Nestor:

is there a Wicca101 topic tonight?

IrishGypsy:

I think not

Nestor:

Well what about responsible pagan teaching techniques and methods of research?

ViragoWitch:

Y'all want to give it 5 minutes and see if a teacher shows up, and if not, have an open forum on responsible pagan teaching methods, etc?

Nestor:

That was a question for everyone -- anyone want to talk about that topic - or is their another one planned?

ViragoWitch:

Nestor- I don't think we have a topic/teacher this week

Red Deer:

are we expecting a teach to show, VW?

ViragoWitch:

I don't think so, RD... I don't have anyone written in the schedule.

IrishGypsy:

Maybe Nestor can volunteer :}

melilot:

well i could teach a class on the ritual uses of spam {EG}

ViragoWitch:

LOL...

Nestor:

Actually we can all volunteer - since we are all hopefully students and teachers (even of just ourselves) and have to be responsible with what we teach and learn

ViragoWitch:

Ok... my clock says 9:11 and we've got no chat host and no teacher. Y'all up for an open forum?

Nestor:

sure sounds good to me VW

Red Deer:

I'm usually up for just about anything, VW

Kocia:

I am, Virago.

ViragoWitch:

And is anyone interested in logging/posting? There's no way I'll be able to edit/post the logs this week...

ViragoWitch:

Me too, RD!

PAniteowl:

VW... what are we talking about tonite?

Elenya:

{----logging

ViragoWitch:

thanks, El

Red Deer:

{--- can log but no promises about posting

Elenya:

I'll even post

ViragoWitch:

{{{{{{{{El}}}}}} I love you

Elenya:

the felines are mutual, VW {g}

ViragoWitch:

ok... shall we start, then? Nestor had suggested a discussion on repsonsible pagan teaching methods, etc

Nestor:

VW -- it should be responsible teaching method and responsible studying techniques - for the two are inseparable

ViragoWitch:

Works for me, Nestor.

Nestor:

Because the best teachers are really still just students with a little more experience

ViragoWitch:

I'll agree, Nestor. "Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn"

celine:

Nestor is so wise

Red Deer:

agreed thrice over, Nestor

Kocia:

Who here teaches formally?

Nestor:

No celine - just been around for a while - got an autograph of Homer's 1st edition of the Iliad

celine:

{G}

Red Deer:

and the best students usually educate their teachers

Nestor:

that too Red Deer

Red Deer:

please define formally Kocia...

Nestor:

because students asking questions often make you rethink your positions and see a new angle on the subject

Red Deer:

{--- am not a "Teacher" but a nurse specializing in, among other things, health education for students & patients

ViragoWitch:

and forces you to have an even deeper understanding of them. Understanding something is one thing, but understanding it well enough to explain to others, clearly, is something else.

Kocia:

Define "formally" - offering classes, leading discussions, stuff like that.

ViragoWitch:

{-- teaches dance, does that count? {g}

Nestor:

sure Virago -- it is all a Universal dance

Red Deer:

I do that a lot here, and at work

PAniteowl:

Kocia... yep... I do a bit of that {G}

Kocia:

Sure, VW - I'm just curious, not trying to measure anybody's worth artificially.

IrishGypsy:

Nice thought nestor

ViragoWitch:

and then... I've taught self defense before. {g}

IrishGypsy:

Don't we all teach in some way?

Elenya:

Aye, Irish, we do

ViragoWitch:

Agreed, Irish

Red Deer:

I sure hope so Irish

Nestor:

Yes Irish we all do -- that is why this is an important topic for every pagan

PAniteowl:

Ok... Lets get this ball rolling

IrishGypsy:

Aye

ViragoWitch:

go for it, Owl

PAniteowl:

Let's talk about teaching the Pagan pathway

Red Deer:

What do folk think is a teacher's (especially a Wiccan teacher's) greatest responsibility?

Lady jezabel:

sounded like PA might have one

Nestor:

We teach not only each other -- but we also teach the rest of "society" what a pagan or wiccan is -- and by our actions they get to know us

PAniteowl:

true Nestor

IrishGypsy:

I can really relate to that at this moment Nestor.

Cloudburst:

I'm up for talking about teaching

Lady jezabel:

Red being a teacher i think its to teach responsibilty and respect for magic

Nestor:

RD -- perhaps to live what they are teaching

PAniteowl:

Teach by example

Cloudburst:

dang tootin'

melilot:

the only way i can teach someone what a pagan is by living my life

ViragoWitch:

very good point, Meli

IrishGypsy:

agreed meli

PAniteowl:

Lady Jez... before we teach magic, we should teach the pathways

IrishGypsy:

We aren't the awful people some think we may be.

Lady jezabel:

to teach paganism is hard for many are born knowing it and being pagan

IrishGypsy:

In fact, I think many of us act more "christian" than the true Xtians!

Lady jezabel:

true PA

Nestor:

One of the things I have found is you say more by being a contributing member of your community and a good family member than by running a course to teach "Paganism"

PAniteowl:

No Gypsy, we follow the same path, the Xians took our paths from us and renamed it

Lady jezabel:

But part of the path way is knowing the relationship of magic in our world and belief

IrishGypsy:

Aye Pa

Red Deer:

I think a teachers greatest responsibility - REGARDLESS of their subject matter - is to teach the student to study independently, question EVERYthing and THINK FOR THEMSELVES

Elenya:

Aye, RD

Cloudburst:

YES!!!

Aziel:

Ouch... I'm feeling alot of Christian negativity here...

PAniteowl:

Yep, Red

Nestor:

agreed Red Deer

Kocia:

Don't be scared, Aziel - we get a little worked up sometimes.

IrishGypsy:

Not meant to be, Az... just a point that pagans tend to care alot about the world, nature, other people, etc.

Aziel:

Good point, Red.

ViragoWitch:

I'd agree, RD

melilot:

i think it is the path of human kind not a religious teaching most start out life with the feeling that this is the proper thing to do they change as the world changes them

celine:

to people who teach others that being a pagan is wrong, there is a lot of hostility

Red Deer:

in other words, to help shape a real learner - not someone who buys whatever they're taught hook line &sinker

Nestor:

you can suggest that they read or do something but part of the "responsibility" of the student is to think about what has been given or said

Cloudburst:

RD, I have the best "surpassed by students" experiences when they do exactly that and their independent thinking takes them on beyond

PAniteowl:

For instance... I am doing a workshop on the Craft for a Woman's Conference in April... I don't think I am teaching, but I am offering info for them to do their own research

Aziel:

But,to counter that, celine, to teach pagans that Christianity is wrong, and that they "stole" everything, isn't very civil, either.

melilot:

no teacher can tell a student how to feel that is where some newbies run into problems

IrishGypsy:

Can you tell us where that will be PA? Love to go

SylverHare:

We are not going to diss Xians tonight are we, I have had a wonderful conversation with a Pentacostal gentleman this week and I'm not feeling particularly in favor of taking away from that with a bunch of negativity

melilot:

aziel it's history it's fact

ViragoWitch:

Which conference, PA?

PAniteowl:

Bloomsburg University, Gypsy ...

Cloudburst:

It's where a lot of teachers run into problems, too, meli{G}

IrishGypsy:

Close by, can you IM the date?

NESTOR:

Aziel, I would agree that the Christians did not steal everything (thank the Gods) but they should be aware that they did quite a bit of borrowing

PAniteowl:

April 5th, Gyp... 17 Annual Women's Conference

Red Deer:

however, meli, human history is a fact... ALL religions borrow from those that preceed them - 'tis not only Christianity

IrishGypsy:

{--there with bells on

Red Deer:

I think we should take it as a compliment to the richness of the Pagan paths at the time Christianity emerged

wish I could come PA

PAniteowl:

me too, RD {G}

melilot:

i think we worry too much where it came from instead of working it into our daily life sometimes

IrishGypsy:

Aye Meli

PAniteowl:

agree, Meli

Kocia:

For me the most exciting part of teaching is watching someone who was very scared of Wicca/Paganism look relieved when they find out that Wicca is practiced by kind, loving people . . .

Nestor:

One of the responsiblities of pagan teachers is that they take the time to go back and do their research and learn what the great "pagan" civilizations were really like (both the good and the bad) and

Red Deer:

aye Kocia

Kocia:

rather than scary blood-drinkers or God-knows-what.

Nestor:

guide people into seeing and examining their own cultural heritage

PAniteowl:

Well Nes, sometimes we get so caught up in the past, we forget to teach that this is an evolving and viable religion of today

Red Deer:

definitely Nestor... none of this we're all good and they're all bad stuff

melilot:

i think the best thing a teacher can ever do is to cause the mind to open and look at all the different aspects of anything

Elenya:

Definitely, Meli

PAniteowl:

Our classes should be more of the paths today, rather than an anthropological discussion of a "used to be"... IMHO

Nestor:

a major point of paganism is that it is NOT barbarianism and that it is a live growing and creative group of religions which while solidly rooted in the past has meaning and adpations for today living

Cloudburst:

IMHO too, PA. We get caught up in anthro issues too much

Red Deer:

I think that both are important... don't think we can fully grasp what we are today and how we got here without understanding what used to be

PAniteowl:

I'm not dissing the history, Nes... but we need to stress what's happening NOW

ViragoWitch:

While it is important to study and remember the past, we must also focus on the present and future.

Elenya:

But history is important too, PA. I need to see were we've been in order to see where we're going

Red Deer:

don't wanna be recreating the Wheel {g}

Nestor:

the history and antho is extremely important as a guide for understanding but it must be done in conjuction with modern developments

IrishGypsy:

Anyone care to venture from here assuming that we know where we've been... and look at where we are going?

PAniteowl:

Sure, El... but what we are today is so different from the stages of the past, we need to identify the path within the context of the modern world

Cloudburst:

{G} RD

Red Deer:

(though I wouldn't mind the opportunity to try {VBEG})

Kocia:

Amen to the past! Without it we are rootless - look at white American civilization!

NightCraft:

past mistakes need not be repeated either

Elenya:

Aye, PA, I can see that too

ViragoWitch:

the wheel... the wheel... hmm, where have i heard that term before? {g}

Nestor:

true Kocia and NightCraft

Red Deer:

PA - what WE are is no different at all, only the world we live in has changed so massively

Cloudburst:

Where roots come from is partly past, but what affects my present practice more, Greek myths or what's happening in my garden?

PAniteowl:

The old truths remain, but we have to weave it over the world we know now

Red Deer:

{--- my garden, with mythology running a CLOSE second

Cloudburst:

The changes bear accounting for, though; there are valid magickal uses for microwaves{G}

SylverHare:

not necessarily just Pagan past though, for instance I think modern Pagans could learn some lessons from the Council of Niceae that could apply to Wicca today

Nestor:

Cloudburst -- what is happening in your garden is also being told in the greek myths

PAniteowl:

yes, Cloud... bringing it home is what I'm talking about

Cloudburst:

Absolutely, Nestor, but if I only pay attention to one of the above, I'm not doing the whole thing

Red Deer:

aye, we learn about our gardens (physical, psychic and spiritual) from the myths - from what our forebearers understood of nature

PAniteowl:

yes, RD

Nestor:

totally agree cloudburst

Cloudburst:

and then we re-understand it, or we're doing anthropology

Red Deer:

AYE CLoud

PAniteowl:

I don't need to go to Stonehenge to respect the Solstice, I go to my own back yard... or State Park {G}

Elenya:

{g} LOL, PA

Cloudburst:

Yeah, we know about your state parks{G}

Red Deer:

On the other hand, to experience a solstice in Stonehenge would be delicious

melilot:

i think they all went to stonehenge for the company and the party afterwards

IrishGypsy:

Agreed

ViragoWitch:

Anyone up for a trip to Stonehenge?

PAniteowl:

The God & Goddess are not only in the Celtic Isles, or in the Greek Parthenon... they are here, now!!

Elenya:

But no more meaningful, RD

IrishGypsy:

{---aye

NightCraft:

yes, but Stonehenge is a place of converging powers

Nestor:

but PA when you ADD Stongehenge and what it shows us - to what you are seeing in your stateparks - then you find new insights and deep enrichment

Shadow Gypsy:

I am Virago

Xasha:

ill go!

melilot:

gee i think i might make it

SylverHare:

you payin VW?{G}

Red Deer:

{--- hoping to spend next Samhain there!

NightCraft:

the state park isn't

Cloudburst:

If I think I HAVE to go to Stonehenge, I'm missing the present. OTOH, I'd really LIKE to... when do we leave?

Red Deer:

Agreed, {{{El}}}

Elenya:

what year we aiming for this time?

melilot:

lets try for 2002

Red Deer:

agreed, Cloud

PAniteowl:

sure, Nes... when I know that the elders practiced in the same way, in a different place, it helps put the rituals in perspective right here and now

Xasha:

is everyone invited, and are you serious?

ViragoWitch:

sure... hopefully i'll be done with grad school by then and will have a real job

Cloudburst:

Samhain 2002, Stonehenge, it's in my organizer{G}

NightCraft:

unfortunately most of us can't afford to make a pilgramage to Europe

Nestor:

well would love to get you all on a "pagan's trip" to greece and rome

melilot:

it is now law cloud it is in the "organizer" {G}

ViragoWitch:

I'll go, Nestor, if you want to pay {g}

PAniteowl:

ahhh... could you just see all of us converging on Stonehenge at the same time?? HOOT!!!

IrishGypsy:

{---put in daytime, meself

melilot:

2010 nestor

IrishGypsy:

There will probably be a big celebration there on New Years 2000, no?

melilot:

gee pa i don't think we'd have any problems with the local folk or the law {EG}

ViragoWitch:

LOL, Meli-of course not! Especially not if I'm around {eg}

SylverHare:

The bummer part is, we wouldnt be able to get inside, just have to use that silly walk they put up,

PAniteowl:

{G}

Nestor:

perhaps by 2010 we will have the infrasture in place to have them allow us to utilize the ancient sites for our rituals.

NightCraft:

with my luck the sun would burn out in 2009!

IrishGypsy:

Nice thought Nestor

PAniteowl:

heheh NC

Nestor:

working on it Irish

SylverHare:

we'd have a great view of the stars then Night

NightCraft:

that is a good point

NightCraft:

but, we'd all be popcicles

melilot:

when the creators give you lemons night you just have to learn how to make lemonade

PAniteowl:

OK... now about teaching the pagan paths ????

Kocia:

We seem to wander from the discussion so easily, PA!

melilot:

well there are very few ways for a person to learn except from books there should be more hands on than there is

Red Deer:

right now we're banned from the henge for ritual days, Nestor...

NightCraft:

yes back to the pagan paths,,,,,,,,

Red Deer:

I do understand that a number of Scots groups use the "lesser" henges though

ViragoWitch:

Ok then... we'll just have to build our own henge! Anyone have a large enough backyard?

NightCraft:

{---------i do

Stacie:

I have a huge front yard

SylverHare:

Callanish is still open to Ritual

Nestor:

has anyone read Jean Houstons "The Hero and the Goddess" -- where she takes the Odyseey and makes it into a personal spiritual journey while being grounded in Homers work?

melilot:

not i vw but i'll be happy to inspect the stones

PAniteowl:

where is that Hare?

ViragoWitch:

Sure have, Nestor.

melilot:

i've started it nestor

NightCraft:

nope

Nestor:

you see both can add to our understanding

SylverHare:

actually from the pictures callanish might be more eyecatching too, its in southern scotland

Cloudburst:

Sounds like a good one Nestor - currently available?

PAniteowl:

near the border towns Hare?

SylverHare:

over on the west coast, below the Forth I believe Pa

Nestor:

yes it is Cloudburst

Cloudburst:

thanx

PAniteowl:

ah, ok Hare, thanks

ViragoWitch:

so much for an open forum, huh?

Nestor:

it is out by Ballantine Books

Nestor:

isbn 0-345-36567-4

Red Deer:

I'll have to start researching Hare... perhaps that's where i might find a group to join next Samhain.

Cloudburst:

Thanx again, Nestor - love those isbn's

SylverHare:

there should be a couple of groups to find there RD

PAniteowl:

Sabbats, Esbats and Isbn's {G}

Red Deer:

LOL pa

Nestor:

in addition John Matthews has one for the Celtic path called "Underworld Initiaiton" which is very meaningful based of Celtic mythos

Cloudburst:

Wow, PA, another magick "3"

ViragoWitch:

Ok, I've got a quickie. What about the whole issue of charging $$$ for teaching?

ViragoWitch:

I got into a little argument with a friend about this, last month.

Cloudburst:

Oooh, VW, is that a quickie?

PAniteowl:

Some classes are free VW... some have fees attached, depends upon the organizers

ViragoWitch:

Compared to some questions I could have asked, yes

Cloudburst:

{--very uncomfortable with charging, except the

SORRY, MISSING TEXT HERE - GLITCH IN LOG

melilot:

but cloud you teach who? strangers or people you've come to know

PAniteowl:

That is part of pathworking, but an open conference, or workshop, is a different matter... and fees are charged by the organizers

Elenya:

Aye, PA

Red Deer:

agreed cloud, not for assisting someone along in their path in a continuing way

Cloudburst:

An open intro for strangers, I suspect I could charge for{G}

Red Deer:

aye PA

PAniteowl:

sometimes, the presenters are voluntary, but the organization realizes some profit

ViragoWitch:

LOL, Cloud

paper plato:

maybe door-to-door wicca teaching... like amway

PAniteowl:

Aye Cloud {G}... wannabees or wanna sees should pay the price! {G}

Red Deer:

So, when do we start charging for Wicca 101 classes (and how do we get reimbursed?) - {VVVBEG}

Cloudburst:

Meli, I do mentoring at about a 500 level at least recently - definitely people I know

ViragoWitch:

Checks payable to V-I-R-A-G-O...

PAniteowl:

hehehehe... RD... good luck!!

PAniteowl:

dial 1-900-Wicca101

Cloudburst:

Ouch, PA{G}

Elenya:

hehehe

Red Deer:

now there's a thought, PA

melilot:

hey pa that's not a bad idea for the what is wicca's and also to raise funds for the promotion of wicca

Nestor:

New Question now that we have talked a bit about the responsiblity and ethics of the teachers: What are the responsiblity and ethical commitments of the "student" ?????

Red Deer:

TO ASK QUESTIONS!!!

SylverHare:

Frankly, any teenybopper looking to catch a hunk by magic deserves to shell out the 15 bucks it takes to learn that such things come with a far heavier price

Red Deer:

HARD ONES

PAniteowl:

Oh No... I think Pandora's Box just flew open {gasp}

Red Deer:

aye hare

Cloudburst:

First commitment: be serious about spirituality

Cloudburst:

Second: RD got it in first{G}

PAniteowl:

aye Cloud

Red Deer:

third maintain a sense of humor even while being serious

Nestor:

yes I would agree on that one Red -- the hard questions and Cloudburst yours is critial to even getting started

Cloudburst:

Dang tootin', RD

Nestor:

yes have a sense of humor -- and realize that the "teachers" are humans too

Cloudburst:

Meli, the Q's that make ME think - if I'm not having to learn something, the student isn't getting what they came for either

PAniteowl:

well, look what happens with the big gatherings... how much do they charge now?

melilot:

question? who here would be interested in participating as a teacher at a weekend seminar for just your travel expenses and room and board?

Cloudburst:

Do you mean the Pagan-run ones, or the y'know "seminars"?

Red Deer:

ME!!!!

PAniteowl:

can I stay at your house Mel??? ME ME ME

Cloudburst:

The one I go to hasn't raised prices in a while, even with a landfund going on

ViragoWitch:

I would.

Red Deer:

I would do LOTS of teaching for travel, room and board

melilot:

heheheh no we pick a GOOD hotel pa

ViragoWitch:

LOL, Meli- how about the Ritz? {g}

melilot:

because for once i was serious about it

Elenya:

Is that with or without the T-Shirt, PA?

PAniteowl:

hehehe... k, meli... that'll work!!

Cloudburst:

Meli, I would

PAniteowl:

LOL El... I want the T shirt!! {G}

Cloudburst:

{---is extremely schedule bound, however

melilot:

i have friends who set up sci fi con's i think we could do the same thing for a teaching seminar with less expense

Elenya:

That will definitely cost ya extra, PA

PAniteowl:

Meli... remember the psychic fair? 15 to get in the door...

melilot:

yep pa what do you think made me think of it {G}

PAniteowl:

that wasn't an exhorbitant amount, and most of the participants paid a table fee!!

paper plato:

heard about channeling seminar... two day event... big $$

PAniteowl:

What do you think got the Renfaires started Mel?? {g}

melilot:

most con's charge 30-50 dollars for the weekend that would cover expenses if we had enough to sign up with a year planning i don't think it would be a problem

melilot:

LOL i thought it was the ren's pa {EG}

PAniteowl:

EG

ViragoWitch:

Last convention I was at wasn't a pagan one, actually was $150/participant for the weekend. However, I was one of the presenters, so I didn't have to pay.

Nestor:

folks what do you think about "merchants" to charge large fees of "specially charged" candles and other ritual tools?

PAniteowl:

I think it sux Nes

Cloudburst:

Nestor, you've hit on one of my pet peeves there

Red Deer:

I think it sux to charge any fees for them Nes...

ViragoWitch:

Well said, Owl {g}

Nestor:

do we have a duty to speak out on it?

SylverHare:

Isn't that the diff between a Wiccan forum and a New Age one, one cost 50 the other 500?

PAniteowl:

But I would do a candle workshop for much less {G}

melilot:

i think there is a market there that they are filling the give me a spell crowd too

Red Deer:

Such items should either be made for yourself or for gifts... not for sale

Kocia:

Why is it bad to charge money for providing a service?

Cloudburst:

Great minds again, RD. Stuff like that only works if you do it yourself, IMHO{G}

PAniteowl:

yep, RD... you could teach a class on candlemaking and the significance of candle magic... {G}

Red Deer:

because magick is not a service Kocia...

paper plato:

we should charge at least what the new agers do... or at least what the "success 96" ie Zig Zigglers get

melilot:

while i would not purchase one because i could make my own there are those who say just give me a dam candle to light so i don't have to do nothing

Red Deer:

If someone wishes to give me a gift in return for something I've done, I'll certainly accept it.

Kocia:

But performing spells and so forth CAN be a service to one's community, Red.

Red Deer:

But I'd NEVER say "This is worth X dollars if you want it."

PAniteowl:

No plato... we are not new agers... remember this is a viable religion... and the focus should be to teach

Red Deer:

IMO - which is never humble - NOT a service for money, Kocia

Nestor:

paper plato -- isn't that one of the major difference between the "New Agers" and those who see it as a religiously based duty to assist those in need?

Cloudburst:

IMO too, RD

Red Deer:

Would you think it reasonable to charge someone for praying for them?

ViragoWitch:

LOL, RD... you, not having humble opinions?

melilot:

that's not the same thing red the gift comes from their personal being I could not find myself charging for something because i could not control who would have it

PAniteowl:

I would not participate in anything that said they were performing "spells" for someone

Red Deer:

That's what spell work is, after all

works for me, Meli

Kocia:

Agreed, Melilot.

PAniteowl:

{g}... I wouldn't mind you having some of that RD... but what if they got in the hands of say, a Manson... eeewwww!!!

melilot:

redstars hemmm only if reddeer charges it for me first {EG}

ViragoWitch:

LOL.....

Cloudburst:

hate to sound like a dummy, but redstars whuzzat?

SylverHare:

ROFL

Cloudburst:

I obviously don't get to the right places...{G}

Elenya:

Aye, Cloud

PAniteowl:

{g} Cloud... you will... you will

ViragoWitch:

LOLOL... just had a funny thought. "The Pagan Shopping Channel"

melilot:

it was something from the gathering in aug cloud {EG} it and spam shall touch you also

Red Deer:

Hare - I think this is one of those areas where we must decide for ourselves what is OK - selling magick is not OK for me... but that is not a standard I'd judge you by

Cloudburst:

VW, what a concept

Elenya:

Good one, VW

Kocia:

Nestor - is it possible that the economic system under the Old Laws made it more possible for practitioners to make a living (ie, they were supported by their communities)?

Cloudburst:

thanx meli

SylverHare:

hey VW, would Ron Pope-Pele host it???

ViragoWitch:

"and, for just $19.95, thats right, $19.95, you can buy this lovely charged candle, perfect for love spells"

Elenya:

LOL, but only to the first 500 callers

melilot:

hey i've thought of marketing a wicca starter kit; two books, two candle holders, a salt dish a water dish a wand and a goblet all ready for the buyer to charge and use

Red Deer:

Kocia - in the older communities, folk GAVE practitioners what they thought their workings worth within that individuals ability to give - even if it were nothing.

melilot:

LOL sylver

PAniteowl:

uh... VW... that's Ron... make it $119.95

Red Deer:

the witches did not HIRE themselves out for gain

ViragoWitch:

LOL... ok. $119.95 it is.

Nestor:

well the "Old Laws" were made for those who did services for community not trying to make a living off the community by using their magical ablities

SylverHare:

"but wait, if your one of the first 666 callers we'll also throw in this genuine simulated elk horn with your order"

Cloudburst:

Thanks, RD - I was trying to formulate what you said

melilot:

but if a person went to her for a cure for a sickness they brought a "gift"

Nestor:

they were as pagan clergy should be "volunteers" -- not paid professionals

Red Deer:

{--- glad that wasn't deer antler, hare

SylverHare:

ROFL

Cloudburst:

Sure, meli - but just what they had, not the life savings some shyster was charging them for it

Red Deer:

aye Nestor... and the community recognized the need to support such volunteers in many ways... but not with salary

PAniteowl:

There was a trade off in Ancient times... all talents were used for the good of the community... the hunters, thefarmers , all crops went into a common hold... Witches contributed their talents

Nestor:

agreed Red Deer that that can still work very well and can be done with honor and respect

melilot:

but cloud it is the person who pays who decides if they learned a lesson.

Cloudburst:

When the coven ran in my basement, others bought the candles - never had any trouble with THAT

Nestor:

and that is just fine Cloudburst

Red Deer:

a very old dowser (from a long line) told us where to dig our well before we built the house...

Red Deer:

although he was Christian, he'd learned this from his father and grandfather... and they'd also taught him if he ever charged for using his gift, he'd lose it....

Cloudburst:

sorry, meli, if I'm the con artist it's my karma too

PAniteowl:

ok, when I do readings thru a store, I give $10 off the top to the store owner... she's acting as my agent, and I'm using her facilities... and if she makes sales in addition, then that's her business

SylverHare:

Actually, that was what my conversation with the Pentacostal gentleman this week was, I was working my friends store, and he called asking to buy something to remove a curse...

Red Deer:

so when I asked him how much I owed him for the best well in the neighborhood, he said "You don't owe me anything. But any gift you choose to give, I'll accept."

melilot:

i think it all goes back to what you are truely selling

SylverHare:

it seems he was getting flimflammed by someone

Cloudburst:

he was doing it right, RD

Nestor:

fair enough RedDeer

melilot:

it was his gift he couldn't charge for it it wasn't like work to him

ViragoWitch:

"and coming up next, on the Pagan-Home Shopping Network... only 100 available! Charged candles to remove curses."

SylverHare:

I convinced him the best way to go would be to work with his own system of beliefs... hence to pray to Jesus. It surprised him that a Witch told him that{EG}

Cloudburst:

Good job, Hare

PAniteowl:

{g} good going, Hare

Elenya:

{g} I bet it did, Hare

Red Deer:

sure seemed so to me, Cloud

Kocia:

I agree with you about owing, Red Deer. And a gift of money (a way of saying "Your contribution is valuable to me and the community") seems as good to me as other gifts.

melilot:

i'm sorry but very few are actual curses most are just three fold time for them

Red Deer:

great Hare

SylverHare:

LOL, it turned into a very interesting conversation... and one less would be bigot

Kocia:

Way to go Hare!

Nestor:

Kocia - are you a "professional reader" or "merchant" -- trying to understand where you are coming from?

Red Deer:

I would NOT turn down a gift of money, Kocia... but that is VERY different from saying up front "This will cost you $X."

melilot:

one less bigot that has access to changing other bigots hare {EG}

Elenya:

Whatever happened to good old-fashioned bartering?

PAniteowl:

I like bartering!!!

Elenya:

Me too, PA

Cloudburst:

I like bartering

melilot:

it died a death in the early 50's el {G}

ViragoWitch:

Good question, El. Tell you what - I'll trade you 1 hour of bellydancing for a chocolate cake...

Elenya:

No it hasn't Meli... I do it all the time

Elenya:

Kewl, VW

ViragoWitch:

any takers? {g}

melilot:

but it is no longer a way of life it use to be el

Kocia:

Actually, Nestor, I am neither - in fact I have never charged for anything like a Tarot reading, etc. But I have paid reputable people for such things...

PAniteowl:

um... I'm trading some stuff now for my herb garden... working with a pro landscaper {G}

melilot:

i'll give you a cupcake NOT to belly dance vw {EG}

ViragoWitch:

::gravely insulted::

Red Deer:

bartering is good for many things, but I wouldn't even barter for magick... it's still saying This costs x

Nestor:

ok Kocia -- just trying to understand

melilot:

well i got my roof through bartering so i guess i do it too {EG}

Cloudburst:

I do it all the time, meli, but

Kocia:

...as readings, herbal remedies, books, and feel that it is OK to do so, because it is only right to show I respect their work.

melilot:

hey red i'll trade you a magic candle that rids you of the smell of spam for one week for...

PAniteowl:

not really, Rd... If my talent is useful to someone, and their talent is useful to me... a trade seems to be good... what do you see as a problem?

Cloudburst:

RD's right about the difference in bartering for magick - still setting a price, even if the price is three turnips

Von Ravenn:

In many cultures it was customary to give something to the village wise person... food, live stock, etc... for their services

Kocia:

To set one's own value to one's work, rather than waiting for the recipient to do it (as long as one is honest), does not seem wrong.

Red Deer:

no problem if we each say what we'll put in, and we'll each accept WHATEVER the other offers...

melilot:

heheheheh red works for me {EG}

SylverHare:

If someone goes to a shop looking for a reading, they are, and should be, expecting a payment. In such situations I charge. If some one comes to me personally for help, its with no charge. And I give advice on how to do it for

PAniteowl:

yeah, that's how we work it RD {G}

SylverHare:

themselves for free

Red Deer:

there still arises the question, Kocia - Would you refuse a needy person your magickal skills if they couldn't pay?

SylverHare:

And thats ethical for me

melilot:

LOL i like your ethics hare

PAniteowl:

I agree with that Sylver

Red Deer:

works for me Hare

Cloudburst:

sounds reasonable, Hare

Kocia:

Red - oh my goodness no. That would be the height of immorality.

Von Ravenn:

Red Deer, in the case of the needy person, I would go with instinct and the situation

Kocia:

I'm not talking about withholding.

Cloudburst:

{doesn't read in stores. I suspect that's why{G}

Von Ravenn:

I charge only myself... it's a great savings plan {G}

Kocia:

But, Red, I can see the occasion arising in which a person who thought s/he couldn't pay wouldn't seek help in the firstplace, and that makes things problematic.

Maybe you're convincing me, Red.

PAniteowl:

heheh... I don't read for myself... that's like being your own lawyer {G} IMHO

Von Ravenn:

Good point, PAniteowl {G}

melilot:

LOL pa

SylverHare:

some of us KNOW we're fools Pa{G}

Von Ravenn:

LOL

Elenya:

hehehehe

Red Deer:

well, Kocia, if I say this spell costs $100, plenty of needy folk would never even approach me...

PAniteowl:

Next year... RD better have his cards warmed up {G}

Elenya:

Aye, PA

Red Deer:

if I say I'll help you they will, and then can gift me as they are able and willling

SylverHare:

On the other hand, if someone says you "really, really must put this lovespell for me" charging comes in handy,when all ethical arguments fail a short" Fine, that 'll cost $1000 oughta cool their jets, whataya think RD

melilot:

i like that idea hare {EG}

Red Deer:

oughta work, Hare, unless they've a lot more money to burn than you've estimated...

PAniteowl:

ah ha!! Sylver is using $$$ as a binder {G}

Red Deer:

What would you do if they then lay $1000 on the table?

SylverHare:

{G}

Von Ravenn:

$$$ binds a lot of folk! {G}

PAniteowl:

Shock therapy, eh hare?? {G}

ViragoWitch:

raise the price? {g}

SylverHare:

I say "No, In silver please"

melilot:

hare i think for $1000 in sylver you could at least give a little love "spell" {EG}

Nestor:

well I would like to thank everyone for making this an interesting and hopefully valuable discussion

PAniteowl:

heheheh ... Nes, it may not be valuable but it sure is fun!!!

ViragoWitch: