Chat Host:

OK, IF YOU WILL ALL SETTLE DOWN AND TAKE YOUR SEATS WE WILL BEGIN

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA 101!

Tonight's class is hosted by SongSpring. Her topic is the Ethics and Wisdom in Magick.

Please keep all greetings, farewells and side conversations in IM during class.

DISRUPTERS WILL BE WARNED ONCE AND THEN EXCLUDED.

In case of disaster {g} could one or two of you who plan on attending the entire class please log as back up?

SONGSPRING:

{-logging

Burningwolf:

{..... logging

PaleShaddow:

{logging also

melilott:

{----logging

Boudica:

dittos

Chat Host:

WITH THAT... THE FLOOR IS YOURS TO RULE SONGSPRING

SONGSPRING:

{G}

Chat Host:

{g}

LadyofAvalon:

, logging

SONGSPRING:

Takes a bow... thanks chatty

Blessed Be, all! Tonight's class is two fold. First, I wish to discuss the relationship between knowledge and wisdom. I feel that this is the foundation to growth, in understanding and being able to apply the difference.

The format for tonight's class will be a guided discussion of sorts. I will give some general background and focus then open the floor for discussion before continuing. Following the discussion of wisdom and knowledge, I would like to discuss the Wiccan Rede and various other ethical standards and codes. Some of my material I have used before on a thread exploring wisdom and knowledge on the Wiccan BBs a few months ago.

I would like to begin with a small invocation that I use frequently in the room.

By God and Goddess of Peace, Love, and Light,

I greet this room "Welcome" tonight!

By Air, Fire, Water, and Earth

may this room be forever filled with mirth!

With merriment and joviality,

peaceful this room ever shall be!

: )

badgey:

So Mote it Be!

SONGSPRING:

What is Knowledge? The American Heritage Dictionary describes it as such:

1. The state or fact of knowing.

2. Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study.

3. that which is known; the sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or inferred.

4. Learning; erudition: 'men of knowledge'.

5. Specific information about something.

Knowledge is exactly that! Nothing more than simple awareness gained from study or observation of some sort or another. No place in that definition, or any other I have ever encountered does it infer that such knowledge comes pre packaged with usage instructions. No, knowledge is abstract, unfeeling, and useless without application.

What is Wisdom? The American Heritage Dictionary describes it as such:

1. Understanding of what is true, right, or lasting.

2. Common sense; sagacity; good judgment - "it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things" (Thoreau).

3. Learning; erudition.

Interesting how wisdom is described. Wisdom is a word that has the feeling of action to it. Wisdom is a noun "applied. " Wisdom does not end at the books, it takes knowledge a step further. It implies that the person is able to process, judge, and apply that which has been observed, discovered, inferred, and perceived. Wisdom is the processing of knowledge, be it limited or extensive, and having the ability of "common sense" to discern truth from fiction, being able to make the judgment between what is right, wrong, beneficial, or harmful. Wisdom is that property which allows reason to work in its full potential, weighing the options, deciding what truth, what good is best served, or to discern the "lesser of two evils. "Wisdom is forever continuing to learn. In short, wisdom is knowledge applied.

What determines the break between wisdom and knowledge?

open question

GreenLady:

intuition

SONGSPRING:

GreenLady, please elaborate

other input?

PaleShaddow:

common sense

TreeBro':

comparing and contrasting different things one has learned

Terra Gahn:

Knowledge is finite, but wisdom has the potential to be infinite

Red Deer:

it sounds as though knowledge were black and white

PaleShaddow:

knowing a thing and using your judgment as to whether to use it or not

GreenLady:

wisdom is a feeling almost an emotion, knowledge is a tool

Red Deer:

and wisdom shades of gray...

Herne:

Well Song, ones conscience perhaps, or simply ones desire

Red Deer:

situational ethics

GreenLady:

yes Red Deer true

badgey:

Just because you know something doesn't make you wise... wisdom is taking that knowledge and putting it to use.

SONGSPRING:

Aye Red Deer...

ok...

melilott:

anyone can gain knowledge wisdom comes from knowing how to use that knowledge

TreeBro':

... and knowing where it might lead

SONGSPRING:

Well, IMNSHO (in my not so humble opinion) here is what I have determined for myself the differentiation of the two...

Tylwyth Teg:

Knowledge is a conclusion, singular. Wisdom is the multiple paths to that conclusion, poly in nature.

SONGSPRING:

A person can study, learn, know all the tricks, have all the experience (because it did mention that knowledge is gained through experience), have all the countless years of credentials and still be a blooming idiot! In the same token, I have come across many a person who has less "knowledge," fewer titles, fewer years,

PlasticG'zus:

wisdom is understanding. you do not have to understand to know or know to understand

SONGSPRING:

and is far more wise than the one who possess all the knowledge in the world.

Red Deer:

aye Song

SONGSPRING:

You see, wisdom is using the knowledge to grow, not physically, but in capacity, be that in a spiritual path, a career path, in relationships, or in any number of facets of our existence. How do you tell who is only knowledgeable and not wise? I'm glad you asked! {G} The knowledgeable one will use any opportunity to show how smart he or she is. The knowledgeable person will quote rank, title, years of service, experiences, degrees, dates of initiation, number of covens, number of traditions he or she is well versed in, and any number of credentials that they have had the opportunity to seize their hands upon. Now this person is very smart, and has no doubt has "earned" all that to which they claim, but that doesn't mean squat when it comes to applying any of that.

PaleShaddow:

the wise one will say nothing

SONGSPRING:

Now, these people make excellent teachers on "knowledge" issues, wonderful teachers in fact! They feel the need to impress people with their heard earned knowledge. If you want to know all that they know, you won't hear it from them, because if you did, they wouldn't be "special" any more. But if you so much as challenge them and their beliefs and their knowledge, woe unto you!

PlasticG'zus:

knowledge comes from the outside, wisdom from within

SONGSPRING:

They will quote stats, proof, and any number of citations (and don't forget that they will remind you of your rank vs. theirs) until your eyeballs pop out! They are right! You are wrong! Even when you are really right, you are still wrong! They can't concede that you might just have some knowledge that they don't! So, how can a knowledgeable person be wise?

PlasticG'zus:

settle

SONGSPRING:

By using common sense, for starters! A wise person knows when it is appropriate to quote credentials, and will often only quote those that apply. Often time, the wise person will tell you that it does not matter what the credentials are (They most often do that so as not to belittle you in any way). But if it is appropriate, they will tell you what you need to know.

A wise person knows when it is best to be silent, when the knowledge is appropriately passed on, and when the knowledge would only be rejected if offered. A wise person who has knowledge wants to teach, but will take it to a more personal level. That person is wanting to share with you everything you need to meet your full potential, even if that means that your "knowledge" will exceed their own. They want you to excel. They know that the best compliment to a teacher is when the student exceeds beyond the ability of the teacher!

The knowledgeable and wise person does so desire to share their knowledge and are also most often philosophers of a sort and also become the best teachers. They are less concerned with who notices them, and more concerned with the student. They are content to take the background at times, while coming to the forefront if needed or asked. That is the key, being asked.

The wise person will share only when there is a genuine interest, when you ask a question, when you seek! But even more so, the wise person is willing to learn, not only from books or "higher sources", but even from the student. The wise person knows that knowledge comes from the most uncanny places at times, and is always waiting for some emergence of new knowledge no matter how "humble" its origins.

I once heard a saying which I believe is true, "A wise person knows what he/she knows, and knows what he/she doesn't know. " To me, this means being able to say those three dreadful words when the occasion merits... "I don't know. "

Herne:

Sounds like you are talking about the differences in attitudes of our god and goddess and that of Yaweh Song

WolfofWynter:

The best teacher is one who has never stopped being a student...

SONGSPRING:

{G} Herne

A wise person knows that to learn more, you must forever ask questions, never assume that a person has nothing to offer, and that everyone has a level of potential which they have yet to reach (this includes themselves). Although I don't "believe" in the Christian Bible, I do believe that there is many a good description of the wise one vs the fool in the book of Proverbs.

Tylwyth Teg:

Using this definition, a wise person who doesn't wait to be asked is a curmudgeon. =]

SONGSPRING:

Remember, wisdom is found in the strangest places! So, in light of all this, who is wise? Well, that now is for you to decide.

PaleShaddow:

may i make a point here Song?

SONGSPRING:

Tyl, a wise person knows when the time is appropriate...

Please do Pale

PlasticG'zus:

only in a perfect world, song

PaleShaddow:

the Wise use different methods to express their understanding like poetry and song, the knowledgeable cannot do this effectively in my opinion

Red Deer:

A wise person understands that the greatest learning comes from their students

Tylwyth Teg:

Sometimes a wise person simply knows when the time is to be quiet, not when to start speaking. At least to my experience. But this is another topic.

SONGSPRING:

No, not a perfect world Zus... wisdom is hard to come by, and difficult to maintain... there are many who have knowledge... few whom are wise

I agree Pale and Red

GreenLady:

very true

SONGSPRING:

Aye Tyl

PaleShaddow:

i feel that is a good factor to determine whether someone is only full of trivia or someone who is wise

Herne:

Awareness and empathy = common sense

melilott:

another thing song, a wise person will not use a public forum if that is not the place for some topics

PlasticG'zus:

we are all the wise one AND the fool.

SONGSPRING:

Ah, but can we listen and understand that awareness and empathy Herne? That is wisdom

Arienrhod:

A wise person can decide when the time to use their knowledge is right.

SONGSPRING:

a WISE statement Zus {G}

Now, in light of all this, let us discuss the various ethical standards within Wicca and the Craft, as well as other Pagan beliefs... Wiccans believe in the common ethical thread known as the Wiccan Rede. It is stated, "An it harm NONE, do as ye will." This precludes us from doing any action, magickal or otherwise, causing harm either to ourselves or to other beings. The second ethical principal is like unto the "Golden Rule," mainly stating that all you do shall be revisited upon you. Some believe that this "revisitation" is brought upon you three fold, while others believe it to be equal in strength to the original deed or even far more magnified. Now, there are the "unspoken additions" to the Rede...

Herne:

If we are aware we know when and how to apply our knowledge, if we add empathy we can fine tune it, especially in human communications so that we can adjust to each person

SONGSPRING:

Save that it be to preserve the self or the Craft, or that you are willing to accept the three fold consequences...

Herne:

and even on an individual basis

SONGSPRING:

Now, the question I would like to raise is on the issue of harm... Let us understand that the harm NONE includes the self... as well as others... but what about unintentional harm? How does that revisit upon its origins?

discussion?

GreenLady:

um tough question

Arienrhod:

good question.

QueenTwiggy:

{----stumped

IAmTwiggy:

Uhh...

SONGSPRING:

Yes, that is why we as a community discuss such things...

PlasticG'zus:

karma works on a cause and effect principle, not "good/bad"

Tylwyth Teg:

Shadows of the Laws of Robotics...

TreeBro':

that's where wisdom comes in... one must weigh the consequences of one's actions before doing things

SONGSPRING:

to gain a better understanding of self and of others

melilott:

if you were to do something that caused harm without that being your intent i do not think you would receive harm back three fold... the harm would cause you pain because you did not

GreenLady:

I believe it depends on the nature of the harm and the original intent

melilott:

intend it

PlasticG'zus:

what you do comes back on you in kind

Herne:

You mean like if you accidentally poke someone in the eye with your fork when your diving for the last piece of chicken on the platter Song?

PaleShaddow:

unintentional harm i feel does not embrace the 3 fold law completely the gods of karma understand even if we do not that the harm was not meant to be as such

Chat Host:

I don't think it matters if it is intentional or unintentional... karma is karma

SONGSPRING:

LOL Herne... or trying to help a person with magik perhaps and causing them harm by accident...

Arienrhod:

Don't the consequences of the harm center around the intent of the source?

SONGSPRING:

That is the question Arienrhod...

Tylwyth Teg:

I would agree with CHAT host... some times bad luck is bad luck. Not everything in our existence has a judge.

Herne:

Well, if you sell a person a hammer and they bust their kneecap with it are you responsible?

GreenLady:

I agree but karma is a very strong factor

SONGSPRING:

Are we not the judge of our own actions by the 3 fold law?

Chat Host:

I'd have to say no Herne

PlasticG'zus:

be real, Herne

Tylwyth Teg:

Only if you knew the hammer was defective.

GreenLady:

yes song we are

Arienrhod:

The it would depend on who was judging the intent.

PaleShaddow:

i do not agree, even bad luck has good points think about how much more bad it would have been if the harm was intended

SONGSPRING:

Only if your hand was on the handle, Herne

Chat Host:

agreed Teg

Boudica:

We all should be considering the consequences of our actions before we act, thereby avoiding possible "accidental" harm... it is our jobs and duty

Herne:

I am, consider science and nuclear physics

Red Deer:

that's quite different from casting upon the hammer and causing them to bust a knee cap, whether intentional or not

SONGSPRING:

Ok, lets look at this within the frame of magick...

GreenLady:

ok

Tylwyth Teg:

We judge what we do, but we cannot judge what we can't control.

melilott:

but we must look to the whole of our actions before we perform them we do harm by not looking into the consequences far enough

Red Deer:

aye mel... as the environment attests

Boudica:

and we should not attempt things that are beyond our control

PaleShaddow:

aye

Tylwyth Teg:

Everything has a strand of chaos... we can never completely predict results.

Herne:

same principle

GreenLady:

it is impossible sometimes to see the outcome the universe twists things sometimes

SONGSPRING:

agreed...

Red Deer:

and the threefold is returning to our species there, even though we did NOT mean the harm (in the beginning at least)

Arienrhod:

there is a factor of chance in everything we do, no matter how small.

GreenLady:

true

SONGSPRING:

Well, that brings up an interesting concept... the Three Fold law...

First, what is the concept of the Three Fold Law???

That all actions are revisited magnified three times... both "positive" and "negative:"

melilott:

what you do you receive back three times the strength

SONGSPRING:

But how do we gain such a conclusion?

Tylwyth Teg:

experience?

PaleShaddow:

our actions return to us thrice meaning that whatever we do will return to us 3 times as good or bad depending on the action

SONGSPRING:

An interesting question was brought up to me once... based upon the laws of physics...

GreenLady:

law of the universe?

Herne:

a speculation

LadyofAvalon:

What about in the book The Mists of Avalon. Morgaine did kill Accolons brother. but she thought that it would be good for the kingdom if he wasn't king. Would she still get hit by the threefold law in that case?

SONGSPRING:

why 3 fold? would not the reaction be equal to the action?

Brian Warner:

this is NOT to offend anyone here... but are they're any Satanists present?

Herne:

not me

LadyofAvalon:

not me

Tylwyth Teg:

In other words, is the 3-fold law based on intentions or conclusions?

PaleShaddow:

nay

Tylwyth Teg:

nay

Arienrhod:

no not me

SONGSPRING:

Wiccans, contrary to popular misconceptions, are not Satanists or "Devil Worshipers." Satan is part of the Christian mythos. Wiccans do not believe in the existence of Satan. Therefore, how can we worship an entity that we do not acknowledge as existent? The God of the old religion often becomes the "devil" of the new. This is what has happened with our God when Christianity became popularized.

WolfofWynter:

Satan? Who's Satan?

SONGSPRING:

Now, back to the topic at hand...

Herne:

Goddess, she knows where they all are

Dodona Oak:

... back to the subject

PaleShaddow:

Song is something else isn't she Herne {G}

GreenLady:

yes

Herne:

quick draw Song

Chat Host:

Let's get back to the discussion please.

GreenLady:

truly

Herne:

I created a monster

melilott:

macro momma with a six shooter

SONGSPRING:

I would like to know... for those who do not follow the Wiccan Rede, what manner of ethical standards or "codes" do you live by?

WolfofWynter:

{G}

Dodona Oak:

Custom is sometime the arbiter of standards

GreenLady:

true

SONGSPRING:

And what additions or allowances do you make when the Rede is concerned?

Dodona, continue please

PaleShaddow:

Song i live by Crowley's Law , Love is the Law Love under will with the Wiccan Rede thrown in

GreenLady:

different cultures have different ethics

SONGSPRING:

But is love truly a law or a freedom?

melilott:

i don't believe the "and harm none" applies to self preservation

Dodona Oak:

custom can be the arbiter of standard when no religious code exist as with the Greeks

PaleShaddow:

can be both depends on how you look at it

Dodona Oak:

custom

Tylwyth Teg:

I expect there are situations in one's life where one must simply live with consequences, and plan their actions based on them.

SONGSPRING:

melilott, yes... that is the unspoken addition...

Arienrhod:

different upbringings bring different moral "codes"

SONGSPRING:

so, where do you draw the line in self preservation?

Red Deer:

I was taught the triune law... Strive to be charitable. Work to be honest. Seek not to harm others.

melilott:

my life

TreeBro':

i also believe in the Threefold Law, the 3X, i feel, applies to one's actions being revisited physically, emotionally, and spiritually upon oneself

Herne:

I regard the Rede as what it is "Wise Council" not an absolute, and I do not consider it to mean the same thing as "turn the other cheek"

SONGSPRING:

Pale, it is an ethical standard as well... it is welcome in this discussion...

Therefore, would action and inaction also be judged equally under the Rede?

PaleShaddow:

yes

GreenLady:

it is a fine line and it is hard for humans to turn the other cheek, but I try my best to follow the Rede in it's completion

Red Deer:

{--- believes the answer is yes

Arienrhod:

I agree with pale

GreenLady:

yes I believe it does

PaleShaddow:

allowing a wrong to go unchecked is wrong on our part if we can stop something bad we should

Tylwyth Teg:

If inaction causes harm, yes.

SONGSPRING:

My friend says that she does not turn the other cheek, she puts on armor {G}

GreenLady:

yes Pale

SONGSPRING:

so then, how does inaction apply to the three fold law?

PaleShaddow:

Song if i let my mate be harmed then i am at fault if i can stop it agreed?

Herne:

Now who believes that the Threefold is justa knee jerk reaction of the cosmos or whether the gods keep tabs and dole out rewards and punishments?

GreenLady:

sometimes it is hard to be a warrior soul in a wiccan body {G}

melilott:

not recycling would be a inaction

SONGSPRING:

agreed Pale...

PaleShaddow:

:}

TreeBro':

it depends on how closely one is involved in the situation he's failing to respond to

Tylwyth Teg:

X causes Y. X can be action or inaction.

Herne:

Song, your getting perilously close to a Hindu conception of Karma

SONGSPRING:

{G} Herne...

Red Deer:

I thought that threefold was a principle of action... not that the Lady and Lord judge us and reward or give retribution.

Tylwyth Teg:

Not recycling in an area that doesn't have it isn't inaction.

melilott:

boomerang effect i think red

Arienrhod:

I believe it depends on the nature of inaction... sometimes it can't be helped

GreenLady:

agreed

SONGSPRING:

Herne, perhaps so and perhaps not... that concept rides throughout time... that every action causes an equal and opposite reaction...

Tylwyth Teg:

I see a large grey area forming...

TreeBro':

but failing to try and START a recycling program in your area might be, Tyl... ?

Herne:

If the Three fold is a principle of action, good and evil actions could conceivably cancel out one another

SONGSPRING:

so would it then be three fold... or a equal reaction?

Lionflower:

If you harm someone, you are not only affecting them, but everyone they care about... that's why it comes back on you threefold

Red Deer:

aye a principle of action mel

PaleShaddow:

good point Lion

SONGSPRING:

Ah, but there you go Herne... what is good and what is evil?

PaleShaddow:

agreed!

SONGSPRING:

Wiccan Witchcraft is not "white" or "black" Witchcraft, it simply "is." Magick is neither "white" nor "black." Magick is no more than the manipulation or use of energies, or the focus of will an intent in either a constructive or destructive manner. Energy itself is neither harmful or good, only the intent behind the focus can serve to bring harm or bring good. The Wiccan Rede precludes Wiccans from using such magick for harm.

melilott:

shopping is evil

Tylwyth Teg:

Is there good and evil at all? Or just the consequences of our actions?

Herne:

What if the have more than just two relations that are affected?

GreenLady:

we are all like ripples in a lake every action we do affects everyone else on a cosmic and spiritual level

SONGSPRING:

only when I don't have money, melilott {G}

melilott:

lol

TreeBro':

intent can be good or evil

SONGSPRING:

good analogy Green Lady

Arienrhod:

I believe "good and evil" center around the intent of the doer

Tylwyth Teg:

But must all our actions be intentionally global, or can they be more focused?

Herne:

shopping is only evil if your not taking advantage of the sales

SONGSPRING:

but what is good and what is evil? Is it not a changing concept based upon society?

TreeBro':

i think it's more personal than that, Song

SONGSPRING:

back to the subject, dear Herne

GreenLady:

they are focused of course but the outcome is felt by all

PaleShaddow:

good and evil is a human concept not cosmic

SONGSPRING:

Ok, continue Tree

melilott:

i think its something your "feel" i know when i'm being bad i can tell

Arienrhod:

Good and evil depend on the doer's perception.

Red Deer:

{--- believes that evil may be defined simply as the self centered action of any sapient entity which brings purposeful harm to another...

Herne:

Right Pale

Red Deer:

very different from 'bad' and 'harm'

SONGSPRING:

SeannochMhor (standing behind me) says that it is not so much good or evil as it is harm or benefit

Tylwyth Teg:

Good and Evil are such limiting concepts... positive and negative seem a little less transient with the times.

TreeBro':

i don't think anyone can decide what another's actions are, as far as "good" or "evil"; we can only know for ourselves

GreenLady:

absolutely Red

Red Deer:

on the doer's or the doee's, Arienrhod?

SONGSPRING:

doee's??? {G}

Arienrhod:

the person who causes the actions in question.

[editor's note: doer = undertaker of an action, doee = recipient of an action]

Herne:

right, we all live in separate universes, though on some areas our realities overlap

PaleShaddow:

constructive and destructive are all the cosmos knows even destructive magick is helpful such as banishing an illness

melilott:

evil to me would be the taking of a life for the pleasure of it

TreeBro':

we individually know our consciences, and i think that if we act with intent that is contrary to what we "believe" is right, then we're acting in an evil way

GreenLady:

I think it comes down to your concept of evil there are a few across the board biggies though

Jussme:

is there an absolute?

Tylwyth Teg:

But if you killed someone who was attempting to kill you, and took pleasure as a side effect, would it be evil?

Red Deer:

but what if the doee perceives the result as evil or harmful?

Wildswan:

Or when Lyle Menendez reloaded

melilott:

no that would not be evil tyl

TreeBro':

i think there are absolutes...

SONGSPRING:

then where are the absolutes if there is anything absolute

GreenLady:

Teg I don't know

Boudica:

Can it be boiled down to chaos and order?

Tylwyth Teg:

Neither do I.

melilott:

it would be sick but not evil

Nestor:

could we use the concepts of 'productive' / 'counter-productive' instead of the terms good / evil --would that help to understand the implications of the actions in a more accurate way

Tylwyth Teg:

Chaos is not necessarily bad, no more than Law is good.

PaleShaddow:

like i said good and evil is a human concept a tool for us to judge what is right and wrong for us to do or not to do

Jussme:

exactly right tree

Red Deer:

aye tyl

TreeBro':

every culture in history has had laws against murder, stealing, etc...

Tylwyth Teg:

Order, not Law, sorri.

Herne:

The Absolute cannot be perceived from a relative viewpoint Song Spring

Arienrhod:

see that's where the perception comes in. Acts are judged by different standards, held by different people.

SONGSPRING:

SeannochMhor says that order is a man made thing... chaos is more the lack of man's influence...

TreeBro':

these laws are a reflection of the collective conscience of mankind

Boudica:

chaos / order or good / evil... they are just two sides of the same coin

Red Deer:

Man seeks order within chaos

GreenLady:

I don't know about that Song there is order in nature

Tylwyth Teg:

I would say that Chaos is change, Order is stability. Both are needed.

PaleShaddow:

aye Red

GreenLady:

and chaos

SONGSPRING:

So, then is there a time that the Rede does not apply?

Jussme:

boud - does god equal order, Satan (pardon the Christian word) equal chaos?

fireheart:

I agree Tyl

GreenLady:

no

melilott:

i prefer chaos within order myself

TreeBro':

i don't think so, Song

Lionflower:

When you are willing to reap the repercussions of your actions, no matter what they are.

Red Deer:

the Rede always applies to sapient beings who are not the Lady and Lord

Herne:

Actually Chaos is source, order are patterns

Tylwyth Teg:

I prefer order within chaos myself

Jussme:

tyl - chaos is not change - change is changing one order for the next

SONGSPRING:

but is that the lack of application of the Rede, or the breaking and bending thereof, Lion?

Tylwyth Teg:

Then what is chaos, if not a state of instability?

GreenLady:

the breaking I feel

SONGSPRING:

So, then Red... the Rede does not apply to the Divine?

PaleShaddow:

all things come from chaos the first swirlings of the cosmos and are formed into order

Lionflower:

What is your definition of the Rede? It's so different for so many.

Red Deer:

does any law apply to the divine?

melilott:

yes divine law

Tylwyth Teg:

And all things return to chaos at times, again to return to order.

Red Deer:

I honestly don't know the answer... but am unwilling to say that is does

GreenLady:

only as you perceive them Red

Boudica:

individual morality

SONGSPRING:

Does not law apply to nature Red Deer?

SONGSPRING:

Is not the Divine inherent in all Nature?

Lionflower:

Harm none. That's the best one to live by. Short and sweet. If you choose to violate it, which we do, we must be willing to take what we get... and swallow.

Herne:

Song, are you going to tell Cerridwen that she did wrong when she threw those men off a cliff? :}

Red Deer:

works for me Lion

GreenLady:

agreed Lion!

SONGSPRING:

So then, if we believe that to be so, would not the Rede apply to the Divine?

WolfofWynter:

Me too, Lion...

Arienrhod:

{---agrees with Lion

fireheart:

I agree lion

SONGSPRING:

Aye, so how does this guide us in our magickal workings?

melilott:

the divine punish their own it is not our place to judge them

GreenLady:

Song I like to think so but they've never assured me {G}

Wildswan:

... with the Lion

Red Deer:

if it does, then all harm must stem from a source other than the Lady and Lord... and we're back to the Christian concept of a devil

Tylwyth Teg:

Why not? Why can't we judge?

Red Deer:

OR the Lady and Lord suffer consequences as well

SONGSPRING:

no, I agree melilott... but even the Divine have to "swallow" when time comes.....

melilott:

we can't even judge ourselves, how can we judge them?

Lionflower:

I think the Rede helps keep us honest with ourselves.

Herne:

Are you going to tell Zeus that he shouldn't cheat on Hera? Or Ares that he is a bloodthirsty bastard or Morrigan that she has PMS?

GreenLady:

I believe that the Lord and the Lady have negative as well as positive aspects

TreeBro':

aye, Red Deer, i feel that is true... if it is a universal law

Boudica:

we can only judge our own actions, not those of others

Tylwyth Teg:

We should all have the option to attempt to interpret what happens around us.

LadyofAvalon:

LOL Herne

SONGSPRING:

Aye, a balance in all things...

Red Deer:

{--- strongly agrees with Green Lady

Chat Host:

A law of nature is a law of nature, it seems that the Lord and Lady are a part of nature and would be under the lay... or are a part of the law

SONGSPRING:

SeannochMhor agrees w/ Boudica

Dodona Oak:

Herne you are assuming that cheating is wrong

SONGSPRING:

as do I

TreeBro':

why not Herne? i told Jehovah he was a hypocrite!

Nestor:

learning to 'judge' or apply the discrimination of ethics is one of the things which is a responsibility of spiritual growth

SONGSPRING:

so long that it harms none

melilott:

our own actions yes boud but others must hold their own court it is not our place to

Lionflower:

Herne, don't start taking the mythology too seriously, otherwise you'll end up as literal as some of the Xians who take every word for what it is, instead of the lesson or meaning.

PaleShaddow:

if the divine upset the balance of the universe they are subject to reprisal. balance must be kept or else all would fall apart

Arienrhod:

We can't judge the divine because we lack the ability to define a clear concept of "good" and "evil"

SONGSPRING:

Aye, I agree Lion

LadyofAvalon:

The God and Goddess cannot be totally good all the time. If they were then were did "bad" originate?

GreenLady:

true

melilott:

what might be bad to me might be good to someone else

Tylwyth Teg:

Why would one need such a concept? Why can one not live simply by the results of their actions. Injury follow like, as does healing.

GreenLady:

it is all a personal choice

Red Deer:

{--- disagrees that the Lady and Lord are part of Nature... Nature is, instead, a PART of Them

PaleShaddow:

if Ares was to wipe out a small town the other gods would most surely intervene so this would be an act of karma manifesting in the form of another god delivering the judgment

SONGSPRING:

So then, there is not a time when the Rede does not apply, but there are times when we willingly or unwittingly break it?

Yes?

Lionflower:

How about being true to one's own ideals of what is right and what is wrong?

GreenLady:

right Red

Chat Host:

but are they not one and the same then?

TreeBro':

or a reflection of them

Nestor:

agreed Red deer

TreeBro':

good point Pale

Lionflower:

Yes, SS

Herne:

To look the omnipotent tyrant in his everlasting face and tell him that his evil is not good is an act of courage Tree Brother

Palin:

Everyone has to have a reason for the actions that others consider evil, because we can't always agree with everyone's decisions

melilott:

but if we are part of them then they are part of us also and therefore have the same type of personalities and emotions

SONGSPRING:

Now, then a problem we must avoid is getting locked up in inaction when considering the Rede and its many implications...

TreeBro':

thank you Herne... i think :)

SONGSPRING:

That is where inaction comes into play

Boudica:

So, we must take the individual responsibility to stick with the Rede and allow the god and goddess to deal with the rest

Red Deer:

Chatty... no... the system is GREATER than the sum of its parts

Herne:

Song Spring, The Rede always applies in Wicca, though my HPS will allow for capital punishment

GreenLady:

how can anyone ever know that they are in the right? by feeling listening to your instincts

Chat Host:

will be thinking about that ... thanks

Lionflower:

We're all right. We're all dead wrong. It really doesn't matter.

Herne:

{we're all confused}

GreenLady:

I don't agree

Tylwyth Teg:

One never truly -knows- anything for sure. Its all a game of calculated risk.

melilott:

then we're all normal lion

TreeBro':

LOL

Lionflower:

yup

Red Deer:

{--- is most definitely NOT normal

Herne:

Oh, well YOU wouldn't Green Lady :}

SONGSPRING:

Well, so we are back to the original theory... that we must each take individual responsibility to decide what we are able to deal with... as Seannoch tells me all the time... there are choices.

Palin:

Not by a long shot

PaleShaddow:

{ no where NEAR normal thank you

GreenLady:

{G}

Herne:

But you aspire to be Red Deer :}

Lionflower:

true enough, SS

Red Deer:

wrong herns

melilott:

normal by MY standards {EG}

TreeBro':

the only way to "know" is to really listen to your inner voice, to weed out all of society's conflicting messages and to follow your own conscience

PaleShaddow:

i don't Herne

Lionflower:

See, none of us are normal, so therefore, we are creating our own norm.

GreenLady:

agreed Tree

SONGSPRING:

The only point that we may gleam is that we must take knowledge and make it wisdom... and use true wisdom in the application of our Craft and our lives in how they relate to the Wiccan Rede

Lionflower:

The norm in Pagan society is to be extremely abnormal

SONGSPRING:

as to all things

GreenLady:

amen Song! :}

PaleShaddow:

oh great so your saying I am a NORMAL pagan {G}

Tylwyth Teg:

Perhaps wisdom is knowledge of how things change, rather than knowledge of what they are. Or simply the realization that everything does.

Lionflower:

LOL

LadyofAvalon:

{---agrees with Lionflower

SONGSPRING:

So, why this discussion? To get us thinking... to let us know that there is always more to consider... to pause... to understand not just to know...

GreenLady:

absolutely Teg

Boudica:

Points well presented and well taken, thank you Song...

SONGSPRING:

With that in mind... we could discuss this forever...

GreenLady:

food for thought definitely

Lionflower:

Song, it's nice to get different points of view. Thanks!

Red Deer:

or perhaps wisdom is the knowledge of how to gracefully accommodate to change

SONGSPRING:

The beauty of Wicca and other Pagan paths is the acceptance of others...

Tylwyth Teg:

Of course! If there were an end to this conversation, there would be a finite amount of things to know.

GreenLady:

yes Song true

TreeBro':

excellent class, Song! thank you thank you thank you!

Lionflower:

aaaahhhhh, Red Deer

SONGSPRING:

So, with that in mind... I'm finished!

Herne:

Song, have you ever heard the version of the Rede that ends with "But do whatever you must for the Craft must always survive"?

badgey:

Thank you Song... well done.

PaleShaddow:

that's the idea Song, we must look into this forever for its not humankind's job to fully understand if we did we would be divine

Chat Host:

I have Herne

SONGSPRING:

Aye Herne... the unspoken additions that we discussed about a half hour ago

Lionflower:

Great, SS. Sorry I missed most of the lecture, though.

GreenLady:

I have too

Red Deer:

Thank you Song... excellent!

Wildswan:

Well you did one heck of a good job, one of the best yet!

Chat Host:

Very good class Song! see? I told you so! Thank you!

WolfofWynter:

Thank you Song! !

Nestor:

Herne -- you apply it with reason and caution

GreenLady:

thanks! :}

PaleShaddow:

well done Song, as always very informative

Lionflower:

Herne, the Craft will always survive, if the Goddess wills it so.

fireheart:

Thank you Song

Lionflower:

It's not up to us to preserve it, just nurture it.

GreenLady:

agreed Lion

LadyofAvalon:

great class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dodona Oak:

that was nice Song very nice

GreenLady:

yes!

flowerface:

Thank you SongSpring

melilott:

GREAT class song

SONGSPRING:

{blushing}

PaleShaddow:

:::announcer voice::: 3 CHEERS FOR SONG!!!

Red Deer:

agreed Lion, Lady and Lord will see to that... just as they have

GreenLady:

bye badgey!

Herne:

Its implications are that if you feel that that the Craft is endangered you can do anything, lie , cheat, steal even murder

Tylwyth Teg:

Huzzah!

Mayet:

Is class ending already? :(

melilott:

hip hip diet

Lionflower:

huzzah!

WolfofWynter:

Hip-Hip-Hooraayy! ! !

SONGSPRING:

well, it is 9 {G}

GreenLady:

huzzah!

Tylwyth Teg:

Well class is now discussion, so it never has to really end.

Poizon Ivy:

how often do you have class

Lionflower:

But, Herne, the Goddess will insure it's existence if She wants it to be.

Boudica:

I really must say that the classes have been very good as of late. And this is just another great class, thank you Song

SONGSPRING:

exactly... so we can now discuss more if you would like

Tylwyth Teg:

:nod::

GreenLady:

Herne the goddess wouldn't want the craft to survive under those conditions

PaleShaddow:

{--- ready to continue

SONGSPRING:

Wicca 101 is held at 9 EST every Sunday

Mayet:

good class song, I'm going to be thinking all night now {darn}{G}

SONGSPRING:

9 PM that is

Lionflower:

Yes, and there will be a test later. g}

Poizon Ivy:

thanx

GreenLady:

uh oh!

Tylwyth Teg:

Oh no, where are my notes!

Chat Host:

Yes, and anyone who would like to teach please contact Morrigan!

Nestor:

Herne -- remember that anything done in that part of the Rede does not in anyway absolve you from the natural repercussions of your actions and is part of your spiritual development

GreenLady:

checking notes :}

PaleShaddow:

YIPE not a quiz

Red Deer:

life is the test, Lion

TreeBro':

agreed Green... the craft would become something much different than what it is

PaleShaddow:

ummm my dog ate my homework teach {G}

Herne:

Correct Lionflower, that is why the Roserians who follow it are considered to be weirdoes within the Wiccan community

GreenLady:

lol

Lionflower:

LOL

PaleShaddow:

brb

Boudica:

Nestor, untie your fingers

Tylwyth Teg:

But then again even the craft shifts with time. Change is not negative, so long as the purpose remains stable.

Lionflower:

Nobody is a weirdo.

GreenLady:

lol Boudica

Herne:

Charles Manson?

melilott:

that must mean i'm a somebody lion {EG}

SONGSPRING:

lol

Herne:

Richard Ramirez?

SONGSPRING:

not a weirdo... just SICK

GreenLady:

yes my disciple? just kidding

WolfofWynter:

{----- weirdo {G}

Herne:

Adolph Hitler?

GreenLady:

madman

Lionflower:

LOL, meli

Herne:

Beevis and Butthead?

WolfofWynter:

Retarded

Boudica:

All tests Herne

GreenLady:

gross and funny as hell

LadyGrnEyes:

heh heh heh

Chat Host:

Well all, company just knocked on the door so I must leave. Good class! Thank you once again Song! Merry Part!

Nestor:

since when were any of these people part of the Craft, Herne -- or are they representative of your tradition?

PaleShaddow:

blessings Chatty

GreenLady:

though not as funny as Pinky and the Brain

SONGSPRING:

Nestor... NOT TONIGHT

Red Deer:

or Ren and Stimpy

GreenLady:

agreed :}

Boudica:

Rocco

GreenLady:

real monsters

Red Deer:

well, have we hit on whether inaction is appropriate, Song?

TreeBro':

great class; thanks again!

Lionflower:

thanks, Red Deer. I think I shall tonight.....

Boudica:

It is just as bad to do nothing as it is to do something wrong

melilott:

so basically we are the judges of our own actions if we choose to pay the price for what we do then we answer to no one but ourselves

SONGSPRING:

Red Deer, ok...

Boudica:

very good mel... you get a star in my book

Red Deer:

that is a basic tenet of Wicca, mel

Warmuth:

and the Karmic wheel

SONGSPRING:

Red Deer... depends on the situation... sometimes inaction is necessary

Boudica:

and a few lol's for comments made during class...

melilott:

gee momma was teaching me Wicca and didn't know it {eg}

Red Deer:

aye Song... and class is probably one of them

GreenLady:

I think we have to answer to more than just ourselves for negative actions

Dodona Oak:

Nestor we need a class on some old time paganism

GreenLady:

really!

Warmuth:

Give me that ole time religion

PaleShaddow:

Song thanks for a great class!

melilott:

give me that ole time paganism like momma use to preach

GreenLady:

lol Warmuth

Dodona Oak:

LOL

Red Deer:

mel... Pagans don't preach {g}

Warmuth:

give me an Ole time Beltane

GreenLady:

amen!

Dodona Oak:

{G}

SONGSPRING:

Wicca is a non-proselytizing religion that is respectful of all paths. Wiccans believe in the sovereignty and responsibility of each being to choose whatever spiritual path best leads to a fulfilling connection with the Divine. Wicca does indeed believe that each being is responsible for his or her own actions and will not infringe upon the will of others.

melilott:

LOL red