Morrigan:

MERRY MEET AND WELCOME TO WICCA 101! Tonight's class is hosted by Virago Witch. Her topic is Dark Aspects of the Goddess.

As a courtesy to our host, please keep all greetings, farewells and side conversations in IM until class is over.

Likewise, please hold all questions and comments until discussion is called for by our host.

Disrupters will be warned once by the Chat Host. If disruptive behavior persists their exclusion will be called for.

When an exclusion is called, all are asked to do so WITHOUT comment either to or about the excludee.

Witch:

::properly chastised:: Yes, dear Chatty :)

Morrigan:

In case of disaster {g} could one or two of you who plan on attending the entire class please log as back up?

oh don't take it personal Witch... it's routine {g}

SwordMaiden:

{-- logging

Morrigan:

WITH THAT, VIRAGO WITCH, YOU HAVE THE FLOOR!

melilot:

{--- logging

VIRAGOWITCH:

MM and howdy folks... . Hope everyone's Samhain went well. I'd like to make a request- Please don't ask me questions that I won't be able to answer! {g}.

melilot:

:(

VIRAGOWITCH:

OK... . let's discuss Dark aspects of the Goddess.

When it comes to the Goddess, we must remember that there is duality involved: the polarity between the death and the life, darkness and light. Whenever she appears, she embodies both poles: life within death, and death within life. Life is Her gift, which she lends, with the promise of death. Death, my dears, is inevitable. From an existential point of view, death is the only certainty of life.

Now, I prefer not to think of death as darkness/evil/oblivion. I prefer to think of death as sleep... rest between incarnations. The Goddess is Earth: the dark, nurturing mother who brings forth all life. She is the amazing powers of fertility and regeneration. To borrow a phrase from the Christians, "From womb to Tomb," all return to Her.

Many historians have written of the Goddess in her darker aspects. They call her a great and terrible Mother who demanded blood sacrifice, a bloodthirsty Queen. Let's look at this aspect. The 3rd aspect of the Goddess is the Crone- the darker phase of life which will result in death... .sacrifice... a vital element in the natural cycle. For those who live close to nature, and in harmony with nature, all things {plants, animals, stones, etc} have some level of consciousness. And the belief that all things are divine... Creations, even manifestations, of the Gods.

The "death" of a plant for the harvest, a deer in the hunt, even a cow or one of Frank Purdue's chickens in the slaughterhouse, is part of life. These "deaths" make it possible for other life to continue. Think of them as a divine sacrifice, if you will. Life waxes and life wanes. Birth and death have a proper time and place. Life is a process of constant change.

Some ancient peoples did practice ritual sacrifice. Many of them sacrificed for reasons tied into the menstrual cycle. It was believed then that all life came from the female (perish the thought that men had ANYTHING to do with making babies!) And, with all life originating from the woman, the menstrual blood was seen as powerful magic. Red has been a sacred and powerful color in many cultures. Like women, these people believed that Mother Earth needed strengthening and renewal through power life/blood; as Her blood created, her blood was "recycled" back to her. On a related note... . I have recently been reading a book that suggests ancient cultures did not practice as much ritual sacrifice as is commonly believed... More on that later!

OK... but what of the Dark Virgin? How does she tie into the Goddess? Black Isis, disguised as the Dark Virgin, still appears in Cathedrals (frequently in Europe. Saint-Victor in Marseilles, for example). This Dark Virgin (alternatively refereed to as the Dark Maiden) was revered by the Celts, who identified her with dark rocks.

FateSealer:

Dark virgin ?

VIRAGOWITCH:

Interestingly enough, black and white rocks were the object of Muslim veneration, later replaced with male and female idols: Asali {the male} and Mayel {the female}. We can recognize Isis holding the infant-God Horus in the representations of the Christian Madonna and Child. This is a symbol of purity and maternal love, an affirmation of the Virgin as the throne of wisdom. A Translation of "Isis" is "throne", a tradition reserved for the Virgin as Queen of Heaven, especially in the Middle Ages with the Cult of the Virgin. The throne is also symbolic of the lap of the Goddess. Interesting to note that so many monarchs claimed to be directly descended from divinity... Isis... who was she? Most of us know the myth of Osiris and Isis, and the striking similarities with the case of Loreena and John Wayne Bobbit {g}. History repeats itself, huh? =} Let me recap the Osiris/Isis myth... The "evil brother" Set was so jealous of Osiris that he chopped him into many pieces, which he scattered to the wind.

Red Deer:

wait a minute, Isis didn't chop up Osiris, she sewed him back together

VIRAGOWITCH:

Isis managed to recover all of the pieces, save for one, and sewed her husband back together... and buried him.

melilot:

?

Nestor:

question if I may: Virago --do you see the Persephone ( Queen of Hades) aspect ( also the dark of the moon) as a balance for the Mother of the Full Moon , the Maiden -Waxing; the Crone -Waning?

VIRAGOWITCH:

Osiris then became a god of the underworld... . Miraculously, Isis conceived a son of Osiris... interesting variation of the immaculate conception, huh?

Nestor- would you mind holding that question for a few minutes?

Nestor:

Are we not talking about the 4th aspect of the Lady?

sure, sorry

VIRAGOWITCH:

OK... Isis was most often depicted wearing cow horns, and was later identified with the Christian devil. She was also frequently depicted holding the infant-God Horus on her lap. Much like the Christian Virgin... A cult of Isis flourished for a while... It is easy to see the similarities between Isis and the Christian Virgin... and how the idea of the "dark virgin" began.

Speaking of Goddess-Cults... . Ephesus, in modern-day Turkey, boasted a splendid shrine to Artemis (who also had a cult)

melilot:

?????

VIRAGOWITCH:

According to legend, the Christian Virgin went to live at Ephesus (there is a shrine to her, as well), and the Cult of the Virgin began to flourish. Perhaps this was an attempt to downplay the importance and popularity of Artemis?

Nestor:

Artemsis --or Diana of the Ephisian temple was one of the 7 Wonders of the Ancient world!

VIRAGOWITCH:

In Rome, Diana was the protectress of the plebeians... . guardian of slaves, thieves, and outlaws. She wasn't too well liked by the Christians, as you might imagine.

Nestor:

Mary's house is less than 3 kilometer from that site

VIRAGOWITCH:

The early Church leaders believed Diana to be the sister of Lucifer... We can see how the view of pagans was changing... Then... there is another theory: that the religious ideas of ancient Crete and Greece originated in Africa. From 7000-6000 BCE the Sahara was fertile... and civilization flourished. When the fertile land dried up... where did the people go? To Greece, bringing their ideas with them? This theory is a current sore spot with many... several interesting books on this are out, as well.

Great importance had always been given the Great Goddess Mother/Queen of Africa. The "original Black Goddess" was regarded as bisexual, the instrument of her own fertility... Indeed, this was the ancient witch who carried a snake in her belly!

Nestor:

Virago --with all due respect -- please note strong objection to that theory

VIRAGOWITCH:

Again, I'd like to add that the idea of Africa being the source of Greek religion is only a theory and I'm not too sure what I think of it.

Noted, Nestor... . I'm well aware of it.

But the theory can still provide interesting speculation... .

Nestor:

indeed

VIRAGOWITCH:

OK... much of what comes to us from Great-Mother mythology is this aspect of "Terrible Mother". Many historians and poets (Graves included) are fascinated by this aspect... Any ideas why? The idea of the Terrible Dark Mother probably originated in the late middle ages... And I'm talking about the bloodthirsty idea, here. During the middle ages, the Virgin Mary was an object of reverence... awe... the idea of the Terrible Dark Mother would be her antithesis.

Red Deer:

I think that ever since the Patriarchal revolution, at least, we've been fascinated with Her, because we lost touch with the death aspect

VIRAGOWITCH:

Good point, Red Deer... .

With the advent of Christianity, women suddenly became "evil" {all of that "original sin"}

melilot:

could it have been because we could bleed and not die vw?

VIRAGOWITCH:

To diverge for a minute... at Samhain, we chose to honor those who died in the witch hunts... Meli- have been reading a book on that lately, actually. Estimates vary, but between the 15th and 18th centuries, between 1 million and 9 million people died... charged with being witches. Over 80% were women. The tide had turned... no longer was the Great Terrible Dark mother the bloodthirsty sacrificer... She had passed that role to others. I'd be interested in hearing some other ideas on why the Dark aspects of the Goddess are fascinating to many of us... Anyone have any thoughts?

Nestor:

Virago --may I return to my Fourth Aspect concept

VIRAGOWITCH:

please do, Nestor.

VIRAGOWITCH:

{I'm done babbling}

could you repeat the question, please?

Nestor:

well if you assign each of the quarterpoint to a phase

VIRAGOWITCH:

::opening the floor to discussion::

Nestor:

the 4th come to the North -- the tradition place of wisdom

Witch:

My thought is that because we always picture a mother as nurturer not as disciplinarian or "blood-thirsty"... .the giver of life... .not the taker

Nestor:

and also the underworld the tradition color of black is assigned there also

VIRAGOWITCH:

aye... .

Nestor:

if you can see that in many traditions the new initiate is brought into the Circle in the NE then that make sense

melilot:

cause we all have those feelings they are normal

Nestor:

ask a point of rebirth

Meridyth:

Or perhaps the dark goddess is that deep part of us that would like to come out... but is reserved?? deep even

WiseWitch:

I expect we find the Dark aspect fascinating because to see the Goddess as only "Light and Love" makes her pretty darn unbalanced.

melilot:

PMS is one of the dark aspects of the goddess

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL Meli... I was reading a book on that earlier this month.

Red Deer:

AYE, WW!!!

Nestor:

--that is just a little idea that people might enjoy working over in their heads and understanding their ritual better

VIRAGOWITCH:

And I'd agree, WW... .

Morrigan:

unbalanced, yes I agree with you WW

Red Deer:

{--- has a question... .

melilot:

we can all be sweet as sugar but the WHAM it hits you can't get away from the dark aspects

VIRAGOWITCH:

yes?

and not to knock anyone... . but some people out there manage to ignore the darker aspects... and focus on light and love... which is nice, but unbalanced.

Meridyth:

{-----Windaly {eg}

Morrigan:

well, I think that the dark aspects strengthen us, make us face our fears

PAniteowl:

{... . . has a comment

Red Deer:

OK - earlier, you made a comment I've often heard... . something like "heaven forbid men should have anything to do with making babies"

VIRAGOWITCH:

yes owl?

NiteChild:

come now dears is not the goddess beyond pms?

melilot:

but vw how can I deny a part of myself and still remain whole?

Red Deer:

many seem to think that in relatively recent (past 8000 years) times, we didn't know about sex = babies... .

KelticMist:

yes, I agree with melilot, are there not some times, when one should get angry?

melilot:

yea vw I wanna know what men do have to do with making babies?

PAniteowl:

where did we get the idea that for a female to be warlike or vengeful, it was "dark"???... . Any woman here who has never been enraged, please speak up?????

Red Deer:

How can anyone put that forward, when we've practiced animal husbandry for at LEAST 12000 years?

VIRAGOWITCH:

Meli- beats me... . according to the book I was reading, women today do themselves a terrible disservice by not allowing themselves to get angry, etc.

WiseWitch:

Nite - As above, so below - and, conversely, as below, so above... .

melilot:

I would never allow myself to be that mean to me

VIRAGOWITCH:

PA- I think it came from Early Christianity... . Not too sure on that one.

PAniteowl:

heheheh

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL Meli... .

PAniteowl:

no VW... . It came before that... . some of the Hebraic tribes started that one {G}

KelticMist:

true VW, then people, mostly our family, especially, our significant other, LOL, think they can do anything, if we never get angry, there would be no guidelines,

Red Deer:

not to mention, of course, all the myths in which the Gods father children

melilot:

and red they would also inoculate the animals for disease but yet had no idea to do the same for themselves

VIRAGOWITCH:

true, Red... . but it is the female who goes through the miracle of pregnancy.

And the menstrual cycle... . some cultures have male-initiation rites that mimic the menstrual cycle.

Red Deer:

not denying that, VW, I'm addressing the often stated concept that folk didn't know we were involved in CAUSING that pregnancy

melilot:

but the male does help in the miracle of conception we shall give the male his just due

PAniteowl:

whoa... VW... don't call it a miracle... 'tis just the natural way... no mystery at all IMHO... and been there, done that, more than a couple of times!!

Meridyth:

Don't you think that comes from the Victorian era... .women should be soft and demure... .do as their husbands fathers said to be angry was just unheard of

VIRAGOWITCH:

Red- was just making a joke there.

Morrigan:

Have to agree with you there PA!

melilot:

goes further back than that Meridyth way further back

Red Deer:

yup... . conception is NOT the miracle... . orgasm is

Witch:

LOL, Red

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL Red---

WiseWitch:

Aye, RD!

KelticMist:

LOL Red

melilot:

no orgasm is required for the man to LIVE threw the conception {EG}

WiseWitch:

LOL Meli

PAniteowl:

RD... don't forget... it was only recently that Paternity became the deciding factor in a child's lineage... . they always knew the maternal line {G}

Red Deer:

are you sure meli?

VIRAGOWITCH:

Meli! {vbg}

melilot:

multiple orgasms and he gets a treat

Thorsson:

';'{----confused, not accustomed to chatting during school, would get detention or something

Nestor:

an once again the wisdom of seeing the balance of both part of nature (male and female) being NECESSARY to work together to create and cause the Universe to move!

Red Deer:

no argument there either, PA... . I just think people over generalize about what we did or didn't know about paternity

melilot:

forgot my comma after no red {G}

Witch:

Agreed wholeheartedly, Nestor!!

VIRAGOWITCH:

aye... also agree.

PAniteowl:

Well, Red... . it was still in this century that medical journals had some strange reasoning on women {G}

melilot:

what they did or didn't know red we shall never truly know we only have what journals and texts were found just what did the "uneducated" really know back then

VIRAGOWITCH:

::hoping this doesn't turn into a discussion on sexism or something::

Witch:

LOL, VW! :)

SwordMaiden:

:}

melilot:

a lot of our present day uneducated don't know how pregnancy occurs

Red Deer:

well, we can certainly look to societies with a similar level of science - which do still exist... . and most are quite aware of paternity

VIRAGOWITCH:

how true, Meli... .

Nestor:

I am hoping that we as pagan at least can bypass or control the - male vs female conflicts as to which is more important -- they BOTH are -- lets work together --neither trying to control but rather

Nestor:

celebrate and enjoy the difference and the roles of each

Red Deer:

but they know that sex causes it - whether they understand the mechanics or not... . kinda like driving a car, you don't have to understand internal combustion engines, to know what happens

VIRAGOWITCH:

and enjoy the celebrating {g}

PAniteowl:

VW... it is a sexism thing... . the terminology of "Dark Goddess" was not ours... it was from the Xian perspective... we did not term it as an adversarial position, but the other side of the scale

PAniteowl:

scale

Red Deer:

when you turn the key and put the pedal to the medal

melilot:

at age 12 50% of females will believe that they can get preggers by sitting on a toilet seat a male has set on and this is 1996

Witch:

Gee, Nestor... .I agree again! ;)

VIRAGOWITCH:

Owl- meant the sexism remark as to pregnancy... .

Thorsson:

Huh, Mel?????

VIRAGOWITCH:

quite true, Meli.

PAniteowl:

oh... nevermind {G}

Red Deer:

that stat certainly isn't true in my part of the country, sis

WiseWitch:

Whoa - PA - I think that the "dark" was always there, but "dark" didn't mean negative originally.

Red Deer:

agree, WW

VIRAGOWITCH:

I'd agree with WW... . It's a matter of PR.

melilot:

they get to see animals actually breed in your part red in my part they are lucky if they can find an animal

PAniteowl:

yes, WW... that was the point I was going for, though not very well, I see {G}

Red Deer:

we tend to always think that light = good and dark = evil

in a balanced view, light and dark are light and dark... . no comment on good or evil

Nestor:

we should stop blaming the "patricachy" for this and "the martirachy" is so pure -- let's deal with the real world and work together to understand the ancient culture and see if we can't build something

PAniteowl:

yep, Red...

VIRAGOWITCH:

Nestor- I'm not a fan of patriarchy OR matriarchy... .

Nestor:

that work because we do it toghter out of resepct and love and understanding

PAniteowl:

hmmm... 'tis difficult Nes, but you are right

Thorsson:

Question: so to be in balance, one must do something good for every evil and something evil for every good? okay I do not like the terms good/evil either but... .

PAniteowl:

{{{{{{ me hates it when Nestor is always right {G}

melilot:

I'm sorry but most women in a "patricachy" didn't get there without their consent otherwise you would see them working to end it as women today do

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL Owl... .

Witch:

::sits next to Nestor since he's saying all my thoughts:: :)

WiseWitch:

No, Thor, think of it more as all live feeding on death.

PAniteowl:

I agree with Meli on that one!!

VIRAGOWITCH:

aye... I also... .

did my screen freeze up?

I guess not {g}

PAniteowl:

Thorsson, it is not a matter of trying to take balancing actions, it is a matter of being in balance... . a different concept altogether

melilot:

how can I say women in ancient Greece or Rome were unhappy with the way things were

Nestor:

each party male and female has both roles which they can share and both have roles which they alone can fulfill, let deal with reality and work to enjoying each other and accepting the beauty of the differences and the power of the similarities

SwordMaiden:

I life is in constant balance it seems, every time something goes right, something goes wrong

PAniteowl:

agree with Nes, again {G} drat!!

VIRAGOWITCH:

Sword Maiden... well, every time someone wins a ball game, someone else has to loose... .

PAniteowl:

yes, VW... . but some of us don't even like to play competitively {G}

Nestor:

well it depends on the game being played --and how the rules are set up

PAniteowl:

when I am in competition, I play to win... . but most of my "playing" is teamwork {G}

Morrigan:

you have to look at it in terms of the food chain, simple, but it's true. For one to survive another must perish. It is a delicate balance that can be disrupted if messed with

Nestor:

yes competition is great and we need more of it in a productive and controlled fashion --but we also need games and ideas where we both have a win/win

VIRAGOWITCH:

exactly, Chatty

PAniteowl:

agreed Nes... . a competition with a goal to achieve something that would benefit all... . that I can get my teeth into {G}

Thorsson:

so, is vegetarianism any better that carnivorism?

Red Deer:

{--- believes that the "gift" of humanity is that we have the potential to TRANSCEND food-chain thinking

melilot:

your killing a living thing thor

PAniteowl:

no, Thor... veggie is a personal choice

WiseWitch:

No, Thor - still life feeding on death.

VIRAGOWITCH:

Well... I don't like the taste of meat, which is why I'm a veggie. but veggies still have to die in order that I may eat.

Thorsson:

yeah that is what I thought, my veg friend does not agree

Red Deer:

{--- unapologetically LOVES the taste of meat

VIRAGOWITCH:

'tis OK, Red.

Nestor:

LOL -- begin an ex-middle linebacker I know that some time you have to compete a very primitive levels to win ( or even survive) but then on the other hand if you wish to play a symphony then it takes tea

SwordMaiden:

me too

Thorsson:

verge of veg

SwordMaiden:

meat eater I mean

PAniteowl:

we who see the soul of a tree, feel just as much remorse at the cutting of the plant, as we do the killing of the stag {sorry RD}

Nestor:

work and timing --and both are necessary to the well rounded human

Red Deer:

why, PA... . I agree totally

WiseWitch:

{---- already plenty round, Nestor

PAniteowl:

{{{{ personally, the difference between the sexes is strictly a matter of "timing" {VBG}

Blood seeker:

anything more on Dark Goddesses?

Red Deer:

yeah, but sometimes our roles get reversed, PA

Nestor:

could you imaging trying to compete in a sailboat race if you could work as a team and with a single purpose --but yet have the fire within to do your best

PAniteowl:

{G} yep, RD... .

VIRAGOWITCH:

Only about a whole bookcase {g}

Morrigan:

yes, any parting remarks or questions about the dark aspects of the Goddess?

PAniteowl:

VW... just a comment

Morrigan:

parting that is. {g}

SwordMaiden:

I have three books on the dark goddesses

VIRAGOWITCH:

yes?

Nestor:

Virago --did you read John Matthews work on dark goddesses --he has some interesting points

PAniteowl:

the Tamarin Goddess seems to have been the start of the Hecate legend

VIRAGOWITCH:

Nestor- I have... .

PAniteowl:

It was assimilated by both Greek & Roman Pantheons... the confusion over Hecate is the aspect of light and dark behavior. it was only later that it became a negative aspect

Nestor:

could you post a bibliography (annotated) on the different sources you used Virago --I would enjoy that and think it would be helpful for all to go on from this point

PAniteowl:

such is the way of most of the Pantheonic beings

VIRAGOWITCH:

Nestor- will do... . will get that on the BB tonight, OK?

Red Deer:

but, think of it in terms of our own interactions with our own BIOLOGICAL mothers... .

Nestor:

thank you very much

Red Deer:

none were all light, nor all dark... .

WiseWitch:

RD - do I HAVE to??????

Red Deer:

we love the light mother, and are fiercely fascinated with the dark one

SwordMaiden:

biological mothers... .uh, um, I rather not... {EG}

SwordMaiden:

:{

Morrigan:

fascinated? I'm rather afraid of my mothers dark aspects {g}

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL Chatty

Morrigan:

in fact, I avoid them at all costs

PAniteowl:

hmmmm... I liked my mom... and my gram... . and the women of my ancestory... . even with all their warts {G}

Red Deer:

and, for us MALES, it was the DARK one who slept with our fathers - because at that point they were denying US their attention

SwordMaiden:

frankly, I don't know my biological mother very well

Morrigan:

hmmmmm

VIRAGOWITCH:

Freudian alert! Freudian alert! {vbg}

Morrigan:

LOL snakes!! I see snakes!

Red Deer:

Sometimes a cigar is more than just a cigar, Chattie... . sometimes it's a blatant hard-on

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL

Nestor:

well Dr Freud -- I would suggest that perhaps a very few sample of women in Vienna is insufficient to base a general theory of psychology on

PAniteowl:

whoops {blush}

VIRAGOWITCH:

Speaking of hard-ons... . how's the attempt to stop smoking? {remember... sometimes a cigar is just a cigar} ROTFLOL!

Red Deer:

Freud certainly made PLENTY of mistakes, but he got a lot right too

haven't had one since Samhain (Blessed Be)

VIRAGOWITCH:

=}

Nestor:

yes some RD -- but I would suggest that Jung was a wide scope and more to the depth of what manifests in the world

melilot:

and sometimes a blatant hardon is just a cigar {G}

PAniteowl:

??? a smoke or a hard on, RD {G}

WiseWitch:

Ciggie or hard on, RD?

Red Deer:

and am in ACUTE NICTOTINE WITHDRAWAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PAniteowl:

heheheheheheh

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL WW!!!!!!!! {-- falling off her chair

Red Deer:

unless you're studying hysterical women, Nestor

Nestor:

good luck RD --I know you can do it -- I quit smoking 5 years ago -- and I will believe it has saved my life

Red Deer:

well, anyone who knows me knows the answer to that one, WW

VIRAGOWITCH:

{- not going to say a thing... .

VIRAGOWITCH:

and good for you, Nestor!

PAniteowl:

good move... VW {G}

VIRAGOWITCH:

::blushing:: Remind Loki of that for me, OK?

Red Deer:

Thanks for a great class, VW

PAniteowl:

Thanks VW... I really enjoyed it {G}

VIRAGOWITCH:

my pleasure... . apologies for not going into greater depth... . but this is Wicca101... . not a graduate level class {g}

Nestor:

and Virago Witch thank you for handling such a complex and difficult topic with grace and style

PAniteowl:

{G}

Morrigan: