Red Deer:

MMA Pagans

RASZ:

is there a class tonight

Trollfrog:

of course there is...

AZEROTH:

Red Deer is here must be

Celtic Air:

what's the topic??????

Red Deer:

Triple God - for open discussion Celtic Air

Celtic Air:

I thought it was triple Goddess

Trollfrog:

we've not had a good GOD[s] discussion in a while...

mahari:

well, you have fresh fodder here..curious about the triple Gods

Red Deer:

OK folk, the clock on my toolbar says 09:

07 PM ET... shall we get started

Trollfrog:

fire away

Red Deer:

first, the usual formalities...

Before we begin, please consider leading a session of Wicca 101... everyone has something to offer! To volunteer, E-mail me: HUZD95A@prodigy.com

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor - but I declare the floor OPEN to on-topic discussion...

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

Tallician:

{-----------logging

Red Deer:

thanks Tallician

and finally,

ViragoWitch:

{--- protesting the excessive logging on behalf of the spotted owls

Red Deer:

Tonight, we are having an open discussion of "The Triple God." What are His aspects? Please join us.

mahari:

please explain the triple God

Red Deer:

would someone care to respond to mahari?

ImYourPal:

What would you say if I told you that God had three beings?

Arcadea:

Triple God, Young Buck or Stag, Father Figure, Wise Man

Red Deer:

I'd say that God IS three beings pal

mahari:

stages of man?

Red Deer:

thanks arc...

any other interpretations?

Tallician:

Arc's fav is you buck {g}

Red Deer:

how about Blue God, Green God, Horned God?

Trollfrog:

child...warrior...sage

Red Deer:

excellent Troll

mahari:

are those the aspects of triple God?

ImYourPal:

Troll, that is chronological

mahari:

or, are those the aspects of humanity

Red Deer:

aye mahari... each depending upon you world view

perhaps both - we are created in the images of the Gods after all

mahari:

agreed

how does the divinity of man fit in?

Trollfrog:

the child god sees the world as "newly re-born"...chaos of creation...the warrior god is the preserver...keeper ...the sage is the teacher..holder of wisdom...lost..to be found again

ImYourPal:

God is Father, son , and spirit all at the same time, right?

Red Deer:

do these three sets of aspects have a commonality, other than belonging to pagan viewpoints?

seems more like son, father and grandfather to me pal

Trollfrog:

they reflect the stages of "human" growth...male aspects there of

[our deities are reflections of our "selves"]

Red Deer:

as we are reflections of our deities?

Trollfrog:

as we are our own deities

[or at least become them]

mahari:

is your view of God as a personality outside yourself, or as spirit, everywhere present?

Trollfrog:

both

[tho there is no "true separation"]

Tallician:

each our own interpretations of the various stages at different times in our lives

Cloudburst:

both, I think, broRed Deer. The window is human-made, but it looks on Light

Red Deer:

I find the relationships between child/warrior/wise man and buck/stag/old prince of the forest...

but how does the Blue/Green/Horned trinity fit with this?

mahari:

agreed, there is no separation.

Tallician:

it's all one in the same

Red Deer:

Tallician - how do you reconcile blue/green/horned with the others?

ImYourPal:

and Red Deer, where are females in your scheme?

mahari:

if, there is no true separation, then why the separation of child/warrior/sage?

Trollfrog:

[tonight's discussion is on the MALE aspects of godhood...the FEMALE aspects were covered on another night]

Red Deer:

thank you Trollfrog

Tallician:

blue is the carefree growing youth, green the provider , and horned one the elder/teacher

Cloudburst:

No true separation doesn't mean no need for symbol

systems, mahari

mahari:

thanks cloud

Red Deer:

interesting Tallician...

I learned that Blue is the Spirit over the Still Waters

Green is the God of the Greenwood

and Horned is the God of the Hunt...

mahari:

so, God of the waters, god of the earth and god of survival?

Cloudburst:

Hmmmm....Red Deerie, so is the child Krishna the spirit over the waters (=blue your setup) - interesting{g}

Trollfrog:

close mahari... tho it is more than just survival

Tallician:

they're all part of the same ,and all present at any time , one is just more evident at different times

AZEROTH:

being the sacrificial god {horned being god of hunt}

mahari:

understood...what then, is the point of the sacrificial god?

Cloudburst:

life feeds on life/no beginning without ending

Tallician:

yes but the sacrifice is with the knowledge of rebirth as the cycle goes on

Trollfrog:

the hunt celebrates the ties of our furred brothers to ourselves... as well as the power of coupling.. and harvest of flesh

Red Deer:

all life feeds upon death mahari

there must be sacrifice for life to continue

aye trollfrog

Tallician:

to complete the cycle

mahari:

I understand, I just view it differently

Tallician:

how so?

Red Deer:

please tell us a bit mahari

we all have different viewpoints

Tallician:

the view of people is not right or wrong , its; in our own interpretations

mahari:

absolutely...that's why it's so fun to move around these 'religion' rooms.

Red Deer:

back to the God?

Trollfrog:

[or gods]

Elenya:

aye, froggie

mahari:

Red Deer, I'm trying to get a fix to explain myself...there is a part of me who has very pagan roots....that tie into my Judeao/Christo/Buddo/Hindi selves

Red Deer:

good point frog... is the God Three in One, or just Three, or maybe even many more?

Trollfrog:

krishna/vishnu/shiva

Red Deer:

creator/preserver/destroyer...

Trollfrog:

[troll have many gods...{---polytheist]

Red Deer:

interesting trinity... although krishna is the creator

it is NOT he who dances the dance of cosmic creation, but rather Shiva

Tallician:

mahari, ? different names for the same idea?

mahari:

yes

Trollfrog:

troll dancing dance of destruction]

mahari:

I tend to believe that God is all that is...god is creation

Sigmarachnar:

I feel that "gods" are simply great teachers that are here to help people learn to progress...so there does not have to be only one teacher or god

JHeuer:

There is one basic god/goddess force. This force is known by many names, both male and female.

Red Deer:

you are a monotheist mahari?

mahari:

are we not all gods?

I don't think it really matters

Red Deer:

this is NOT the view of most Witches JH

Erisandria:

Um.....I'm a great music teacher.. By your definition, Sig, I must be a god. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Red Deer:

and, I believe, most Witches would significantly disagree with that statement mahari

mahari:

I believe god is energy

JHeuer:

true, but it is the one I heard from several witches of my acquaintance here in Fresno

Morvan:

J Heuer hit it right on the head...

Tallician:

yes , but if we carry the god and goddess within ourselves, are we not a part of the godess and god

Red Deer:

do you know their Tradition JH, and were they all of the same one?

Sigmarachnar:

well to be a god you have to have followers..do you have many followers

mahari:

I don't mean it doesn't matter, but my belief is that god is energy and we are part of that energy, thereby a bit of the divine

Red Deer:

you limit the gods sigma

Erisandria:

No... I can play Beethoven by memory, but this does not make me part of Beethoven, Tall.

JHeuer:

continuing- -each deity name represents a specific aspect of this god/goddess force

Red Deer:

but Beethoven IS a part of YOU Erisandria

SlpyHlw:

what is the triple god

Erisandria:

Nope. Beethoven is dead.

SlpyHlw:

is it just like the triple goddess

mahari:

great analogy for my belief...within a bucket of ocean water are all the components of the ocean itself, yet it is not all the ocean.

Trollfrog:

the various "godheads" are useful guides/teachers

Red Deer:

death is but a change of form... not an end of energy - in the Witches' world view at least

Sigmarachnar:

no one is infinite...only infinite in their impact on the rest of existence...even gods

JHeuer:

they were of the georgian tradition, Red Deer

Tallician:

but Beethoven is still alive thru the music we have today

Trollfrog:

each has their own "personalities" and quirks...as do we

Red Deer:

if they are all of the same tradition, I wouldn't accept their belief as the view of most Witches JH...

Erisandria:

Aye... but the allusion was to the idea that carrying a part of god would make one a god. Anymore than carrying a work of Beethoven would make me Beethoven.

Red Deer:

would be rather like saying the Dianic view of the God holds for most Witches, which is definitively FALSE

Cloudburst:

dang tootin' on that one, RD{g}

Trollfrog:

you betcha

JHeuer:

you are probably correct Red Deer, I personally found it to be a confusing idea, but it is one held by them, and several other persons I have met, even some x-tians

Tallician:

each has they're own perspective

Trollfrog:

{--- shaman [def NON Dianic]

Red Deer:

you carry more than one of his works Erisandria - you are of the same gene pool, the same biosphere - you breathe the same air and drink the same water as him

mahari:

Erisandria, that's where individuality comes in...sparks of the divine, not the total of it

Erisandria:

Aye,., but we are not the same. I am a different life force.

Red Deer:

of course that would be the Christian view JH - they ONLY believe in ONE

ah Erisandria... no one has said you are the same... just PART OF

mahari:

but what if that one is all encompassing

Erisandria:

Oh... I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that they were the same.

JHeuer:

but what if this 'one' is also called odin, or herne or

persephone. Most x-tians would call this blasphemy

Red Deer:

and most Witches would disagree

Erisandria:

I believe our world is like the rose; each petal different, but altogether different, working to make one beautiful flower.

mahari:

names are just that...ways different cultures have of describing

Sigmarachnar:

gods have to be stronger than most to do what they have to...but this does not mean they are infinite...only from were you stand

Trollfrog:

they are all quite "different"

Red Deer:

I believe the two most prevalent beliefs are

mahari:

agreed Erisandria

Red Deer:

1) that there are TWO distinct gods - one male one female - each with many aspects

and 2) that there are MANY distinct and individual gods

Tallician:

so we're in good company, the x-tians of today would not be to the x-tians of 300 years ago

mahari:

true

Trollfrog:

{--- holds with version #2

Erisandria:

{-------hasn't decided

mahari:

most christians of today have missed the message

Sigmarachnar:

{----goes with #2

Morvan:

#1 for me.

JHeuer:

I tend to lean toward version number 2 myself, but the one I introduced earlier does seem to make sense, at least from a philosophical view

MafiaMama3:

and what is that message, mahari?

Red Deer:

#1 would be the classical view of folk like Alexander, Valiente, etc.

mahari:

love...in it's purest form...that we are all one...there is no separation

JHeuer:

but perhaps it is also an attempt by some to 'unify' the various pagan traditions under one roof- -deity roof that is.

Cloudburst:

{--- believes in the force, but lives in a #2 world{g}

Red Deer:

rather a bit like trying to herd cats, JH?

Erisandria:

Ack! No separation?

MafiaMama3:

I am a christian and my beliefs are just like that, mahari

Trollfrog:

[Taoist holds that all are expressions of a greater whole...as are the Gods and Goddesses]

Tallician:

a god and goddess with many aspects to each and many different names?

JHeuer:

perhaps, knowing that some of the traditions would not sit down at the same table together.

mahari:

Erisandria, quit taking it so personally; not trying to take anything away from you

Erisandria:

No... don't understand what you are trying to say. It makes no sense to me.

mahari:

that underneath our individuality...we are united in spirit

Trollfrog:

Erisandria...think of it as a grand symphony...with each player having their own contribution to the greater whole

Erisandria:

Hmmmmm... that doesn't seem to match with what happens in real life.

mahari:

we are all part of a greater whole...you don't have to give up yourself to be part of more

Red Deer:

that we are one family is not the same for me as that we are one Erisandria

mahari:

depend on your perspective and what you expect life to give you

Erisandria:

It is a lovely ideal; but perhaps that is all it is.

Tallician:

It may not be possible for some people to be able to express their beliefs with words

Cloudburst:

Erisandria, we are all aspects of the great whole of organism

Earth - this does NOT mean we're not different selves - can be both at same time

Red Deer:

each of my neurons is an individual part of the one me, but they are each distinctly separate cells

this is how I view individuals of various species... and even the rocks, rivers and trees

mahari:

thanks

Red Deer:

aye cloud

Tallician:

agreed, and the sum total makes us each unique

Erisandria:

So you aren't actually saying they are the same, merely that each aspect of our world, including our spirits, were designed to work together in harmony.

mahari:

yea!

Cloudburst:

right

AZEROTH:

:)/P>

Erisandria:

Okies.

Red Deer:

so, how does all this tie into the God?

Cloudburst:

RD, ??

Erisandria:

That makes more sense. I thought you were saying that everything is the same; a bit like the Buddhist idea of everything being change.

Red Deer:

great minds think alike

Cloudburst:

AHA! Thanks{g}

mahari:

I guess I could agree with that, too.

Red Deer:

ah Erisandria... as we all ride the Great Wheel together, we are comfortable with the idea that everything is change

Erisandria:

I suppose the way our relationship to each other and the harmony of our world is directly connected to the harmony we share with the Gods.

JHeuer:

well said, Erisandria- -we must have harmony and strong rapport with the ones whom we believe in and worship

Erisandria:

And do you buy into the idea of Nirvana? That of ending reincarnation with the becoming change itself, and surpassing it, or how Buddhist are you?

MafiaMama3:

am lost, Red Deerie,but that's what I get for being late

Red Deer:

I personally do not Erisandria...

Trollfrog:

okles kiddies...a query for the crowd.. How do you deal with "the Godhood" in your "normal" ritual work vs. life

???

Erisandria:

Neither do I... but I know many that do.

Red Deer:

I believe that riding the Wheel is an end in itself.

but this is NOT representative of most Witches

good one Troll

Tallician:

off with old , on with the new and lets fly

Cloudburst:

{---believes there is probably some point at which one can "opt out" but most stick around for the ride{g}

Erisandria:

{-------for some reason is thinking of gerbils on their exercise wheels. :)

exercize, rather.

Cloudburst:

Don't blame you for that one, Erisandria

Red Deer:

well Cloud, I believe that we may also - after much learning - opt out of THIS Wheel, but that there is always ANOTHER we then opt in to

Cloudburst:

may be a relevant image, but only if the gerbil is learning something{g}

Tallician:

the wheel of life is lessons to learn and pass on

Pinky17:

This is a highly fascinating conversation

Sigmarachnar:

I think that gods are stronger spirits who are here to help "people" grow and learn...they are not infinite nor is there only one...it is just some encourage those they help only to listen to them

Tallician:

they're as strong or weak as we make them

Sigmarachnar:

they are not perfect...no one can be perfect..they can only be perfectly themselves

Erisandria:

Do you believe in "old" souls?

Tallician:

yes

Sigmarachnar:

well a god gains some strength by their followers

JHeuer:

the gods and goddesses teach us how to live- -and die.

Red Deer:

I'd be more semantic Tallician - within OUR lives They are as strong or weak as we make them... within the Wheel, They are forces unto Themselves

Sigmarachnar:

yes

Cloudburst:

{---only as evidence presents itself, Erisandria

mahari:

but aren't you surrounded by people who are those gods/goddesses?

Sigmarachnar:

many of them are "old" souls

Pinky17:

Like us sigg?

Red Deer:

people who carry elements of those god/dess/es within themselves mahari

mahari:

don't we all?

Cloudburst:

only in the "thou art god" sense, mahari{g}

Sigmarachnar:

there are very few gods or goddess s in body form

mahari:

don't get it cloud

Red Deer:

I believe that the only time an individual human EMBODIES a god/dess is when s/he aspects that deity in Circle

Cloudburst:

stranger in a strange land

Erisandria:

Do they realize they are gods?

Red Deer:

grokked Cloud

Sigmarachnar:

there are many restrictions for those souls who help when they come into body form

Cloudburst:

{g}

Pinky17:

Well, actually I think there is only one true God.. and many followers who are "God-like"

Sigmarachnar:

they realize that they help

Pinky17:

but I'm still not sure that's just the way I was brought up

Sigmarachnar:

but they usually think they are no greater than others

MafiaMama3:

then you are christian, pinky?

Red Deer:

for your viewpoint this is fine Pinky - it just is not the view of most Witches

Tallician:

our belief's and the strength of those beliefs ,shape the lessons and forces on the wheel

mahari:

I don't see any point in trying to do anything less that being 'godly'

Pinky17:

Im still learning..

mahari:

doesn't mean I am all the time, but to do less is pointless

MafiaMama3:

as am I, pinky

Pinky17:

Sigmar is teaching me.

JHeuer:

Good evening all- -I have really enjoyed myself here. Many good opinions -each has it's own merit. My pager keeps beeping, so I must now log off. Blessed be everyone, and good journey.

Sigmarachnar:

we are all still learning no matter what we have seen and done and learned we are always learning

Red Deer:

back to the God's aspects?

Pinky17:

I was brought up in the Christian faith.. but I have always strayed, like my fascination with magic and questions and curiosity

MafiaMama3:

you sound like me, pinky

mahari:

and me

mahari:

makes for a fun ride

MafiaMama3:

not all the time, mahari

mahari:

true

MafiaMama3:

{g}

Pinky17:

I dont want to be unfaithful but there are just so many questions left unanswered.

MafiaMama3:

agreed, pinky

mahari:

and you are the only one who can find the answers

Erisandria:

I was too... but it never seemed to answer questions about things like "seeing".

Pinky17:

exactly

mahari:

explain your seeing Erisandria

Red Deer:

The Topic is the GOD!

mahari:

sorry Red Deer

Pinky17:

sorry

Sigmarachnar:

there is truth in the bible and the christianity that juashua of Nazareth taught...but the roman catholic church has changed much and the bible has been edited many times

Tallician:

we begin the lessons from birth and continue thru to death, each aspect of the triple god is with us an affects daily. We may not be in the time where we are passing through that stage ourselves

Tallician:

but they continue to affect and influence us

Sigmarachnar:

sorry

Red Deer:

aye, 'tis the Horned God who helps me to understand fatherhood most often, even though I am not at that 'stage' of life...

AZEROTH:

BS RD

Red Deer:

rofl Az...

Cloudburst:

{---wonders why RD doesn't think he's at the fatherhood stage?

Cloudburst:

or did you mean the Horned God stage?

MafiaMama3:

I wonder that, too,his girls are adorable, :)

Red Deer:

I'm not being clear... I see the horned one as at the sage rather than fatherhood stage...

Red Deer:

"I" AM at the fatherhood stage, but not sage

FOURPA:

just who is the "horned one?"

AZEROTH:

but in the turning of the wheel he would be father grandfather

Pinky17:

then I can explain what I have devised as something seeable and explanatory about God

Cloudburst:

{---got it, RD

As with the Goddess, though, we get trapped by weirdness the more we try to link aspects with age. IMHO, of course

Tallician:

I'm at the chronological fatherhood stage , but due to events in my life I am definitely in the sage

Cloudburst:

care to elaborate, Tallician?

Erisandria:

Um.... at the risk of sounding stupid... what is the sage stage?

AZEROTH:

horned

Red Deer:

the time of repose from childrearing and the onset of true understanding...wisdom

Tallician:

RD, now that I have you totally confused {g} I should clarify that at the keyboards tonite, is Bear, a friend to the family, joining our discussion {g}

Red Deer:

oh, thanks... I coulna picture either Arc or Jason as being past fatherhood and into sage {g}

AZEROTH:

lol

Cloudburst:

Erisandria, sage roughly = crone if you go with chronology

AZEROTH:

me either

Elenya:

LOL, RD

Erisandria:

Ok,..... I know crone.

Red Deer:

'cept I don't think it's JUST chronology... 'tis also developmental

Erisandria:

I swear some people are born crones.

AZEROTH:

mostly developmental

Bear:

point being: I am at the stage of life, that I can teach and hopefully help some of the youngers not repeat mistakes I've make

ViragoWitch:

the whole chronological/emotional/developmental issue of the stages would be a good topic for some night....

AZEROTH:

welll good luck bear

ViragoWitch:

I'll warn y'all, though..it's one that tends to get me rather..err...loud

Cloudburst:

you bet, VW - you volunteering?

ViragoWitch:

not for a while, Cloud...no time these days!

Cloudburst:

Bear, that particular sage stage is something lots of people can do a lot of the time -

Red Deer:

OK folk... the clock on my toolbar NOW says 10:00 PM ET...

Red Deer:

Close logs and discuss as you will

Red Deer:

And thank you all for a most interesting discussion