VIRAGOWITCH:

OK, FOLKS... LET'S SETTLE DOWN AND TAKE OUR SEATS...

TONIGHT'S TOPIC IS AN OPEN DISCUSSION ON BEING PAGAN, IN A CHRISTIAN WORLD...EXPLAINING IT TO YOUR COWORKERS, KIDS, PARENTS, ETC

SweetConcr'd:

VW...good topic :)

Seneca7:

ahh, what about trying to explain the differences in pagan religions to people who can't seem to grasp the concepts?

Azrael 7:

I think the easiest way is honesty. If you start out with a veil of lies, then you have to build on them, and maintain them over the years. Until one final blow out.

RyanDaGrape:

They accept it but don't really like it

SweetConcr'd:

How do your relatives take to you being Wiccan..do they accept you ?

Sword Maiden:

Only my mom, and 3 co quad sisters know

SweetConcr'd:

I have not told many, I find they like me better without knowing..Sad, but it is hard for me to tell my Christian friends..I have lost many because of it...but it is who I am.

kueka:

All my friends know...they don't care

Nestor11:

OK --this is where I get to say with the 'old school' Wiccan traditions , since no one under 18 was admitted the problem was much less. You then have the right to believe and act as an adult as you choose.

VIRAGOWITCH:

Nestor- and some even had a minimum age requirement of 21

IrishGypsy:

Yes, Nestor but adults still turn on people

Nestor11:

And second -- if you keep it tight and underground on a "need to know" basis a we were taught there is much less problems too

kueka:

i dont live with my dad but i want to tell him!

Nestor11:

kueka --why tell him --why do other have to know everything about you?

VIRAGOWITCH:

I'm "out of the Broom Closet", and, with a few exceptions, I had no problems with upset friends/family.

Seneca7:

..and the old standby,"allow me the same freedom of choice that I allow you, without hypocrisy"

VIRAGOWITCH:

Here's a question for those with children. Are you raising your children Pagan, and how d they feel about your beliefs?

kueka:

because i love him and want him to know how I feel.

Nestor11:

yes most of my friends knows but it was done slowly on a one-to-one basis each at the correct time

Azrael 7:

I don't think the problem is telling others. I think the main problem is having enough faith in yourself to accept the reactions you get when you do tell them.

Elenya:

I'm raising my children to follow whatever path feels right to them, but they know our religious beliefs, and any questions about it are answered open and honestly.

Sword Maiden:

oh, i told my mom i would raise my child to be pagan and she had a fit

VIRAGOWITCH:

She didn't take it too well, huh, Sword M?

Azzie:

I go to a Catholic school, and I have for 10 years, and I've never had a big problem with the kids. They either like it or they don't, but it's nothing I'm going to change myself for.

IrishGypsy:

I will not hide it from my children, but will let them make their own choices later on

:

What about choices of names for your children ; reflecting your religion?

SweetConcr'd:

Az, perhaps...I don't tell people for the fact, that many of these people I have known for a long time, yet they think I'm evil, its not easy.

Sword Maiden:

no, and she doesn't care if i am pagan, but not my future children, if i were to have 1

Nestor11:

but Sword what difference would it make if you didn't tell her? Doe she have a "right to know"?

kueka:

and my dad is always asking me if i love jesus. I don't feel right lying to him!

Sword Maiden:

good point Nestor

Nestor11:

Does she have a right to interfere with what you as an adult are doing?

VIRAGOWITCH:

Keuka- Well, there's a difference between Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus the Messiah....{g}

Sword Maiden:

no..

IrishGypsy:

good point

kueka:

yes true

SweetConcr'd:

true VW.

kueka:

thanks

Nestor11:

you see if you do it the old ways --they do have some common sense attached to them

SweetConcr'd:

never thought of it that way VW :)

VIRAGOWITCH:

I learned a lot from the Jesuits...

kueka:

me nether

Nestor11:

yes VW --so true

Azzie:

Can I ask the difference between Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus the Messiah?

VIRAGOWITCH:

Azzie- Well... depends upon whether or not you believe he was the messiah..son of God.. or just a very wise man.

SweetConcr'd:

I loved being Baptist, there was much faith there, I admire faith. But we all must chose our paths.

Nestor11:

and if you are forced to go to church --do so -- sit , listen and observe-- learn what you can of their beliefs, tactics, and techniques --knowing them will come in handy later

VIRAGOWITCH:

What about co-workers? Anyone ever had any problems at work, due to Pagan beliefs?

kueka:

jesus the messiah is considered the son of god

Nestor11:

VW --why tell them anything...If we expect them to be 'religious -neutral ' at work then we should be the same

VIRAGOWITCH:

Nestor- I adopted a policy of "If asked...Tell. But don't Volunteer anything"

Elenya:

Aye, Nestor....

Azrael 7:

I think the easiest way to deal with religion at work is to just let them know you don't feel the work place is the proper place for religious discussion.

Nestor11:

agreed AZ

VIRAGOWITCH:

A friend of mine had a few problems, with a co-worker who was a Born Again, and was trying to "save" them all.

IrishGypsy:

It is true, religion does not belong at work

VIRAGOWITCH:

A strategically placed Xerox of the ACLU Handbook of Religious Freedom and Religious Rights solved that problem, LOL

Sword Maiden:

Oh save me somebody, save me (LOL)

Nestor11:

YesVW --and I am sure he is doing a wonderful job for us --turning everyone else off about Christianity!

kueka:

religion belongs in a person heart and that is all.

Nestor11:

agreed kueka

Azzie:

But doesn't religion belong in our actions as well???

kueka:

true

SweetConcr'd:

kueka..I agree !

Azrael 7:

That's true. But most all religions would dictate the same actions.

Nestor11:

yes, Azzie but our action can be done as they were for centuries without revealing who and what we are

VIRAGOWITCH:

I've always thought so, Azzie. Using Christianity, as an example, in order act in a "Christ-like manner", one need not attempt to Save every single person you see... Rather, one can attempt to be a kind, civil, loving person.

Sword Maiden:

what do you do if a younger member of your family (9, nieces) wants to know about your religion, but you think that you might never be able to see them again if their parents found out?

IrishGypsy:

I think the xtians borrowed that from us VW!

VIRAGOWITCH:

That is a rough situation, Sword...

Azrael 7:

I'd say talk to the parents first.

SweetConcr'd:

I believe that religion can not be forced. You should be joyful and have love through your faith...that alone is the best testament to your faith...people will want to be part of that.

Nestor11:

well sword then perhaps you have to act the adult and tell them that you would tell them when they're an adult since you would only create more problems by doing so now'

Azrael 7:

If you're trying to hide things, then it will seem wrong. But if you're open with things, they seem a lot less devious.

Sword Maiden:

there lies a problem Az, if my brother and sis n law knew my religion i might still be faced with that problem

Arcadea:

Sword, I tell her in simple terms and tell her as she grows, she will make her own choices

Nestor11:

so avoid the problem --do your brother and sister-in-law need to know? Is it vital that they know? Usually not

Red Deer:

Only my mom knows, none of my sibs

Sword Maiden:

she already know about the fact that we{wiccans\pagans} worship the god and goddess, that there is no jesus or satan within our religion, and that we DONT work black magic...but she VIRAGOWITCH:{-- does not usually ask people, in routine conversation, what their religious/spiritual beliefs involve

Piper Fox:

Maybe tell her shat its about rather than it's common name since it's sort has a bad rap?

Red Deer:

but El & the girls do, of course

Sword Maiden:

still wants to know more :

SweetConcr'd:

VW..nor do I.

Red Deer:

then teach her, maiden!

Nestor11:

SM --but when she becomes 18 then feel free to tell her all she want to know

IrishGypsy:

Sword, she'll find the way on her own if she is meant to know.

Nestor11:

but until then --bypass the topic

Azrael 7:

I think the biggest question you need to ask yourself is "Do I need to hide? Why?"

Azrael 7:

I meant that for everyone not just swordmaiden.

Nestor11:

How would you feel if a Christian relative were to start talking you your kind and may trying to convert them. I doubt if you would appreciate that

Red Deer:

hiding in the attic?

Azzie:

It happens to me all the time.

Azrael 7:

Rather than come up with excuses why you should hide, or why you'd like to, come up with answers about why you need to, why hiding is a necessity..

kueka:

i would hate it!

Elenya:

I don't hide Az, I just don't discuss many aspects of my personal life, including my religious persuasion

SweetConcr'd:

I admit I hide...I know it is wrong. But I tell people if they ask. There are many parts to me, and I hate being judged on my collective religious beliefs.

Arcadea:

but Nes, talking and answering questions is not converting

VIRAGOWITCH:

However... Sword- how would your family feel if a you were a Fundamentalist Christian and telling your niece about that religion? Would they be upset and angry? Forbid you to see her?

Elenya:

I also don't normally discuss my sex life {g}

Nestor11:

Because as Lady Rowan and Lady Owlen said -"Religious freedom does not pay for broken windows."

SweetConcr'd:

agreed.

Red Deer:

If my children asked questions and a Christian relative taught - NOT tried to convert - I wouldn't mind... and that's how I'd approach my nieces/nephews IF they asked me questions

Nestor11:

yes we have the right to be as we chose. but on the other hand we must be 'wise' about discussing and revealing it

Red Deer:

I do enough for both of us EL {G}

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL, Red!

LuvliknAngel:

why do you all not believe in Jesus or hell

Elenya:

Agreed, RD

Sword Maiden:

no they wouldn't vw, sad but true

kueka:

my dad only wants me 2 hang with the Christian crowd!

Red Deer:

why DO you, luvliknangel ???

Azrael 7:

Jesus and hell aren't logical for one reason. Having a single man in history be proclaimed god (or son there of), and having an absolute place of torture for a few mortal mistakes, doesn't make sense.

VIRAGOWITCH:

Kueka- does your dad question all your friends about their religious beliefs?

SweetConcr'd:

kueka...I do. Many of my friends are Christian, and many will accept me for who I am, but many will not.

Nestor11:

kueka --you still have your own mind --and no matter who you are with --it is still your thoughts which you have to reveal to no one

Sword Maiden:

{-- hasnt hung with the xian crowd since i was 12

kueka:

YES!

IrishGypsy:

And Jesus is a relatively new god (like 2000 years)

Red Deer:

extremely new, as pantheons go

LuvliknAngel:

Why do you think that he is horrible and mean he is not I do not understand

VIRAGOWITCH:

I don't think he's horrible or mean. I just don't believe is the son of God and the messiah.

Red Deer:

Jesus is not either of those, but MANY who claim to follow his teachings ARE

Nestor11:

he is not mean or horrible --only being "willfully ignorant" and follow his pre-conditioning

Sword Maiden:

he is horrible and mean...i mean he killed his own son...i wouldnt want a god like that

Azrael 7:

I think it's important thing to remember that we're not pagans living in a christian world, but pagans trying to get along with christians in the same world.

Red Deer:

agreed Azrael

Nestor11:

true Azreal

VIRAGOWITCH:

I like that point, Az

AZEROTH:

jesus was in MY opinion just a man with good ethics

Red Deer:

only our part of the world is "christian"

LuvliknAngel:

He did not kill his own son he died for our sins and loves us unconditionally

Elenya:

Not only Christians, but Jews and Hindis, and atheists...

Red Deer:

most of the world (population wise) is not

Nestor11:

we are going to have to learn to accept and share --but we must be "wise" in the way in which we share

SweetConcr'd:

i know that many will disagree with me but... I believe that no matter what name you call it, or how you pray...there is only one "Unknowable Power" We all see it from different angles though.

What about religious discrimination? Is it an issue?

IrishGypsy:

I find it particularly hard to tell my kids or raise them to be wiccan...nervous of what the reactions from their friends would be.

Nestor11:

unless there is a need to know --why tell?

Azrael 7:

I think religious discrimination has begun quickly fading in the 90's.

IrishGypsy:

Yet I want to teach them so they can learn; grow in it.

ath20:

which we use in everyday life....

Red Deer:

I think it greatly depends upon where you are, Azrael

Sword Maiden:

Looks around....seeing no satan:

Azrael 7:

In the bible belt.

VIRAGOWITCH:

And should we fear the rise in political power, gained by the Religous Right {ie, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan}?

Eldrid:

Virago , there are wackos on both ends .

Eldrid:

Gephardt and Gore to name a few of my favorites

VIRAGOWITCH:

{-- wouldn't call Gore a wacko.. {G}

Azrael 7:

Most people now are taking a more "It's your business" approach to others religions, rather than attacking anyone in the neighborhood that's different.

IrishGypsy:

True, Az due to globalization, etc.

Red Deer:

not in the rural areas around my state

Eldrid:

well , he's not certifiable , but I STRONGLY disagree with his vision of the future

VIRAGOWITCH:

Recently, many fundamental Christian PACs are charging that the Democratic party is populated by witches, and have control of the Supreme Ct, and are trying to abolish Freedom of Religion.....

Nestor11:

Az -- unfortunately that is a true in only certain areas of this country

Sword Maiden:

i have to admit that i am guilty of changing my opinion of people once i find out they are xians...tho i have a few friends here that are xian

Eldrid:

Azrael , I sure hope so . the news from the Christian rooms is not encouraging...

AZEROTH:

that's because more people have lost faith be it religious or economic ect...

Eldrid:

most disturbing Virago .

ath20:

does anyone remember that in genisis god said let there an expanse to separate the water form the water.. meaning when people are together that they can be different...Difference makes up the people in the world......!!!!!!!!!

IrishGypsy:

Christians focus too much on repenting for sins, etc.

Azrael 7:

Most incidents of religious violence and oppression as of currently, have been isolated...

SweetConcr'd:

Deer, I do believe that there is only one "Power" we all just view him from different angles. We find the best way for us to worship, that way we find the best way to love.

Eldrid:

but , there are wackos on both ends . {Larry King , etc...}

kueka:

i think so

ath20:

That is right sweet we are all different

Aralia5:

good thought sweet:

Azrael 7:

A single lady in Rhode island. A couple people in the south. But they haven't been large scale things. A few people in different parts of the country having trouble.

SweetConcr'd:

agreed Ath..diffrence is what is great..but difference is not always accepted.

kueka:

so what do i do when my dad says i cant hang with my best friend??????????

Sword Maiden:

what faith is your best friend?

Azrael 7:

you go and hang out with your best friend like you used to.

SweetConcr'd:

thanks Ara

Elenya:

Az, are churches being burned weekly in your part of the country?

Azzie:

I'd still hang with him (or her).

Azrael 7:

Nope. Not weekly. In fact, not at all.

Sword Maiden:

my advice is hang together at school anyway, i mean your father has NO CONTROL what you do away from home }

Elenya:

They are in North Carolina

Eldrid:

Kueka , weigh your options CAREFULLY . your parents are not always right , but make sure that

they're wrong first . Don't just go do something because your parents said not to , THINK .

Azrael 7:

That's what I mean though. That's one part of the country.

ath20:

in ezekiel it states they are to teach my people the difference between the holy and the common and show them how to distinguish between the unclean and the clean.!!!!!!

Azrael 7:

It's not a perfect world, and in 10,000 years, that'll still be happening. As long as there's different religions, that'll be happening.

AZEROTH:

but it's part of the whole

Elenya:

So, what happens here isn't a problem for the rest of the country?

Nestor11:

of course it is Elenya

Azrael 7:

It's unfortunate that it does happen. But it's not everywhere, it's just in some places.

Azzie:

there's always been religion tension and oppression and violence, and I'm sure there always will be.

Elenya:

I feel you are looking at the world with rose coloured glasses, Az

Azzie:

what's wrong with that,El?{G}

Nestor11:

but the way we approach the problem has a lot to do with the success that we as a pagan community will have in the future, if we get to be know first as hard working civic minded people - BEFORE they even know our faith

VIRAGOWITCH:

Any recommendations on how, Nestor?

Nestor11:

then we will b e long way to removing their misconceptions

Azrael 7:

You can't expect the world to be perfect, it's not.

Nestor11:

yes VW --participate in your community and school --work hard on everything you do

kueka:

my mom thinks im in a cult

AZEROTH:

he also said love thy neighbor and you see people cannot follow that one..

\

Eldrid:

Kueka , a cult is just a religion without popular support , don't sweat it one bit , ya hear ?

Elenya:

Nor can you pretend that atrocities do not happen every day

SweetConcr'd:

AZ, agreed, the bible says much about acceptance.

LordCearnach:

I believe the one primary concept of our religion as a whole is that our respective spiritual doctrines can and do thrive without dogma...

Nestor11:

lean to lead by example --with out focusing on you religion or anyone else's

Warmuth:

I disagree....Christians will never accept us!

VIRAGOWITCH:

{- working on it, Nestor.. as it is, I get little sleep {G}

Sword Maiden:

Kueka, there are those who will insist on believe in that any religion besides their own is a cult!!

Eldrid:

Warmuth , not all , no . but always some , trust me

Azzie:

Christians as a whole or just a few Christians?

Azrael 7:

I don't pretend they don't happen. I never said I did. What I said was it's not something that's happening everywhere.

Elenya:

Many of them do, Warmuth....

Nestor11:

Warmuth I agree they will never accept us

SweetConcr'd:

War, they may..if we accept them as well...

Nestor11:

in total but

Red Deer:

depends on the Christians, Warmuth

Nestor11:

we can make in roads

SweetConcr'd:

i am accepted by those who know what and who I am, education is key.

Eldrid:

Nestor , do you accept them ? I mean , maybe that could be a first step in reconciliation .

Nestor11:

and then they will tend to argue among them selves

Azzie:

Good point,Eldrid.

Eldrid:

You will shame them if you are nicer than them , Christ told them to be the nicest folks on the block

Eldrid:

if its obvious that they're not , well...

Red Deer:

Christianity and Paganism have at least one similarity... not all who profess to follow them do... both religions, in their basic ideation, are tolerant, but many Christians AND Pagans are NOT

Nestor11:

actually Eldird --I have friend among some of the Chrisitian clergy and have had for years

LordCearnach:

Getting anyone to open their minds just a little bit can go quite a long way....I'm living proof, as are many others here, I'm confident.......

Warmuth:

some will accept us, maybe....but those in Power...those who pull the strings....those who control the others will never...to do so would lessen their poser over the weak minded

Eldrid:

That is beautiful Nestor , seriously . its very rare .

SweetConcr'd:

I am human, I get mad when attacked just as they do, but I also attempt to make up. And many times they do.

Nestor11:

we agree to disagree --except of important matter --like what is the best wine!

Warmuth:

We can accept christians...but the Christians in power will never accept us

Eldrid:

Sweet , thats the difference between us and them

Eldrid:

peace and happiness is not a denomination issue .

VIRAGOWITCH:

LOL, Nestor

SweetConcr'd:

agreed Eld

Red Deer:

That sounds as narrow-minded as you accuse them of being, Warmuth... it is true of the far right, but not of all Christians with positions of power

Aralia5:

I just try to accept people as i would like them to accept me. I try to educate them about my religion,,,if they cannot accept and appreciate differences in the world then it's their loss..

kueka:

rite on!

Nestor11:

RD --I think you are correct --the far-right or fundamentalist are as Lady Warmuth say --but you are correct in that the moderate and mainline denominations are reachable and workable with

Warmuth:

Narrow minded...maybe but not without experience......I was raised a pagan from a family tradition that goes back before the revolutionary war in this country....I KNOW

Eldrid:

christians are like everyone else . they do stupid things and they don't always do whats right . I guess you can always tell who has happiness by what they do after saying something stupid , not always during

SweetConcr'd:

i attempt to accept people for who they are, not collective religious beliefs. I have Christian friends, yet have Pagans I cant stand..religion means nothing.

AZEROTH:

thats people eld

LordCearnach:

It is those who belongs to this so-called "Christian regime" that we must establish our primary rapport

with, not just the "grassroots" Xian....we can think locally, but act globally, as the old environmentalist cliché goes.....

Eldrid:

you bet

Elenya:

I agree Sweet, personality means more to me than religion

Warmuth:

all I can say is ..NEVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN.....trust me...you'll be sorry

DrkLightning:

Personally, I think the Wiccans are just like the Christians--They stereotype one another. Is this not true?

Red Deer:

Warmuth - I don't doubt that you know the past, and may therefore be NOT doomed to repeat it, but expecting people in the future to be as those of the past may force you into that pattern anyway

Nestor11:

to that I TOTALLY AGREE Lady Warmuth

Azrael 7:

I think that's a big problem, too many people are busy guarding themselves and they forget to be themselves.

Eldrid:

Drk , you can't slot people based on their persuasion . saying all christians are like so and all pagans are like this is irresponsible

LordCearnach:

Agreed Warmuth....we must be realistic, above all else...

Red Deer:

yes Dark, many of both religions are like that

SweetConcr'd:

Drk, everyone ends up getting stereotyped.

Red Deer:

but not all of either

Azzie:

Ah,wise words Azrael.

DrkLightning:

Then maybe we should stop?

Eldrid:

perhaps we should

Red Deer:

aye Azrael

SweetConcr'd:

But, Drk, I believe both sides do try...not easy when both sides think they are right.

Warmuth:

I do not believe this religion is for everyone....I do not go out to CONVERT the world.....I stay underground and will remain that way forever

Nestor11:

Drk my friend there is no end to this -- it goes on and on --

DrkLightning:

Warmuth--I'm sure you fight with Christians though.

VIRAGOWITCH:

There's a difference between religion and spirituality....sadly

Azzie:

And the only reason it goes on and on is because no one tries to stop it.

Nestor11:

and she like a lot of has had too Drk

SweetConcr'd:

The only way this ends is when both sides admit, that they are able to believe as they chose.

Warmuth:

I don't fight ...what is the use

SweetConcr'd:

agreed VW

Aralia5:

i think we should always be ready for questions, not necessarily guarding ourselves though.

LordCearnach:

In a perfect world, our religious proclivities would be as our sexual preferences...remain to ourselves, our own private business..that is what it amounts to in the end, regardless....people must learn to respect that someday...

Azrael 7:

All animals surface eventually though. You'll eventually get the urge to breathe.

Red Deer:

one can always answer questions WITHOUT telling what one's own religion is

Elenya:

Aye, m'Lord

Warmuth:

Those who try and stop it...get burnt at the stake...if not in actually, then figuratively

DrkLightning:

You have to understand--that before Vatican II--most people whom are now adults were brainwashed into thinking that only their religion is true, but today with the younger generation, that

SweetConcr'd:

agreed Az

DrkLightning:

is beginning to dwindle.

Eldrid:

its not fighting with christians and pagans , its people vs. people . A pagan or a christian is just like everyone else . its like your favorite color . its not a fight between people who like brown and those who

AZEROTH:

yes red

Eldrid:

like blue

Red Deer:

Just as I can answer questions about Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc... I can answer questions about Wicca

SweetConcr'd:

Agreed Eldrid..we all have a desire to be right...its a HUMAN trait. .Not a religious one.

Nestor11:

Yes RD that is an important key to handling the real world problems

LordCearnach:

These are rudimentary human failings, Eldrid....just another collective excuse/scapegoat that people

use to find some measure of superiority over another....it's been "our" way...we must seek to evolve out of that behavioral constant...

Eldrid:

Concord , I liken the desire to be right as far as religion as the desire for you to like my favorite colors . its like demanding in the name of God that you like my favorite color . its ridiculous and definitely anti-social

Red Deer:

Drk - study Vat II closely... only those nonCatholics who have not been taught the word of God are undamned... if they've learned and not accepted, or if they've left Catholicism, they are damned

Eldrid:

ungodly to say the least

DrkLightning:

Here's a question:

Are there higher magical orders

than witches?

Aralia5:

I think if you don't feel comfortable talking about your religion with a certain person a good way to get out of it is to revert the conversation back to their beliefs..people like to talk about ....

AZEROTH:

man is a predator that is why it happens thou

SweetConcr'd:

agreed Eld..good point.

Aralia5:

themselves:

Azrael 7:

All magical orders I'd say are on an equally high platform.

LordCearnach:

Higher is relative terminology, Drk..I personally don't acknowledge such an differentiation....

DrkLightning:

Red-----A new idea has come into the Church within this decade called Universal Salvation.

Arcadea:

MP {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Room}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Red Deer:

drk - please define both "higher" and "magical order"

Eldrid:

Drk , Latter day saints have held that view for over 100 years

Warmuth:

It does gnaw on the tendons to sit back and hear Xtians say I am gonna burn in hell and if you say it Aint so...you get the "YOU are Satan " then

Nestor11:

Drk remember Wicca is a religions --not a magical order

Red Deer:

that is not part of Vatican II, however

SweetConcr'd:

I have made many friends with people who did not know what I practice, many of them I liked, but when they find out what I practice, they turn as if I'm evil, its education...

DrkLightning:

Higher as in having magic enough to be like gods, and higher-as in a sect by itself.

LordCearnach:

For some, ignorance is indeed bliss, Warmuth...{g}

SweetConcr'd:

they need to be taught the truth, just as there are many things about Christians we think.

Eldrid:

Yeah , I've been cast out in the name of christ before Warmuth . you've just got to laugh sometimes . just remember that THEY are the idiots , not that the religion is idiotic . they're completely

different

Red Deer:

magic enough to be like gods is US

DrkLightning:

I didn't mean for it to sound like that.

LordCearnach:

Truth is also relative, SC....the truth we discover as self-evident is the ONLY truth we must defend...

Warmuth:

All that " blood of the Lamb" gets real messy

SweetConcr'd:

agreed.

Red Deer:

and there are many magic-religious groups separate from Witches

AZEROTH:

truth on individual basis

DrkLightning:

I mean--Does anyone in here believe that one can have enough magic power to be able to do awesome things, say like control the weather, universe, and influence everything on Earth?

Azzie:

actually, I think the blood of the lamb is a beautiful symbol.

LordCearnach:

It is possible, Dark...and has been done in my presence...

SweetConcr'd:

If i tell them before I know them, then i dont make a friend, if I tell them after, I lose a friend...but I have learned to live with it..somewhat.

DrkLightning:

I agree Azzie

Nestor11:

Drk --I have enough problems controlling myself --I leave the rest to the Gods

Red Deer:

for me belief is not the issue to that... my question is "Why would you want to CONTROL?"

Red Deer:

Concord... all who know me in my home/work environment know my religion... if I lose a friend because of it, then they never were my friend...

LordCearnach:

This room, above all others, should promote an open-minded arena in which to discuss such topics, Dark....

DrkLightning:

Okay okay.

Red Deer:

I find that the only folk bothered by my religion are the fundamentalists... and they are so closed minded that I'd not want one for a friend anyway

Eldrid:

Deer... don't slot people like that...

SweetConcr'd:

agreed Red..but not any easier. One of my friends has a lot of faith, and we were good friends, but she has been taught so wrong about me...

SweetConcr'd:

I cant go near her kids anymore.

Warmuth:

I have a little trouble with them not recognizing ritual cannibalism too

Eldrid:

you'll miss a lot of opportunities...

Red Deer:

no Eldrid... any who proclaim that the Bible is LITERALLY true, and that believers of any other path are damned ARE BY DEFINITION narrow-minded

THORforSara:

I may the only one, but the people I have met and know, well they excepted me as an atheist, and now they except me as what I now am, a Polytheist

AZEROTH:

agreed red

Elenya:

Aye, RD

Warmuth:

Our God may die every year...but at least we don't EAT him

AZEROTH:

in their own terms

Eldrid:

Deer , if missing out on friendship opportunities is not a motivating factor for you dear , than I remind you that you are commanded of christ to love your neighbors . that INCLUDES the fundies , like em or NOT !

Red Deer:

but I have never refused a conversation or a friend on this account, Eldrid... when fundies learn of MY religion, they universally back away from me

Nestor11:

yes RD -- that is a 'fundamental logical problem' in any monotheistic faith --they must make all others wrong

Red Deer:

I am not commanded of Christ in ANYTHING as I am NOT christian

Warmuth:

Thank the goddess

Eldrid:

It was my impression that you were a catholic . my apologies .

Elenya:

Amen, Warmuth!

Red Deer:

WAS is the operative word - I'm recovering

Nestor11:

Eldrid why do you feel that you can "command" us in the name of Christ --that is the basis of the entire problem

Cruci:

What religion are you, RED DEER??

SweetConcr'd:

War, refrain from the Christian bashing comments please, there are some here...this is an open forum.

Warmuth:

Red Deer is as much a Christian as I am, I believe

Red Deer:

I AM A WITCH!!!

Eldrid:

Nestor , I was speaking to RED specifically , as a christian , which I have just learned that she is not .

Red Deer:

and have been for nearly 20 years!..and I am NOT a she!

Elenya:

She, is also a he...perhaps you should get to know who you are talking to before passing judgments

Azrael 7:

It seems like people have learned to put religion (themselves) third in priority.

Warmuth:

I am not bashing....and I do believe this is a PAGAN/WICCAN chat room

Red Deer:

thank you my deer

Eldrid:

I do not demand that you do anything , you haven't said that you will follow christ , that I know of . thats fine , I'm not into condemnation . but catholics take vows , and should be reminded if they fail to keep them

Nestor11:

well Eldrid realize that this is not the Christian Fellowship room and most of the speaker are not and will never be Chrsitians --please take care in what you say

Eldrid:

I am again corrected Deer , I apologize

DrkLightning:

War----Can't we all just--get along?

Red Deer:

thank you

Azrael 7:

First people seem to care about their job, work before religion, then people seem to care about friends... and lastly if they can fit it in, religion comes.

Nestor11:

Drk --sometimes I am not that sure that we can

Eldrid:

Nestor , I truly apologize . It was not my intention to preach to you or condemn you in any way .

Nestor11:

'I would love to see but....

Red Deer:

{--- religion & family, then friends, then work

Warmuth:

Please say the to Roberts, Falwell, or some of the others...PLEASE

Eldrid:

I was speaking specifically and only to Red Deer .

Nestor11:

Eldrid --you see my friend we get this every night -- there are may more radical than you who attempt to

disrupt and harass and other wise condemn

Red Deer:

I am most curious as to why you believed me Catholic, Eldrid

Eldrid:

I do not condone that . I fear that I have been gravely misunderstood .

Warmuth:

As I get older and older...I find I have less and less Christian friends....it has been no great loss to me

Nestor11:

so if you happen to come in with those marking one ---please do not be surprised of we are a bit quick on the trigger

Eldrid:

Red , When I first walked in , I heard you say something of that nature . I cannot remember specifically , I am sorry .

Eldrid:

very well Nestor , we do the same thing to the thumpers in the agnostics room {g}

SweetConcr'd:

Eldrid has apologized for his mistake..please move on.

Warmuth:

Nestor...are you leading this discussion???

Cruci:

What do you guys think of the Pentecostal religion??

Nestor11:

no My Lady Warmuth --just a simple participant

Warmuth:

Who is Honcho or Honchoette??

SweetConcr'd:

War, this is an open forum.

Elenya:

Nestor, you are never a simple participant {g}

Nestor11:

moi?

Warmuth:

No Darlin'

SweetConcr'd:

We are all teachers tonight.

Elenya:

VIRAGO WITCH was called away on business.... we're on our own

SweetConcr'd:

As well as students.

Red Deer:

We are all always student and teacher

SweetConcr'd:

agreed.

Warmuth:

Never forget the Student part

Red Deer:

that's the most important part IMO

SweetConcr'd:

Not "God" and "heathen"

Aralia5:

true

Warmuth:

We are all Gods and Goddesses here

Nestor11:

I started by saying that the older methods of some of the traditions in which people were not instructed nor initiated until they were at least 18 and in some tradition 212 -avoided a lot of problems with parents

Nestor11:

I still this that is a wise policy

Red Deer:

I can agree to that with outsiders Nestor...

Elenya:

Nestor, I'm 42 and still wouldn't tell my parents {g}

Warmuth:

I agree

Eldrid:

goodnight all . may the peace of whomever you follow be with you .

LordCearnach:

212...that is quite a long time to wait for most ordinary mortals, Nestor...{g}

Red Deer:

but my children deserve to be raised in my religion... not told to wait until they are 18 or 21

Nestor11:

if a parent wishes to train their child that is their private business

Nestor11:

ach until 21 --sorry

Red Deer:

lol

Elenya:

I was wondering how many turns of the wheel that was, Nestor

Warmuth:

exactly.....but they should be taught (children) caution in discussing it

AZEROTH:

{slol}

Nestor11:

Elenya --I will be happy to make 50 next month and what ever the God give me I am contented with

Elenya:

Agreed, Nestor

Nestor11:

indeed LadyWarmuth --the old "Laws" did have their place

Warmuth:

They are there for a reason

SweetConcr'd:

bowing to an older and wiser witch:

Nestor11:

I would wish that more modern traditions at least had their member still look at them and try to understand their spirit

Warmuth:

I think we forget the old Laws much to easily

SweetConcr'd:

I cherish the old laws, and also try to embrace new ones, sometimes the can conflict though.

Warmuth:

If anything will be our downfall, it will be discarding too much of the old

Nestor11:

Agreed Lady Warmuth

Nestor11:

and we must restore the 'civility' within our mutual traditions --long before we expect that the rest of the world becomes 'civilized'

Red Deer:

this conversation is reminiscent of Christians debating Old vs New Testament Law

Red Deer:

{ducks}

ASSERT:

loll

Warmth:

But we can never forget that we are a Mystery Religion....and continue to treat it thus

SweetConcr'd:

All of us, all religions will all fight, sad to say, mainly because we can not show each other definitive proof that we are right. We must wait till a divine moment, or till we die.

Nestor11:

lol RD --since neither is exclusive of the other or replace the other there is little conflict

Nestor11:

yes Warmuth My Sister the basis of Wicca is that of a Mystery Religion and we forget that at our own cost

SweetConcr'd:

agreed Nestor, perhaps if we lose the mystery, we lose the religion as it is known.

Red Deer:

agreed, Warmuth & Nestor

Warmuth:

Some things should NEVER be for the general population...NEVER put in print and definitely NEVER published

Nestor11:

a study of Mystery Religions and Eleusis would help many understand a lot of what they need to know about the heart and soul of the Craft

Red Deer:

ah, it is not religions that fight, it is humans that fight

SweetConcr'd:

agreed Red.

SweetConcr'd:

Religion is just an excuse, because we can not see that we which we are fighting about..there fore no one can prove that one group is wrong.

Red Deer:

humans seek reasons to war... religion only happens to be one of them... we also war over food, mates, territory, etc

Warmuth:

there is no need to prove wrong or right....but those Christians are sure gonna be surprised when they die and find they are in Summerland too