"The Spiral Dance: What is it?, What is it about?, What does it symbolize? Facilitator : Red Deer Date : 19 October 1997

Red Deer:
Before we begin, please consider leading a session of Wicca 101... everyone has something to offer! To volunteer, E-mail me:
HUZD95A@prodigy.com
1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.
2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor. Tonight, that would be me... so please bear with me as I'm leading and warding {g}
3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).
4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

Arcadia:
{-----logging
Red Deer:
thanks logger {g} With that, I pass the besom to... ME! {g}

MafiaMama3:
LOL

melilot:
ON NO Red Deer doing class

MafiaMama3:
get the PPP ready, meli, maybe we can distract him a bit, hehehe

Red Deer:
tonight I'd like to hold an open discussion, with a focus on "The Spiral Dance: What is it?, What is it about?, What does it symbolize?" Anybody want the first word?

LadyGrnEyess:
nah...we all want the last word {eg}

Cloudburst:
Can I pause for a brief commercial?

MafiaMama3:
i can't answer any of those questions, but i DO know that i felt wonderful after i experienced it, felt, even

melilot:
spiral dance symbolizes the every turning and returning of the wheel that is life

Red Deer:
commercial Cloud?
hold that thought please meli

Cloudburst:
Quicky: if anybody still wants in on FMR, I'm thinking to close after class unless they get in touch with me. That's it{G}

Red Deer:
thanks...
OK meli - turn / return?

melilot:
it like life is ever relapping upon it self we might be meeting those who have passed on in their new form

Red Deer:
ah... interesting view... so then, life itself IS the Spiral Dance?

melilot:
darn tootin Red Deer

Cloudburst:
I'd think yes, Red Deer

Red Deer:
then, turnabout is fair play... Is the Spiral Dance life itself?

melilot:
The spiral dance imitates the life cycle

MafiaMama3:
so, is just a symbol thereof?

Arcadia:
I think so Red Deer, from the number of ups and downs and ins and outs that I've had anyway

Trollfrog:
is not "just" symbol... is an expression of it

Nuit Goddes:
what is the Spiral Dance

xlpopil:
Sounds like it relates to cyclic potentials for dynamic change.

Nuit Goddess:
????

Red Deer:
so, the Dance is NOT life itself, but only a symbol or expression?

melilot:
symbol/expression slaps troll with trout of confusion

Red Deer:
Ah, good question Nuit... any other's unfamiliar with the Dance?

MAYVISION:
yes me

Red Deer:
OK - BRIEF explanation... 'tis a line dance, but NOT straight...

moonListener:
{-- claiming ignorance

Red Deer:
often done in Circle... all move together following the leader, various patterns of circle in and out (= spiral)

moonListener:
like a maypole dance then?

MafiaMama3:
so much love felt during spiral dance,,,

Red Deer:
maypole is ONE of the spiral dances, but folk, don't in that instance, follow one another

melilot:
first you do spiral dance nuit then end it with the time warp {G}

MafiaMama3:
LOL, meli

Cloudburst:
You're being confusing, meli{G}

Red Deer:
rofl meli

Arcadia:
yeah meli...we loves the time warp

MAYVISION:
what's a time warp

Red Deer:
{--- has done the time warp in Circle, but that's a digression

Nestor11:
EH -- you might want to talk about the people weaving a pattern of energy and destiny

Red Deer:
dance from the Rocky Horror Picture Show, May

Arcadia:
seriously Red Deer, I think that the pattern of the "dance" closely resembles life

Red Deer:
sounds like you just volunteered for that Nestor - this is not a class but an open discussion

Nestor11:
well the Saxon called "Weaving the Web"

Arcadia:
please do Nestor

Nestor11:
it meant that the patterns of energy not only made but also that an action on part of the Web - would be felt by all the other parts think of the traditional spiders web

Jannie N CA:
they're a cleaning nightmare

Nestor11:
now that any force applied at one point is felt at the other points and that the source of that energy can be determined

MafiaMama3:
where do the spiral dances have their origin exactly?

Red Deer:
Robert Graves attributes them to observance of the mating dance of cranes Mama

melilot:
i just NEW sex had to be involved somehow

Red Deer:
without sex there is no life as *we* know it meli

Nestor11:
good question Mafia -- while there seem to be evidence of Paleolithic people developing spiral patterns - the some of the clearest physical evidence in found in the Minoan civilization

Red Deer:
any takers on WHY the crane's dance?

MafiaMama3:
they just do, host? :-)

Nestor11:
crane's bag = letters of the alphabet = knowledge

MafiaMama3:
we ALL have mating rituals,,,

Red Deer:
no mama, on why the crane dance would be the model for our religious dance {g}

MafiaMama3:
{g} that was part of my question

Red Deer:
aye Nestor... the Goddess' great gift to the god (besides procreation, that is)

Cloudburst:
Spirals are very old in art - we don't know if they danced them, but it *FEELS* right to those of us who are dancin' fools{G}

Red Deer:
for those not familiar with the mythos to which Nestor & I refer... The White Goddess gave to her consort the letters of the tree alphabet, contained in a Craneskin bag...

xlpopil:
They dance because they may want their intrinsic feelings to reach others?

Nestor11:
for those who lost that answer: the greek attributed the letters of the alphabet to seeing a flight of cranes (a sacred bird of the Goddess)and that the letter were patterned after their movements

Red Deer:
these letters allowed for divination, understanding and communication via writing... plus more secretive kinds of discourse... the *keys* to the Turning Wheel, as it were

Nestor11:
the Ogham and other sacred alphabets played a huge part in the transmission of wisdom among ancient cultures

Red Deer:
aye Nestor
any thoughts on what modern knowledge("scientific") makes the insights of the spiral even more interesting?

Nestor11:
DNA

Red Deer:
aye!
more?

CJLEO:
dance of the peptides

Cloudburst:
Starhawk talks about the DNA analogy extensively. Works for me, but I tend to feel something more like spiral nebulae..

Red Deer:
interesting... more please leo?

Cloudburst:
LEO: peptides = DNA enzymes?

Red Deer:
yes Cloud... particles emitted from OR falling into stars move in a spiral

CJLEO:
It is like a ribbon with peptides on the outside of the ribbon.

OLDSOULJER:
peptides are chains of amino acids

Cloudburst:
"we are the..." - peptides? - "we are the web"?{G}

Red Deer:
what is the pattern of the earth's orbit about the sun?

CJLEO:
They pair in different combinations along the ribbon. Like the meeting of eyes as we dance

Cloudburst:
oh, GOOD, Leo!

MafiaMama3:
an eclipse, host

Red Deer:
cool leo
ah, that's the simplistic pattern we're taught mama...

xlpopil:
Peptide Interactions bring us back to our feelings as controlled by chemicals at work.

MafiaMama3:
well, u know me, the simple minded one,,,{G}

Cloudburst:
As above so below, as itsy bitsy so macro...fits, definitely

Red Deer:
that would be almost everyone's answer mama... but it assumes that the sun STANDS STILL

DelaChenaie:
only an eclipse if you are solar system based

Red Deer:
in reality, the sun orbits the galaxy, so the earth's motion becomes...

MafiaMama3:
uh oh, and it doesn't, host?

DelaChenaie:
this system

Red Deer:
a SPIRAL

MafiaMama3:
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Cloudburst:
aha!

MafiaMama3:
so much to learn,,,,,{S}

OLDSOULJER:
it takes the sun just over 26,000 years to circuit the galaxy.

Nestor11:
the peptide chains show a 'pattern' and 'organization' of life into controlled sequences which repeat themselves in different combination to create all living forms

Red Deer:
aye nestor...
yes old?

OLDSOULJER:
pardon?

Nestor11:
one of the first action in any mythology seems to be 'THE GODS' ordering the Universe

Red Deer:
the suns circuit, I thought perhaps you had further comment

OLDSOULJER:
Oh, just musing out loud. Sorry.

Red Deer:
rofl... no prob
what about the patterns of the most powerful natural phenomena observed by the ancients??? tornadoes, whirlpools

Nestor11:
and the first action of in the Wiccan circle is the "Creation of the Circle" which is really creating a magical Universe to do you worship and work in

Red Deer:
hurricanes

xlpopil:
So the DNA spiral chains reflect the true movement of the earth.

CJLEO:
and the ribbon can be rolled tightly into a spiral that contains energy evident when you release it.

Red Deer:
actually, xplopil, I'd say the spiral itself is the general shape of movement within the universe... of life itself not that one thing mirrors another, but that all proceed in similar fashion

xlpopil:
So this is akin to the E=mc2 rule.

Red Deer:
this recognition is what brought the ancients - *IMO* - to recognize the importance of the spiral

Nestor11:
one form of the spiral dance is the "meeting dance' in which all the members of the coven are drawn together in the area which is to become the Circle area -- a drawing of energy which is shaped into a New Universe by the actions during the ritual

Red Deer:
like, the year is not a simple circle - if it were, they (and we) would expect the SAME year to start over again every Samhain... but a NEW one, similar to the old in many respects starts instead ergo... a spiral think of it as painting a spot on a wheel moving down the road...

Nestor11:
EH -- plotting the circle of actions over time (4th dimension) leads to a spiral

Red Deer:
the wheel turns in circles BUT if you trace the path of the spot, it is a spiral!
aye Nestor!

Cloudburst:
Nes, my best experience w/SD was like what you're talking about, I think - started deosil from the outside of the room into the circle proper, "unwound" at the end of the ritual

CJLEO:
what about the image of the cone?

Cloudburst:
made a very clear definition of sacred space/time, IMO

Red Deer:
aye leo, as the cone revolves, it is a spiral

Nestor11:
yes Cloudburst --that is one of the psychological insight which comes to many during the spiral dances

Red Deer:
back to the whirlpool or tornado again

CJLEO:
Or the ribbon image of the dance of the peptides

Red Deer:
aye leo...

Nestor11:
or light/matter falling into a 'black hole' would create a spiral to the unknown

Red Deer:
aye...

DelaChenaie:
i like the images of fractals, spirals within spirals infinity

Cloudburst:
Leo, I don't "see" much, but the cone feels to me like an upside down whirlpool - definitely spiral

Nestor11:
now it is time to look at what you do during a ritual which uses that energy which is created by the dance remember 'dance' is considered one of the 'Eight Paths of Magic" each of the 'paths' is a energy raising technique

CJLEO:
But the dance builds energy as it comes to the center - a cone with a zenith of energy and then spends it as it unwinds to return to the original circle.

Nestor11:
and combined in different patterns --create different psychological effect

Cloudburst:
Only if that's the way you see it, Leo

Nestor11:
and one of the definitions of magic is : Mental energy engineering

Cloudburst:
Try the possibility that it's a continuous build, with amplification every time people encounter each other and "shoot sparks"{G}

Nestor11:
Leo - at the end of the circle many tradition draw up the circle boundary back into the coven sword - and store the energy there

CJLEO:
Interesting, Cloudburst. I was taught that we were drawing energy from the center of the earth as we danced.

Nestor11:
sword = capacitor

Cloudburst:
Does that exclude humans as storage batteries and amps, Leo?

Nestor11:
both amplifiers and focuser of the energy raised

CJLEO:
No Cloud, everyone has what they need

Red Deer:
I think Cloud's point Leo, is that energy may be stored in, and therefore drawn from, many sources

Cloudburst:
also that wherever the energy comes from, what we do with it isn't intrinsic to the form of the work - it's up to us to "aim"

Nestor11:
and if I can say this without getting the screaming wrath that sometimes accompanies this: in many traditions it is stated that all power comes from the God and is given through love to the Goddess to be used

CJLEO:
And I agree, however we were talking about the spiral dance

Nestor11:
wisely and with wisdom

Red Deer:
from the God to the Goddess or the other way 'round Nestor?

Nestor11:
for those in more tradition covens -- please look at the re-enactment of the Myth at the second degree elevation ( read the farrar's book)

CJLEO:
depend on the tradition??

xlpopil:
It is like when I view TV images through my open-ended kaleidoscope to build experience from many sources.

Red Deer:
I ask as I learned the Goddess to be source and the God to be shaper

Nestor11:
well Leo is seen as the relationship similar in analogy of the sun and the moon

Cloudburst:
I think Nes is using the concept of the God as energy and the Goddess as form-giver - very common

Nestor11:
the sun give light but the moon reshapes it in magical ways

Cloudburst:
very{G}

Nestor11:
remember the first thing that you do in a circle is create the energy... God role in mating dance and the HPS shapes it into the Circle

Cloudburst:
Create, Nes? I would have said gather and shape...

Nestor11:
well the gathering and channeling of energy is the hunt for power to be given to the HPS and a part of the process is to 'create' the energy thought the use and movements of our physical bodies

Red Deer:
agreed Cloud

Cloudburst:
only in the sense that when you plug in the plug you "create" the energy for the light to go on...

Nestor11:
it serves as a concentrator of the natural energy being focused on the HPS to then use in creation of the new magical universe

Red Deer:
well, it seems we've run out of energy, whether created OR gathered {g}

Cloudburst:
{--obviously didn't get enough training. I wouldn't DARE try to create the magical universe by myself - takes help from everybody in circle{G}

CJLEO:
my experience of the spiral dance is that it gathers and shapes, and even as it does that it "creates" an energy of the whole

Cloudburst:
No, not "help" - participation.

Red Deer:
the *keys* to the Turning Wheel, as it were

Nestor11:
the Ogham and other sacred alphabets played a huge part in the transmission of wisdom among ancient cultures

Red Deer:
aye Nestor

Nestor11:
also going along with this is that in many traditions it is the right and duty of the High Priest to along wield the sword ( symbol and fact of the stored power) --when the HP removes the sword from the altar and hands it to the HPS to be used in the erection of the magical universe the myth of the Goddess and God - reenacted as the second degree is - physically relived