Correspondences About the Circle Facilitator : Red Deer Date : 04 January 1998

Red Deer:
1) If anyone present would like to facilitate an open discussion or present a class in Wicca 101, please E-mail me at HUZD85A.
2) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class, until approximately 10 PM ET.
3) Please hold all questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.
4) May I have volunteers who expect to attend the entire session log for backup?

Arcadia:
{---------logging

Red Deer:
you're quick tonight sis {g}

Arcadia:
hehehe, as usual

Red Deer:
5) Thank you, loggers. I'll be in touch within the week if the back up logs are needed.

LadyGrnEyes:
she was ready for you, Red Deer {g}

Arcadia:
{------likes to be "on top" of things

LadyGrnEyes:
hehehe

Red Deer:
With that, I pass the besom to... me for a few comments, then all of us for a focused discussion.
I'd like to examine the quarters tonight, with their corresponding elements and tools...but I do NOT want to go for an in-depth discussion of each quarter, element and tool - as I'm thinking we'll devote an entire class to them one set at a time in the upcoming weeks

Arcadia:
okey dokey Red Deer {g}

Red Deer:
Before I open the floor, I'd like to try a little experiment...

Alaindrea:
call me a guinea pig wait....animal experiments are bad

Arcadia:
lol

Red Deer:
I want everyone to answer the following four questions WITH regard to their own personal practice (rather than tradition) and WITHOUT looking at anyone else's' answers before they input...
OK?

LadyGrnEyes:
ok

Medbh:
Sure

Pagan Dancer:
no thanks, I'll just watch

Red Deer:
11 folk haven't agreed or disagreed to participate

PAniteowl:
k

Nestor11:
ok

SALEM W:
k

Alaindrea:
ok

Owlmajick:
ok

Arcadia:
righto

Red Deer:
9 of 15 - can we go for everyone?
well, perhaps that's too much to expect... so we'll go with what we've got

Arcadia:
come on people, don't be shy

Red Deer:
question ONE -

Sava Winter:
sorry, i just got here

Red Deer:
What ELEMENT and TOOL do you associate with EAST?
{--- water and chalice

Alaindrea:
h2o and cup

Owlmajick:
Air-Wand

Medbh:
Air...wand

Arcadia:
Air and wand

Nestor11:
fire=wand sometime or air-sword in more traditional working

LadyGrnEyes:
air....wand

PAniteowl:
Air {g} feather

Red Deer:
you would PA {g}

PAniteowl:
LOL

SALEM W:
pisces and wings

Alaindrea:
lol

Red Deer:
so, question TWO -

SALEM W:
lol

Red Deer:
what element and tool with SOUTH?

Medbh:
fire...sword

PAniteowl:
Fire - censor

Owlmajick:
Water-Chalice

Alaindrea:
earth, wand

Nestor11:
air=sword in personal , fire=wand in traditional

Red Deer:
{--- fire and wand

Owlmajick:
oops---Fire-

Arcadia:
Fire....censor

Owlmajick:
getting ahead of myself

LadyGrnEyes:
fire....censor

Alaindrea:
um, sword

Sava Winter:
do you use a wand for all the quarters?

Red Deer:
whose the question addressed to Winter?

Sava Winter:
anyone who can answer

Red Deer:
now for question 3 -

Red Deer:
nope Winter - I only use wand for 1 quarter

Alaindrea:
me2

Sava Winter:
ok, thanks

Medbh:
Same here

Red Deer:
what element and tool for West?

Nestor11:
cup =water

Owlmajick:
Water-Chalice

Arcadia:
Water, chalice

LadyGrnEyes:
water...chalice

Medbh:
Water....chalice

PAniteowl:
Water .. chalice

Red Deer:
{--- air and sword

Alaindrea:
fire, zippo(open flame)

Arcadia:
lol Alain, try a candle {g}

Alaindrea:
that too

Alaindrea:
drea, please

Red Deer:
and finally, for North?

Arcadia:
ok, drea

Red Deer:
{--- Earth & torq

Alaindrea:
air, incense or wand

Owlmajick:
Earth-Stone

Medbh:
Earth...incense

Nestor11:
earth pentacle

Warmuth:
Earth = Pentacle

PAniteowl:
Earth - stone

Arcadia:
Earth, pentacle

LadyGrnEyes:
earth...pentacle

Red Deer:
anyone care to comment on the summation of these responses?

Alaindrea:
they are all pretty different

PAniteowl:
yep, we all have our own ways .. personal to our own rites

Alaindrea:
but i think that's o.k.

LadyGrnEyes:
everyone uses what system works best for them

Alaindrea:
we all do what works best for ourselves

Sava Winter:
we all use what we have and feel comfortable with

Arcadia:
I think each follows what fits in ones heart EH

Red Deer:
yes green, but it looks to me as though MOST folk are close to the traditional systems published in most books...

Warmuth:
depending on traditions...East is Wand or sword, South is Wand or Sword, West is chalice or cup, North is Earth or Pentacle

Red Deer:
East = air, South = fire, West = water, North = earth

Alaindrea:
{---not like most anything

Red Deer:
with a bit more variation in the tools though

melilot:
{---------goes by what it means to me via the region i live in

Nestor11:
well I use two systems

Sava Winter:
i read books and then follow my own way

Alaindrea:
me2

LadyGrnEyes:
most people used the systems in a book when they started

Nestor11:
depending on if I am working with a group or on my own

Red Deer:
ooh, meli... I love the way you do it..

Warmuth:
I, too, Nestor use 2 systems

Nestor11:
I use the traditions air, fire, water, earth combo in group, but when working alone I use fire= red=sunrises in the east, air-white hot summer, sun= south, west= gray of cold water, and dark or black of earth in the north

Sava Winter:
i'm always on my own nestor

melilot:
do what? i still got my clothes on

Red Deer:
well Nestor, if you remember I asked folk to respond re their PERSONAL usages, not group or trad

Alaindrea:
often i work without any tools

Sava Winter:
me too drea

Warmuth:
But are you relating them to just Elements or to Watchtowers or gatekeepers???

Red Deer:
and I use water in the east because there are 250,000 acres of water due east of my home

Red Deer:
hmm, Warm...

PAniteowl:
{g} .. the water is West of my home Red Deer {g}

Alaindrea:
I am relating to gatekeepers

melilot:
east is water to me lake michigan

LadyGrnEyes:
water is north of me {g}

Warmuth:
Are you using them as direction on this plane or not?

melilot:
south is fire due to the heat

Red Deer:
could you assign an element to a direction (such as fire to south) and then assign a DIFFERENT watchtower in the same quadrant (such as spirits of water)?

Nestor11:
it set up a polar balance on the east west axis and the a sub pole on the south north axis

Alaindrea:
but I don't need them that much anymore

melilot:
north is air due to the frigid air

Sava Winter:
wouldn't they cancel each other out Red Deer?

Warmuth:
I wouldn't but you can do what you want

Alaindrea:
i am not going by this plane, no

melilot:
west is earth due to the wide open lands to the west

Nestor11:
in the center they all join in the white candle of the spirit

Arcadia:
not a reflection of those north of you I hope sis {g}

Red Deer:
IMO Warmuth, since the Craft is a nature-oriented religion, it makes sense to assign them based upon the Nature within which an individual lives!

melilot:
depends on which parts facing north love {g}

Sava Winter:
hey enough picking on those of us in the north

Warmuth:
As I said, it depends on what they represent to you

Nestor11:
but is not the Circle separate and apart from the physical --is it not a world between the worlds 'separate and apart'

Red Deer:
I've also been perusing some Australian information of late...

Sava Winter:
and that is the point isn't it warmuth?

Alaindrea:
i agree with nestor

Red Deer:
they tend to assign fire to the north - where the tropics are in relation to them, and earth to the south - where the cold pole is in relation to them

PAniteowl:
that would make sense Red Deer

Alaindrea:
and i have learned a new way to create a circle which is truly separate from this world

Red Deer:
is the circle separate and apart or is that which it contains separate and apart with the circle as the boundary between the two Nestor?

Sava Winter:
so with so many different interpretations of which element is where who's to say who's right

melilot:
is anything really ever separate and apart when all is of one whole ?

Sava Winter:
yes mel

Red Deer:
well, for me part of the point is just that Winter - CAN anyone say that one way is right and another wrong?

Nestor11:
within the boundaries --but as we discuss last week --you are creating a universe

Arcadia:
good point Mel

LadyGrnEyes:
no one is right or wrong, Sava...it's what works best for each individual when working alone

Owlmajick:
there is no wrong or right

Sava Winter:
that was my point

Alaindrea:
no, it is separate form the space- time limitations of this plane

melilot:
{----------is always right but only as it applies for meli

Nestor11:
agreed Alaindrea

PAniteowl:
I have a comment ... Red Deer ... May I????

Red Deer:
IMO that's the problem with the fundamental religions including some of Christianity and Islam

Warmuth:
The Circle is a place apart from the Physical..... it is a place between. If your circle is only based on Earthly directions, I guess it wouldn't matter what represented what

Red Deer:
go for it PA

Alaindrea:
i am not creating a universe I am tapping directly into the source

PAniteowl:
I can usually orient myself in whatever circle, no matter which element is assigned at what point ... however

melilot:
and the source is part of this plane also alain so you are also of this plane while in the other

Warmuth:
A Circle is a Universe....AS above, so below

PAniteowl:
I can not orient myself in a NA wheel circle ... it does not feel comfortable to me

Nestor11:
and the Universe is a sphere

PAniteowl:
I feel totally dislocated ... any ideas why??

Alaindrea:
yes, otherwise i would not have my body and I would be plainwalking

melilot:
heck pa in high school east represented the center of learning school was east E{g}

Sava Winter:
i think a circle is a separate place from the "normal" world

Arcadia:
no clue Owl, having never been in one myself

Red Deer:
perhaps because the medicine wheel spokes are more aligned to constellations rather than polar directions PA

Warmuth:
Then you must ask yourself if the Elements are elements or are they Elementals

melilot:
but it is still part of the whole which includes the normal world but then my idea of normal and yours isn't going to match anyway {g}

PAniteowl:
{g} .. ok Meli .. but it really did surprise me that I was unable to center myself there.

Red Deer:
and there constellations are VERY different from the "traditional" EuroAmerican ones

Owlmajick:
isn't this conversation analogous to theologians debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin??

PAniteowl:
Hmmmm ... that could be, Red Deer ... I tried "finding" my place, but couldn't do it

Alaindrea:
kind of

Sava Winter:
good point owl

Red Deer:
it would be if the point were to determine a RIGHT answer owlmajick...

Warmuth:
I thought we were exchanging ideas

Nestor11:
even the culture of ancient europe saw the constellation as quite different from each other

melilot:
imajick 23 angels can dance on the head of a pin but only after two gallons of mead a piece

Red Deer:
but I'm only out for us to develop an understanding of how we each arrive at the "same" place by different avenues

RunningWolfx:
PAniteowl it might be because of what the Medicine wheel was being designed for.... the purpose of that healers use may not been one of "grounding"

PAniteowl:
Thanks, Runningwolf .. I was trying not to intrude, but I didn't realize how different the circle would be

Nestor11:
Owlmagick my friend --i think this is much more a share of each other concepts that a debate on which is the 'true' system

Red Deer:
and to help any newbies here understand how we can have so many different "right" answers

melilot:
when we open ourselves to others views imajick we tend to have a open and receptive outlook

Warmuth:
Right now constellation wise....jupiter and Mars are aligning and Venus is disappearing under the Horizon......In old times that would be an omen of WAR

Sava Winter:
still could be

PAniteowl:
Oh Sheesh .. Thanks Warmuth {g}

Alaindrea:
it is still an omen of war

Nestor11:
still is

melilot:
could still be warm otto's been a moron the last two days

Red Deer:
pardon my semantics Warm... but that's not really constellational...but planets

Arcadia:
lol Meli

RunningWolfx:
food is short and must go warring for more food!!

melilot:
war doesn't always mean global

Sava Winter:
so we all go about in different ways but the end result is the same

Alaindrea:
war can be spiritual

Warmuth:
Sure it is...in a week or so Jupiter and Mars will look i like one star

melilot:
it can also mean a court battle or some such alain

Sava Winter:
war is a cleansing of the earth

Red Deer:
tell that to the Vietnamese Winter

PAniteowl:
No, Alaindra .. War can be the loss of spirituality IMHO

Sava Winter:
yeah i know, but i didn't say i agreed with all of them

Red Deer:
Another question...

Nestor11:
War can be the restoration of spiritually and the cleaning of one soul --give for a high cause

Warmuth:
War is a lot of things...but mostly it is pain and death and horror and bad vibes

Red Deer:
for those of us who do NOT use the "traditional" correspondences, which ties are stronger?

PAniteowl:
sadly, I agree, Nes

Red Deer:
quarter to element? quarter to tool?

Red Deer:
or element to tool?

melilot:
war does have it's good effects warm just like anything else

Red Deer:
THIS CLASS IS NOT ABOUT WAR

PAniteowl:
quarter to element for me Red Deer

Sava Winter:
quarter to element

Arcadia:
for me, it is quarter to element

Nestor11:
quarter to elements

Sava Winter:
hmm, how did we agree on that one?

RunningWolfx:
quarter to element to tool

Sava Winter:
thanks wolf

Warmuth:
East = Wand....

PAniteowl:
{g} because tools are just that, Sava .. a tool to use .. the "magick" is in the elemental quarters {g}

Red Deer:
and in your observation of others' variances - do they more often keep tools and elements together or tools and quarters or elements and quarters?

Arcadia:
the quarters and elements always exist, tools don't necessarily

Warmuth:
South = Sword

PAniteowl:
Aye, Arc {g}

Alaindrea:
there have been magikal shock waves here: as though giant bubbles are popping

melilot:
the magick is in ones self pa regardless of where you find the elements in the quarter

Warmuth:
West = cup...North Pentacle.. these are the traditional ones

Red Deer:
interesting...

PAniteowl:
right!! Mel {g}

Red Deer:
it seems to me that folk almost ALWAYS associate CUP with WATER, regardless of in which direction they place them

Nestor11:
and most have it in the West

Sava Winter:
hehehe, even non pagans do

RunningWolfx:
I find it depends on "what" the circle was cast for to what "tools" I might need...

Red Deer:
same for PENTACLE or STONE for earth - even if it's not in the north

Warmuth:
Cup is associated with emotion and female energy

Nestor11:
and the earth is usually seen in the North

Arcadia:
I associate it that way EH because of relating Water and Cup to the Goddess

Alaindrea:
i have often used salt for earth

Sava Winter:
i don't usually use tools simply because i don't have them all yet

melilot:
i think earth works best for me for earth

Red Deer:
You missed the important part of my point Nestor - even when water and cup are in the east, south or north - most folk keep them together

Warmuth:
The Pentacle is the lightning rod that connects to Earth

Sava Winter:
why is that Red Deer?

Nestor11:
ah ok yes they do

Red Deer:
but every one here said that the alignment between element and quarter was the strongest...

melilot:
cause the cup is needed to hold the water unless you have a large body of it right there

Sava Winter:
makes sense then

Red Deer:
seems to me that we designed tools to manipulate elements physically - so the tie remains logical magickally, even when you move the elements about the circle

Arcadia:
not I EH, Cup = Water= West= sunset and the appearance of the moon, + Goddess

Red Deer:
arcsis - now I'm not talking about what one person does, but about what we see when we examine the practice of numbers of people

Sava Winter:
but if your water is ice couldn't you pair with any of the tools?

melilot:
couldn't it mean east then also arc

Warmuth:
are we talking about just things or are we talking about objects of significance Magically....one must make up your mind

Red Deer:
sure you can - what happens to ice when you hold it Winter?

melilot:
only for about three minutes sava then it melts

Sava Winter:
depends on where you are

Red Deer:
must one?

Sava Winter:
just a thought

Red Deer:
I don't agree that the "things" and the "objects of significance magically" are separate entities Warmuth

Red Deer:
the "things" ARE the "objects of significance?

PAniteowl:
Warmuth ... sometimes if feels "right" to change the normal placements and practices.

Red Deer:
oops, that shoulda been an end-quote

melilot:
things help one focus

Red Deer:
but then, I'm also the one who sees NO separation between the sacred and the profane

melilot:
one does not need silk sheets but sometimes their nice to have

Warmuth:
You must put the significance in the objects, why are they meaningful to their placement

Sava Winter:
i agree PA, just to try different methods and find which one works best

Red Deer:
I put the significance in them?

Owlmajick:
the tools are an extension of your spirit- -therefore they are what you are--wand=cup=stone=censor=self

Red Deer:
they have not significance of their own?

Warmuth:
What do they represent for YOU

Arcadia:
all "things" are magical, just by being, which gives them significance

Sava Winter:
they must have some meaning since everyone uses them

Red Deer:
whoa... representation and significance are two TOTALLY different things

melilot:
i don't know if they do Red Deer you'd have to ask you tools

Red Deer:
mine assure me that they have their own significance without me meli

Warmuth:
But there are DEEPER meanings...not always found in books

Arcadia:
aye Warm

Red Deer:
yes, and are they determined by the practitioner or are they innate Warmuth?

melilot:
and did they also have this significance in their past incarnation

Red Deer:
even though their representations may change from one practitioner to the next...

Alaindrea:
some will never be written in books, they don't belong there

Owlmajick:
personally, i find that true magick happens without tools--the spirit is magick--the tools and circle are for rituals

Warmuth:
Depends on your opinion....but if you don't know the deeper meaning...how will you ever know

Red Deer:
Warmuth - sounds dangerously close to I'm right and your wrong

Warmuth:
The Power is not in the tool...but what it REPRESENTS

Nestor11:
and please be aware that the 'tool' are themselves only symbols' for the element and our assigning quarters to them is also a 'symbolic' act -- all of which is very power to the individual and in the subconscious

PAniteowl:
agree with Nes

melilot:
wouldn't that depend on the tool warm

Red Deer:
I disagree - I am not ONLY a human - I am PART of Gaia

Arcadia:
agreed Warm, or everyone would be wearing those "power" crystals, only 19.95 {g}

RunningWolfx:
yes to redefine what the circle is cast for helps me for Magick or for ritual or for celebration or for healing etc.... makes my tools take on a different "symbol" or usefulness...

Red Deer:
and so, my tools are not ONLY tools, they are part of the divine

Alaindrea:
i agree I am part of the source

melilot:
we're back to all things from one source gang

Warmuth:
what we use Physically as tools are only what will convince that inner part of you to open up and release the Magick

Nestor11:
and when traditions pass down their symbologies --the operate very strongly on the individual subconscious --setting up a more powerful and direct linkage

Owlmajick:
but Red Deer--isn't my coffee mug part of the divine also--my toothbrush as well{g}

melilot:
how do we know we are not the tools of the things we call tools?

Sava Winter:
but are tools really necessary for anything but being there?

Red Deer:
yes, they are owlmajick

Warmuth:
AGREED Nestor

melilot:
also your dirty underwear imajick {g}

Red Deer:
whoa Winter - have I said tools are necessary at all?

Owlmajick:
LOL

PAniteowl:
Hmmmm ... the tools help some to focus .. others, well the tools are just distractions when working Ritual .. different strokes, folks {g}

Alaindrea:
your tools are what you created them to be, they are extensions of the self and perhaps where it meets the divine

Sava Winter:
no, you haven't Red Deer

Red Deer:
thank you... IMO, they are NOT

melilot:
pa i view everything as a tool the trees the ground my hands

Red Deer:
but not being necessary does not make them unimportant

Sava Winter:
ok, that's what i thought, but i wanted to make sure

Owlmajick:
how did the assigning of quarters begin?? ( I know there is no answer for this)

melilot:
but the greatest most powerful tool i've ever come across is my mind

Warmuth:
Agreed Red Deer

PAniteowl:
I understand, Mel .. {g} .. we're into a semantics battle here {g}

Nestor11:
are you taking physical tool -- or the ability to visualize and use the symbol of the tool and its energy value with out the physical tool being present?

Alaindrea:
both

melilot:
we're always into semantic battles Red Deer likes them

Red Deer:
if I can get some folk to volunteer to teach classes, I'll let THEM determine whether to get semantic or not PA {g}

Sava Winter:
symbol and energy nestor

PAniteowl:
We create our own trigger mechanisms, Nes {g}

PAniteowl:
hehehehe

melilot:
{---------changes Red Deer's name to "king of semantics"

Red Deer:
Y'all now how much importance I attach to semantics, so when I facilitate, it'll be a focus!

PAniteowl:
LOL

Nestor11:
for me while when working in a group the use of the pyschical tool become more important since it keep everyone mental energy focus and in synch --it then is very important

Warmuth:
But some Triggers are there because we are Homo sapiens

melilot:
we also know the importance you place upon you "tools" Red Deer

Alaindrea:
Red Deer is king, not queen?

Red Deer:
let's get Zen Nestor... I'm meaning BOTH

Nestor11:
when working as an individual --a visualization of tool is most helpful

melilot:
{--------is queen of the universe

Red Deer:
well, some folk mistake me for a Queen Drea, but not most {g}

Alaindrea:
{---- is the universe

Sava Winter:
once again nestor, i agree

PAniteowl:
Hehehehe ... that's "SuhManTicks" to you, ya ol Southerner {g}

melilot:
not from the front they don't Red Deer {g}

Alaindrea:
not like that

Owlmajick:
important point--I am a solitary---are tools more important for group work for focus--?? perhaps

Arcadia:
or that butt Red Deer {g}

Sava Winter:
i am a solitaire as well

Red Deer:
rofl PA

Warmuth:
{-----Empress in MY Universe

melilot:
heck if i know imajick the "group" i work with doesn't use tools much

PAniteowl:
It is helpful to direct group energy thru common visuals Owl

Nestor11:
Red Deer with all due respect --when working in a coven or group the physical tool take on other fuctions -which are not needed always in individual working and to forget that is to limit you understand of the role of tools

Alaindrea:
the group i work with doesn't work together much

Sava Winter:
but if you are working alone aren't tools just a distraction?

Red Deer:
expound Nestor?

Owlmajick:
that is my experience Sava

Alaindrea:
to some they help focus

Sava Winter:
mine too owl

PAniteowl:
Yes Nestor .. group workings do work better with common symbology

Alaindrea:
they helped me to learn to focus my energies

Nestor11:
well when I work in coven with say the athame and cup --there are meaning which every member knows and direct their energy on that frequency then it give it a great psych boost

Red Deer:
the tools are used to bring the group to harmonic focus?

Nestor11:
yes they do

Sava Winter:
but i don't work with a coven so wouldn't my outlook be different?

Red Deer:
which isn't necessary when you're working alone...

Alaindrea:
yes, what else

Red Deer:
think of each individual's input as being like a sine wave...

Owlmajick:
i do enjoy exchanging ideas--but I get concerned that even the term "Wicca" brings expectations and confinements

Alaindrea:
it can be used in the same manner to bring a solo. prac. into focus with the divine

Nestor11:
well when working alone I enjoy using the tools but they do not always serve that am purpose --I have found that after much practice that the mental image of the tool can be extremely effective too

melilot:
so does the term human imajick

Sava Winter:
i agree owl, it is getting too stereotyped

Red Deer:
/\-/\-/\ plus /\-/\-/\ equals a wave twice as big

Owlmajick:
many people get upset if I refer to myself as a "witch" but tell them that I don't "practice Wicca"

Warmuth:
AGREED...because all focus in the same what on the tool, the energy is on the same "wavelength"

Red Deer:
/\-/\-/\ plus -\/-\/- equals ZERO

Nestor11:
and the pluses gain the energy, or lose it

Sava Winter:
right owl, i run into the same thing

Red Deer:
tools help group assure they attain the first version

Nestor11:
agreed EH

Warmuth:
The same goal

PAniteowl:
agreed EH

Sava Winter:
ok Red Deer, i see your point

Owlmajick:
you lost me EH

melilot:
it isn't on the top of his head is it sava? {g}

Sava Winter:
might be mel

Sava Winter:
but i understand what he's trying to demonstrate

Nestor11:
I believe ( and it is only my belief) that the sychronicity effect when all the member of a coven are in tune --it the reason that so much more energy can be created and focused than on individual operation

Red Deer:
where owl?

Owlmajick:
/\-/\-etc...

Nestor11:
this is not to say that a well trained and disciplined individual can not produce as much energy --but it is just harder to do the level of work

Alaindrea:
I had the luck of finding another human being with which my magikal energies are always are always in tune

Red Deer:
of course it can Nestor...

Warmuth:
I Agree Nes

Alaindrea:
we kick

Red Deer:
rather like batteries - put 'em in series and the voltage goes up

Owlmajick:
and usually someone's ego goes up as well

Red Deer:
or in parallel and the ability to sustain power output goes up

Red Deer:
is that any different from non-magickal groups owlmajick?

Sava Winter:
yeah but one large battery can put out as much power as many little ones

Red Deer:
but Winter, the one large battery can NOT put out as much power as itself PLUS the many little ones

melilot:
but you can only make a battery so big before it's not useable sava

Owlmajick:
no--but magick is a powerful tool to allow egos to get in the way

Alaindrea:
agree

Red Deer:
power corrupts owlmajick

Owlmajick:
it can be dangerous

Red Deer:
magick is no different

melilot:
egos tend to destroy the magic

Sava Winter:
all i'm saying is that those of us who are solitaires are capable of producing results as well as a coven

Owlmajick:
where there is a group--there has to be an ego

Alaindrea:
magick is not about who has the biggest battery!;>

melilot:
that would depend on the coven sava

Alaindrea:
agree

Red Deer:
where there is an individual there has to be an ego - the potential problem in groups is the clash of egos

melilot:
i've seen it otherwise imajick

Alaindrea:
and the Coven's goals

Sava Winter:
i've never worked with a coven but they are still individuals

Alaindrea:
not if the coven works right

PAniteowl:
{g} Yes Sava .. and a coven of strong Solitaires are indeed awe-full {g}

Red Deer:
well, since we've totally devolved from the topic for class... let's call it a night...

Red Deer:
logs off!