East = Air = Wand Facilitator : Red Deer Date : 11 January

Red Deer:
first, the usual formalities
1) If anyone present would like to facilitate an open discussion or present a class in Wicca 101, please E-mail me at HUZD85A.

pixielite:
mm

Nymue01:
BB's are VERY quite lately

Red Deer:
2) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class, until approximately 10 PM ET.

3) Please hold all questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

4) May I have volunteers who expect to attend the entire session log for backup?

and since my dear sister isn't here tonight, I REALLY need a backup...

PAniteowl:
Host, I haven't made it thru a class without getting bumped in months .. sorry

Warmuth:
don't know how to log

Owlmajick:
{----------- i will log

Cloudburst:
{---don't know how to log. Is Arc's area still iced up?

Red Deer:
5) Thank you, owlmagick. I'll be in touch within the week if the back up logs are needed.

Red Deer:
so, for tonight's topic... I'd like for US to explore EAST, AIR and WANDS...

I accidentally posted twice - once for swords once for wands...

Warmuth:
how INSPIRED

Erendil:
If I can be of help sure I'll help, this is my first time here though

Red Deer:
guess I'm kinda AC/DC on air and fire tools

Cloudburst:
{g}

Red Deer:
which tool do most of you associate with air?

Erendil:
athame

LadyGrnEyess:
wand

Erendil:
sword

PAniteowl:
feather

Tallician:
wand

MarqisDeSade:
dagger

Owlmajick:
wand

Cloudburst:
feather, usually

Nymue01:
feather

Warmuth:
Wand.....do not think Sword and Wand ore interchangeable

Erendil:
I always thought of the wand as fire

Red Deer:
let's see... 3 knives, 3 wands and 3 feathers...

PAniteowl:
I do, Warmuth

moonListener:
wand

Cloudburst:
Best wand I ever used was a leafed branch that fell at my feet - and it definitely belonged to Fire{g}

Red Deer:
according to the Farrars, wand is the "traditional" correspondence for air, but the Golden Dawn deliberately confused it with sword and many, having learned sword due to the ruse, use this correspondence.

Warmuth:
agree

MarqisDeSade:
I'm a bit fond for the Order of the Golden Dawn, that may explain my association of the dagger with wind.

Nymue01:
feather feels right to me

Red Deer:
they suggest that one use whichever one feels more comfortable with.

Nymue01:
more of a natural assoc.

Erendil:
why would sword be fire?

Owlmajick:
the Tarot associates the sword with air also

Red Deer:
forged

PAniteowl:
Steel is tempered with fire Erendil

Red Deer:
I'm intrigued with the feathers, though...

Erendil:
and water

Warmuth:
It is a tool of ACTION

Cloudburst:
Erendil: fire<>war<>swords, IMHO

Red Deer:
both sword and wand seem definitively male oriented - whereas the feather is not so much

Nymue01:
the feather works with air

Nymue01:
not blocking it

PAniteowl:
hmmmm ... I never thought the wand was male oriented

Warmuth:
except it is long and pointy

Red Deer:
rofl PA - how many males DON'T have one?

PAniteowl:
but the feather is a natural construct to work with air

Nymue01:
LOL

Warmuth:
Definitely MALE PA

Red Deer:
I'm agreeing... seems a more matrifocal tool

Nymue01:
pointy and unfeeling?

PAniteowl:
Oh .. sheesh ... shoulda known how you were using the wand {g}

Nymue01:
LOL

Warmuth:
Wand is representative to the phallus

PAniteowl:
I guess I'm used to "handling" the wand {g} ..

Erendil:
yes feather is definitely air, as my grandmother used to use and I use often, the sword I use because of the Golden dawn training

LadyGrnEyess:
LOL

Red Deer:
well, I consider wands representative of trees,

Nestor11:
With all due respect -- I would view the wand as nearly the ultimate male symbols

Red Deer:
but then, I suppose they are representative of phalli...

Erendil:
true enough

Warmuth:
My Husband certainly thinks of it as the Magick Wand

Erendil:
lucky you

Red Deer:
EXCEPT that tress were around long before phalluses were

Nestor11:
the Sword which is more representative of the mental process should be attributed to air

Nymue01:
but Warm...aren't you the one working magic WITH it?

Nymue01:
{g}

Cloudburst:
before human phalluses, anyway, Hostie{g}

Warmuth:
He does help

Nymue01:
but the feather will become one with the air

Red Deer:
so you disagree with the Farrars presentation of the Sword for air as a rouse enacted by the Golden Dawn, Nestor?

Erendil:
giw boring Cloud, {s}

Warmuth:
Many Wands are carved as Phalluses

FireHeart:
I agree with the feather to represent air

Warmuth:
I disagree Nestor

PAniteowl:
Hmmm .. wand as a branch of the tree of life?

Erendil:
What kind though, each bird has its own meaning and energy

Red Deer:
aye, even brooms (wands with straw) were often phallic

Red Deer:
works for me PA... branches which bend in the breeze

Nestor11:
EH -- I feel that swords are much more fitting to air than wands

Nymue01:
I use that of a hawk

PAniteowl:
Hmmm .. new thought process forming {g} .. thanks Hostie

FireHeart:
I use one of a hawk as well

Cloudburst:
My main one's from a jay, Erendil - very fast, VERY smart{g} - and a bit of a trickster, like minds

Red Deer:
thanks PA - that (to me) is the ultimate compliment

PAniteowl:
{g} any feather will work for me ... depends on what mood I'm in {g}

Warmuth:
I feel the Wand is the "connect" of thought and the lightning rod between Goddess/God and Man/Woman

Erendil:
The sword or actually the dagger, athame feels better as an air tool to me in its use, though the feather for certain rituals works better, I think it depends on how masculine or feminine of an energy

PAniteowl:
Oh, Warmuth, you're thinking of the Magician Card of Tarot?

Erendil:
energy I'm invoking

Warmuth:
no....as the connector between Humans and the Divine

Pagan Dancer:
Solve et coagula

PAniteowl:
wasn't that the R/W - Golden Dawn influence of the Tarot symbology?

Erendil:
takes the food of other birds, naughty naughty, Cloud

Owlmajick:
to me the wand is like an antennae---concentrating and then sending waves out into the air

Nestor11:
but EH please remember in my workings I set up a counter balance with fire=wand=red=east and water=cup=gray= west as one pole of action

Cloudburst:
Takes the good thinks out of other people's minds, maybe{g}

Warmuth:
Don't know about that...thinkin of talk I had with Patricia Crowthers

PAniteowl:
Mostly, I use the feather, for that is a construct especially of those whose life is spent primarily in the airy realms

Cloudburst:
Anyway, except at feeders they take care of themselves 0 it's only when they get around humans they take up theft{g}

Erendil:
blame it on us measly humans

Nestor11:
and then I use a more passive second axis from south to north with air=sword=brilliant white= south to earth=pentacle or salt=darkness=north

Cloudburst:
We DID set up this particular competitive situation, Erendil...

Erendil:
caw caw

Red Deer:
have we any other attributes for air and east - with either wand or sword - than lightening rod, and binding?

PAniteowl:
When concentrating on the air Elemental, it seems natural to "spread my wings" .. so that is my mind picture

Erendil:
new beginnings

Warmuth:
Inspiration

Owlmajick:
new beginnings---ideas

Warmuth:
illumination

PAniteowl:
cleansing ... circling ... encapsulating

Red Deer:
how about that which is imperceptible, but whose power is evident everywhere?

Cloudburst:
"flying" off on my continuous intellectual tangents>inspiration> good thinks>new ideas

Warmuth:
don't listen to me tonight.....my brain is nonfunctional

Erendil:
I have been using a more Chinese association of direction as well as what my Great Grandmother taught and the directional associations are slightly different

PAniteowl:
{g} .. yep ..

Cloudburst:
Oh yeah, Hostie, that too!!!!!

Erendil:
the east associations I have in the North

Cloudburst:
new beginnings

PAniteowl:
second chances {g} the sun will rise tomorrow {g}

Red Deer:
initiation?

Warmuth:
night night all

Owlmajick:
"just thinkin' about tomorrow--clears away the cobwebs and the sorrow....."

Erendil:
In the method taught me, North was air, East was Fire, South Earth, and West was water

FireHeart:
as a new day is "born" each day in the east, I see east as rebirth

Cloudburst:
{wavers into a rousing chorus of "Tomorrow"} {{{PA}}}

Pagan Dancer:
MP Lady Warmuth

PAniteowl:
Heheheh

PAniteowl:
yes, Fireheart

Cloudburst:
initiation as first step (like graduation="commencement")

Red Deer:
wow, have we exhausted this set of associations?

Pagan Dancer:
dedication, intent is first step I think

Cloudburst:
I don't use it, but East=Fire has appeal - also sunrise, I think

PAniteowl:
hmmmm ... at one time, yes Cloud, now I see it as the rebirthing .. reincarnation theme

Nestor11:
May I pose a question -- In what direction is the new person first brought into the circle?

Nestor11:
circle

OnFire4G0D:
Hey friends what's happening?

PAniteowl:
from the East, in mine Nestor

Nestor11:
ah ok --since many do it from the North-east

Red Deer:
aren't all beginnings in the east?

PAniteowl:
All enter from the East, no matter their status

Erendil:
east

FireHeart:
I am solitary, but I always start my circle with the east

Owlmajick:
I am a solitary Nest--can't answer that one

Cloudburst:
When I had a set circle, we only had an entrance in the West - just kinda MADE it work, I guess{g}

Nestor11:
north being the place of rest and the land of Persephone

FireHeart:
I end with the North

Nestor11:
and the fire of the rebirth of the east through the function of the wand --might be an item to consider

Cloudburst:
I've had choices at times, and went with East when possible for bringing in someone new

PAniteowl:
{g} .. that would make sense to me Cloud .. birthing from the waters is something I have considered {g}

Erendil:
as I have found Nestor

Nestor11:
it is just a though 'submitted here for your approval' in the Wiccan zone {g}

PAniteowl:
Hmmmm ... using that symbology Nes .. West for entry would compliment East/Wand as a cycle ... HMMMM

Cloudburst:
Wish I'd thought of that, PA - it was more like that's where the door was{vbg}

PAniteowl:
ok folks ... you're expanding my perceptions tonite {g} .. I LIKE IT

Nestor11:
PA that is one of the concept behind the two axis system I was mentioning

Erendil:
If any have read the I Ching you will notice different associations for the directions, and I have come to the conclusion that each land has its own correspondences, its own sacred plants and other

China Umii:
regreetings all

Erendil:
other associations

China Umii:
ok...time to hike up to the attic

PAniteowl:
true, Erendil .. cultural locations will influence our choices

Cloudburst:
Think you're right, Erendil, especially where directions are concerned.

Erendil:
as in the colors of corn in Native American Rituals

Cloudburst:
If we're really paying attention to the nature we live in, things come into play like "where is the nearest body of water, really?"

Nestor11:
yes Erendril -each tradition and culture would often have their own sets of correspondence -- so each has merit --but they do not always agree with each other (that's fine) but that is also the problem of mixing

Erendil:
yes and what kind of body

Nestor11:
systems in ritual work

Red Deer:
wouldn't that make sense Erendil?

Red Deer:
that a nature oriented religion would have directional associations based upon the local climate, rather than some "master" plan for everyone...

Erendil:
yes which is why I use the association of my Great Grandmother

FireHeart:
I think that it all goes back to what feels right to the individual, what has the most significant meaning to them

Red Deer:
that would seem reasonable, so long as you live is the same (or similar) climate that she did

Nestor11:
one of the points that I hope that people are getting is less which is 'right' or 'wrong' but rather that a system to be effect should have internal consistency

Erendil:
the Earth gives the directions

Cloudburst:
<-wonders if Witches in Australia, who have sensibly reversed the year, have done anything with directions

Red Deer:
aye Nestor!

Erendil:
She was from Georgia, Tsalagi

Red Deer:
Cloud - THEY HAVE

Red Deer:
usually fire in the north

Red Deer:
earth in the south

Erendil:
for Europeans

Nestor11:
the EH is the major problem I see when people just pick up part of any system and toss them together with out knowing why or what they are creating on a subconscious level

Cloudburst:
Aha!!! fire in the direction of more heat

Erendil:
yes

Erendil:
the great fire arises from the east

Cloudburst:
internal consistency, even if it's just for the one ritual

Red Deer:
but that would be EuroAustralians...

PAniteowl:
sorry folks .. bumped again >>>> grrrrrrr

Red Deer:
I've never encountered any aboriginal data on directions...

Nestor11:
that is also why people should understand each part of the ritual and every action ---BEFORE they go and do it

Red Deer:
they look more at the dream-time routes

Erendil:
the land of family and actions is in the south, rest in the west and the north is contemplation, the mind, ie air

Cloudburst:
It was the Euro-Australians I was thinking about, EH - all those Brit transplants

Red Deer:
agreed Nestor

PAniteowl:
{g} agree Nes ... but will admit, other perspectives and reasoning make sense in context also {g}

Cloudburst:
I don't remember anything about absolute ESWN-type directions in MUTANT MESSAGE...

Nestor11:
the ritual evoke the subconscious association and helps them manifest -- that is why when doing group working it is import that everyone understand the same set of symbols and ideas

Erendil:
?

Erendil:
quite true

FireHeart:
exactly, Nestor

PAniteowl:
yep Nes

DrkDream:
BBL..{g}

Red Deer:
Cloud?

Nestor11:
PA -- there are a lot of excellent systems --each one is valid --but you should work with one system at a time

Cloudburst:
Yes, deer?

Nestor11:
it helps the mind function more effectively

Red Deer:
mutant message?

Cloudburst:
MUTANT MESSAGE DOWN UNDER - last reading on Australian aborigines. Sorry...{g}

Nestor11:
shall we say with the intellectual sharpness of the sword ?{g}

PAniteowl:
agree Nes, but much of the input afforded by the Net has made me step back and look at others interpretations. I'm trying some on for size, and find they fit {g}

Cloudburst:
Oh good, Nes!

Red Deer:
thanks

FireHeart:
I have been at large open rituals where the high priestess/priest explained the directions and associations that were to be used and why to the group before the ritual. Everyone focused better

Nestor11:
yes there are a lot of system which are very function and clearly defined

Nestor11:
that is an excellent idea Fire heart

Erendil:
as it should be in group rituals

Red Deer:
I'd expect that in any open group ritual with new folk participating Fire

PAniteowl:
An open group ritual should be a learning experience

Red Deer:
but, I'm kinda stupid that way {g}

Cloudburst:
Wish we'd done that at one I was involved with...

FireHeart:
Since theirs were different from mine, I appreciated the explanation and functioned much better

Erendil:
that's an interesting concept, where to put new members or visitors

Nestor11:
indeed Fire Heart and PA -- seeing and working with other system often give you greater insights in to your own

FireHeart:
yes

PAniteowl:
yep

Cloudburst:
OTOH, I love the eclecticness of FMR, which derived from habits several of us learned in real-time open circles of having invokers use their own system (except which direction is which{g})

Erendil:
in the east of new beginnings or the south in my system the earth, the place of the people and their daily actions

PAniteowl:
{g} .. agree Cloud!!!!

Nestor11:
one of the things I always like to do is before a person works in a group --you walk them physically thru the ritual a discuss each step --every action --and its meaning

Erendil:
eyes

PAniteowl:
and btw .. {g} the flood waters here were caused by airs from the South!!! LOL

Nestor11:
then you have them do it for themselves with you assisting them

Cloudburst:
major function of prededicant class, IMO, Nes

PAniteowl:
aye

Nestor11:
indeed Cloud

Cloudburst:
so everybody knows what's going on before they get in there

Nestor11:
it also allow for the individual to blend more easily their energy into the group actions

PAniteowl:
Ok, hostie .. a question ....

Red Deer:
I have a question...

PAniteowl:
LOL

Red Deer:
you first PA

PAniteowl:
you first {g}

Red Deer:
JINX

Cloudburst:
{g}

PAniteowl:
STOP THAT!!!!

Red Deer:
go ahead PA

PAniteowl:
LOL OK

PAniteowl:
I look at air as being most powerful ...

Nestor11:
have you ever noticed that if a person is not 'in tune' with the system when they are initiated how the energy of the group sometimes seem to become 'unbalanced' for a while until the blending is made?

PAniteowl:
you can damn the water, put out the fire, dig the earth .. but winds are inescapable .. unless you can learn to work with them ..

Erendil:
as a bird would

PAniteowl:
what are others impressions?

Erendil:
there is a Chinese Fable I know of the Contest between the Sun and the Wind

Cloudburst:
Also, air is necessary for at least water and fire...

PAniteowl:
yes Erendil?

Nestor11:
hmmm ___ I see the 5th element as the most effect (not powerful) for it allow all the other 4 to balance and function as a whole

Red Deer:
well, PA to add to that, air is also seen as the breath of life, the animator, the spirit on the wind

Red Deer:
so maybe...

Erendil:
they both wondered who could make the man take off his coat

PAniteowl:
yes .. but Nes .. the 5th element can not survive without air

Red Deer:
can ANY element survive without the others?

Red Deer:
I mean, in the long run

Nestor11:
could any element truly survive without the spirit --or even it counterbalance???

Erendil:
absolutely not

PAniteowl:
no, we're interdependent

Erendil:
the five elements are needed for the function of all life

Erendil:
the wind lost PAniteowl

Cloudburst:
also needed for the function of each other. Whole system interdependent

Nestor11:
so I see each element as having it 'proper' function in the grand system of the Gods and Goddess

Erendil:
its' balanced function

PAniteowl:
{g} thanks Erendil .. good story .. now I remember it

Red Deer:
and really, no one more powerful than the other... although perhaps less mastered by our species...

Red Deer:
but, the damned water is merely impeded, not stopped...

Erendil:
individually speaking of course

Red Deer:
and the doused flame returns whenever conditions are hot and dry enough

Erendil:
semantic thing Event Host

Red Deer:
and, no matter where we move the earth, she still moves herself again

Erendil:
doused is dead

PAniteowl:
yes, Host ... but even the smallest air current effects the land, scours the face of the earth ..

Cloudburst:
Without fancy technology like airplanes, Air is still the one we can't get some control over - unless having houses with walls counts{g}

Red Deer:
so does the smallest rain, the smallest fire PA

Nestor11:
EH what can the earth move against or thru if the other do not exist??

PAniteowl:
{g} .. right, Cloud ... we can "deal" with it, but can't really control it {g}

Erendil:
Ahhh another story I know Cloud about the wall and the rat

Red Deer:
my point is that control of even fire, earth or water is only an illusion - a fleeting thing

Erendil:
what do you mean by control"

PAniteowl:
true, Hostie .. yet the wind is always having an effect ..

PAniteowl:
there is not static state to the wind

Erendil:
as all the elements do Owl.

Red Deer:
sure there is PA, when it stops blowing

PAniteowl:
not as a constant, Erendil ..

Erendil:
]have you not felt the stillness before the storm Owl?

Nestor11:
hmm would question the concept of 'all is an illusion' which is part of the presumption of that idea EH

PAniteowl:
ahh, Hostie ... it is always moving somewhere at sometime .. {g}

Red Deer:
well, if you stretch it like that, so are water, earth and fire...

Cloudburst:
He wasn't saying everything's an illusion, Nes, just that our "control" of the elements is

Red Deer:
no fair to make different rule for your element to let it win {g}

PAniteowl:
{g}

Red Deer:
what cloud said Nestor

PAniteowl:
Ok ... Ok ...

OspidergirlO:
Greetings and Salutations.

Erendil:
take an arrow, fire, and a bow water with air and shoot that bird down

Nestor11:
can any element truly 'win' -for does not it existence depend of the existence of its opposite???

Erendil:
in a five fold system there are no opposites

OspidergirlO:
an element can existence if you believe in it well enough, I think.

Cloudburst:
Yup, Nes - we wouldn't know hot if we didn't know cold, etc.

Erendil:
?

OspidergirlO:
Or love from Hate.

Nestor11:
ah the Erendil --should I say its 'couture-point"??

OspidergirlO:
Very true Cloud.

Nestor11:
counter point

Cloudburst:
Erendil, I kind of see it as ESWN/center

Erendil:
sorry Nestor?

Erendil:
oh interesting

Nestor11:
nope good point Erendil

OspidergirlO:
Event host, how old?

Cloudburst:
...in which case there can indeed be opposites, except I like "apposites" better ( positioned in contrast to, not in opposition)

Erendil:
in a five point system what you call spirit resides within the pentagram

Nestor11:
ok another great way of putting it Cloud

Red Deer:
I thought it was at the apex of the pentagram...

outermyst:
i am back i just got knocked off i had to start over

Erendil:
that's' in a four element system that include the spirit as its fifth

Red Deer:
what's the difference between the two Erendil?

Erendil:
in a five fold system the spirit is actually a sixth element

Nestor11:
and remember that a circle is but a special form of the ellipse --in which the major and minor axis have the same focal point and the same lengths

Red Deer:
or, what's on the fifth point?

Red Deer:
point - of this five point system without spirit on one?

Erendil:
spirit is the center of the pentagram EH

Red Deer:
my question is what are on the five points then?

PAniteowl:
and what elements stand at the five points Erendil?

Erendil:
there are organic associations not common to European associations

Cloudburst:
Everything comes in fives, hostie, EXCEPT our culture's cardinal directions{g} Pentagram has lots of (oh, dear) "points", but directions may not be one of them

Red Deer:
then you're discussing a system without the elements?

Nestor11:
yes Erendil and I believe that the Chinese use metal and wood as points ?

Red Deer:
cardinal directions are in fives Cloud...

Red Deer:
east, south, west north ASSUMES a center to be relative to

Cloudburst:
ESWN+up and down=6. Five???

Nestor11:
but here in the main we are working 'western' systems

PAniteowl:
Oh .. now I understand what systems you refer to Erendil {g} .. they don't come readily to my mind .. but I have seen references

Red Deer:
then you can add up and down for seven

Cloudburst:
Oh - gotcha.

Nestor11:
with the elements at the points and the individual or their soul in the middle

Erendil:
wood, fire, earth ,metal ,water

Red Deer:
but center is more like 0 or null...

Red Deer:
so, it depends upon whether you are counting intervals or ordinals

PAniteowl:
ahhh .. the light is dawning {g}

Red Deer:
Well folk, my clock say 10 PM - so logs off...

Red Deer:
Thank you all for an interesting discussion!

Nestor11:
ok EH --thanks for all you leadership

PAniteowl:
Hey Host!! Good session!! {g}

Nestor11:
it has been a great discussion