Red Deer:

I'll Ward the Door. Usual rules - exclude without comment for disruptions!

TYLWYTH TEG:

Very well then. :ahem: Intro to Magickal Theory, was a large way of saying I'm going to keep this general. Not focusing on any one traditions practices, if at all possible. The only thing I can say with any real assurance about magick is that its a means to an end. A way of getting from point A to point B. As such, I see science as another form of magick. Science has two benefits that make it so accepted. One, it relies completely on observed phenomena. I don't hear of many leaps of faith in science. Two, its easy to believe. Not that difficult to accept that one and one make two. Unfortunately, that system can get terribly complicated if pursued too far. Which in a roundabout way brings me to my next point. Magick is composed basically of two things. Belief and something to power one's intention. Belief is probably the more difficult of the two. Anyone can say they can fly, but after falling the first ten feet that belief begins to wear very thin. Its the same way with magick. In theory it should be possible to do what we do in a ritual with a single thought. Our minds simply have a great difficulty with that. Ritual helps us to focus our belief, puts us into a state of mind where we can accept that what we are attempting to accomplish will succeed. Then there's the second part. Filling this belief with enough energy (for lack of a better term) to realize it. It's things such as a Wiccan's practice of drawing down the moon, a Kaballan's concentration on a single point of light and the energy flowing through them, whatever practice is used, that bring forth this energy. Some of the less religious practices of magick would say that they just collect the energy from all around them. The process is not so much as important as the end result. Which is a channeling of that energy through oneself, changing it into the will to make what one is doing succeed. Well I've said enough in one block. Any questions or comments?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Oddly silent room. Certainly I can't have been that clear. Any questions?

Ocean's Edge:

Not a one. . .

L NightShade:

I might except that I missed most of what you said. :)

Red Deer:

very clear and precise from my view.

TYLWYTH TEG:

Really? Comments?

Pixelite:

TT, So, after using a ritual for some time, and seeing results, can you reduce ritual to something simpler? Because you know it works?

Alacer:

Ultimately, you can just shut your eyes and achieve results

Red Deer:

As I practice from a religious view, I DO believe that the process matters.

TYLWYTH TEG:

Interesting idea. Yes, I believe you could. Every time you performed the ritual I think it would make the process easier. But I think the more one would use a particular ritual, the more one would come to rely on that ritual as the one way they can see the act they're performing as succeeding. So while it would become easier within the constraints of that ritual, it might become more difficult outside of it.

Pixelite:

I see that the process matters Red Deer, was just wondering if as you became attuned if you would change how you did ritual, say by making it simpler/quicker

Red Deer:

For me, the more a ritual is used, the better one channels the energy with it.

TYLWYTH TEG:

Well the whole idea of magick, as I see it, is to find the best way to accomplish something. If an emphasis on the process is best for you, than its best for you. I think that the symbols that one uses in a ritual, such as the athame, become more useful the more they're used. If only for the reason that one becomes more accustomed to believing that what they're doing will be successful if they use the item.

L NightShade:

TT. . . with what you said about it easier in one respect and more difficult in another. . . do you mean along the lines of that it may become too routine and cause one to make mistakes??

TYLWYTH TEG:

No, not exactly. I meant that when something becomes a routine, it tends to become relied upon. If I was used to my particular circle, and I didn't have access to it when I needed to do a particular working, I might be less likely to succeed. I would become reliant on the pattern I'd established.

L NightShade:

Ah, yes, I see what you mean. I forgot about that point.

TYLWYTH TEG:

Not to say that pattern is a bad thing. Just becoming to a slave to it.

Pixelite:

So, while it is good to be used to a particular set of circumstances/ritual you should continue to realize that if you improvise for the situation it will still work?

Alacer:

yes

Red Deer:

Yes, it is important to be able to work anytime, anywhere with any tools. . .

TYLWYTH TEG:

Something like that. Just keeping in the back of your mind that the way you're doing something is just one of many ways that could be equally valid.

Ocean's Edge:

Perhaps the important thing is keeping the state of mind constant not the actual ritual?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Exactly. The objective is to focus your will towards a particular goal. That is the essence of whatever method you're using.

Alacer:

TT - Your nickname is the name of the Faerie race of the Celtic trad, right?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Yes.

Ocean's Edge:

I seem to find almost all rituals a means to a trance, for working magick, however it is not the only one?

L NightShade:

You were talking about state of mind being the important part.

TYLWYTH TEG:

A trance? I don't think I've ever really been in a trance. Though from what I've learned its an effective means.

Ocean's Edge:

Is necessary for me, and I tend to find that state rather easily

TYLWYTH TEG:

Oh, thank you. Yes. The state of mind boils down to being able to allow oneself to believe what they are doing. Has that been everyone's experience? Do you feel it easier to be able to perform magick when in a ritual?

Red Deer:

More efficient, yes

Alacer:

Not really

TYLWYTH TEG:

Efficient, interesting term. Please explain.

Alacer:

At first it was, but now

Ocean's Edge:

Yes, but other ways have worked well for me too

TYLWYTH TEG:

Such as? I myself do not do much with rituals, but the few I've done I've found interesting as to the mind set they put me in. I think they distract me enough to just focus on what I'm doing.

Red Deer:

I find magick easy. . . but ritual allows the building of more energy with less work for me.

Ocean's Edge:

I have also found the dream state very effective, but less easy to control.

TYLWYTH TEG:

All right. Then, if I may ask, what are the different ways that each of you gather energy? A little harder to achieve the dream state, I've found. That may just be me though.

Alacer:

Rubbing hands together, and from "ethereal currents" as I call them. Or, From the Gods.

Morgana:

gather or generate, SR?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Like you can feel it in the air around you?

Alacer:

kind of

TYLWYTH TEG:

Either.

TYLWYTH TEG:

Interesting.

Red Deer:

From the Earth, from the 5 elements

Ocean's Edge:

I gather it from the elements, whatever is handiest at the time

Morgana:

gathering would involved tapping into the Earth's energy system. . .

Ocean's Edge:

like osmosis, kinda like a sponge

Alacer:

I was reading a book on Eastern Meditation philosophy, and it said energy flows in currents around and about us

Ocean's Edge:

although from the air is sometimes difficult for me

Morgana:

generating energy (to me the most preferable)would involve actions such as dance, singing, etc. . . very effective

TYLWYTH TEG:

Do you see it as such? When you're gathering? As actually tapping into the energy of the earth?

Morgana:

yes. . .

Alacer:

Not really. . . Channeling it, allowing it to FLOW through you

Red Deer:

yes

Alacer:

Like The Force, in Star Wars

Morgana:

but as I said, I find generating the preferred method. . . there are *enough* drains on the Earth Mother's energy structure already

Red Deer:

But we are also part of that energy structure. . . . .

Morgana:

preferable to generate what is needed, and release the excess back to the Earth Mother

TYLWYTH TEG:

Hmm. . . interesting perspective. Still, I wonder where the generated energy is coming from. Does it drain you?

Red Deer:

Generating our own we still draw from somewhere.

Alacer:

Sometimes

Morgana:

occasionally

L NightShade:

Morgana, would the method you use also depend on the circumstances. . . . ie, if away from home and the need to cast arises, would you gather rather than generate if in public?

Morgana:

actually, the process of generating energy is a transformative one. . . we are transforming the food we eat, etc. into energy

Alacer:

Can you really generate energy? It can't be made or destroyed, only change forms

TYLWYTH TEG:

Then how do you recover? I always saw the use and generating of energy as much the same thing. When whatever you were attempting to accomplish finishes, that the energy would return to the system.

Red Deer:

Aye

Alacer:

yes

Morgana:

in public, I would (for the most part) use my own inherent sources. . . . I have also studied generating energy on an internal basis. . . less disturbing than dancing the maypole at the mall. . :)

Ocean's Edge:

LOL

TYLWYTH TEG:

Probably. (g)

Red Deer:

In public, I would tend to rely upon charged objects/tools

Alacer:

Most people don't realize what a maypole symbolizes, anyway!

TYLWYTH TEG:

And its so difficult to find a good mall maypole these days. . . =)

L NightShade:

(g) I asked because of our earlier discussion about not depending on ritual but rather state of mind in case the need arises away from home.

Ocean's Edge:

(VBG)

Morgana:

this actually lines up with what I was teaching in class yesterday, regarding finding your center. . . hmmm. . . exactly, NightShade

TYLWYTH TEG:

I wouldn't say magick is dependent on anything but us. It could be done without -any- extra tools or actions. It would just be more difficult.

Alacer:

ok, what about God(s) and Goddesses? Are they real, or just symbols to help us concentrate?

Red Deer:

Real

Morgana:

not necessarily more difficult, SR, just different

Morgana:

real

Alacer:

I believe they are real, as well. And, what makes something a deity? If I worship Homer Simpson, do I gain power or anything as if worshipped Diana?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Hmm. . . depends on who you talk to. There are a number of people who perform magick without a thought to any deity. Do you really believe Homer Simpson's a god?

Alacer:

No, it was a jocular (but serious) question

Pixelite:

I've always felt that no matter what you call it the Godd/ess answers. So, you concentrate on Homer, but it's really the God who answers just as if you called him by any of a dozen other names.

Alacer:

Very True

TYLWYTH TEG:

I know. I mean that do you really think you could convince yourself without question that Homer Simpson was a god?

Red Deer:

Homer Simpson an aspect of the Horned God. . . I love it!

Ocean's Edge:

this goes back to the state of mind thing???

TYLWYTH TEG:

Scary. (G)

tessick:

how do " we" define that which is referred to as a deity?

TYLWYTH TEG:

IN a way, I suppose.

Morgana:

more like an aspect of Coyote or Loki

Alacer:

Do you have to have utter, complete faith in the Gods?

TYLWYTH TEG:

No. But somewhere in my head I accept that they're probably there.

Red Deer:

Yes, Morgana

Alacer:

That would be an interesting cult, though, wouldn't it?

tessick:

homerism????

TYLWYTH TEG:

Yes. Wonder what the temples would be like?

Morgana:

And the benediction would be "Don't have a Cow?"

Alacer:

Secret incantations. . "DOH!"

Pixelite:

Well, I don't know if I could have faith in God as Homer Simpson. . . . . . That might be a little scary (VBG)

Ocean's Edge:

Mo's Taverns

Morgana:

back to the subject. . . .

Ocean's Edge:

ahh we digress. . . . .

TYLWYTH TEG:

This was on subject. A little.

Alacer:

Do you have to have utter faith in the Gods to gain the advantages?

TYLWYTH TEG:

I don't think so. I never trust anyone with utter faith.

Morgana:

I personally have something beyond faith that the Gods are there. . . . I *know it* inside. . . y'know what I mean? a feeling. . .

Ocean's Edge:

yes

L NightShade:

Yes, Morgana.

Ocean's Edge:

exactly

tessick:

but what defines a "god/dess"?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Exactly. But not blind faith.

Morgana:

but something more than just that. . .

Alacer:

I have had personal experiences with them, but I still have doubts

Morgana:

and that's perfectly ok, alacerr

TYLWYTH TEG:

Well if you didn't doubt you'd be pretty one-dimensional.

Alacer:

I have proof, in other words

Fieval:

idea?/thought?. . . . . Opposite of faith not doubt. . . but fear

Alacer:

Not fear. . Respect

Fieval:

opposite of faith is respect????

Alacer:

no! Faith is respect

Fieval:

thanks!

Red Deer:

Faith is more. . .

Morgana:

the Christian theostructure is based on fear . . . but they demand blind faith. . . . so they cannot be opposites. . .

Fieval:

I agree Red Deer

Alacer:

It can be love, but not always

TYLWYTH TEG:

Faith is respect, but I think there's trust involved.

Red Deer:

Faith is believing even when you don't understand

Fieval:

Maybe they are just wrong. . . and got the idea mixed up

Pixelite:

Faith is Hope maybe??

Fieval:

Christians that is

Morgana:

faith is all these things, actually. . .

Alacer:

Faith is Faith

TYLWYTH TEG:

In a word.

Red Deer:

good summation, Alacer

Ocean's Edge:

Faith is expecting the best and preparing for the worst

Fieval:

Actually Christianity does not demand blind faith. . . just some Christians

Morgana:

belief, or belief in the Gods, is more. . . it is love, but more than that. . .

Alacer:

knowing that things will, ultimately, workout for the better

Red Deer:

True, Feival

Ocean's Edge:

faith is acceptance,

TYLWYTH TEG:

Of?

Ocean's Edge:

that what is is meant to be

Ocean's Edge:

but that we still have a roll to play in it.

TYLWYTH TEG:

I think we're treading the thin ice of predetermination.

Ocean's Edge:

sorry. . .

Alacer:

destiny?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Don't apologize. Destiny's a little different to me. It indicates that you'll end up somewhere. But not the path you take.

Ocean's Edge:

but is not magick, an attempt to work with or in some cases against that predetermination?

Alacer:

there is an ultimate goal. . . how you get there is up to you, whether or not you get there is up to you

TYLWYTH TEG:

But predetermination would say that whatever you do you play into it. Its unavoidable. That's why I don't like it. I prefer to believe that there's a little more randomness in the world.

Red Deer:

If magic is weaving the threads into a new pattern, that is not working against but working for

Alacer:

magick is threads, we just pluck 'em

Ocean's Edge:

yes, I see

TYLWYTH TEG:

But all patterns eventually resume their base state of energy.

Alacer:

the threads stop vibrating

TYLWYTH TEG:

Sounds like String Theory to me.

Red Deer:

Big Bang. . . Big Crunch

Alacer:

string theory? (never heard the string theory or haven't known it)

TYLWYTH TEG:

Yeah. The theory that all matter is made up of small strings vibrating at a few particular frequencies. And that when a number of strings get together, you get a particular quark. Move up the atom from there.

Alacer:

oh

TYLWYTH TEG:

Interesting idea, I think.

Ocean's Edge:

ahh Zen will be sorry he missed this. . .

Fieval:

I guess without a quantum physics chat room we go to Pagan/Wicca for "said" info? (G)

TYLWYTH TEG:

Of course. (g)

Ocean's Edge:

I guess

Red Deer:

magick and physics are married, for us

TYLWYTH TEG:

They're both a way to explain why/how something happens.

Fieval:

well yes. . . of course. . . but I don't think it's where most would think to look first. (G)

Ocean's Edge:

Is not quantum physics the believe in what one cannot prove as well

TYLWYTH TEG:

Or rather, physics is just one of many explanations.

Ocean's Edge:

(simplistic view)

TYLWYTH TEG:

The uncertainty principle.

Ocean's Edge:

Perhaps Zen could be convinced to teach a class in Quantum Theory as applied to magick?

Pixelite:

That would be an interesting class!

TYLWYTH TEG:

That would be interesting.

Red Deer:

Perhaps someone who knows Zen could invite him?

Ocean's Edge:

would be happy to twist his arm ever so gently

ReaperMan:

Zen is primitive, obsolete, why do you learn it?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Nothing is obsolete.

ReaperMan:

but it is!

L NightShade:

But this Zen is a person. (g)

TYLWYTH TEG:

Nothing is ever obsolete. There's always something to be learned from everything.

ReaperMan:

I see the truth in that but some things are hardly worth learning!!!

TYLWYTH TEG:

Even an XT has its uses, after all.

Red Deer:

TT - is there more you want to offer regarding Theory?

TYLWYTH TEG:

Well nothing as such. The questions are more interesting than anything I could think of right now.

Red Deer:

Otay - just didn't want our talking to preempt your class!

TYLWYTH TEG:

No, no. I was planning on a more comment-driven thing anyway!

Ocean's Edge:

ahh Red Deer, I forgot you were my friend from Chapel Hill. . . . . . We once spoke of TTEACH

Red Deer:

And, of course, soon as you say that comments dry up

TYLWYTH TEG:

Chapel Hill? As in NC?

L NightShade:

LOL

Red Deer:

yes, OE, TEACCH!

Red Deer:

Yes, TT.

TYLWYTH TEG:

Ah.

Red Deer:

familiar, TT?

Ocean's Edge:

yes, I'm the one with two autistic children

Red Deer:

Tylwyth Teg, Thank You for a great offering.

TYLWYTH TEG:

Thank you for having me.

Pixelite:

Thank you TT-It was very interesting!

TYLWYTH TEG:

Or putting up with me, whichever =)

Ocean's Edge:

yes thank you Tylwyth Teg, Goddess Bless

L NightShade:

Thanks TT

Red Deer:

Must be going now. . . will post this class ASAP, but it may have to be after we return from vacation. . . before the next full moon, at any rate.

TYLWYTH TEG:

I should go as well. Til! Merry Part. . .