Morrigan:

IF YOU WILL ALL TAKE YOUR SEATS WE WILL BEGIN

drummergal:

sitting

melilott:

chatty i can't type with my hands on my seat

Ankh:

{{ sitting next to his love holding hands ready

Carielle:

::taking a seat next to Ankh::

Morrigan:

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA 101! TONIGHTS CLASS IS HOSTED BY TYR. HER TOPIC IS PAGAN PARENTING.

melilott:

and i have no place to take my seat

Morrigan:

PLEASE KEEP ALL MM, BB, AND MP AND SIDE CONVERSATIONS IN IM DURING CLASS.

DISRUPTERS WILL BE WARNED ONCE AND THEN EXCLUDED.

In case of disaster {g} could one or two of you who plan on attending the entire class please log as back up?

Elenya:

{-----logging

melilott:

logging

Carielle:

Logging

Xori:

logging

azdvhgjkl:

logging

Morrigan:

TYR, YOU HAVE THE FLOOR

TYR:

Okay....what I want to do is hold this as an open discussion, I am learning to do this as I go. Besides I never did figure out macros this week {g}

I brought my oldest daughter with me tonight to help poke me when I do things wrong too.

Morrigan:

{g}

TYR:

The floor is open for questions at any point and discussion throughout. I am still not sure where to start, as it was when my kids got interested in what I was doing.

drummergal:

can i ask a question?

TYR:

Sure drummer

drummergal:

when i got interested in Wicca this summer, everyone i knew freaked and said that i was in "great danger". why?

TYR:

Most people that freak don't know what Wicca really is,

Morrigan:

drummer, can we talk about that after class? This is a discussion about Parenting

drummergal:

i know, but they wouldn't even let me explain... sorry

Potatoetoe:

I brought my daughter to circle when she was a toddler, no danger, devotional circle, in perfect trust

TYR:

Its okay Drummer its a valid question but a bit later K?

Morrigan:

Seems to me that if you start early with your children, teach them to appreciate nature and the earth, then slowly deepen the understanding

Aziel:

is this an open conversation/question chat lesson?

TYR:

I started my kids in the circle last year.

Yes Azie, it works better for me that way.

Potatoetoe:

children bring a real dance of life to circles

TYR:

Just this week I let my oldest start reading To Ride a Silver Broomstick.

Aziel:

all right...maybe I can give my view point on a few things, because I count as a kid...

Morrigan:

Tyr, are your parents Pagan?

WiseWitch:

But - at what age do you introduce children to skyclad circles, or ones that do the Great Rite in reality, not symbolically?

Xori:

Being fairly new to Wicca myself, I allowed my daughter to read the books I got when she asked, I also think it helped a lot to tell her how xian holidays are founded on pagan ones = similar

TYR:

No.. I grew up in a basically non religious household. They are not atheist but I was not raised in any structured church setting.

Morrigan:

after the age of consent?

Ankh:

if i remember correctly Wise the great rite is done privately out of public view

LadyofAvalon:

Or when do you think that you can start to teach the mysteries?

Lone Druid:

when they are young and believe in all things, for this is the way of nature.

Xori:

me too tyr

OceanShadow:

Indeed

TYR:

We don't do skyclad in our circles here, basically because I am too shy {g}

Potatoetoe:

legally it is considered a form of child abuse, it may need to remain discreet, until the legal age of consent

WiseWitch:

ld - you have kids participating in ritual, say, with the 5-fold kiss, you're gonna get them taken by Child protective services and your butts gonna get in jail.

{Editor's note: In most states, children may legally attend skyclad circles so long as accompanied by a parent. This is NOT to say you can't be hassled, but the law is on your side.}

LadyofAvalon:

which is 18?

Lone Druid:

For the beauty of the outer self is only out done by the beauty of the inner self.

klf:

how come it is considered child abuse. al we are doing is expressing our freedom of religion?

Azrael:

I thought the age of consent was 17

LadyofAvalon:

may I ask what the 5-fold kiss is?

TYR:

There are some rituals that children are just plain not ready for.

Lone Druid:

This is true, in the current environment.

Aziel:

yeah, I think society has made it child abuse...society has taken the beauty out of everything...

Morrigan:

I think it's shaky ground with the law klf

azdvhgjkl:

I think children aren't given enough credit...I was introduced to the craft at age 3.....never looked back since

Morrigan:

I think I agree with you Tyr

Lone Druid:

I was also introduced at 3.

Potatoetoe:

be careful, stay symbolic and legal. US society is very politically conservative

azdvhgjkl:

it was a slow pains-taking introduction.....with animals in the fore

OceanShadow:

with my own son, (7) we talk a lot about what I believe, but I don't specifically give it a name, but he participates in all my daily rituals

Azrael:

May I ask, What age is the age of consent?

Xori:

I think the skyclad issue as far as intimate family only circle rituals and the kids depends on how they've been raised in the house. If skyclad is a regular thing and no big deal = not an issue

melilott:

child abuse would be introducing the child to a ritual act it was too young to understand or consent fully to

WiseWitch:

That depends on the state, Azrael.

OceanShadow:

although some are personal between me and the powers that be

TYR:

Mine are included in full moon rituals and the major Sabbats, but skyclad is out and so it the great rite until they are older.

Morrigan:

I believe it is 18 Azreal

Ankh:

age of consent depends on the state

OceanShadow:

or province {g}

Morrigan:

18 in Texas {g}

Aziel:

when I am older, and do have children, I will teach them that there is nothing to be ashamed of in the nude...

Ankh:

like in Florida its 16

Lone Druid:

In Tenn. it is still 13 in some counties.

Azrael:

Can someone please tell me what Skyclad is?

LadyofAvalon:

may I ask what the 5-fold kiss is?

melilott:

i feel it would be child abuse to have a 10 yr old participate in the great rite

WiseWitch:

naked, Azr

Morrigan:

naked Azreal

Xori:

without being robed

OceanShadow:

16 in Ont., 14 with parental consent, I believe

Potatoetoe:

however, if children participate in their own rituals, no one ultimately can control it

WiseWitch:

5 fold kiss includes kissing breasts, just above the genitals, etc.

Le Pup:

Thanks Mel.....

Aziel:

can anyone say in a sentence what the Great Rite is? I'm not familiar with it...

WiseWitch:

Ritual sex, Azi.

TYR:

So the age of consent varies form state to state and country to country. This can be confusing for the family on the move.

Lone Druid:

I believe we all know when it is right to involve children, when they know and can decide for themselves.

{Editor's note: Regardless of state or county, one who is legally a minor can NOT consent to anything, unless emancipated by marriage or by the courts.}

Morrigan:

the joining of the God and Goddess

Aziel:

no...definitely not for kids, the Great Rite...

Xori:

I have to say, that I'd feel uncomfortable with my daughter participating in ritual regarding the 5-fold kiss and skyclad

OceanShadow:

Yes

TYR:

Mine are not ready yet. My oldest just now understands the charge of the Goddess.

Le Pup:

Good for you Xori!

Xori:

I agree tyr - they must first understand really what it's about

Morrigan:

yes Xori I agree too

OceanShadow:

as with anything, a child is introduced to the full benefits of life as they mature and show that they can handle the responsibility of it

TYR:

Okay, lets take another leap with this.. how do we help our kids deal with classmates that don't understand the craft?

Morrigan:

otherwise it's too easily confused

Xori:

I'd feel more comfortable if I knew my daughter totally understood and chose to

LadyofAvalon:

I think that it also depends on the child and what s/he knows. I t would be wrong to put a child in or at a ritual where the Great Rite is being done if s/he has no idea what it is or for.

Potatoetoe:

My daughter was taught to watch the environment around her, and to respect the land

Aziel:

one more question: how many of you have taken part in the Great Rite?

Morrigan:

That was one of my questions Tyr

Vochisoisse:

me

Azrael:

I haven't

Morrigan:

that and how to respond to questions from the grandparents. I'm in the closet

Le Pup:

No way!

LadyofAvalon:

I haven't. Too young.

Potatoetoe:

to watch the sun rise and the moon rise, and the setting of both

Aziel:

Tyr I deal daily with people who won't accept me for my belief...

Xori:

I tell my daughter to try not to talk about it, but since our school incident, I've told her to explain to those who ask and to disregard those who give criticism

TYR:

Its one of the biggies too. Especially at Samhain...its difficult for the other kids when we look at it as a religious holiday.

Azrael:

I'm not too young, i just haven't.

Potatoetoe:

to listen to the whispering of the trees

WiseWitch:

The only coven I HPSSed, the HP was gay. Great Rite wasn't really an option....

OceanShadow:

regarding classmates that's tough, but my son as yet to have a problem that way, as he is in a vastly diverse culture, we only talk about our beliefs in terms of what they mean to us without

OceanShadow:

being really specific

Aziel:

you see, I go the a Catholic school, and some of them can't stand me...

WiseWitch:

in my son's class, there are two Jews and one pagan. The school is big on multicultural stuff, tho, so....

OceanShadow:

besides his teacher knows of my beliefs and heartily approves

Xori:

I found that around various holidays, by explaining how xian holidays relate to the pagan ones, has given her knowledge to better explain to classmates

Potatoetoe:

then if you go to a Catholic school, emphasize the Queen of Heaven

Morrigan:

good idea Xori

TYR:

That makes sense ocean....we have a fairly diverse culture here...we have many native Americans in our school system so the school is a bit more willing to bend.

LadyofAvalon:

I got laughed at when I once told (during a talk about religion) that I believe in reincarnation.

Carielle:

I have a question about introducing very young children to Wicca....I've heard of a ritual called "wiccaning," similar to a Christening for Christians, and wonder if any of you can tell me

klf:

ocean you and your children are lucky to be in such a school system.

Morrigan:

I'm in the midwest. Very conservative out here

Carielle:

about it.....and whether or not you agree with he concept

OceanShadow:

besides in public schools religious specific material is no longer allowed

bonv:

Is there a main topic for this evening. If this isn't going anywhere, I'll go on to something else. But I do want to remind everyone to note the Help Issue and WADL on the BB Bonnie

Azrael:

I'm in a small town in NY and it's very conservative

Morrigan:

I've not heard of it Carielle

WiseWitch:

Wiccaning is less a dedication to the Gods, than an invitation that the Gods bless the child.

Xori:

yes carielle - I've learned a little about that

TYR:

I read about Wiccaning in a couple of books but they were not very specific.

OceanShadow:

so they celebrate all religion, and all prayer etc, is non specific so it fits

Xori:

Well, Ocean, remember that thing I had going at my daughter's school?

klf:

it may not be allowed, but it is implied.

WiseWitch:

We are discussing pagan parenting, Bonv.

Carielle:

I've heard of it as both a calling for blessing, and as a "dedication" of sorts....the blessing part I'm fine with, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the dedication part...how do you

OceanShadow:

Yes, I do

Carielle:

dedicate someone else to follow a path before they have the knowledge to decide whether that path is for them or not?

Potatoetoe:

Religious evangelism is being allowed, in the public schools, through inspirational talks by evangelists

Azrael:

What should the parents do if each parent of a child is of a different religion, what should the child be taught?

Morrigan:

I have to agree with your misgivings Carielle

Ankh:

me too

Elenya:

Aye, Carielle....I have heard of it as a blessing, not dedication

WiseWitch:

Cari, in some cases it's kind of like a....dedication to the community - making the child a protected member of the community, not a part of the religions.

Morrigan:

I want to allow my girls to choose for themselves

Xori:

I've learned of Wiccaning to be only a blessing, that the child may grow to find his/her own path

LadyofAvalon:

what age do you think is a good time for them to decide?

Morrigan:

to be tolerant Azreal

OceanShadow:

For instance my daughter's preschool celebrates Ostara, as the first day of spring, I actually helped them with that and they were very grateful

TYR:

I am not comfortable with that part either. Its not fair to dedicate them in advance of them knowing what their path is.

Potatoetoe:

You introduce them to a concept of all things being respected and alive

Xori:

I think both Azrael

azdvhgjkl:

allowing choice is good, but I feel a parent has a right to raise their child in their faith....they can always opt out later

OceanShadow:

Lady, I think its totally independent of the child

bonv:

Thank you, I just popped in and it seemed to be changing between parenting and the Great Rite. I am a teacher in a metropolitan school district. I do have opinions.

OceanShadow:

what the child is ready for

Aziel:

that's just like being Catholic...they baptized me as a child, and they expect me to keep that throughout my life...

Morrigan:

Yes Azd, just so you never say "this is the only way"

Ankh:

aye Morrigan

forestdragon:

is this an open chat time

OceanShadow:

Indeed, I always put it as "this is what I believe"

azdvhgjkl:

well I would expect only intelligent decisions, but a child of mine would be raised Pagan

Potatoetoe:

to fully initiate is not completely proper

Carielle:

AZD, if you raise the children in your faith, do you also give them knowledge of other religions, in case your faith is ultimately not theirs?

Xori:

I disagree AZD - I think that a child should be raised in such a fashion that he/she is armed with much info in order to make their own choice

WiseWitch:

In my case, i made a vow years before i had my child, to raise him Jewish. I'm not in that religion any more, yet my mother won't let me out of that vow. So he goes to Hebrew school, but

TYR:

Its not fair to tell them its the only way....mine are interested in the craft now, but that may change...its like the what I want to be when I grow up thing.

Auntie Isha:

May I ask a question?

WiseWitch:

is also exposed to what I believe and do.

Potatoetoe:

I taught my daughter about all religions

Elenya:

We attend a UU church so our kids are exposed to a vary of faiths, they know our faith, but are free to choose their own path

TYR:

Any time Auntie...ask away

OceanShadow:

of course Auntie

Auntie Isha:

My son will be 13 this year and I am arranging a rite of passage for him...

Boudica:

We (DH and I) are not going to choose what religious path our son will travel. We have given him a moral base to start from. He will choose which religious experience he wants to relate to.

Morrigan:

I want to give my children the knowledge and understanding of Pagan lifestyle and hope that they make an educated decision when the time comes

azdvhgjkl:

of course...that's just education....do you see me out to convert anyone....a well rounded education will allow any child of mine the choices he needs to make

LadyofAvalon:

what do you think is a good way to teach you children respect for this religion when they are very young so that they have a respect for it later and so that they do not take the rituals lightly?

Auntie Isha:

he is a bit hesitant but I feel it is important

bonv:

It is important to keep a low profile. One of my students has a mom who practiced. The child would say too much and the kids were only thinking of her as strange. It wasn't the best thing .t

Morrigan:

Agreed Boudica!

Boudica:

We have provided him with any and all information about the various paths to choose, including pagan and Wicca. It will be his decision in the long run.

WiseWitch:

Bonv, would you tell orthodox Jews to be low profile, too?

Auntie Isha:

I am not forcing him to be pagan.. but I see this as something I want him to have

Potatoetoe:

there are times to teach children discretion

Herne:

Carielle, I am not in favor of indoctrinating children in any faith , that includes the Craft, if they are inclined as they usually are, fine, if they are not, fine, 14 is as young usually as I have ever heard of a first degree being given

TYR:

Auntie...remember that thirteen is a very difficult age. Anything a parent wants is stupid or embarrassing.. at least that is the way I saw it.

Morrigan:

LadyofA, I try to instill in my children a deep love and respect for nature and Mother Earth.

Auntie Isha:

yes...

forestdragon:

i think you should wait until the child can take responsibility for what they do

Morrigan:

I remember Tyr {g}

Potatoetoe:

I kept quiet during the time of most danger for us between the ages of 11-15, my daughter then met a group of pagan teenagers, and remembered

Morrigan:

good point forest!

Auntie Isha:

I am single and want him to develop relationships with men as being his friends and to be there with him on the path to manhood...

Lone Druid:

When a child questions, you should answer and explain.

Xori:

I agree Auntie, if only from the sociology standpoint that in our culture of diversities, males are lacking in rite of passage ritual, where as girl's rites of passage come from nature....

OceanShadow:

well I think if a child is raised with the beliefs, he or she may reach a point in their teens where they question it, but if it is part of their everyday lives, it becomes a part of them and it

OceanShadow:

grows with them as they grow

klf:

this country has to learn that pagan is a religion just like Jewish and Methodist. they have to learn to accept it just like everything else. teaching discretion will only hid the fact that it

bonv:

No, I wouldn't . However, only possibly if one was singular in a hostile environment. Sometimes we are so headstrong on what we feel is right that we are not careful on the approach.

TYR:

I wouldn't force him just to make you feel better...let him choose.. you will both be happier than if it's turned into an all out war.

klf:

is there

Herne:

yes, answer and explain, but make them aware that there are opposing viewpoints as well

Auntie Isha:

Thank you

Potatoetoe:

we cannot force anyone to our ways, we are enlisted

Morrigan:

I agree with you Herne

Ankh:

aye make sure to let the child know you encourage them to investigate all options

Brigantia:

I'm a newcomer to Wicca and I find that the books I've read and the classes that I've attended to be inspiring

OceanShadow:

Indeed

TYR:

Anyone out there teaching their children how to do small rituals on their own?

Morrigan:

teach open mindedness

Grey Myst:

what a popular room we have tonight

Elenya:

Aye, Tyr

Boudica:

You all choose what path you were going to travel., regardless of your upbringing, right? We can only provide information to our children in the hopes that they choose what is right and proper for them

bonv:

When a child is only 8 or 9 and they appear odd to others, sometimes they experience rejection that is very painful. You can say we have to take a stand, but we have to be aware .

Xori:

I have

Potatoetoe:

my daughter chose her own path, and loves me for the choice

OceanShadow:

I have recently given Andrew a book of meditations for children

TYR:

I have been teaching mine to used candles and their own energy to overcome bad habits.

OceanShadow:

it was very good and he's enjoying it, it has helped him much

Morrigan:

how old is Andrew OceanShadow?

OceanShadow:

7

TYR:

oops.. she poked me.. habits.

LadyofAvalon:

I have a question. My Aunt is having a baby in May and I have found a wonderful baby blessing. It doesn't say anything against her religion or say that she will be pagan or anything to that effect. It is just asking the Lord any Lady to protect and bless her. Do you see any problem with me doing this when she is born?

Potatoetoe:

I frustrated her by keeping secrets about the religion

Xori:

I've taught, among some others, to do a daily gesteral ritual in the morning

Morrigan:

I don't Lady

forestdragon:

i think you should expose them to all options but be careful what you expose them to children tend to act before thinking about the consequences

Xori:

I don't lady, unless the parents disagree

OceanShadow:

and we often work together, on small daily life type rituals

klf:

i don't see a problem with it. if the parents do not object

LadyofAvalon:

may I ask what the daily gesteral ritual is? I am not familiar with it.

bonv:

We tend to teach our children right and wrong because as pagans we are committed to it. Remember that our commitment is a great part of our lives more so than many others.

Xori:

I've I'm about to become a godmother and tho the mother is catholic, she said she'd like me to do a short thing during the christening

LadyofAvalon:

But you see that is the problem they do not know about my religion!

TYR:

I teach mine to use colors to take good and bad energies in and out of them.. the candles help them focus.

Morrigan:

you'd better clear it with them first then

OceanShadow:

Xori, is that problematic for you, considering the roll of Godparent in the Catholic religion

Morrigan:

how old are your children Tyr?

LadyofAvalon:

easier said then done I am afraid

TYR:

Mine are 8 and 9...so the candles are supervised.

Carielle:

xori, does she know your religious beliefs?

Xori:

Oh it's just a little gester ritual I do each morning where I stand in each direction and with certain hand gestures to welcome all the elements and the day

Morrigan:

of course Lady!

forestdragon:

wish their was someone around to teach me

DruidLord:

Have you gazed upon the comet??

Potatoetoe:

Mine is 18

forestdragon:

i'm 18

Morrigan:

Mine are 4 and 2

OceanShadow:

for the Catholics say the role of the godparent is to raise the child in the faith if anything should ever happen to the parents

Xori:

It's not a problem for ME ocean - I was more worried about it being a problem for the mother - but she's happy about it and wants me to do a little something

TYR:

we are going comet gazing tonight.. I think it will be a learning experience for the kids...what a way to teach then what the Goddess can do.

Morrigan:

If that's the case Ocean, then the parents better make sure they approve of the religion of the Godparents

Potatoetoe:

raise them to praise the Queen of Heaven, if they are Catholic

DruidLord:

Exactly--a once in a lifetime perhaps experience

Carielle:

That is the case, Chat

Xori:

We've talked about it ocean and the baby's mother and I both see a godparent as one who will teach a child about the different paths and to encourage her to one she chooses

Morrigan:

good idea Potatoe!

Herne:

Do any of you have children that can see fairies and other nature spirits and still understand the language of the trees?

OceanShadow:

Ahhh good!

Carielle:

I'm glad to hear that Xori...

Xori:

We're gonna try to here Tyr, but it's a little overcast

LadyofAvalon:

many xian religions think that blasphemy because it says to worship none other then me.

TYR:

Have any of the parents read Ashleen O'geas book?

Potatoetoe:

it works, my family used it to maintain the belief

OceanShadow:

yes .. unfortunately he doesn't understand the language of humans

Morrigan:

no Tyr

WiseWitch:

Tyr, I have and was disappointed with it.

Carielle:

Herne, I have no children of my own, but I do have a young niece....

Xori:

Yea Carielle - I had a long talk with her (the mother) - see it's my x-husband and her child and I wanted to make sure it was totally cool with her

TYR:

I was too.. to a point.. I like the cave meditation though...working on it for my kids.

Xori:

No I haven't tyr - what's it about

Herne:

How old are you Carielle?

WiseWitch:

Tyr, I like some of the kid meditations in Spiral Dance. Worked great with kids in shelters.

Elenya:

My daughter's favorite introduction was a book by Mary Summer Rain, "Mountains, Meadows and Moombeams"

forestdragon:

wish i hadn't been clouded so i could still see and understand all the mythical creatures

TYR:

Its written by a family in phoenix about raising their child in the craft...its okay, but its just kind of flat.

Potatoetoe:

The funny thing is if you are successful at Pagan parenting, things happen, like a daughter who always finds four leaf clovers, its weird!!!!

OceanShadow:

yes that's the one I gave Andrew, it's really lovely

Morrigan:

how old was she when she read it Elenya?

Brigantia:

I just bought Spiral dance yesterday...So far I read the first chapter

Elenya:

8, Morrigan

Xori:

I have that book WW and didn't see those - hmmm gotta go look

Morrigan:

k thanx!

Morrigan:

is it something that I could read aloud to my 4 yr old?

TYR:

I hadn't read that far in spiral dance....now I need to check that out too.

WiseWitch:

maybe I'm thinking of Motherwit, tho...

Xori:

YES Potatoe - my daughter's been doing stuff like that - actually, since we went out one day and started relating with plants-via vibration

forestdragon:

what book is this

LadyofAvalon:

I think that it is funny that scientists just realized that plants a "feelings"

Xori:

I've done other things with my daughter relating to nature - like to be able to smell rain coming

OceanShadow:

Yes Morrigan, I think so, it's a book, you could introduce her with and later she'll grow into reading and using it herself

LadyofAvalon:

a_havve

Morrigan:

ok thankx OceanShadow! I'm looking for something like that

forestdragon:

i can smell rain coming it's great

Aziel:

how long's this class?

LadyofAvalon:

good question...

Xori:

It's little things like feeling vibrations of plants and "smelling" the air to sense the whether that really gives them a mystical sense of joy I think - not something every kid is exposed to

TYR:

until 7 az...I have to be downtown at 7:30.

Aziel:

lol

Potatoetoe:

teaching them about the seasons, and learning about how we are all stardust instills humility

OceanShadow:

exactly, the wonders of the world exist in every child

Morrigan:

lasts till 10ish Aziel

TYR:

Okay...how do you bring all this into everyday life? like cleaning their rooms and stuff?

Xori:

it comes very naturally to them I think - and they like to have others to revel about it with - especially parents

Elenya:

I think I learn more from my kids than they learn from me!

OceanShadow:

but it is important to encourage it rather than discourage it as so often is the case

forestdragon:

what is the book called, please ?

WiseWitch:

TYR - cleaning rooms is easy - respect for the environment! [g]

TYR:

Don't we all Elenya

Morrigan:

{g}

Xori:

yea right WW - I tried that - LOL

TYR:

sounds good in print WW, but when the fight starts then what?

Morrigan:

what do you do Tyr?

Nastarana:

learn to balance your energy with theirs

Azrael:

I have a question, is The Great Right anymore ritualistic than what you'd see on Television?

OceanShadow:

Mountains Meadows and Moonbeams by Mary Summer Rain

Xori:

Nastar - not an easy thing to do when it's a hormonally challenged teen {G}

TYR:

We still have the fights.. and then Daddy gets involved.. they are still just plain old kids sometimes.

Realityman:

How can kids explain their neopagan or Wiccan identity to their friends without being ridiculed? I have seen that happen to the daughter of a friend of mine back when I lived in Georgia.

WiseWitch:

Tyr, what fight [g]

Potatoetoe:

Study was emphasized, room is still a mess, went to Berkeley

Nastarana:

Have three teens myself--Celestine Prophecy really helped

WiseWitch:

Reality, memorize a macro "We see the universe as the Divine made manifest"

Xori:

What we've done (and it's worked well) is that when questions are asked, she explains things, and at the same time relates them to the questioner's questions

Xori:

This is where teaching her about other religions has come in really handy

forestdragon:

thanks ocean

TYR:

Kind of turn it around huh Xori?

LadyofAvalon:

I think one thing that is hard to do is not to spoil your child. I know that this is hard to do but I think that it is beneficial in Pagan home especially. Pagans during the learning process (which never ends) need to do much on there own and no one can be there to right wrongs in this religion. They can not simply go to confession and forget it ever happened.

Morrigan:

made a philosopher out of her eh Xori? {g}

calluna:

why do they have to clean their rooms

Realityman:

IC. I have no kids, so it doesn't relate to me. But my friend was very concerned about it. Her and her daughter had considerable tension between them as a result.

Xori:

not really turn it around - just show that what pagans believe is not really so different and therefore not so weird

OceanShadow:

Andrew and i mostly talk about how we feel about the earth, and it's energy, etc, he doesn't go into the specifics with his friends

WiseWitch:

Because parents don't like rats.

Azrael:

About the great rite, is it more ritualistic than sex you'd see on television?

TYR:

So they learn to keep their personal space in order...the Goddess has order in her world.

Potatoetoe:

Mine loves arguing with complete logic

Xori:

LOL - no Morrigan

TYR:

Besides stepping on Barbies toys in bare feet hurts!

Xori:

just giving her knowledge so things aren't so hard or embarrassing - so she doesn't have to go "I don't know" - I try to do the same with all other subjects

Morrigan:

agreed Tyr!

Morrigan:

I think that's great Xori and I plan on doing that too!

Morrigan:

I did it with my niece, while she was around

Xori:

I vacuumed up all my kid' barbie stuff - I'm glad that's over

calluna:

order comes from within

OceanShadow:

Although I do know of one girl here 13 lost her school placement because the teacher refused to teach "the little satanist!" however that is being fought legally right now

Potatoetoe:

If a witch uses both knowledge of empirical nature and intuitive nature, we should teach this to our children

Carielle:

Does anyone do any rituals designed specifically for their children either to help them learn or to mark rites of passage? I'm curious...

Morrigan:

now see, that's the sort of thing that I'm worried about OceanShadow

Xori:

I had a wonderful experience at my daughter's school over her wanting to do a report on Wicca - I was lucky, they did everything they could to work with us

TYR:

The big questions I have been having from my kids lately has been about puberty...the oldest is just starting to bud. She wants to know how that relates to the Goddess.

forestdragon:

what is this rites of passage

Nastarana:

We did rite of passage for my daughter when she entered womanhood at 12

Xori:

I did Carielle

OceanShadow:

well, the school system is never pleasant to deal with, but the law is on our side on this

Carielle:

Could you tell me about it, Xori

LadyofAvalon:

I have a question. What about sex. In these days girls (and boys) are loosing their virginity much earlier. We must teach them that the Goddess has no problem with sex because it is natural but how can we also temper that with telling them that not all people think that way and keep them from getting hurt without being hypocrites?

Xori:

We did a big giant spring cleaning of her room - she got some big boxes and painted them in designs according to the phases in her life

TYR:

That may be just what i need to Xori.

Elenya:

Tyr, get her the book "What's happening to my Body"

Realityman:

Rites of passage mean rituals symbolizing the passage from one stage in life to another, such as from childhood to womanhood or manhood. Common examples are confirmation and bar mitzva

Xori:

this is when she turned 12 and started getting out of the little girl phase

Sabre:

I have that book.

Potatoetoe:

Daughter of Potatoe here- While I was in school, teachers would discriminate against me all the time. My mother stepped in and threatened suit to prevent it happening in the future

OceanShadow:

Ahh, the Rede works well here Lady, if we teach that sex, is an action with consequences and responsibilities

Elenya:

Aye, Ocean

Xori:

so we separated things into 3 boxes - baby stuff that she wanted to save, little girl stuff that she wanted to save and that she wanted to give away, and big girl stuff to be put away or

Ankh:

and fun OE {G}

Xori:

kept in the box

Potatoetoe:

They pretty much backed off and I was allowed into the Honor's classes after she did this

melilott:

what is natural for someone of one age would not be natural for someone younger they must be old enough to take the responsibilities that come with sex lady

Morrigan:

Another tough question LadyofA. I'm going to try to teach my girls that while their body might be ready, their minds aren't

Xori:

we did a candlelight ritual to say good-bye to the baby stuff and the little girl stuff to be gotten rid of, and to welcome all the new big girl stuff to her life

Morrigan:

TK1 hold that question till after the class discussion. It's a good question, we're just in the middle of something right now

OceanShadow:

and we teach them that their bodies are sacred, and should be treated as such, celebrated but respected

Potatoetoe:

My mother talked to me openly about sex, so most of my curiosity was satisfied through her.

Morrigan:

Well said Melilott!!

Xori:

we didn't do anything elaborate like a circle or anything, just lit a candle and said a few words

OceanShadow:

and teach auto-eroticism

forestdragon:

how do i become a wiccan

Azrael:

what is auto-eroticism?

Realityman:

masturbation

Ankh:

masturbation Az

OceanShadow:

masturbation

Azrael:

ok, thanks for spelling that out for me

TYR:

Sexuality is very open in our house but their are changes in a girls body as she matures and the questions that come from that are hard for me to answer.

Azrael:

I'm becoming less ignorant by the second

Potatoetoe:

don't be scared of talking to your children. openness helped me out a great deal

Xori:

anyways, by doing this, she realized that she was in a different phase of her life - and now her room is eternally thrashed

LadyofAvalon:

May I ask a stupid question? How would you teach masturbation?

Xori:

I giggled at first Tyr

Ankh:

gently and carefully Lady

Azrael:

I don't think that's a stupid question, it's very good and i'd like to know too.

ShadE:

i wish my parents agreed with my religion

OceanShadow:

there are some very good books, combine that with frank and open discussion

Morrigan:

I think they teach themselves that Lady {g}

TYR:

We do a lot of giggling over the questions, but they get answered...its kind of fun to see daddy blush too.

Xori:

I've talked to my daughter about that but first telling her about that there's other ways to have sex than intercourse

ShadE:

{vbg}

OceanShadow:

{not always} many disabled children have to be taught and shown what is appropriate

Xori:

I've finely got over the giggling and my daughter saying "oh mom don't talk to me about that"

OceanShadow:

not a task for the timid

melilott:

most children masturbate at the infant stage you just teach them that it is a normal part of life and not a "bad" or "evil" thing

Morrigan:

true

OceanShadow:

and appropriate usage

TYR:

The only rule we have about masturbation is "not in the living room"

LadyofAvalon:

LOL

Morrigan:

agreed mel!

UltraChicken:

LOL

Potatoetoe:

The problem I have face now are adult men harassing me on the street. How do you teach kids to deal with that problem?

melilott:

and not in a public place

Morrigan:

LOL Tyr!!

Xori:

I simply got some medical books and showed my daughter the "special" places physically and told her about them - kind of scientifically, I gotta say, but I think I got it across

Realityman:

I think that there can be a danger in actually teaching it. Some people might, in our highly over-reactive times, view teaching auto-eroticism with sexual abuse of sorts.

TYR:

We try to teach them that it is a private thing, but they forget occasionally.

Morrigan:

how do you deal with it Potato?

LadyofAvalon:

definitely over reacting!

Potatoetoe:

I don't know. I'm the daughter and I'm encountering it right now. I need help!

Nastarana:

Potato, my daughter has same problem--she tries to ignore but it is scary. Mostly does not travel alone but in groups.

Xori:

oh gosh, we can even talk about it at the dinner table now (to an extent)- I think that making it a natural thing, something that people just do is important

Morrigan:

well...I ignore it Potato

OceanShadow:

Yes Reality, but it is a private thing between parent and child, and if they are old enough to need it they should be old enough to understand, both that is ok, but not something we discuss

OceanShadow:

as dinner conversation

azdvhgjkl:

look to other countries......not so repressed there.....teach different cultural ethos

Herne:

Hey Morrigan, you haven't answered my letter

Morrigan:

I haven't read it Herne

melilott:

just being able to discuss it and having information most kids can figure out the actual details of the process

Morrigan:

is that the envelope I see in the corner of my screen?

Xori:

LOL - not always, but sometimes it comes up, and we just take it as a regular conversations - see, we tend to have dinner together not just to eat, but as a kind of meeting

Realityman:

Yes. However, I think that using the word "teaching" can be confusing. Perhaps referring to as *explaining it* might be better.

Herne:

good reason, I though that you had been gone

TYR:

Okay folks....I have to head out...but you can all keep discussing this as long as you want....all I know is that I survived.

Xori:

I agree Reality

azdvhgjkl:

logging off

OceanShadow:

LOL, great class Tyr!!

Morrigan:

Thank you Tyr! Good Job and excellent topic!

Xori:

you did great Tyr

Elenya:

Thank you Tyr

Potatoetoe:

MP Tyr

Xori:

thank you tyr

Ankh:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Tyr }}}}}}}}}}}} nicely done

LadyofAvalon:

thanks tyr

Carielle:

Thank You Tyr!

Aziel:

MP Tyr

Herne:

Thank you Tyr for bring up a very important subject foe consideration

Carielle:

Tyr!

UltraChicken:

MP Tyre

Ankh:

{, unloading the smoking macro gun {G}

Morrigan:

LOL

TYR:

Your welcome everyone! It was fun.

calluna:

thank you

Realityman:

Very enjoyable. Thanks. And I showed up seemingly by "accident."

Morrigan:

tough work ain't it?!

Nastarana:

thank you

Carielle:

LOL Ankh, got a lot of use out of that, didn't you!

melilott:

good class tyr {G}

Ankh:

chatty i think i wore down my F1 key

Morrigan:

LOL

UltraChicken:

LOL

Ankh:

LOL

Herne:

ahhm the magick of coincidence

Morrigan:

I know how that feels

Realityman:

Bye all.

TYR:

MP all...gotta grab a bite to eat.. I will be back later though. Love ya all.

Ankh:

MP Tyr

Morrigan:

MP Tyr

OceanShadow:

MP Tyr and thanks

melilott:

mp tyr

Carielle:

MP Tyr