Samhain Facilitator : Red Deer Date : 26 October 1997

Red Deer:
If I may have you attention??? first a few formalities...
1) If anyone present would like to facilitate an open discussion or present a class in Wicca 101, please E-mail me at HUZD85A.
2) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class, until approximately 10 PM ET.
3) Please hold all questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.
4) May I have volunteers who expect to attend the entire session log for backup?
5) Thank you, loggers. I'll be in touch within the week if the back up logs are needed.
With that, I pass the besom to... ME, for an open discussion of Samhain - AFTER a brief presentation...

OK folks, I just have a few words on the sabbat, then we'll open it up for discussion
Samhain... the eve which ends the light half of the year.
Samhain... the eve which ends the Year and sees the birth of another.
Samhain... the eve which sees the thinnest veil between the worlds.
We all recognize this as New Years, as the time when spirits freely manifest upon this side of the veil, as a night when past and present overlap with the future. Herein lie the roots of most of our ritual and secular practices. In ancient Babylon, the scapegoat was sacrificed. In Scotland, the Witch (a symbol of evil since Christian times) was burnt in effigy. With whatever sacrifices were made to the need fires, people discarded the anxieties, fears and harms of the prior year in order to face the new one with a clean slate.

Mr Medieval:
only in the lowlands Red Deer not the highlands

Red Deer:
This night all fires were extinguished and the new lit, ONLY from friction (not flint) upon sacred oak. This night we associate with the spirits who choose to return.
...please bring us back to that in a bit Targe...

Mr Medieval:
I will

Red Deer:
This night we seek to divine the future.
This night we celebrate fertility.
Why??? (rhetorical question {g})
As the end AND the beginning of the year, Samhain is a night between. A time connected to all times - hence those of the past may easily return to mingle with us in the present. And visions of future events are easily obtained. But why fertility on the eve of death?
Please remember that ours is a religion of death-in-life and life-in-death. This night, the Morrigan lays down her arms by the river and makes love with the Dagda: Mother and Father of the Gods. At the end of the light half of the year (summer to the ancient Celtic peoples), the fertile earth is sown for spring. This night is the night of both the tomb and the womb. This night is, therefore, THE night when enactment of the Great Rite is most appropriate (in Celtic Circles, at least).
This night the Druids wemt among the hills and forests masked, to be unrecognized by the kelpies, urisks and other spirits which freely manifested in great numbers. This night horrid faces were carved in and candles shown from hollowed out turnip lanterns (and later pumpkin lanterns, but not until AFTER they arrived in the isles from the New World!) to frighten malicious spirits away. This night (in the oldest of Celtic lore) Hazelnuts were sought... hence it is a night of nuts and, by association, apples - though later lore places both at the end of the summer proper rather than the end of the year).

Well folks, that ends my little bit on the sabbat... let's have some discussion of what it means to each of us...

Puat Neteru:
that was a fine summary of a religious definition of Samhain

Mr Medieval:
In the highlands .... my clan would go to the hills alone and lite a fire ... comune with the departed, come back and set a place at the dinner table for them... to welcome them back

Puat Neteru:
in celtic traditions, the year was divided up into 13 months of 28 days each (the lunar calander) and needed an 'extra' day to bring it in line with the solar year this first day of the season of Samhain was that 'day which was not a day'from which we get the expression 'a year AND A DAY'. Samhain was that day

Cloudburst:
Re: your mention of nuts and apples, I think tree foods really belong to this time *between* - because the providing being lives through the winter (like we hope to{G}) trees provide a link between now and future- nuts are basic winter food

Red Deer:
actually, Puat - in most ancient cultures Yule was that day

Puat Neteru:
the question remains what does it mean to Wicca today, spiritually? everything else is just peas and carrots

Mr Medieval:
in the lowlands of scotalnd the did burn a symbol of a witch .... not the highlands

VunderVooman:
Did you say the the carving of horrific faces in turnips and pumpkins went from the New World to the Isles?

Red Deer:
no vunder... I said the pumpkins did

VunderVooman:
ok, thanks

Mr Medieval:
the highlands did and still do practice samhain

Red Deer:
carving turnips was already centuries old at that time

Cloudburst:
{--heard it was common to burn a symbol of bad spirits long before the Christians named the symbol "witch"...

Puat Neteru:
the 'witch' was a negative symbol even in prechristian times, it was an ancient germanic word for anybody who practiced magic outside the knowledge of the established preisthood

Red Deer:
aye, tis true cloud

ChokLitChip:
question?? All this is considered holy??

VunderVooman:
Why were witches burned in efigy on Samhain?

Puat Neteru:
it was part of the purging of negativity associated with 'new years'

Mr Medieval:
as a symbol of so called evil, to drive away evil spirits

Puat Neteru:
similar to Auld Lang Syne

PAniteowl:
As was the burning of the Corn Man and the Green man

Mr Medieval:
LOWLAND PRACTICE

MafiaMama3:
we got it, targe,,,

DelaChenaie:
It is a time of birth of the children concieved in the spring...

Peacemkr32:
Am I right to assume that the "witch" was indeed a symbol of negativity ?

PAniteowl:
Fire was purifying, not an evil entity

Puat Neteru:
the celts also usually forbid the taking of any food from the field after Samhain, as that food belonged to the spirits

Red Deer:
NOT until Christian times Peace

Puat Neteru:
yes peacemaker

Peacemkr32:
I agree Red Deer

VunderVooman:
OK, I am confused, who burned the "witch" efigy?

PAniteowl:
no, Peacemaker, that is an assigned opinion ..

Red Deer:
aye on the harvesting Puat, though some now say after Mabon

Puat Neteru:
not true host, it has always been negative, although only by the 'establishment' hence it also symbolized 'freedom of thought'

VunderVooman:
{--don't want to get stuck on this either

Red Deer:
Scots Christians Vunder

Puat Neteru:
yes, but it is still observed at Samhain in Ireland by a few

VunderVooman:
Oh, ok...that clarifys things

Puat Neteru:
it probably varied from tribe to tribe

Cloudburst:
{- hopes that no harvesting after Mabon is a flexible rule; my tomatoes are still trying to make{G}

Red Deer:
Witches have always cultivated a healthy respect, *almost* fear of their power... but in the oldest times there was NO established PRIESThood puat

PAniteowl:
Those who were deemed witches by retrospective Christianity, did not consider the craft "negative"

Peacemkr32:
Red Deer , isn't it that fear which people in general perceive as negative ? MafiaMama3:
true, pa,,,not untill the 1340's right?

Puat Neteru:
question:
if this night is truly the 'thinnest' night between the realms, every 'observation based' culture on earth should have knowledge of this night, or was it variable by location?
their were established priesthoods in ancient germany

Mr Medieval:
each clan in the highlands had a wise woman or man to act as healer, they also kept alive the history of each clan

Red Deer:
define ancient please puat

Puat Neteru:
and they posed that word to any 'opposition' by 'untrained' peasants

PAniteowl:
true Mr Med {G} ... as did other cultures throughout the world

Puat Neteru:
more than likely no older than 500 BCE

Cloudburst:
Can we lose the name "witch" for the symbol and agree that it's common tradition at hinge days to burn/destroy some image of the bad leftovers of the previous period?

Puat Neteru:
although the date of the origins of the word is lost, but it predated its being carried by the saxons to england like Wicccans today, it was no doubt carried with pride by the ancient witches

PAniteowl:
sorry Mama, am not sure of that date .. but I tend to think even before that

Red Deer:
but witchcraft is much older... evidence of goddess worship in Europe dates back more than 30,000 years

MafiaMama3:
ok

WiseWitch:
burning was also done to send gifts to the Gods, or messengers

PAniteowl:
True, WW ..

Shaddow:
in greek a translation of witch meant "murderer, thief..." etc. but that was before it was applied to us

Mr Medieval:
like the vikings did with their dead

Puat Neteru:
that association was applied by christians the word for a 'bad witch' in germanic was Hexen

PAniteowl:
Hmmmm, sounds like "Witch" was the common catchall phrase to scare people into new beliefs {G}

MafiaMama3:
but i thought the word witch came from the olde english word,,,wicca,,,,,

Mr Medieval:
history is written by the so called victors

Puat Neteru:
old english is a germanic language

WiseWitch:
Old German, Mama

MafiaMama3:
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,,,ok

Nestor1:
which is derived thru the Anglo saxon

VunderVooman:
I wish ya'll would get back to a discussion on Samhein

Red Deer:
actually, hexe meant to sit on the fence - how does that make one bad?

Puat Neteru:
yes, enought of the entymology of the word witch!

Red Deer:
back to Samhain?

Puat Neteru:
that is a question cultural in basis

Red Deer:
what are folk planning for the sabbat?

Puat Neteru:
perhaps sitting on a fence was a great insult in ancient germany?

VunderVooman:
yes please. How old is this observance?

xlpopil:
IS THAT ANY RELATIONSHIP TO SIX SIDED THINGS?

Mr Medieval:
even today a place is set at the table for those departed in the highlands of scotland

Puat Neteru:
possibly, but the term Hex as a six sided thing is from latin

Cloudburst:
different root languages, xpopil

Puat Neteru:
although there could be a connection

Red Deer:
comes from Hecate

PAniteowl:
The worship or observance of the ancestors is before recorded time, IMHO

Red Deer:
goddess of the crossroads

Puat Neteru:
Trivia, the three ways

WiseWitch:
We're having our usual ritual, with the addition of a NYT magazine reporter [g]

Puat Neteru:
i'm sorry WW

Cloudburst:
Crossroads=choice point=dangerous, not necessarily evil but to be approached carefully

WiseWitch:
why, Puat?

Puat Neteru:
it also means 'choices' and payment of the consequences of that choice

PAniteowl:
Hecate, Goddess of passage, at the crossroads is just as apt to sit and giggle with you as slap you with a trout {G}

Red Deer:
rofl PA

Puat Neteru:
not meant as an insult, but that sounds rather political (been there, done that)

VunderVooman:
Are there correlates to Samhain in the orthodox Jewish religion?

Mr Medieval:
from text I have found ... at least 4000 years Vunder ..... carvings found in neolithic sites

Cloudburst:
true fact, PA, but it's hard to predict which 'twill be...{G}

Puat Neteru:
Passover

Nymue01:
she is the gentle rain as well as the hurricane

PAniteowl:
I like Hecate {G}

xlpopil:
I know that the Amish in Pa make Six-sided designs to protect their home.

WiseWitch:
Sure, VV - correlates well to parts of Rosh Hashana

VunderVooman:
Mr Midieval, what carvings? Where might I find samples?

Puat Neteru:
the number 6 is symbolic of Harmonization, two body-mind-spirits come together

VunderVooman:
or examples

Cloudburst:
{--was going to say Yom Kipppur - the part about reflecting on the year and getting over the bad stuff, anyway

Mr Medieval:
I get books from scotland VV .... I can post the ISBN on the BB for you

Puat Neteru:
i would think it closer to passover, as we have A spirit roaming about, markings made to ward it off, and the celebration of harvest

MafiaMama3:
but that's the day of atonement, cloud,,,their version of confession, if u will,,,

VunderVooman:
M That would be very helpful Mr M

Mr Medieval:
my pleasure

Red Deer:
when was passover a harvest festival?

Puat Neteru:
it was originally the barley harvest

MafiaMama3:
never to my knowledge, hostie

Cloudburst:
Harvest doesn't time to Passover, even in the middle east.
{--defers any further discussion of the Jewish correlation to WW{G}

Puat Neteru:
actually, any book on jewish festivals acknowledge this

Nymue01:
isn't that at the wrong part of the cycle?

VunderVooman:
OK, I know this is dangerous {g} but could someone explain to me where the "evilness and satanism" that Christians see in Halloween comes from?

Red Deer:
we're only warding off SOME spirits Puat... we welcome many with open arms

Nestor1:
I would believe that would be Purim

MafiaMama3:
it was to allow death to passover the jewish homes of egypt,,,

Nestor1:
and not Passover

Red Deer:
I believe the book is incorrect... doesn't make climatalogical sense

Puat Neteru:
personally, i have never met any evil spirits but that is a personal thing

PAniteowl:
I would suggest "The Celtic Tradition" by Caitlin Mathews and the Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Legend by Miranda Green, and, of course, The History of the Irish Race, by MacManus for those interested

Mr Medieval:
many of the neolithic digs in scotland have burst the bubble so to speak the false hoods of the pagan peoples

VunderVooman:
Mr M, what do you mean?

Nymue01:
as well as the encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom

Puat Neteru:
perhaps today host, but who is to say what the climate was in ancient times, as can be observed, it is not longer a harvest festival, althought the 'meal' is still a big part of it

PAniteowl:
oh yes, Nym .. forgot that one {G}

Mr Medieval:
most of what is writen about the pagan people is done by Xians

Puat Neteru:
and also it correlates with the rites of Adonai Tammuz, who was a grain deity

Cloudburst:
meals are a big part of many celebrations, Puat - doesn't prove anything.

Mr Medieval:
but the digs have found recorded fact of how they live and worshiped

WiseWitch:
it's not difficult to get info on ancient climates - tree rings,pollen samples, etc give much info

Peacemkr32:
Mr M... imagine that... experts in the field........

VunderVooman:
Mr M, is that what you were referring to?

PAniteowl:
However, the recognition of the dead is not solely a provence of the Celts {G}

VunderVooman:
Thank you

WiseWitch:
Tammuz's festival, tho, was much earlier in the year, Puat

Red Deer:
nor is worship of the Mother

PAniteowl:
Aye, Red Deer {G}

Puat Neteru:
earlier than halloween, but not passover

MafiaMama3:
no need to be hateful about their wrongdoings,,,we all make mistakes,,,

Nymue01:
those seem to be universal beliefs

PAniteowl:
yes Nym, they are

Red Deer:
I feel much disagreement happens here because everyone wants info about Witchcraft to be Celtic synonymous... and it simply ISN'T

melilot:
we either learn from them mafia or repeat them can't change what has already happened {G}

WiseWitch:
Tammuz was after passover, tho, by several moons

Puat Neteru:
but onward and forward from Judaism

PAniteowl:
Aye Red Deer .. it sure isn't {G}

VunderVooman:
All Hallows Eve, then, is really expressing the pagan Samhain and putting a "Catholic" face on it?

MafiaMama3:
i know, meli,,,just annoys me that some in here constantly put christians down,,,

Puat Neteru:
i am more interested in the spiritual nature than the technical stuff

Nymue01:
yew VV

Red Deer:
you bet VV

Puat Neteru:
yes

melilot:
hosty my blood ties are so mingled that to follow only celtic would not be natural

WiseWitch:
didn't know you could separate the two, Puat

Mr Medieval:
samhain to the old ones of scotland .... was a time of rejoicing .... a time when those gone would come back and help those still here, to pass along info if you will to help them in the coming year

Red Deer:
all hallows was a Pagan celebration for millenia before Jesus was even a gleam in Mary's eye

Cloudburst:
{G}

PAniteowl:
So, can we all agree that the Neo Pagan Religion of Wicca has chosen to incorporate ancient rituals of respect for the ancestors and express this at Samhain?

melilot:
well mafia it's one of two things they either haven't met any true christians or they can't let go of the past

xlpopil:
They have a place set for the dead in some of the south america too where they buried them under their homes in a special pit.

Nymue01:
Yes..

Cloudburst:
yup

Red Deer:
I would PA

MafiaMama3:
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,,,ok

PAniteowl:
{G} Good ... now, what's everyone planning for the Holiday?

Nymue01:
dumb supper

melilot:
filling my freezer pa {EG} tricker treaters don't ya know {EG}

Mr Medieval:
some clans would go to the carins ... burial mounds and feast with the dead

Red Deer:
Going to Savannah with my Girl Scout Troop!

PAniteowl:
Yes, Mr. M ... and I like the dumb supper {G} too

WiseWitch:
doing ritual then renting a hotel room for private revels [g]

Red Deer:
and a solo ritual after they go to bed {g}

Red Deer:
hopefully not totally private WW

WiseWitch:
LOL

PAniteowl:
I really wish I could attend the Witch's Ball some year {G}

Mr Medieval:
going to the woods and being one with our mother and talking to my old ones is what I plan to do

Red Deer:
of the class, yes

PAniteowl:
Mr Med ... I'll think of you as I do the same {G}

melilot:
well pa lets try for next year E{G}

Cloudburst:
Friday I carve my mega pumpkin, Saturday I sleep in (definitely part of the celebration{G}). Formalities with my good buds at the open sabbat circle. Anyone going to DC?

PAniteowl:
OK Meli {G}

Red Deer:
that would be a kewl AMOK gathering

Nymue01:
I may Cloud

melilot:
OH NO HOSTIES IN MY HEAD

Red Deer:
{--- going south instead of north

Mr Medieval:
lets do it next year

Red Deer:
OH NO, LET ME OUT

PAniteowl:
heheheh ... oh oh ... a mind cluster !!!! {G}

Puat Neteru:
WW what is the name of your coven?

WiseWitch:
I'm in a Grove, Puat. Mugwort Grove, ADF

Nymue01:
Red Deer....take the candle light ghost tour of Sav.

Cloudburst:
Yeah, I noticed, hostie...what are the scouts up to in Savannah?

Puat Neteru:
ah, thats rite your a druid

melilot:
alright i'll start getting info so we can make our reservations now cause they probally fill up quickly

Red Deer:
just so happens that the founder of the GS, Juliette Loew, was born on Samhain

Puat Neteru:
{---will have his kilt on, like usual

Nymue01:
KEWL

Red Deer:
so, we go to her home for birthday / halloween party

Nymue01:
so was my oldest daughter

Mr Medieval:
as will I Puat

Red Deer:
I think it says something for GS that we were founded by a halloweenie!

Nymue01:
what are feelings on New Moon coincideing?

Red Deer:
POWERFUL Samhain

Nymue01:
YES

WiseWitch:
It's not JUST a New Moon - it's the SECOND new moon in the month!

Puat Neteru:
New Moon is symbolic of 'death' and rebirth, as is Samhain

Nymue01:
Sihde Moon

Red Deer:
new blue moon?

Puat Neteru:
a green moon? every moon is a shee moon

PAniteowl:
a symbol of continuance

Nymue01:
prehaps a sign of things to come

Cloudburst:
Maybe yes,Puat - "blue moon" already taken{G}

Puat Neteru:
a symbol that all things MUST change

Nymue01:
prehaps a "Wake Up Call"

melilot:
yes and we've seen SEVERAL blue moon over punderson state park

Puat Neteru:
anybody know where Saturn will be?

Cloudburst:
symbol that there's an exception to every rule/rules aren't what they seem?

PAniteowl:
hmmmm ... nope, more a symbol that though things change, we must respect the constants of our lives

xlpopil:
I wonder how long the pagan ritual was - with burnings an sex and all?

Red Deer:
{--- no BLUE moon here

Nymue01:
I believe Saturn will be retro

Puat Neteru:
the only constant in my life is spiritual growth

melilot:
about six hours xlp if your lucky

MafiaMama3:
but still a cute one, hostie,,,

Puat Neteru:
intriguing, the reversal of time

WiseWitch:
you mean the sex, Meli?

Cloudburst:
xlpopil, I suspect the ritual lasted the whole day and night, unless you're only thinking of the formal part

Red Deer:
at least WW

Nymue01:
several planets will be retro

melilot:
sex? i never think about sex ww

Red Deer:
maybe night and day Cloud?

Nymue01:
no she thinks about SEX!

Cloudburst:
{--thinks the ancestors made less distinction between ritual and life than we do

Red Deer:
you never DON'T think about sex meli

melilot:
LOL nymue

Nymue01:
I agree Cloud ,it was part of life

WiseWitch:
meli just never THINKS, she DOES

Red Deer:
{--- feels certain of it Cloud

Puat Neteru:
there was no religion for the celts, only day to day life

melilot:
from the time they awakened they were preparing for the ritual with their daily activities

Red Deer:
no puat, there was no day to day life, only religion

Puat Neteru:
rituals were how they conducted what many call 'mundane' or 'secular' affairs

Cloudburst:
meli, I'd say doing ritual IN their daily activities.

Puat Neteru:
disagree, strongly

Mr Medieval:
from the digs in scotland .... they lived life as one big ritual

Puat Neteru:
religion was introduced by christians

Red Deer:
based upon?

Puat Neteru:
and perhaps by greeks

Red Deer:
to where do you consign the many Pagan theologies and thealogies which preceeded Christianity then?

Puat Neteru:
spirituality

JHeuer:
let's not forget the egyptians

Puat Neteru:
religion is an established order of defining deity to control the masses... the egyptians created religion, under the pharoahs

Nestor1:
sorry Paut but most of the Greeks did not seperate religion from daily life --they were intwined

Red Deer:
this has little to do with Samhain

Puat Neteru:
a centralized 'form' for 'worship' under the pharaoh

Nestor1:
and the same held true for the Egyptians

melilot:
which was it puat first you said the xian's then you said the greeks now your saying egypatian make up your mind which one you think "invented" religion

Puat Neteru:
they did not seperate spirituality, but they did acknowledge religion

Red Deer:
PEOPLE... Samhain please?

Mr Medieval:
a from of samhain has been used by many different peoples

Nymue01:
ritual/religion/daily life...all intertwined

Nestor1:
religion and spirital contact with the Gods was a daily part of the lives of most ancient pagan cultures

xlpopil:
It sounds as if they lived and had a goog bite on their rituals - a living religion!

Red Deer:
Anyone planning any scrying this Samhain?

Puat Neteru:
i have been informed i am not allowed to discuss this subject

JHeuer:
festivals of one type or another can be found the world over this time of year. Seems to matter not which culture-each calling it by a different name

MafiaMama3:
as ALL religions should be, xl

Puat Neteru:
so back to Samhain... what does it mean to anybody beyond the religious context? Spiritually?

PAniteowl:
Always, Red Deer {G}

Red Deer:
Can you fill us in on some of the variants Fox?

Mr Medieval:
Red Deer .... is samhain the only time that we can talk to those long gone? .... couldn't it be done at any time?

melilot:
i think it's easier during this time mr.

Nymue01:
yes Mr M

Cloudburst:
I think yes, MM - just at this time it's easier and more people seem to be able to reach

PAniteowl:
Yes, Mr. Med {G} ... but at this time .. it's paramount {G}

JHeuer:
one moment, Red Deer

Red Deer:
Is seen as more efficient, easire because the veil is thinnest... but the veil can be penetrated at any time

Puat Neteru:
for what purpose would talking to ancestors serve?

Nymue01:
learning

Red Deer:
advice...

melilot:
i also feel they know the veil is thinnest and make themselfs more available

Nymue01:
reconnecting, healing

PAniteowl:
reconnecting .. yes

Puat Neteru:
perhaps it should be a time of contacting our ancient selves?

Nymue01:
should I go on?

Mr Medieval:
closure for some

Puat Neteru:
but any time is good for that

Cloudburst:
could be the same thing, Puat

Red Deer:
no one says times are bad for it Puat...

Puat Neteru:
i will repeat the same question i asked before, if the veil between worlds is thinnest on this day, why isn't this recognized universally?

Red Deer:
but this is the time in the annual cycle most isomprphic with the practice

MafiaMama3:
closure, targe? what kind of closure?

PAniteowl:
Well, we're forgetting one thing here .. in the natural cycle,it has been observed that more people pass thru the veil at this time of year than at any other

Red Deer:
in Pagan religions, do you have information that it is not?

Puat Neteru:
i have always observed this at Yule, when the sun dies and is reborn

PAniteowl:
Old warnings of watching for the leaves to fall, since that was a time of death ..

Mr Medieval:
saying good-bye if you didn't have the chance to Mama

MafiaMama3:
ahhhhhhhhh

Puat Neteru:
do native americans observe Oct 31 as the day when the veils are the thinnest?

melilot:
not you mafia {EG}

PAniteowl:
Is it any wonder that this time of year has been observed by many cultures as the time of the dead?

Puat Neteru:
i am asking, not making a point

Red Deer:
actually, setting a single date does not work...

Nestor1:
Puat -- you might want to consider that the enviroments in the different regions would effect the physical timing for each section

Mr Medieval:
not to sure on that one Puat

Puat Neteru:
because it is obvious nature is going thru this very thing, but in the southern hemisphere it just coming into life

Red Deer:
one must, within a given climate, look for the date when the seasonal cycle turns

melilot:
since we are discussing samhain and not native american holiday's puat you'd really need to ask them

PAniteowl:
Since the marking of time was done by the stars, it would make sense that it was used as the "gathering" focus

Puat Neteru:
i am asking a technical term

melilot:
there is a native american chat room where i'm sure they'd be happy to answer that question

Nestor1:
ie the Celtic summer/winter divide would be different than on in Mesoptamia or Egypt

Cloudburst:
Don't know about specific date, Puat - I'm sure the calendars are different, but the season's aren't

PAniteowl:
Yes Nestor

Red Deer:
and Witches in the southern hemisphere celebrate their sabbats in opposition to ours for just that reason

Puat Neteru:
so it is regional?

Peacemkr32:
sounds like it Puat

PAniteowl:
It is seasonal, and as the seasons are regional .. yes that is a good supposition Puat

Red Deer:
climatologic... that is, after all, what our religion is about connection with nature, therefore climate

Cloudburst:
How not?

Puat Neteru:
it is just that i would think that if this spiritual event does occur that those who observe spirits, like native americans, would notice this

JHeuer:
this season is celebrated by Catholics (all Saints eve), also several Native am. cultures

Nestor1:
the effects seem to mainfest often on a regional basis on what would be cross-quarter day

xlpopil:
Maybe people get a chance to wind down from the summer's actions and begin to put things into perspective in a more connective manner.

Cloudburst:
We don't iknow they don't, Puat - ask them

melilot:
to me you can feel the thinness of the veil when the seasons reach the climax between life and death

melilot:
but then i tend to feel the climaxes of life

Red Deer:
duh

PAniteowl:
aye Meli {G}

Nestor1:
but I am sure that the sloar holiday would be similar except for the Northern Hemisphere and Southern Hemisphere being reversed

JHeuer:
I feel the thinness every year around this time. Sometimes even see faint apparitions

Puat Neteru:
perhaps abundant life, as in plants and insects and hibernating and migrating animals, interferes with Spirit interaction and their departure begins a heralding of the acceleration of spirit contact

PAniteowl:
Although we currently are tied to the adopted Calendar, our own internal earth clocks do seem to agree with the seasonal aspects {G}

Puat Neteru:
{---sees spirits year round, with no noticeable acceleration this time of year which is why i ask

Cloudburst:
More concretely, in "temperate" climates this is when everything around us is dying - has to bring death to mind, to watch the world winding down

V Xasha V:
the answer is yes peoples, native americans do celabrate a day of the dead

PAniteowl:
Seeing spirits is not what we strive for at this time, but to acknowledge and show respect for those who have passed before us

Mr Medieval:
to see the plants go into winter mode

Puat Neteru:
symbolically, perhaps being in the state of mind from influence from an ancient ritual, and thusly accelerates the believers abilitites?

PAniteowl:
to watch the earth close in upon itself .. to reflect and renew

moonListener:
I think I live in the wrong hemisphere... this is the time of year I feel most alive, productive in some ways.

melilot:
plus when the earth is entering this phase the veil is as close to the thinness it was when they left this earth easier for them

Puat Neteru:
yes xasha, i know, but does it coincide?

Cloudburst:
{--sees this season as about the least in need of any kind of symbols. It's all around us

V Xasha V:
yes it does

PAniteowl:
Heheh .. so do I moon {G} ... an excitement, and rising energy levels {G}

Peacemkr32:
Moon, could be that this is when you're most connected

Puat Neteru:
so on halloween native americans practice their ritual of death observation?

moonListener:
I do my best (mundane) work in the fall

melilot:
could just be the cool weather makes ya wanna cuddle moon {G}

moonListener:
or that

Cloudburst:
Puat, why do you need it to be right ON Halloween?

Red Deer:
those in the southwest do puat

Puat Neteru:
here is my take on samhain, for any who are interested

Puat Neteru:
really close would be good enough

Cloudburst:
OK{G}

moonListener:
but that wouldn't help me get any work done now would it meli? {g}

PAniteowl:
why Puat?

Puat Neteru:
but it is not important anyway, just curious

JessikaMcB:
host? this will be my first Samhain celebration. As am solitairy, what would be appropriate to celebrate this sabbat?

melilot:
no body said that puat we've already told you to go ask the native americans about what they believe don't be putting words in peoples mouths puat

Puat Neteru:
why what?

JHeuer:
Inuit native tribes celebrate a late autumn festival on 3 nov

Nymue01:
Puat...it is my understanding that they use the New Moon at that time

Puat Neteru:
i am not, i was asking a question, don't suppose that i am trying to insult you

melilot:
i don't suppose that puat i suppose you are trying to get answers from the wrong people for native american religious beliefs you need to contact native americans

Puat Neteru:
nothing is black and white or linear, perhaps it is racial in nature, those from european descent might be more in-tune on Oct 31 than say, March 9, if anyone observed it then

JHeuer:
Jessika- honoring your ancestors, any friends or relatives or family members who have passed away is the primary aspect of Samhain rituals

Cloudburst:
Jessika: Carve a pumpkin. Plant something that will grow in the spring, like bulbs. Do a card reading. Get out pictures of your departeds that you feel loving about.

xlpopil:
I wonder,I think there is a shift to what we must do to survive and what we may like to do in a more interesting way,

Cloudburst:
Don't try to talk to them unless you feel up to it; just keep them in mind

Red Deer:
set a place for them at dinner

Cloudburst:
#1: get out there and *feel* the fall

JessikaMcB:
thank you all.

Puat Neteru:
my take on what Samhain means -} recognizing what you can do with yourself to better yourself, to allow the old you to die symbolically, so a new you can be born

Cloudburst:
Get real aware of what's going on around you. Walk in the dark in the leaves

JHeuer:
during this week, I will harvest several herbs which grow outside my house, and store them for the next year

Red Deer:
give your troubles to the natural world on that eve, and ask for a new beginning with the new year
aye fox, and put away tubers (sweet potatoes and the like) for the winter

PAniteowl:
ok, people .. I do have a Samhain project {G} .. I've found a tract of land .. a small part of the Appalachians .. 56 acres .. am negotiating to buy {G} .. Pagan retreat .. here we come!!! {G}

JHeuer:
I did not plant any of these, Red Deer

Red Deer:
I'll accept that as *part* of what Samhain is about puat
you'd probably need to be in the south fox {g}

Cloudburst:
PA!!!! REALLY???!!!

Red Deer:
that's why I say it's ALL climatalogical

Puat Neteru:
i would think that changing yourself and purging yourself of any rotting thing would be better spiritually than doing a lot of technical stuff? question?

MafiaMama3:
where in the appalachians, PA?

PAniteowl:
Yep, Cloud ... keep fingers crossed {G}

Mr Medieval:
sounds GREAT Owl

Red Deer:
KEWL PA!!! will keep an open channel of energy to your endeavor

Cloudburst:
To the max, Owl.

Puat Neteru:
just as the earth purges herself of the rotting PAST and prepares to embrace a LIVING future?

JHeuer:
I am in Fresno, CA gets very warm here with long summers. But i have only so much space, and most of my plants are perennials

PAniteowl:
oh thanks everyone ... {G} .. will let y'all know asap {G}

Red Deer:
not sure SPs grow well there fox, we don't usually harvest til the cold hits em

melilot:
wonderful pa

moonListener:
and we'll all be invited to come gather stones too, huh owl? {s}

Mr Medieval:
I'll build a perment alter then Owl

PAniteowl:
Am having a Water Witch in tomorrow to check for water availability {G}
heheheh .. Yep moon!!
OH Great Mr Med!!

Peacemkr32:
Coolness PA

Red Deer:
well folk, tis after 10, so I declare class (but not the discussion) closed

melilot:
guess that will take care of where the AMOK'S will wanna go {EG}

Red Deer:
loggs off

Red Deer:
and thank you for some GREAT discussion

PAniteowl:
Great Class Red Deer!!! {G}

Red Deer:
You should all thank yourselves... I just provided the schedule and a couple of introductory remarks.