Kildeer:

what is class on tonight??

Red Deer:

perfect love and perfect trust deer

Kildeer:

thanks deer...

Red Deer:

Well folk... MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE?

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor, but tonight is open discussion, so...

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

let's look at one of the suggested topics from the Bulletin Board - Perfect Love and Perfect Trust...

What does this mean? Whom is it about? When does it apply?

Thoughts?

melilot:

please define what is meant by "perfect"

Red Deer:

You tell me meli...

MafiaMama3:

GMTA, meli

Red Deer:

what does it mean to you?

melilot:

i don't want to get caught in a semantic

Arcadia:

to me, it means unconditional Love and trust in the God and Goddess

Honey :

perfect means trusting...

MafiaMama3:

perfect means flawless, and nor do i, meli

Honey :

like that mafia

MafiaMama3:

thnx, honey

ValkyrieFire:

what is it when you don't have "perfect" love and trust then, but the ultimate best you can have?

WiseWitch:

I take it class hasn't started yet?

Elenya:

yes it has WW

MafiaMama3:

is called settling, fire

melilot:

i would have to go with mama perfect would mean flawless and since no love or trust is ever flawless it's can't be perfect

MafiaMama3:

agreed, meli

Honey :

i agree

melilot:

but it can come darn close sometimes

Red Deer:

then, one of the "ideals" of the Craft simply doesn't exist?

WiseWitch:

okay, then I'll jump in - perfect love and trust means that you trust 'em for the duration of whatever ritual you're doing. You trust they won't purposely screw it up.

AikoiNoLoc:

Things are as perfect as you believe them to be...

Arcadia:

that is why I replace "perfect" with "unconditional"

ValkyrieFire:

but that is not perfect trust... that's simple trust

melilot:

lots of the"ideals" of the craft don't exist in my head Red Deery they are ideals from someone else's

MafiaMama3:

nothing is faultless, except the gods/esses

ValkyrieFire:

are they though?

WiseWitch:

Our God/dess/es have their faults

melilot:

i don't do unconditional arc

Red Deer:

perhaps perfect love and perfect trust are what the Lady and Lord have for each other?

ValkyrieFire:

<--- I agree WW

Red Deer:

and maybe for us?

Cloudburst:

Ideals have their own existence - we just try to bring them into manifestation here. IMHO, of course

ValkyrieFire:

interesting concept

Red Deer:

are perfect and faultless the same?

melilot:

to have anything be perfect would to have it become very very boring

Arcadia:

I do Mel, when talking about the God/esses, far be it from me to put conditions on Them

Mr Medieval:

we have to strive for perfect love/trust

MafiaMama3:

they are according to roget, Red Deer

ValkyrieFire:

but then we get into the issue of whether we are removed from the Divine due to fault or not

melilot:

we put conditions on them all the time we may not call them conditions but they are

Mr Medieval:

as humans.... we ALL have some faults

Red Deer:

good mama... but experientially, would life be perfect if it had NO flaws/faults?

ValkyrieFire:

Mmmm, I've even threatened the Goddess before, in anger

Cloudburst:

I don't think so, Valkyrie, but we live in the world of form and he divinity hat shows up here is different because of that, IMO

Red Deer:

I'd imagine She laughed her hind-quarters off Fire

ValkyrieFire:

no, not really

MafiaMama3:

WW, why are your gods/esses not without faults?

ValkyrieFire:

She understood why I did it

Red Deer:

I still can't imagine mama failing to be amused by one of US threatening HER

WiseWitch:

Mama, I read their Sacred Stories. Look at Zeus, for example.

Red Deer:

or Hera

WiseWitch:

Hera has faults?

melilot:

i think she'd laugh her butt off then play a practical joke on ya myself

WiseWitch:

[g]

Cloudburst:

OK, Fire - like I knew what my kid meant when he was 3 and I took something away and he said he was going to kill me?

ValkyrieFire:

Well Event... it's another place our experiences mingle

MafiaMama3:

Red Deer, WE are the imperfect ones, life is ours to live as we choose to, hence it will never be perfect, but without even getting into personality... Vulcan was not faultless - He was lame

MafiaMama3:

IMHO, anyway

ValkyrieFire:

She was slightly peeved but She had a talk with me. I didn't trust Her to keep Her promise to me

ValkyrieFire:

mingle? where did that come from, I meant it's where our experiences differ

Red Deer:

at any rate, what have Perfect Love and Perfect Trust to do with the Craft... anything?

melilot:

hemmmmmmm valk mine never promise me anything except the means to grow to the point where i can do it myself

Red Deer:

rofl fire

Mr Medieval:

when we as humans ..define our weakness and faults .... we come closer to perfect

WiseWitch:

Red Deerie, I personally think that Perfect Love and Perfect Trust, like scourging, have more to do with Garnder's sexual preferences.

MafiaMama3:

true targe, but never absolutely perfect

Red Deer:

the gods have promised me nothing beyond the moment in which I live... it is I who constantly ask for more

Kildeer:

perfect in whose eyes though??

ValkyrieFire:

I did a spell and She promised me to protect someone very close to me. I didn't trust her.

melilot:

but what could be a weakness or fault in one might just be a good thing in another targe

Red Deer:

interesting thought WW - please expound!

Mr Medieval:

true everybody has different faults

MafiaMama3:

very true, targe

MafiaMama3:

and when we realize what our own faults r, it only makes us stronger and less vulnerable

WiseWitch:

Red Deerie, I just don't see 'perfect love and perfect trust' in ANY paleopagan stuff. Now, Gardner, and even Uncle Al who Gardner stole much from, tended to use rituals as a means of getting their sexual jollies. thus the scourging that Gerald liked so

Mr Medieval:

but we all must face our imperfect side to understand better what perfect love/trust is

Red Deer:

PL& PT was then, more than anything else, a way to get laid a lot WW?

MafiaMama3:

at least that is what i am finding on the path i am following now, much.

ValkyrieFire:

LOL WW

WiseWitch:

I dunno which one got into exploiting folks with 'perfect love and perfect trust', but I'd bet it was one of them

Red Deer:

i wonder though, was it JUST jollies?

Red Deer:

we know that both scourging and sex can lead to altered (higher levels of?) consciousness

ValkyrieFire:

I've actually never been charged to bring perfect love and trust into the Circle... only with being skyclad (and not in the physical sense)

WiseWitch:

I see Great Rites thru the ages - but not the bind 'em and whip 'em stuff, Red Deerie

melilot:

perfect love........the ability to allow one to screw up their own life even when you know you could stop them

ValkyrieFire:

so can drugs EH, but that doesn't make them acceptable

WiseWitch:

Drugs aren't acceptable??????

Red Deer:

to many Pagans AND Witches, they are acceptable fire

ValkyrieFire:

not all drugs, no

melilot:

you mean ww i have to stop tying otto up and beating him shucks

Red Deer:

one can only determine this for oneself... not for others

MafiaMama3:

that's no fun, meli, hehehe

ValkyrieFire:

some are okay, but why take Ice or Crack and ruin your life?

Arcadia:

give back that Whip Mel

WiseWitch:

You can do that all you want, Meli, but you can't say you're doing it because of Direct Decent from the Pagans of Old

MafiaMama3:

why are some drugs ok?

Red Deer:

all drugs can ruin your life, not just some of them... depends upon whether you or the drug are the master

ValkyrieFire:

because they don't kill you

Cloudburst:

Darn straight, WW

melilot:

awwwww ww and just when i was gonna start my own coven shucks.

MafiaMama3:

i beg to differ, fire

Red Deer:

what can we say we do because of direct descent WW?

ValkyrieFire:

true, I never have been addicted to anything

melilot:

i'm addicted to love

MafiaMama3:

nor have i, but i have seen many who have

ValkyrieFire:

(and please no semantics about air, food etc)

melilot:

in all it's many forms

WiseWitch:

Well, Red Deerie, in Wicca? Darn little

Mr Medieval:

some shamans used drugs of some kind to reach that altered state to go to the underworld

Red Deer:

back to perfect love and perfect trust?

ValkyrieFire:

ah yes, peyote

melilot:

i just don't believe in perfect anything Red Deery

MafiaMama3:

but was it REALLY necessary, targe?

Red Deer:

most tribal shamans learn to travel with drugs Targe... or with whirling and dancing until they reach an hallucinogenic state

WiseWitch:

some of the bog folks had ergot in their stomachs - LSD

Honey :

perfect love and perfect trust...maybe just a way to question your own beliefs?

Mr Medieval:

I have perfect love/trust for the Lord/Lady .... some times the answer is no when I ask for help

Red Deer:

maybe a way to dominate others?

Honey :

to reassure yourself

melilot:

only thing i know for sure is perfect is me i'm a perfect meli

ValkyrieFire:

but how many question their beliefs, seriously?

Kildeer:

I agree Meli.. there is no "perfect"....

MafiaMama3:

and Red Deer said what i was gonna say next, but did a much better job

Red Deer:

<--- seriously questions beliefs on a daily basis

ValkyrieFire:

okay

MafiaMama3:

true, targe, we only get the answers he/she knows we need

Cloudburst:

me too, Red Deery

melilot:

<----------questions everything

MafiaMama3:

me too, meli

Runningwolfx:

<---ongoing questions about my own beliefs

Runningwolfx:

and everything

BraveEagle:

perfect love and perfect trust the eyes of a child

MafiaMama3:

Hmmm, and i thought i was the only one who questioned my beliefs, interesting

ValkyrieFire:

then why get so angry when others challenge... oh well, never mind. My question is, if you have the one on one relationship with the divine, why the need for any perfection?

Red Deer:

OK - we've played about a bit with the semantics of perfection, but not really with the total concept...

melilot:

ROFLMAO hardly brave

Mr Medieval:

when I was out of a job for so long ...I questioned if they were still with me .... I just needed to learn a lesson .... they were always there

Red Deer:

perhaps PL&PT don't exist - do we just throw them out with the bath water and go our merry way?

ValkyrieFire:

Is Perfect love and trust for others or for ourselves, on a personal basis?

MafiaMama3:

right, targe, they are not just closet gods/esses

melilot:

no Red Deery i try to find the closest thing i can

WiseWitch:

Frankly, in the coven I was in, we thru the lines out. Felt it was BS

Honey :

i think it's for ourselves

MafiaMama3:

Red Deer, i really don't think there is PL&PT

Kildeer:

no Red Deerie.. we just strive to find the closest thing to "our" perfect that will make us happy

melilot:

but then while i might think it is perfect love or perfect trust it might not be to someone else

Mr Medieval:

we have to strive for PL&PT Red Deer .... if we don't we stagnate

Red Deer:

for me, PL&PT should be for my Gods, my life-company, and myself Fire

Red Deer:

I like that answer Targe

Arcadia:

<---does not think I can attain PL&PT as a mere mortal, but one day

Cloudburst:

<-- has used PL/PT only in coven. I don't like it at all if referring to another human, feel it belongs to trads where the HP/S is "god/dess" all the time not just in circle

ValkyrieFire:

E.M. Cioran thought that perfection was a concept created by the saints to remove us further from the Divine

Red Deer:

do we of the Craft refuse the attempt to attain something simply because it is unattainable?

melilot:

i think we all touch on it in one small moment when we have an orgasm other than that it's just out of our reach

CJLEO:

<----what does it have to do with being mortal?

Cloudburst:

PT only makes sense if directed toward deities, IMO

CJLEO:

what happened to our "divine spark"?

MafiaMama3:

agreed, targe, if we r comfortable in what we believe, we are lacking and need to go on to the next step

melilot:

Red Deery i don't stop trying to get anything just cause it might "seem" unattainable

WiseWitch:

gods, Meli - 'one small moment when we have an orgasms'? You need longer orgasms....

Cloudburst:

PL, though, if we could reach it, could make the world go round

Mr Medieval:

we must ALWAYS keep going forward .... strive to reach what is out of our reach .... that is how we learn

Arcadia:

well CJ...IMO, I will not attain PL&PT as a person, but on a "higher" plane perhaps

Red Deer:

aye Targe, my feeling exactly....

ValkyrieFire:

sometimes going back is where we learn as well

melilot:

small moment compared to the time line of the universe ww

Red Deer:

meaning, therefore, that PL&PT ARE important concepts, not just something to which we pay lip-service

Cloudburst:

CJ, maybe PL *IS* the "divine spark"

Red Deer:

{aside - I disagree meli, an orgasm IS the age of the universe - it is outside of time and space}

melilot:

concepts are important Red Deery

ValkyrieFire:

perhaps the phrasing is a bit idealistic then?

Honey :

I think if we truly believe in what we are doing and saying, then it is perfect in our own eyes

Mr Medieval:

we must have PL&PT in ourselves to show that to others...IMHO

WiseWitch:

Why wouldn't perfect trust be that you know a person's strengths and weaknesses, what you CAN trust them with? OTOH, that might just be marriage.

ValkyrieFire:

too late

melilot:

but only for a time Red Deery then we are returned

Red Deer:

I like that WW...

Runningwolfx:

when I walk my talk others around me know that I strive for and model the PL&PT

Cloudburst:

No, WW, I think that's the only PT for humans toward each other, married or not

Red Deer:

as our eternal spirits are returned from the summerlands for another round of the wheel meli?

Runningwolfx:

to the best of my being

MafiaMama3:

but that may take a very long time, targe, do we really love and trust ourselves perfectly?

melilot:

so perfect love is the ability to love someone even if they aren't perfect

ValkyrieFire:

LOL

Cloudburst:

The more you can trust the people you *work* with the better, of course

WiseWitch:

<---- has LOTS of time of NO self-love

ValkyrieFire:

then we all have PL

MafiaMama3:

meli, that is unconditional love

ValkyrieFire:

I found the more I loved myself, the better I loved others. Some people don't need that

melilot:

no i put conditions on loving the non perfect

Red Deer:

can't agree fire - many people hate themselves... and many simply have an egotistical love of self, which I couldn't call perfect

Mr Medieval:

in my old job ...I had to have trust in those I worked with .... my life counted on it

ValkyrieFire:

no such thing as unconditional love, IMO

MafiaMama3:

disagree, fire, we ALL need that

Cloudburst:

disagree, Valkyries - it's essential

CJLEO:

what is the difference between perfect and unconditional love???

ValkyrieFire:

well I could still love others when I hated myself - just not as well

MafiaMama3:

not really, fire, you only thought you could

Cloudburst:

CJ, I unconditionally love my children in heir essence, but a lot of folks here have heard me deprecate their behavior

Red Deer:

is there a difference CJ?

ValkyrieFire:

damn, I must be a better actress than I thought. I sure had my friends fooled

MafiaMama3:

fire, can a mother not love her child just because he wears glasses?

melilot:

i don't think i could love someone else if i didn't love myself i would be trying to fill a void with them instead of having a healthy relationship

Red Deer:

ah, but love for the child and dislike of their behavior are 2 different things Cloud

Red Deer:

aye meli

Cloudburst:

THEIR essence - "heir" got nothing' to do with it

Runningwolfx:

yes melilot!!

ValkyrieFire:

no, but a mother can stop loving her son for killing another son

Cloudburst:

You bet, Red Deerie

CJLEO:

then what is perfect love?

MafiaMama3:

true, but that is something different, fire

ValkyrieFire:

is it?

melilot:

perfect love:

MafiaMama3:

indeed it is

ValkyrieFire:

Motherhood is supposed to be unconditional and I say there is no such thing

Red Deer:

rofl meli

Cloudburst:

New thought:

MafiaMama3:

when we say unconditional, we love WITH faults

Daga Anem:

Can there be perfect love is there is not perfect trust?

Red Deer:

GOOD QUESTION Daga

Honey :

no

Arcadia:

<------agrees with Mel

ValkyrieFire:

erg, I don't know

Cloudburst:

GOOD ONE< MELI!

WiseWitch:

Ah, so Perfect Love is the Pagan equivalent of Pie in the sky by and by....

Red Deer:

who says mother's love is SUPPOSED to be unconditional fire? Were that true, no mother would need to discipline her children and teach them to behave in a socially acceptable manner

melilot:

and maybe just maybe when we return for the next spin of the wheel we will retain some of the knowledge from that workshop

ValkyrieFire:

no Event, discipline is an act of love

ValkyrieFire:

teaching a child self-responsibility is an act of love

Daga Anem:

but not that of trust with a child?

Cloudburst:

LOVE is preferably unconditional, but it requires training them so someone else may be able to love them conditionally

Honey :

<----agrees with fire

AikoiNoLoc:

PL&PT are believing in your beliefs....

Runningwolfx:

perfection is a concept that was derived from something "you" decided was "good" or "right" and what you are doing now is being compared to that decision. but in reality perfection is nothing but an idea

MafiaMama3:

Red Deer, all i was trying to say was that a mother loves unconditionally even though children may have faults

CJLEO:

Unconditional love for a child gives a mother strength to discipline a child. As Fire says, an act of love

Red Deer:

fire, if I love you no matter what (unconditional), then why do I need to change (discipline) you?

ValkyrieFire:

and I disagreed, because there is a difference between love and like.

ValkyrieFire:

I love my grandmother, but I don't LIKE her

Red Deer:

I, personally, do NOT consider perfect love to be unconditional...but perhaps that is a flaw in me...

Cloudburst:

RD, if I love you no matter what, why do I feel such an urge to argue with your last question?

Honey :

then what's the difference?

ValkyrieFire:

Well can perfect love exist without perfect trust? I wanted to talk about that

melilot:

the discipline is for their future Red Deery so that they may live in harmony with others and lead productive lives

WiseWitch:

Red Deerie flawed? Well he DID lose the Mr Medieval contest....

MafiaMama3:

true...but one can't like unconditionally, that comes only w/ love

Red Deer:

rofl cloud

MafiaMama3:

LOL WW

Cloudburst:

<--gives Red Deer big hug

CJLEO:

Still don't have a definition of Perfect Love

Runningwolfx:

because there isn't one

MafiaMama3:

agreed, wolf

Runningwolfx:

it is only an Idea you perceive

ValkyrieFire:

CJ, I think it's personal... we cannot fix a definition because there are too many connotations. We were looking for a denotation

melilot:

it' s when you are able to kiss the one you love even if their breath smells like cow dung leo

Runningwolfx:

each person will have their own concept of it

CJLEO:

Where does the concept of Perfect Love fit in wiccan belief, then

Runningwolfx:

it is personal choice

MafiaMama3:

FIRE, roget says that perfect is faultless, there is your denotation

ValkyrieFire:

'kay

Runningwolfx:

in the eyes of the beholder is the meaning of perfect, faultless it comes from your path and your experiences in this lifetime

Red Deer:

well, what I hear is that we are supposed to have PL&PT for the folk in our covens...

WiseWitch:

Well, does Standard Issue Wiccan Ritual fit into Wiccan Belief?

Mr Medieval:

I have PL&PT in the Lord/Lady for I know that they are always teaching me .... some lessons are very hard and at the time I feel unloved and untrusted ... but they know it is something I must go through to be a better person

ValkyrieFire:

And for the solitaries RD?

melilot:

oh geeze ww i forgot my big book of wicca

Elenya:

I'd think that depends on what the Wiccan "standard" is WW

MafiaMama3:

how right you are, targe

Red Deer:

the Lady & Lord I suppose fire, and our sisters & brothers of the woodlands

Cloudburst:

RD, hopefully yes - but it's "I love your essence and I trust you to be you"+"I trust you not to screw up the ritual"

WiseWitch:

Elenya, most trads still have the "It is better to fall upon my knife than to enter the circle with out perfect love and perfect trust'

melilot:

hehehe

ValkyrieFire:

if we fail in these things, do we fail in Wicca?

Runningwolfx:

LOL

melilot:

awwwwwwww cloud that is soooooooooo sweet

Red Deer:

which is interesting WW - how does one develop PL&PT with a coven BEFORE one is an initiated member of it?

Runningwolfx:

you can only fail if you believe in it

melilot:

oh great now we're having a test i didn't know i could fail wicca

ValkyrieFire:

LOL

MafiaMama3:

how can you fail in your beliefs in your own religion?

Cloudburst:

very iffy, RD

ValkyrieFire:

well then, PL&PT is a goal and not a requirement?

Cloudburst:

Meli, YOU will NEVER flunk Wicca

Red Deer:

I'd take the position that ALL ideals are goals - or they wouldn't be ideals now would they?

Cloudburst:

good point, RD

melilot:

LOL cloud

ValkyrieFire:

true, but many religions make ideals rigid goals... I was wondering if we were falling into that

Red Deer:

how about the Christian who consistently sins mama - aren't they failing in their own beliefs?

Mr Medieval:

as humans we ARE unperfect .... but as we learn we get closer

ValkyrieFire:

to perfection?

ValkyrieFire:

ie Divine?

fmoon:

no one can be perfect though. If someone doubts does that mean you fail?

Red Deer:

which is what we must ALWAYS (imo) avoid fire

Cloudburst:

Fire, thankfully all of Wicca never falls into anything- it's all up to the individual group/trad

Red Deer:

(the falling into part, i mean)

ValkyrieFire:

I agree Red Deer

MafiaMama3:

not IMO, Red Deer, they are failing their god, and all that he taught them

Runningwolfx:

I think it is the intention that classifies if it is a "failing" or not

AikoiNoLoc:

PL&PT is believing in your beliefs

Red Deer:

not sure I understand the difference mama

Cloudburst:

<---thinks rigidity is a good reason to NOT join the particular outfit in question

ValkyrieFire:

some people do better with rigidity, and do not consider it thus

Red Deer:

and I'd say the Craft is NOT for them fire

CJLEO:

Some people are rigid.

Arcadia:

nor I Cloud, but some people like to be sheep

Red Deer:

nor is any shamanic religion

Cloudburst:

That's why rigid trads exist, Fire

ValkyrieFire:

Cloud... it's why I avoid them

Mr Medieval:

each person has their own view of PL&PT ... to follow what somebody else thinks it is is to go against yourself

MafiaMama3:

Red Deer, if folks would follow what they believe in their heart and not what they are told to believe, they would be a lot better off

Honey :

yeah mama

ValkyrieFire:

I just end up feeling so outside everything because my relationship, rituals, and beliefs end up being a tad different than most

Runningwolfx:

walk your talk!!!

fmoon:

if they are believing just because they are spoon fed then it's not really "belief".

MafiaMama3:

i don't feel like i fail my religion because i don't really follow it the way THEY want me to

Nestor11:

Actually it seems that most of the rigidity' comment always come for solitaries who have problems working in groups or traditions and therefore feel the need to criticize them

melilot:

perfect love for meli is when an otto does something that she'd never expect perfect trust is trusting that he'll keep doing it

ValkyrieFire:

I do not criticize Nes

Nestor11:

oh take a good look as some of the comments

ValkyrieFire:

I said some people prefer the rigidity and that there is nothing wrong with that

Red Deer:

You've never heard members of a coven discuss their own or another tradition as rigid Nestor?

Mr Medieval:

I don't put down covens Nestor ...... I like to think for myself ...not what somebody else says I should

Nestor11:

and you will understand why most traditional groups wish to have nothing to do with a lot of solitaries

Arcadia:

the comments were directed to the Xtain path Nes

Cloudburst:

No crit, Nestorbro, I swing both ways - but think hardline trads are not quite conducive to the direct experience we should be encouraging

ValkyrieFire:

Rigidity is a valuation, Nes, I don't consider it bad... I just don't like it for me

MafiaMama3:

agreed, cloud

fmoon:

Nes, you don't have to be a solitary to know that forcing yourself to anothers beliefs when you don't necessarily agree isn't a good thing to do

fmoon:

That goes for everyone, (i hope)

Nestor11:

I have sat here night after night and watched the solitaries seem to think that they have some special 'spirituality' because they can function as part of a team

Honey :

everyone should have a mind of their own

Red Deer:

that statement seems contradictory Nestor

ValkyrieFire:

Who says I cannot? I have done coven rituals and nothing has gone wrong. I just prefer not to.

WiseWitch:

typo - can - can't

fmoon:

can or can't function nes? was that a typo?

Nestor11:

most of the solitaries call them selves individualists --in reality many can not work closely with others

Cloudburst:

Nestor, I firmly believe that even in a strong coven each of us *MUST* do his own work

MafiaMama3:

nestor, what makes group practice any different than christian worship and why does there have to be a chasm, anyway?

Nestor11:

and other refuse to apply themselves to the hard work it takes in a coven setting

Red Deer:

aye Cloud

ValkyrieFire:

so you are blanket accusing me of never learning to share as a kid Nes?

WiseWitch:

Okay, nestor - you've been silent on all the 'Perfect love and perfect trust stuff'. How do YOU define them?

Mr Medieval:

IMHO being part of a coven is no different than being part of a Xian church ... somebody is telling me HOW i am to do things how I should believe

Red Deer:

oh, and no coven members who never practiced solitary ever fail to work hard Nestor?

melilot:

i really would PREFER not to argue about coven vs solo's if you like what your doing no one else should be the judge of your life

Cloudburst:

<--shuts up and waits for Nestor to answer WW

Nestor11:

the perfect love and perfect trust is first within your coven

fmoon:

hey there nes, don't bash us solitaries! I work very well with others but that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not I am in a coven, Other things can be involved. Not just lack of Group ability

ValkyrieFire:

thanks meli

MafiaMama3:

agreed, meli

Nestor11:

and then s you learn by working --it begins to spread

WiseWitch:

Fine as far at THAT goes, Nestor - but define them, please.

Nestor11:

perfect love --is that I value my Brothers and Sisters of the art and am will to place them before me if need

Nestor11:

perfect trust --is knowing that you can trust their word and their actions to follow what they have given

fmoon:

exactly "of the art" doesn't only include "of my coven"

Honey :

brothers and sisters of the art, or brothers and sisters of the coven?

Mr Medieval:

I feel the same way about those I care for Nestor I don't have to join a coven to do so

WiseWitch:

Nestor already said it starts in the coven....then can work out from there

fmoon:

you're all my bros and sis of the art, but I'm not in a coven with you

Runningwolfx:

Walking the talk!!!!

Nestor11:

it starts with the coven and then the tradition and then other traditions and other individuals

Honey :

no, it starts with the coven for some

Honey :

but not all

MafiaMama3:

right, honey

PAniteowl:

um .. IMHO ... it starts with those whom you can respect and love .. and then, you can coven if you choose

WiseWitch:

<---- thunder. Does not have perfect trust in power company preventing power surges. shutting of puter now. Later, Darlings.

Red Deer:

saying that it must start within a coven means that no one who's never been in a coven can experience it Nestor...

Nestor11:

you see I don't think that you have to be in a coven -- but I see too much coven-bashing and traditional-bashing in this room

Red Deer:

so how can someone - at the point of initiation into a coven - already enter it with PL&PT?

Honey :

and you say we cannot work with others...maybe you can't work alone

Honey :

just a thought

Mr Medieval:

all those that came before me in my trad were sols .... we held the Lord/Lady in our own way but still loved our bros and sis in our clan

Nestor11:

RD --that is why you have training groups BEFORE initiation

lkn4asnfml:

what initiation

Red Deer:

but if it starts IN the coven - you're not there until initiation

fmoon:

it shouldn't be an issue of that though. the great thing about the craft is that you don't HAVE to do what doesn't feel right. You do what's right for you. One isn't higher than the other!

Red Deer:

yet the initiation contains the "better to fall upon my knife"

Nestor11:

RD -- it starts and you learn its way in the training group and must be able to manifest before you are brought into the coven

Red Deer:

you do have to do what's right fmoon - and those above you (the Lady & Lord) always know and will tell you what that is

Honey :

if beliefs are forced upon you, it becomes more of a christianity thing

PAniteowl:

Covens have been a way of life within the Craft ... but the times they are a-changing .. and many can "grove" without covening thru an hierarchy

Nestor11:

so by the time your get to the initiation ceremony you know

and have begun to live it --

Red Deer:

am confused Nestor - you started off by saying it starts IN the coven

fmoon:

Red Deer...exactly, and the Lord and Lady don't say the same thing to everyone.

Red Deer:

haven't said they do fmoon...

ValkyrieFire:

there is a year and one day training BEFORE actual entrance into the coven

lkn4asnfml:

if they don't say the same thing - then can't we be in error

PAniteowl:

Nes, are you saying that the only way to learn is to be "coven" taught?

Nestor11:

when you're in the coven --your loyalties and love are to that coven and your fellow coveners

ValkyrieFire:

but work is done with the Coven...

fmoon:

oh i know, im agreeing with you

Nestor11:

then to the others in your tradition

Mr Medieval:

not all trads are coven trads

Nestor11:

PA --no you know there are many solitaries I respect

MafiaMama3:

nestor, covening sounds a lot like being a part of a christian church to me

Runningwolfx:

all of you are right for you are where you should be in this moment give yourself a hug!!!

fmoon:

lkn, if everyone walked the same path we'd be clones and maybe not worshipping the way we feel is right.

Nestor11:

but I feel that there is a little too much coven-tradition system bashing in here

ValkyrieFire:

Listen, neither the Christian Church nor a Coven is BAD, it's what people DO with them that ruins it

MafiaMama3:

true, fire

ValkyrieFire:

Being in a coven can be a beautiful thing

Cloudburst:

Right on, Fire

MafiaMama3:

am not disputing that

ValkyrieFire:

so can being a part of the Christian Church

Honey :

i didn't think we were bashing covens when you came in Nes

MafiaMama3:

i know that, too

lkn4asnfml:

so can you be a christian and a wiccan

Red Deer:

I have no doubt that a coven can be beautiful... but such a coven (for me a least) COULD not be one based upon a hierarchical system of domination (and therefore rigidity)...

PAniteowl:

I don't feel that coven bashing is standard here, Nes .. but some covens should be "bashed" for their teaching methods and practices

Nestor11:

the fact that we have organized systems of training and rituals seem to assist many in their search of knowledge

Cloudburst:

but it's not the One Right True and Only Way , and it's not a replacement for serious work of your own

fmoon:

if its right for you then it is beautiful and you should follow it. If not, well, then keep on searching

Red Deer:

IMO that is contrary to what the Craft itself is all about

Mr Medieval:

I'm not bashing covens .... for some a coven is what they need...what makes them happy ...for some it is just not their way

Red Deer:

and for many, the *right* coven simply has not been available

True, RD

PAniteowl:

agree Red Deer

Cloudburst:

Including me - everybody I want in my coven lives someplace else

PAniteowl:

LOL Cloud

Red Deer:

from class at least

Nestor11:

Mr Medieval -- I would agree that for some people solitary is just fine --and for others coven ore fine -- but lately I have been seen more and more of a "if it is traditional --then it's repressive" attitude expressed in here

Mr Medieval:

<---- not part of a coven.... part of a beautiful grove

Red Deer:

Well, boys and girls, the atomic clock says it be 10:

PLEASE continue the conversation...

fmoon:

i had never participated in a group ritual till this week and am solitary. I thought it was beautiful, but I'm still not in a coven.

MafiaMama3:

lkn wants to know if one can be a wiccan and a christian at the same time

fmoon:

was curious about that one me self mama

PAniteowl:

No Mama

Nestor11:

mafia --as far as I am concerned on that question --absolutely NOT

Red Deer:

that's a topic that's been hotly debated mama... check back on the BB under the Christian Witch subject over the past 2-3 months

MafiaMama3:

i know the answer, explain the reasons why to like to know

Red Deer:

though I must, personally, agree with PA & Nestor

fmoon:

doesn't being a witch contradict what christianity preaches?

ValkyrieFire:

no but Christians can practice magic

lkn4asnfml:

the answer is: no

Runningwolfx:

but where do you think the Christian religion came from???

Cloudburst:

Definitely worth reading back on that, either of you

ValkyrieFire:

Wicca is a religion and I would be a part regardless of the magic or not

Mr Medieval:

I understand Nestor ..... I know I have seen it as well .... as a sol as you do I get tired of being bash by coveners

Red Deer:

aye fire they can - as mages, sages, magicians - but not (again IMO) as Witches

Red Deer:

unless, of course, they are Satanists

Cloudburst:

goes both ways, don't it Targe?

Nestor11:

shall we start with the basic of the craft being polytheistic - at least one God and one Goddess --and Christianity is monotheistic

Mr Medieval:

yep

ValkyrieFire:

Satanists are silly angry twits who are rebelling against Xianity because someone pissed them off, it's a power trip, NOT witchcraft

fmoon:

lol val, like the choice of words

lkn4asnfml:

but you say that Christian church is not a bad thing - well then, what is it...a not so bad thing

Eala Teine:

well, that was an interesting note to enter on, Valkyrie

Red Deer:

They label themselves as witches fire.

Cloudburst:

why does it have to be bad just because it's other?

Runningwolfx:

Christianity is a break off of the true Wise Ways

ValkyrieFire:

I have strong opinions.

MafiaMama3:

agreed, cloud, it is not for everyone

Eala Teine:

Picking on Christians is easy... walking your own path without needing to is a bit trickier

ValkyrieFire:

I've already offended about half the people here permanently and the others only on occasion

Eala Teine:

Hey, I was a Christian once-- not by choice, but I didn't find it oppressive any more than most disciplines

MafiaMama3:

moon, I am a christian, catholic by birth and i am here every sun to learn about wicca, does that make me a bad christian? it does for those of my beliefs

Mr Medieval:

I have been all over the world ...seen many belief systems.... what is RIGHT for you is all that matters

fmoon:

not so much oppressive as "just not for me" in my case

MafiaMama3:

and i agree w/ what targe just said, too

lkn4asnfml:

what is right for you - but then all is relative

Arcadia:

yup, that's good enough for me

Cloudburst:

me too, fmoon

Red Deer:

Well, our time is up for the evening. Thanks for a wonderful discussion folk.