Red Deer:

Merry Meet, folks

deathdesire:

MM Red Deer

Red Deer:

<--- is RD (editor's note - I now am seen by others in the room as "EVENT Host")

TypoDemon:

ok

deathdesire:

EG

Red Deer:

finally!

TypoDemon:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Uncle hostie }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Red Deer:

rofl

TypoDemon:

Carielle says she likes your new clothes Uncle

Skycab:

Ok, So what's a Pagan ? Wiccan? is there a difference,

what do you guys do?

Red Deer:

Skycab, we are about to begin a focused class I'd suggest some reading... at least on the BB's, then come to us with more focused questions, please

Skycab:

focussed, class, can I listen if quiet

Red Deer:

you are more than welcome to participate!

Red Deer:

or just listen

Skycab:

thank you

Red Deer:

OK folks MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION?

x Magyar x:

yep

Dr Dance:

yes

Bandia:

::Turns to RED DEER::

Red Deer:

First, the usual:

Red Deer:

oh, excuse me a sec...

TypoDemon:

forget to turn on the Macro's did we Red

x Magyar x:

lol

Elenya:

<----runs quickly and gives Red Deer a wedgie

deathdesire:

LOL

TypoDemon:

LOL!

Bandia:

ROFL

TypoDemon:

<-- hands him a crowbar

Dr Dance:

lol

Skycab:

lol

Bandia:

:)

Red Deer:

OK, I'm back

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor.

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

x Magyar x:

logging

TypoDemon:

<-- logging

CJLEO:

logged

Red Deer:

5) With that, I pass the besom to Typo Demon, for his discussion of "Faces of the God". Of course, I'll ward for you Typo and thanks to the loggers

TypoDemon:

thanks Red :>

let me start off by asking and answering a question, Why are you Wiccan/Pagan? there are 2 common answers to this.

1.) were brought up Christian and felt that it didn't fulfill your spiritial needs and did some soul searching and found Wicca on your own.

2.) were brought up Wiccan by your parents/relatives.

Lets first look at the most common answer. brought up Christian. its no secret that most Wiccans are female, and there are good reasons for this. many christian faiths have all but destroyed the concept of the Feminine diety. they have exalted the male figure ( God, Jehovah, Allah, ect, ect) and have supressed the female figure to a small or non-existant role. the Christian Mary is all that is left of the Female diety in Christianity. as most women are growing up they have no real role model for divinity except Mary. so many women feel left out are are made to feel inferior to males in most religious roles. so what do they do? they do some soul searching and determine that Christian religions are not for them and they seek their spiritial fulfillment elsewhere.

many of these women find Wicca a fulfilling religious concept not only because it recognizes the feminine deity it places her in a position of equality with the male deity. instead of the male being dominant he is her equal and vice versa, problem is that some women have taken Goddess worship to an extreme. and have done basically the same thing Christian religions have done but have switched the roles, making the God inferior or in some cases excluding him totally. this is a major mistake, if we exclude the God for the Goddess we are missing the whole concept of Wicca, ask your self this simple question. why do we say Goddess Bless? why don't we say God Bless? is it because the Christian faiths say God Bless or why don't we just simply say "Gods Bless"?

comments??

deathdesire:

i do say Gods

TypoDemon:

good DD :>

deathdesire:

ex: GoooodGods!

TypoDemon:

anyone else care to comment on this?

Red Deer:

sorry, but I don't Typo

TypoDemon:

why is that Red?

Red Deer:

I mean, say "Goddess Bless"

Red Deer:

I say "May the Lady and Lord hold you close between Them."

TypoDemon:

that is a good statement Red :>

but most in here ( from what i have seen ) say Goddess bless... i have never seen God Bless in here 'cept for the fundies. why is that many don't use God Bless?

TypoDemon:

i feel its a backlash against christianity, because they do say it

Trollfrog:

some are less than comfortable with the "male" aspects of divinity

TypoDemon:

aye Troll thats my point... and the point of this class. if there are no more comments on this subject shall we move on

Refer man:

let's

TypoDemon:

ok then we continue :>

Dr Dance:

why should anyone paste a gender to a god?

TypoDemon:

now lets look closer at the many faces of the God. in Wicca the Goddess is shown as a triple Goddess... Maiden,Mother,and Crone. the God is also 3fold, in that he is shown as the Youthful Boy, Warrior and Sage. the God has many names to go with these various forms. examples of the Youthful Boy include: Adonis, Eros, Apollo, Horus, and Freyr. in these form the God is shown as the Youthful Boy growing into manhood which leads us to examples of the Warrior: Ares, Thor, Osiris, and Tyr are just a few names the God is invoked by in his Warrior aspect. and as he ages he is shown as the Sage. examples of this include: Zeus, Odinn, and Ra. most Wiccans revere the God in the form of the Horned One. in this aspect he is a fertility God as can be seen by the wheel of the seasons.

starting with Yule the Goddess gives birth to the God as a symbol of rebirth of light and the coming of the Sun. at Candlemas the God is seen as a small boy at the side of the Goddess, his form is a symbol of the banishment of the winter months and the welcoming of the fertile seasons. at Ostara the God is seen as an older child but still not a man yet. his form here is a symbol of the earth ripeing, many traditions show the Goddess as a young girl at Ostara. in my opinion this is a perfect symbol of the earths return to fertility as the God and Goddess play in the fields, they are usually shown dancing in the fields. this is a symbol of their blessing the crops and animals and bestowing their love upon all that they have created.

at Beltaine the God is shown as the young man, here he is the Warrior and he weds the Goddess, this is a symbol of his role as the sun God. the Goddess is here refered as Mother Earth. his light drenches the earth in warmth and love. this is the time that many Wiccans handfast with each other and his light fertilizes the crops to be harvested at Lammas.

at lammas the God is shown as an aging man, here he is the Sage. it is a symbol of the earths begining return to the winter and the banishment of the Sun. at Mabon the God dies as the sun is banished, the days get shorter and the nights longer as the Goddess mourns

her fallen lover. at Samhain the God is shown passing into the underworld with the title of Dark Lord here he awaits his rebirth from the Goddess and his return to the Light as the cycle begins again at Yule.

as we now have seen the wheel of the year, we watch the God being born from the Goddess and grow into a man and into the sage. now can any of the ex Christians find the similarities between the Wiccan God and that of Jesus?

Red Deer:

plenty...

deathdesire:

ressurection...as with the Earth and it's cycles

TypoDemon:

please elaborate

Red Deer:

for some of us, the Lord is sacrificed upon the Tree of Life

Bandia:

The only similarity I see is that of the fact that Jesus goes through the birth, death, rebirth cycle

Dr Dance:

exactly

TypoDemon:

thats a basic similarity Bandia

Bandia:

True

Red Deer:

difference is that Jesus did it once, and that's supposed to be enough for forever... cuts us off from the cycles of time

CJLEO:

What about the marker periods like the teaching by Jesus at 12 years old?

deathdesire:

{VBG}, ahh yes

Sdude:

That is enough forever. It's eternity

Bandia:

I would say that Jesus was a sage before he died

TypoDemon:

Jesus was born from the Goddess (Mary) at Yule (Christmas) grows into a man, here he is a warrior even though he doesn't fight he is still a peaceful warrior.

deathdesire:

or when he was a baby

Red Deer:

the Lord does it repeatedly, eternally, hence it is a cycle

TypoDemon:

after Jesus dies (albeit not totally in the pagan tradition) he is exalted by his followers as the Sage, and he promises to return again.

Refer man:

but aren't we confusing the son of god with another god?

deathdesire:

they are the same but different aspects of..

Red Deer:

he wars with Satan, though not physically Typo

TypoDemon:

no we're not... we are showing how the early Christians used the Pagan traditions to create there understanding of Jesus and Divinity

Bandia:

Which was to convert the Pagans of the time, do you disagree Typo?

TypoDemon:

not at all that was the main purpose to make Jesus a symbol the Pagans could accept and identity with

Dr Dance:

to incorporate the same beliefs?

Bandia:

Using the Pagan holidays to make it more acceptable

Refer man:

i know it was to convert, have no problem with that, but i am not sure the two are the same.

Bandia:

Thanks RD

ViragoWitch:

::click::

Trollfrog:

[and taking all the fun out of the holidays in doing so]

TypoDemon:

but in doing that they basiclly refected Jesus's role as the god... we see him born from the divine female, grow into warrior (peaceful warrior) and become the sage

x Magyar x:

click

Bandia:

LOL Troll

deathdesire:

in other words accepting our way but different packaging?

TypoDemon:

yes DD excatly

deathdesire:

subliminal religion

Refer man:

a different "version"

TypoDemon:

but when we rejected their packaging, we often rejected our understanding of the God as well

deathdesire:

because they rejected the Goddess, once we feel not so inclined to honor our God? do i have that right?

TypoDemon:

no DD

deathdesire:

ok kinda backwards thinking nevermind

TypoDemon:

wait DD let me explain :>

Cloudburst:

Typo, I think it may have been more like borrowing our package to put a whole different merchandise in...

TypoDemon:

what many have done is to see Jesus and the xian God as the only God even tho they rever the Goddess they are conditioned against the God because of the negative expericences in christianity

Bandia:

From a feminist perspective the God is not accepted because of the early Patriarchal treatment of the Goddess. Now this is an extreme view, so please note that

Refer man:

cloud "OUR"?

deathdesire:

Aha!

TypoDemon:

i pointed that out in the begining of the class Bandia :>

Bandia:

I know, just wanted to reinforce that it was an extreme view :)

TypoDemon:

some feminists have taking Goddess worship to an exteme like the Dianics... they don't accept the God at all

Cloudburst:

"our" as in "pagans", Refer

deathdesire:

a pity EG

ViragoWitch:

Correction: Dianics focus more on the Goddess...Only a *few* Dianic groups choose to ignore the God

Refer man:

i thought you "refered" to that

deathdesire:

true VW

Elenya:

Aye, VW

TypoDemon:

yes VW but there are some that do that

ViragoWitch:

And believe it or not... many Dianics even shave their underarms

deathdesire:

LOL

x Magyar x:

lol

Bandia:

LOL VW

TypoDemon:

LOL

hoplsromntic:

lol

Dr Dance:

lol

Elenya:

RedStar:

and their... Other parts... LOL

deathdesire:

oh stop!

Trollfrog:

but NOT their legs

TypoDemon:

in my opinion the Christian God and the Wiccan God are the same deity ( or energy ) its the Faces we put on them that are different

deathdesire:

Typo please ..

Refer man:

ecxept the french ones

Trollfrog:

[sorry]

Bandia:

Most religions are quite the same.

hoplsromntic:

that is true

Red Deer:

very interesting point Typo to bad Nestor's not here... I'm relatively certain he'd take issue with it

TypoDemon:

The God in my belief its not an old man sitting in judgement, but he is the same force that the Christians see as the old man... we create the image of the God in our mind... what face we put on him doesnt matter... just that we can still connect with him and he us

RedStar:

actually it makes more sence to acknowlege that all gods, godesss, etc... are nothing more than small facets of the aspects of a one greater intelegence...

TypoDemon:

aye RedStar that is correct

Bandia:

Okay, now that gets me. How can we call the one X-tian God a he?

hoplsromntic:

i agree with red

Red Deer:

just as monotheistic religions have excluded the feminine aspects, they've also excluded the warrior and lover aspects???

TypoDemon:

same as calling the Goddess she Bandia

deathdesire:

and only the Lord/Lady could pull off doing all those personalities at once VBEG

Refer man:

that greater thing is what we all seek star.

Cloudburst:

RedStar, if deities are aspects of "the force", WHICH face we choose to worship does make a difference in how we look at life

Bandia:

But the X-tian God is supposed to be the highest being, going back to partiarchal rule

deathdesire:

true Cloud

Bandia:

One God should be sexless

TypoDemon:

so say the Christians Bandia

Cloudburst:

e.g. Jesus going through the cycle just once for all time is very different from the god going through it continuously

RedStar:

but us being limited in our expresionalisim (being the flawed mortal types we are)... we tend to call upon an aspect that the we are more intimate with, or can relate more easely too... in our own personal worlds so to speak.

Red Deer:

i prefer the Craft's polarities, Bandia

deathdesire:

i'm listening

Refer man:

ALL, you have a point

Bandia:

I agree RED DEER

deathdesire:

you guys this is Typo's class can we listen first then ask Q's later?

TypoDemon:

ummm DD this is part of the class :>

Bandia:

I thought that`s what we were doing.

deathdesire:

<---is all discombobulated

Bandia:

hey, that`s my word DD

deathdesire:

hehe

TypoDemon:

well lets end this class tonight with a discssion about how we can include the God more in our lives and rituals

RedStar:

heaven, is just another metaphorical

deathdesire:

i worship men... there's my tribute EG

ViragoWitch:

lol

TypoDemon:

personlly i feel that the Moon rituals are a good rit for the Goddess and we should ( at least i do ) have a sun ritual for the God... any comment?

Bandia:

We just have to try to accept both equally in our lives

RedStar:

dwelling place for those forces or energies that we being in the material plane

Bandia:

Good idea Typo

Red Deer:

I totally agree, Typo... and do

deathdesire:

{cracks out the sunscreen}

RedStar:

do not access or understand as well as we would like... again we are still trapped in that mind lock of the tanagable....

deathdesire:

don'w want the delicate parts torched ;)

Dr Dance:

RedStar:

typo... in in many ancient cultures, the Sun rituals were tributed to the famine aspects of the divine... as the sun was seen at s the force that was the life giver, the creator, etc.

TypoDemon:

in some yes, but i have found that most sun rits were dedicated to the God RedStar

Bandia:

Earth and Moon were quite often put as women

TypoDemon:

correct Bandia :>

deathdesire:

what about Indian religions... like Shamanism? i think they do honor both equally

Bandia:

I don`t know anything about them

Cloudburst:

The sun is a goddess more often the farther north you go. Something to do with being necessary for life more in cold climates than warm, perhaps

TypoDemon:

aye Cloud and admittly i havent studied many northern religions

RedStar:

depending on the cultural "Idea" of feminine is what what dictated what planitary, or sun asspects were seen as.

Bandia:

I`ll stick to Celtic, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Hindu, and East Asian. Those are what I know

TypoDemon:

but ones such as the Norse,Greek/Roman, Egyptian, and Aztec had male Sun gods

Bandia:

You can put the Celts in with that Typo

TypoDemon:

thank you Bandia :>

deathdesire:

hey Typo what about hermaphroditic Gods? Goddesses? Things?

ViragoWitch:

Dieties

TypoDemon:

ummmm well i didnt plan to discuss them tonight DD

deathdesire:

thank you VW trying to find the right word :P

Bandia:

DD throws a curve ball

deathdesire:

as always EG

TypoDemon:

AYE that she did!

deathdesire:

but do any exist? or is is just spirits? like faeries?

TypoDemon:

a couple of balls and some breasts to be exact

deathdesire:

LOL

LordCearnach:

The Celts were one of the few, if exclusive, tribal societies that looks towards female-dominant pantheons before Roman and Anglo-Saxon influence....

Bandia:

They do exist in some cultures

deathdesire:

as a God/Goddess form?

TypoDemon:

yes Hermes was often shown as a herm. hence the name is from him

LordCearnach:

A "follow-up" more or less to Cloudburst's earlier remarks...{s}

deathdesire:

Hermes /Aphrodite

Bandia:

DD you stole my point

deathdesire:

two different but the same hence hermaphrodites

Red Deer:

I disagree LordC

Cloudburst:

Cearnach, have you seen Patricia Monaghan's work on sun goddesses?

Red Deer:

the preAnglo Celtic pantheons were not dominated by EITHER sex

LordCearnach:

I've studied Celtic mythology in-depth for several years now...

Red Deer:

the gods and goddesses were equal as were women and men in Celtic society

Cloudburst:

Don't want to go too far into it now, I should probably do a class on it some time. But very interesting exegesis

deathdesire:

<--sensing a "boys against the girls" baseball match LOL

Red Deer:

would love to have you facilitate that discussion Cloud

Bandia:

Girls will win.

deathdesire:

naturally EG

Dr Dance:

batter up...

Bandia:

Just tell me when it is Cloud.

deathdesire:

apparently LOL

TypoDemon:

this is the whole point of my class summed up in this discussion. here we are arguing about who is the deity of the Sun, should it be male or female, and Cloud has proven my point to exclude the

Cloudburst:

Could happen Sometime when I'm feelin REAL controversial...

TypoDemon:

god in some areas and put in a GOddess

LordCearnach:

The Celts were solar-oriented for the duration of their history... and began with feminine aspects relating specifically to the Sun... the "light" of the sun was shifted later towards masculine characteristics....

Cloudburst:

Bingo, Lord C <-- not being revisionist, just been reading a lot

Red Deer:

I'll agree with that C, because oriented is quite different

from dominated

TypoDemon:

i can see the discussion of the God has pretty much ended and so i will end the class. but this discussion is great!

Cloudburst:

and from a lot of these cultures, what we have is a late version and the conquerors' view at that

Dr Dance:

THANKS TYPO

LordCearnach:

Lugh/Llew specifically encapsuled that aspect... but I digress...{s}

Bandia:

::Applaudes Typo for a great discussion::

Cloudburst:

Yeah, me too

ViragoWitch:

Bravo...

deathdesire:

thanks Typo!

Cloudburst:

YAY TYPO!!!!

TypoDemon:

<-- bows... thank you thank you... no applause just send money

Elenya:

Thanks Typo, you've given much fuel for thought

deathdesire:

EG

LordCearnach:

WTG TD {s}

Bandia:

LOL. I would if I had any

Bandia:

Taking donations now.

Red Deer:

excellent discussion Typo! A thousand thank yous.

LordCearnach:

{-- tipping the waitresses

TypoDemon:

{-- logging off

Red Deer:

brb

deathdesire:

:::::hands Bandia one small used camel:::

ViragoWitch:

::hands Typo a nickel:: I'm on a student budget!