The Godess & God in all Their Aspects Facilitator : Red Deer Date : 09 November 1997

Red Deer:
1) If anyone present would like to facilitate an open discussion or present a class in Wicca 101, please E-mail me at HUZD85A.

2) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class, until approximately 10 PM ET.

3) Please hold all questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

4) May I have volunteers who expect to attend the entire session log for backup?

melilot:
{---------------longing

Arcadia:
{---------logging

LadyOPeace:
{~~~~~~~logging

Peacemkr32:
{---- doing that Log thing

Red Deer:
5) Thank you, loggers. I'll be in touch within the week if the back up logs are needed.

with that, I open the floor for a discussion of "The Godesses & Gods in all Their Aspects... chosing two, a pantheon or whatever works for you!"

Diabolus:
{sighs} That's the problem with being Neo-Pagan... we NEVER get any classes! {pouts}

Red Deer:
So, whatdy'a think... one Lady / one Lord...more? many?...how to choose?

Nymue01:
they choose,

LadyOPeace:
I feel whatever is right for you

moonListener:
what if we dont call them by name at all?

melilot:
one lady one lord many aspects

Nymue01:
is it neeeded to call them by name?

Tallician:
I agree with Meli

Hart's Child:
I usually don't

Nymue01:
yes

JenniferJoan:
What ever works for you...go with it {G}

Peacemkr32:
hmmmmm, seems as perceptions of the same Moon

Nymue01:
neither do I

Nestor11:
RED DEER --while many traditions tend to boil it down to a single pairing of Gods or Goddess -- albeit that sometime the names are changed at different levels

LadyOPeace:
WEll we are ALL ONE anyway

Red Deer:
yes Nestor?

Diabolus:
How about this... the Lord and Lady are but extensions of the self... and the aspects seen are actually nothing more than the things we keep within...?

Nestor11:
but personally I tend to work with a pantheon --as work it depending upon the cutlure

Peacemkr32:
Sounds like tonight is right up my alley... Oneness

Hart's Child:
find that names can be restrictive

Diabolus:
{---just trying to add to the thought process.

melilot:
i personally don't name the deities they choose the form they feel is best not me

Red Deer:
if diety is only extension of self, where does self originate Diab?

Arcadia:
does mama and papa count {g}

Hart's Child:
r at least specific ones

Red Deer:
does for me sis

melilot:
counts at my house arc {G}

Nymue01:
I found myself very drawn to the Goddess of the Celts,Anu

Nestor11:
well Hart --while they may seem restrictive -- it is a little like turning a radio -- you want the specific frequentcy which hands the channel you are looking to work or listen too

Diabolus:
Self being energy... pure and simple... thus why we are all united and bound to the earth... that thought energy is what created us, and also what we created...

Diabolus:
Energy never being gained or lost... only changed.

Sir Cai:
ah, Great Mother

Hart's Child:
tend to be drawn more towards a feeling than a name

of course there's always Mother

melilot:
while i feel a name is too confining hart {G}

moonListener:
f any pantheons "God & Goddess" are of the "one", do names matter? Do we in fact, speak to the "One" after all?

Nymue01:
yes moon

Hart's Child:
think so

Diabolus:
We, all combined... ARE the "one".

melilot:
but by naming you are calling forth specific aspects

Nymue01:
names are put labels to relate too

Red Deer:
moon... I think you'll find *most* Witches consider the Lady & Lord entirely separate and independent deities

LadyOPeace:
I believe so Moon...... the ONE being the higher energy

Diabolus:
Two sides of the same coin, though...

Peacemkr32:
Yes Lady, as we are all fragments of that higher energy

Diabolus:
One could not exist without the other.

Sir Cai:
This is a bit of a modern construction, no? I don't think the Celts were likely to believe that the Dagda or Lugh or Dian Cecht were all aspects of a greater God

Nestor11:
well the name of the frequence has a lot of symbolism which help actually I do see then a specrate individual entities --but linking togheter in providing the totality of the sepectrum of the universe

Nestor11:
I would agree Sir Cai

Cloudburst:
How not, Cai? We''re modern constructions ourselves{G}

Red Deer:
actually, I believe they did Cai - which Ceaser referred to as Dis, 'cause he never could learn the name

Diabolus:
Good point, Cloud. {g}

moonListener:
agree to speaking to the "aspects" of the one thru L&L but I reach for a "feeling" not thru a name... perhaps this is the freq. Nestor speaks of?

Sir Cai:
so why then do we try to link ourselves to ancient pagans?

Sir Cai:
oops off topic

Hart's Child:
ame here moon

melilot:
to reawaken in a way that which we forgot when we gave up the ancient ways sir

Peacemkr32:
Sir Cai... because this "new age" movement is actually tuning back into old world ways

Sir Cai:
Red Deer, I'd have to argue that.. the Romans may have mistaken them all for one but I doubt the Celts did

Nestor11:
moonListener the feeling is associate with the energy of that frequency and it can be conveyed thru its symbology

Diabolus:
{---Neo-Pagan... thus being a "New Pagan" A reconstruction of old principles

Diabolus:
That's just me, though.

Nymue01:
more a matter of going back to the roots,and finding our selves

LadyOPeace:
I agree Nym

Nestor11:
No the Romans certainly did not see them as all one or even all equal in a persons life

moonListener:
guess since I "knew" the feelings before the names, it just works for me that way

Red Deer:
then I'm left to wonder why virtually all of the celtic symbols of divinity were also symbols of unity???

Sir Cai:
In fact, Ceasar's accounts are dubious in themselves in that he likens them all to Roman gods... it's a secondary extrapolation

Diabolus:
It is a matter of what is more important to the individual, though...

Nestor11:
for example the gods and goddesses and ancestors of my house would be similar to those of your house

Nymue01:
wounderful point hostie

Sir Cai:
I agree Nestor, the Romans wouldn't think all gods were One God

Nestor11:
but they would also be different

Diabolus:
The differing personas reflecting a different point in a person's life.

Sir Cai:
that is a Hindu concept

Red Deer:
agreed Nestor... I was referring to Roman chronicalling of Celtic religion - scarce as it was

Nymue01:
moon....that is the way is should be

Sir Cai:
symbols of unity? Red Deer can you explain? I'm afraid I don't know what you mean? What symbols and who interpreted them?

Red Deer:
without arguing whether all are aspects of one or not...

melilot:
i think it depends upon what is most comfortable to each person

Red Deer:
Why do we seek a polytheistic religion and then reduce it to monotheism - denying the need to recognize varying Deities?

Nestor11:
and beside the wider fuctions gods and goddess -- it was quite common to have special spirits attached to a particular place or event -- which were not usually included in the major part of the pantheon

Hart's Child:
personally think that there are many facets of the Lady and Lord and that all of them are different but all are essentially part of the same essence

Peacemkr32:
Sir Cai, when you "picture" a Rose, you see the same as I do.. a way to have commonality, ie, unity of thought

LadyOPeace:
essence = energy

Sir Cai:
monotheism is a concept that many of us are more comfortable with. I know growing up Catholic that it is ingrained in me

Hart's Child:
recognize them as different

moonListener:
es, I do feel the "aspects" as separate... yet not {g}

Red Deer:
won't argue that hart - but we are all part of the same essence, and yet (at least so it appears to us) all separate and independent

melilot:
if we make the gods /goddesses seperate from the whole how can we then be part of the god /goddess?

Nestor11:
Well RED DEER -- today is appeal of 'simplicity' is strong --but it is also a way of being able to not have to work at learning a lot of other materials too

Peacemkr32:
Meli, we are Fragmented out for a variety of reasons

Red Deer:
then why leave Catholocism Cai?

Sir Cai:
Peace, I was under the impression that Red Deer was talking about the symbols leading to a unity of the Gods, not a unity of the peoples... the latter I can believe

melilot:
but we are still part of the whole piece {G} no matter how different we be

Red Deer:
I am a Witch because the Craft IS a polytheistic religion... I don't seek to reduce it

Sir Cai:
Because Jesus didn't die for me, and because I found the Goddess

moonListener:
n my path, I didnt have access to all the knowledge, only my prayers/meditations and "feelings"... I only later came to know that there was wicca... I thought I was alone.

Red Deer:
People, PLEASE hear the IMO....

LadyOPeace:
But Sir...... doesnt a unity of the people lead to a unity of the Lords and Ladies?

Nymue01:
She was neveer lost Sir Cai...just hidden from us in society

Xori:
me too moon

Sir Cai:
true Nym

melilot:
he didn't die for me either sir i just see the unity which forms one whole from the two same as i see one whole formed by the union of any man and woman

Red Deer:
if we recognize ONLY the Lady, we are no different from the Christians...

moonListener:
nd some magick taught by my grandmother to have faith in Thats how I started too, and as of right now I am still in that grey area

Red Deer:
only the opposite - we denigrate masculinity instead of femininity

moonshadowd:
M All:
Catholicism LED me to the Craft. For years I observed my beloved Grandmother "worship the Virgin Mary". After growing older I put the pieces together.

Red Deer:
IMO again, there MUST be balance

LadyOPeace:
Must have Balance Red Deer {s}

Hart's Child:
haven't found the names or they haven't found me, but I have the feelings

Sir Cai:
did the Celts then stop the in-fighting amongst themselves because they have unified symbols? I don't think so. They did not believe in monism

Nymue01:
Agree Red Deer....balance is essential

melilot:
i'll know the names when i need to hart it doesn't mean i don't keep studing and learning about the different trads

Peacemkr32:
Can I make a comment that might tie all this together ?

Sir Cai:
that is, all goddesses one Goddess and all gods one God

Nymue01:
please peace

Red Deer:
{--- is not sure why a civilization that elevated warrior status should seek to stop fighting among themselves

melilot:
sir the celts won't ever stop fighting they like it too much that's one o the reasons for SDA

moonshadowd:
ES. Yet they take many forms they are ONE

Red Deer:
I don't believe they are documented to have fought and religious wars, however

LadyOPeace:
Yes Shadow

Red Deer:
please Peace

Sir Cai:
It was a counter-argument to an earlier statement, Red Deer, and I totally agree with you

melilot:
peace you can make a comment even if it won't tie it all together {EG}

LadyOPeace:
LOL Meli

moonListener:
yep

Peacemkr32:
If we can agree that there is One higher energy, we can see it in different aspects, ie, God/dess, Polytheism, or even Monotheism

Nymue01:
yes

Red Deer:
that's just it, peace... I personally do NOT agree that there is only one...

Peacemkr32:
It is those perceptions that we created to understand the higher workings in our simple physical brains

Red Deer:
IMO there are TWO

LadyOPeace:
Even as Polar Opposites they are still one

melilot:
and i view them as one when they are together

Sir Cai:
(and then this leads into a discussion on dichotomies, in my experience)

Nymue01:
I see One higher energy as the balance of the Two we speak of....equal

moonListener:
I think that maybe different cultures found names for the aspects of G&Gs that "they" appreciated or maybe needed in their time and place

Red Deer:
that is your belief, and I don't try to talk you out of it Lady... but you cannot state it as fact, and it is most definitely not mine

Hart's Child:
MHO it is sort of like the Christian Holy Trinity

melilot:
i really don't think anyone can state it as FACT

Peacemkr32:
Yes yes Yes.... as it was said before, different sides of the same coin... we need both to be whole

Sir Cai:
But the Christian Trinity was originally pagan

LadyOPeace:
I didnt

moonshadowd:
he Xtian Trinity was founded on the Goddess Trinity

Sir Cai:
Tertullian got it from African pantheons

melilot:
the trinity is just the male verson of maidian mother crone xianized

Sir Cai:
no, it was founded on the African trinity of Father, Mother, and Son

Red Deer:
and not only male, as the Spiritus Sanctus was female

Hart's Child:
hey are both separate entities, but must have the other to exist and this binds them together forever

Sir Cai:
as is still found in many African tribal religions today

Nymue01:
exactly Hart

Hart's Child:(I know that everyone, I was just making a point)

moonshadowd:
aiden, Woman ,Crone ,a trinity plus the "warrior" ?

Red Deer:
aye, agree they are bound together...

Sir Cai:
Father, Mother, and Son

moonshadowd:
ll are "Warriors".

melilot:
you ever seen a mother defend her child moon don't get no more warrior than that

Red Deer:
but what of our own personal Godesses & Gods?

LadyOPeace:
Bound together does not make them one?

Sir Cai:
that was the trinity Tertullian used for the Xian trinity

Hart's Child:
here are a million Holy Trinities and each one is equally valid

moonListener:
ye Meli

Red Deer:
nope, not for me Lady

Nymue01:
there is a trinity...yet within that they still have many different aspects

Sir Cai:
we can say all we like, but it is there in his writings and he is attributed with the "founding" of the Xian idea of the Trinity

Red Deer:
IMO, there are two trinities Nym

Sir Cai:
I agree Hart

melilot:
yep sir and if it's in writings it must be true {EG}

Red Deer:
Hers & His

moonListener:
lol

Sir Cai:
Not necessarily, mel, but it's got a lot more to back it up than any other theories

Nymue01:
I agree host...but they are still equal

Hart's Child:
ut could the two trinities exist without the other?

LadyOPeace:
No Hart

Red Deer:
which other Hart?

Nymue01:
no

LadyOPeace:
Could he exist without She..... no

Hart's Child:
ops. I said that wrong

Red Deer:
I'd say it's a matter of perspective...

Hart's Child:
meant one trinity w/o the other.

moonshadowd:
the Goddess lives so the God can die and then be reborn

melilot:
why not? depends upon how you view it man woman son maiden father mother crone spirit
Red Deer:
the millions of neurons in my brain are part of me, but they are each individual cells with the potential for autonomous activity, yet, without me, none of them exist....

Nymue01:
everything in life is a matter of perspective...and I don't believe there IS any right or wrong

melilot:
what happens to the whole if we say remove a couple thousand hosty {EG}

Sir Cai:
or, without them, you don't exist, Red Deer

LadyOPeace:
{~~~~~has a really dumb question

Red Deer:
IMO, so it is with the Deities, as well as all that exists in the universe

moonListener:
like removeing an "aspect"?

Red Deer:
true cai...

supposedly happens every time I take a drink meli

Sir Cai:
LOL

melilot:
we also have a left side and a right side to that same brain are they seperate or a whole {EG}

Red Deer:
yes Lady?

Sir Cai:
I feel like my head is going to explode anyway

LadyOPeace:
What is IMO??

Peacemkr32:
Red Deer... you brain cell killer you....LOL

Hart's Child:
o they come together to make a whole, but each is an individual?

Sir Cai:
in my opinion

Red Deer:
they are capable of totally autonomous activity meli

Peacemkr32:
In My Opinion Lady

melilot:
oh let me choose the thousand host i know just which ones i'd take {G}

LadyOPeace:
Ahhhhh Thanks

Red Deer:
I'd say they are separate, and together they make the whole of my mind

moonListener:
"butt neurons" meli?

Nymue01:
LOL

Red Deer:
IMO Hart, yes

Hart's Child:
can see that

Red Deer:
so, to me, that is VERY different from saying they are one... they FORM one

Sir Cai:
I have a silly question

melilot:
go for it sir {G}

Nymue01:
YES

Red Deer:
no question is silly Cai, if you haven't the answer

Nymue01:
semantics {g}

Sir Cai:
can a goddess cross more than one trinity division?

Like be a mother and a maiden, or a maiden and a crone?

Peacemkr32:
Yes Red Deer, But do they not form One larger item ?

Hart's Child:
rent some borderline anyway?

Cloudburst:
{--thinks yes, Cai

melilot:
i do it daily sir so i'm quite sure a goddess could

Sir Cai:
Okay

Red Deer:
I don't know - do they form one or many?

Cloudburst:
The ancients weren't as sure as we are{G} that every divinity had to be only one KIND

Peacemkr32:
Sir, I think the way to answer your question is to pose it to you. What do YOU think ?

LadyOPeace:
do the many form one?

Sir Cai:
So then why can't gods and goddesses cross boundaries from a part of the ONE to being singular in themselves? why do we need these boundaries?

Oh Peace, I've seen it in action

Nymue01:
what boundries?

Peacemkr32:
Ahhhh, boundries... another physical restriction

Red Deer:
I'd not say what a Goddess or God can't do Cai... supposedly there isn't anything

LadyOPeace:
They are singular Sir...... but one cannot exist without a polar opposite

Sir Cai:
The Morrigan as Maiden and Crone, Kali as Crone and Mother

melilot:
sir i just believe they form one when connected same as i do when i connect with my husband personal outlook their is no one belief each person must view it their own way

Hart's Child:
ouldn't it be easier to let the goddess be herself and not try to categorize her?

Sir Cai:
it happens Lady, and without unbalance

Peacemkr32:
Sir, then I'd say you already knew the answer to your question

Cloudburst:
Cai, I think the divisions are human constructions - trinities of all kinds serve to simplify the Big Everything.

Sir Cai:
I try not to live a dichomous life

melilot:
i think the goddess does that hart {G} regardless of what we think

Nymue01:
exactly Cloud

LadyOPeace:
Then that diety possesses both aspects of god and goddess?

Sir Cai:
and relegating the Divine into one seems simplistic to me

Pagan Dancer:
ambiguous

Sir Cai:
Cloud, I agree with you on that

Peacemkr32:
I need to ask 1 powerful question here.........

Hart's Child:
what does ambiguous mean?

Cloudburst:
If the one is the All, 'tain't simple{G}

Nymue01:
please Peace

melilot:
but sir life can not be formed by us without forming the one

Red Deer:
Perhaps the big everything is actually the big nothing, UNTIL the Goddess & God arise

Sir Cai:
not by us, but there are creatures that can

melilot:
well it can now {G} test tubes don't ya know

LadyOPeace:
interesting thought Red Deer

Peacemkr32:
why are we trying to look at higher energy being(s) under our physical perceptions. aren't we reducing them ?

moonshadowd:
do not separate the Goddess and God into smaller deities.

melilot:
last time i checked sir they had limited brain function compared to us {G}

Sir Cai:
why create life in many forms? Why not just make all life male and female like humans?

Cloudburst:
{--thinks RED DEER has a point there{G}

melilot:
i don't either moon

melilot:
what fun would that be sir? boring

Hart's Child:
agree Peace

Sir Cai:
So our brain function makes us more beloved to the God and Goddess, mel? I thought we were supposed to be on equal footing

moonshadowd:
equal footing?

Sir Cai:
my point Mel, why are we limiting Divine to fit male and female dichotomies

melilot:
makes us more like the image of the god and goddess not on equal footing we are hardly equal we are hardly even worthy of the gifts they've provided most times

Sir Cai:
Yes, I thought humans weren't revered above animals and plants, by the Creator

Hart's Child:
f we could completely understand the exact nature of the Goddess and God, our head would explode

Sir Cai:
but that, if we were, it was a biblical reference and Judeo-Christian anyway

melilot:
you may view them in any manner you wish sir doesn't bother me how you view them

Cloudburst:
If we want a creator who loves humans best, we know where to find one{G}

Red Deer:
IMO we are on equal footing with the rest of that which is physically manifested... NOT with the Deities

Peacemkr32:
IMHO..... it is more important to understand, than be understood here

Sir Cai:
then Red Deer, if not all creation is dichotomous, why must the Divine be so?

moonshadowd:
As when we participate in "Drawing Down the Moon"?

Red Deer:
give me a little more detail about your question please Cai

Sir Cai:
Oh I was just picking... no big deal.

Sir Cai:
I like to get people to think

melilot:
:::::::::::::::;SMACKS sir with frozen trout {G}

Hart's Child:
what was the question? I seem to have missed it.

Red Deer:
your thoughts Cloud?

Nymue01:
IMO...they choose us

Cloudburst:
My form of practice, thealogical constructs, etc. are largely my choice, sort of - depend on my perceptions, etc.

Sir Cai:
hum... here's a thought. Gods and Goddesses as archetypal needs deified...

Cloudburst:
but my primary alignment never felt like choice at all

Nymue01:
I feel they guide our perceptions

Sir Cai:
Jung flashback

Nymue01:
a gentle nudge here...or a swift kick there

Cloudburst:
Right on both counts, Nimue{G}

Red Deer:
I've not 'chosen' any Deities...

Sir Cai:
Or, a psychic bee up the butt

Nymue01:
no need

melilot:
i can personally say they've never given me a swift kick

Nymue01:
IMO

Peacemkr32:
The proverbial "frozen trout smack"

melilot:
usually slow and deep into the rectal area

Nymue01:
meli...I must be getting YOUR share

Hart's Child:
what is it with trouts?

Cloudburst:
Me neither, RED DEER, if means picked out particulars to talk to.

Red Deer:
Mine called me... but I have to realize that they called through constructs I could deal with... and that those constructs are very different for each who hears Them call

melilot:
{----------keeper of the frozen trout

Nymue01:
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RED DEER

Hart's Child:
aha!

Sir Cai:
and the Monty Python videos, apparently

Hart's Child:
I agree RED DEER

Nymue01:
Goddess sent-------}Monty Python

Sir Cai:
I agree Red Deer...

Cloudburst:
We have these backgrounds that color our perceptions. I would likely not have found the Craft nearly as soon if I'd grown up in an apartment, IMO

Peacemkr32:
RED DEER, Would you agree they are perceived by each person in a way they're most receptive ?

Nymue01:
yes Peace

Nymue01:
sorry Red Deer...that was your ????

Cloudburst:
I would, Peace - including some find their own exact fit in their religion of origin

Peacemkr32:
hmmmm, now that causes a dilemma

Cloudburst:
????

Red Deer:
that's what I was trying to say in my own bumbling way Peace

Peacemkr32:
that dilemma..... if that point is true, then this class is a mute point

CJLEO:
what kind of dilemma, Peace

Sir Cai:
mute?

Red Deer:
moot

Sir Cai:
you mean "moot"

Peacemkr32:
oops, typo... moot

LadyOPeace:
Peace{~~~~~King of typos

Hart's Child:
what is a dilemma? I spaced out.

Peacemkr32:
{---- thinks faster than he types

Cloudburst:
real discussion rarely moot, IMO

Red Deer:
well folk, we have less than three minutes for the logs (although this great discussion could certainly continue)... any one want the last words on the archive?

Peacemkr32:
The point of the class is a question of whether they chose or we did, if we see that it is our receptability, then this class it just simple chat

melilot:
look the goddess is a big breasted red-head with bad attitude once a month and the god is a stud muffin with a touch of blood lust end of story {G}

Nymue01:
WORD

PAniteowl:
LOL

LadyOPeace:
LAST

Peacemkr32:
sure, I can spell the long hard words.....LOL

Sir Cai:
LOL

Sir Cai:
Go MEL!!!

Cloudburst:
jeeze, meli

Hart's Child:
OL

melilot:
now ask me in a week and they won't be the same {G}

Peacemkr32:
Meli, why are you saying my sister is the Goddess ?

Red Deer:
OK, with that I'm closing the logs... but PLEASE continue