

what about the color associations?

melilot:

depends on who's doing the casting Red Deery {G}

Grey Myst:

You know what I mean... the four "watch towers"

Red Deer:

aye... just kidding.

Grey Myst:

What about circles that don't use those?

PAniteowl:

The Medicine wheel uses "stages", but it translates to the same ideology

Red Deer:

are there examples you have in mind?

Grey Myst:

The Maiden, Mother, Crone Circle and the equivalent for the God, all depending on why and what they are used for

Stoormii:

why is red connected with fire when most flame are yellow?

moonListener:

5 "cornered" circles where the "spirit" is at the top or "head"

Grey Myst:

I've used the Maiden Mother Crone Circle for full moon circles before

moonListener:

like a pentagram

Grey Myst:

aye, and as moonlistener says

moonListener:

uh oh

melilot:

cause when the sun burns you ya turn RED

Carielle:

Stoormi.....perhaps because of the association with passion, intensity, and all that...both are associated with those concepts

Grey Myst:

red is the color of passion and heat

Stoormii:

he he he Fair enough

Red Deer:

If we look through a catalog of Witches' talismans, we find all of the above - circles with inscribed triangles, squares, pentagrams, hexagrams, etc..

Carielle:

Personally I LIKE red {EG}

Stoormii:

yellow for air?

Sigmarachnar:

why is it the color of passion and heat

Red Deer:

and so on at least to triscadecagrams

moonListener:

spectrally red is on one end... cool blue on the other???

melilot:

cause when you get sexually excited sig you flush

Grey Myst:

well, when you burn yourself, it turns red, if it's not a bad burn

PAniteowl:

Sig .. why is the sky blue? .. How deep is the Ocean, daddy?

Red Deer:

My bet would be we've used all of them for some type of circle casting in our past

melilot:

well moon when you get frost bite you turn blue

Grey Myst:

the sky is blue because that is the light prism color the atmosphere reflects of the sun's rays

Red Deer:

sig - when you are passionate, including angry, what color do you *SEE*?

Sigmarachnar:

what's your point nightowl

Cloudburst:

Stormii, I know a group or two that use red (for sunrise, I think) in the east, with air associations, and yellow for fire. Matter of preference, I suppose....

Sigmarachnar:

i do not see a color

moonListener:

maybe cause our red blood rises during excitation?

Red Deer:

but why does it happen that way myst?

PAniteowl:

Thought I'd help you out with the rest of the questions, Sig {G}

Red Deer:

ever heard a very old expression... "to see red?"

melilot:

cause the Goddess and God made it that way Red Deery!

Grey Myst:

the atmosphere breaks up the "white" light and absorbs all the colors but blue

PAniteowl:

{G} you Got it Meli!!! {G}

Red Deer:

EXACTLY meli!

Sigmarachnar:

thanks

Red Deer:

why does it do that myst?

Grey Myst:

if you're talking about the red of burns, the blood vessels near the skin burst

Carielle:

hey Red Deer...why not? {G}

Grey Myst:

why does what do what? The sun give off light?

Freed Soul:

what are the colors for life and death?

Red Deer:

or, we turn red (flush) when passionate or angry

Grey Myst:

The atmosphere absorb all of the other colors but blue?

Freed Soul:

The top point on the pentagram...

Perseus ii:

blue is a shorter wavelength.. that is why at sunset the sky is red.. longer wavelength of light

Red Deer:

aye myst...

melilot:

i am to the point i don't care why i like it it's nice i'm happy

Freed Soul:

And the bottom on the inverted one...

Red Deer:

but, my point is that science can explain all it wants...

PAniteowl:

Soul .. all colors are of life and death {g}

Red Deer:

the answers provided are, however, HOW and NOT WHY

Cloudburst:

dang tootin', Owl

Grey Myst:

the sun hits the ozone at a certain angle, like a prism and the different lengths of light waves are dispersed in various ways so that blue is what is seen

melilot:

i don't need to know HOW {EG}

moonListener:

how about... cause that's what works?

Grey Myst:

why?

melilot:

i'm not in charge of making it work {EG}

Red Deer:

how about, "There are no accidents."

moonListener:

faith

Grey Myst:

because and 42 are the answers I can give you

Red Deer:

Level 42?

moonListener:

no, how old I'll be next month

Grey Myst:

42, the answer to life, universe, and everything

Sigmarachnar:

no the answer to life the universe and everything

Carielle:

I think I understand the point you're making, Red Deer....science can show us the "rules" of nature, but not how or why those rules were set in place (or for that matter, when)

moonListener:

{-- note to self... NEVER volunteer to be Red Deer.

Red Deer:

well folk, I see the hour is up... please keep up the discussion, but I'm cutting the logs now

MafiaMama3:

MP, all thanks for a good discussion

Perseus ii:

that was interesting. nite all

Cloudburst:

{--looking' forward to seeing the log - looks like it was real interesting in here tonight, but I was up

to my eyeballs in email.

moonListener:

does anyone want to continue the discussion?

melilot:

not really i want to PLAY

Grey Myst:

yes, but I'm afraid I'll offend someone

moonListener:

lol

moonListener:

naaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Grey Myst:

{bg}

melilot:

oh well if greys going to offend lets continue it {EG}

PAniteowl:

Hey Grey .. go for it {G}

melilot:

for what continuing or offending {G}

Grey Myst:

I just really want to know from where does the whole idea of elements come from?

melilot:

well we breathe air drink water eat what comes from the earth and cook it on fire

moonListener:

if it is our will "speaking" to the spirits/elements... does what we call them or when we place them really matter?

Grey Myst:

because if not from the Celts, then not from Europe

Red Deer:

myst - that's rather like asking where language came from... it's so lost in the past it's different to

date..

Grey Myst:

no I mean the conscious idea that we legitimate our beliefs from

Red Deer:

and it probably came from more than one source

PAniteowl:

Well Grey .. If you were living in a land where the changing of the seasons dictated how you were to survive .. you'd pay attention to when the winds came from the north, or the rains from the East ..

Grey Myst:

Red, *is* is all that past?

Mitote:

(nearly)

melilot:

i didn't know i had to legimate what i believe

Grey Myst:

true PA, but would they consciously associate?

melilot:

after all i'm not asking anyone else to believe as i do

Grey Myst:

I'm talking about Wicca in general, not people in specifics

PAniteowl:

You're dependence upon knowing your environment would be much more of an imperative than it is today

Red Deer:

actually, myst, I'd say no - we carry it forward with us. but that thesis is difficult to *prove*

Grey Myst:

ah, but Wiccans do legitimate, everyone does{BR}

true Red Deer but it's easier to disprove the former than the latter

Mitote:

Or, rationalize? As everyone?

PAniteowl:

But Grey .. the Old Religions were based on the concepts of knowing the earth and the way it worked {G}

Grey Myst:

another misconception PA. It's true there was a lot of that IN the religion but they weren't based on it, at least not the Celtic religion

melilot:

really grey? hemmm they seemed to know when the seasons changed and what was brought with each change and what they needed to do to survive

PAniteowl:

no, Grey ... to know that there is a time when the hunt is on {G} .. or when the snows will pass .. this is indeed part of the rites {G}

Grey Myst:

mel, yes they did but the religion was not BASED entirely on that

PAniteowl:

And .. the astrological knowledge and study of the night skies were an important part of the belief systems as portents.

Grey Myst:

it's part, yes, but not the entirety. We have such silly ideas about the past, we're as bad as the Xians sometimes

melilot:

oh so were not discussing the elements we're discussing the origins of wicca

Mitote:

But, WHY religion?

Grey Myst:

PA only in Antiquity and Arabia... are you saying Wicca has some roots in Arabia as well?

Arcadia:

a great part of the religion was based on that Grey, being as they were thankful to the Gods and Goddesses for the abilities given

PAniteowl:

How far back do you need to go to realize that mankind has always needed to touch the earth and it's elements in order to survive?

Grey Myst:

yes Arcadia, a lot of emphasis was put on the seasons, but not in the way we want to believe. As we believe in the fanciful we change the past and how it was

PAniteowl:

Wicca does, yes Grey ... Wicca is based on a wide conglomeration of beliefs ... Gardner gathered a lot of info and tried to find the similarities

Red Deer:

I'd say more than touch PA - touch, feel, read, taste, dance with

melilot:

grey who is this "we" you are talking about

Grey Myst:

It's sad in a way and because we're recreating the past to legitimate our future, it doesn't matter anyway

PAniteowl:

{G} Yep RD {G}

Grey Myst:

We as in Wiccans

Red Deer:

especially read

Grey Myst:

Even Pagans

Mitote:

Looking for the nexus...

PAniteowl:

No Myst .. we are observers of the past ,, we can only create our own future {G}

Grey Myst:

Pagans and Wiccans have this idea that we are the noble ones for returning to the old ways, many of which don't exist and never did.

Arcadia:

Grey, i think there is very strong evidence of God and Goddess worship related to seasonal traditions, look at the cave drawings, etc

Emer:

What??

Red Deer:

ah PA, only if you accept time as linear

Grey Myst:

'night all, I have to do my Ancient Irish and keep up with my learning. I hate disillusionment

Cloudburst:

Incomplete, Myst - we find new ways to reach old awareness

PAniteowl:

Grey .. Wicca is not solely a Celtic thought {G}

Emer:

Old traditions weren't there?? I don't know what history she read but it is definitely not of this Earth

Red Deer:

perhaps Christian history Emer

Ok, now people .. the Celtic studies people really do have a problem with people who follow Wicca and who think it is strictly a Celtic based Religion it is NOT! {G}

moonListener:

true

Red Deer:

I believe that all too often, we forget that our history books are written by Christians

Emer:

Good point PA

Mitote:

Ha!!!

PAniteowl:

and some of our history was never written at all!!! {G}

melilot:

if you truly want to know how the "ancients" lived you need go no further than the american indians 200 yrs ago

Emer:

Though I do believe in the Celtic tradition I know that there are many others and always have been

many others

Red Deer:

Based upon the surviving Irish Gaelic literature, Wicca is not a Celtic-based religion at all

Emer:

Oh RD?

PAniteowl:

that's right RD ... but the current Irish Gaelic Lit is influenced by the Book of Kells {G} and you know where that came from {G}

PAniteowl:

In fact, in Ireland itself, most of the old stories are not even taught {G} .. there are more Gaelic traditionalists in the US than in Ireland {G}

Emer:

Red if I question you it is to learn not to argue, okay?

moonListener:

ditto

Emer:

Good point PA

Red Deer:

sure Emer - didn't mean to make you think I thought we were

Emer:

Ireland is extremely Christian though, so they really wouldn't teach too many other traditions. It is highly unacceptable

Ember:

No, I was just stating that now for future sake

Red Deer:

but the stories were written down a thousand years ago, the ones that contain traditions and they - at least the Irish stories - are stories of three worlds and I believe seven elements, no compass points

moonListener:

what are the elements RD?

Red Deer:

air, fire, water & earth ... plus spirit

moonListener:

what are the last two?

Cloudburst:

I think ML meant the Celtic ones, RD.

moonListener:

you said seven

Emer:

Irish Mythology is one subject that is hard to understand because of all the later Christian influence

PAniteowl:

Moon .. I think the additional elements had to do with the head and the heart as part of the guides and dependencies

moonListener:

thank you owl.

PAniteowl:

I wish I could quote it for you Emer, but I'd have to do some research in my library {G}

Emer:

I'll have to do the research then, heck its my family tradition. I should learn a bit about it {G}