Red Deer:

Well, folks, shall we get started?

ViragoWitch:::clears throat::

Red Deer:

1) Please keep all BBs, MMs, MPs, and side-conversations in IM for the duration of class.

2) Please hold questions and comments until our facilitator opens the floor

3) Should an exclusion be called, PLEASE cease talking to or about the excludee immediately (except in IM).

4) Would one or two who expect to attend the entire class please log for back-up?

5) With that, I pass the besom to VW!

Arcadia:

{-----------logging

Red Deer:

(I'll ward)

ViragoWitch:

Many thanks RD... no sharp objects, please!

ViragoWitch:

First of all...I want to say..as many of y'all know, I sliced open my finger today, and have a big packing/Band-Aid thing on my finger- and typing isn't easy. Please bear with me.

ViragoWitch:

Tonight, I'll be giving you a brief look at Pan-Indianism, .specifically the Ghost Dance religion

ViragoWitch:

PanIndianism is an inter-tribal social movement, in which several tribes, joined by culture, but not by kin, unite, usually to fight a common enemy, such as the Federal Gov't

ViragoWitch:

The Ghost Dance is classified as both a Pan-Indian movement..and a Millenarian Movement.

ViragoWitch:

For those who wonder...millenarian movements prophesize a cataclysm in the near

future..followed by collective salvation. Sound familiar?

ViragoWitch:

The Ghost Dance was a way for the NA's to connect with their ancestors

It was a way to continue the hoop..the cycle...that connected them all..keeping their culture and tradition alive.

ViragoWitch:

Through frenzied dancing, the Ghost Dancers felt they could glimpse what they believed to be the very near future..& hasten it along...they believed that in the future, the world would be theirs

Nestor11:

VW --not clear on something --didn;t the 'Ghost Dance ' movement which lead to the Indian wars in the West - die out in the late 1890s --or is this a new revival of that movement?

ViragoWitch:

Nestor- there was a revival in the 70s..and there still are some Ghost Dancers today

Nestor11:

thanks

ViragoWitch:

Tonight I'm focusing on the history..perhaps I'll to a later class on the present.

ViragoWitch:

Ok... The Ghost Dance spread in popularity among the tribes, and contributed to Indian Militancy. and the Federal Gov't didn't like that much {g}

ViragoWitch:

So..where did this Ghost Dance thing come from?

ViragoWitch:

It originated among the Paiutes of Nevada. In the pre-mission days, any cessation of tribal

dancing would have been believed to have resulted in catastrophe..if not the end of the world

ViragoWitch:

The words to one Ohlone Ghost Dance song translate roughly to "dancing on the brink of the World"

ViragoWitch:

The NA's living in the Diablo Valley, including the Plains Miwok, Ohlones, & Yokuts, brought together diverse dance traditions...

ViragoWitch:

Ironically...the Ghost Dance spread north, to the Plains, due to the cornerstone of the Government's Assimilationist Policy....education.

ViragoWitch:

By teaching the NAs english and bringing people of different tribes together....the NAs were able to overcome their tribal language barriers and share.

ViragoWitch:

By 1890, over 65% of the tribes in the West were Ghost Dancing.

ViragoWitch:

The Ghost Dance fever of the 1870s was accompanied by an unusual mobility in the interchange of tribal customs & ceremonies...PanIndianism was at work

ViragoWitch:

In 1876, the Sioux reluctantly left the Black Hills and agreed to the reduction of the Great Sioux reservation, to 5 much smaller ones.

ViragoWitch:

By the late 1880s, the Sioux were very unhappy. They were no longer free to roam the Plains...the buffalo herds were being killed off..food was scarce. they hated the reservations.

ViragoWitch:

Needless to say, they were pretty upset with the white man.

ViragoWitch:

In the summer of 1890, they turned to the Ghost Dance

ViragoWitch:

They believed this magic would bring back their ancestors...bring back the buffalo...and eliminate the white man

ViragoWitch:

They sought escape through the Ghost Dance...which is full of songs proclaiming the return of the buffalo..return of the ancestors...elimination of the white man...

ViragoWitch:

and...the fact that non-believers would be turned to stone.

ViragoWitch:

The Ghost Dance briefly united the tribes during the late 1880s and early 1890s...some of whom has already united through PanIndianism..to resist the US Cavalry.

ViragoWitch:

The US Army became alarmed at the Ghost Dance fever that was sweeping the West... they didn't really understand it..it scared them. They couldn't see why the NA's weren't happy on their new

ViragoWitch:

reservations. They began to arrest NA leaders. In the fall of 1890, the army moved west to stop the Ghost Dancing.

ViragoWitch:

This next part will be a review of what you learned in American History {g}

ViragoWitch:

When Chief Sitting Bull resisted arrest, a skirmish led to the Chief and 14 others being killed. Subsequently, 400 of Sitting Bull's followers fled to safety with the Sioux Chief Big Foot.

ViragoWitch:

Many Horses was an Oglala Sious medicine man, and a close friend of Sitting Bull's. He was an avid promoter of the Ghost Dance as the last defense against the white man

ViragoWitch:

He organized the Sioux..to dance away the white soldiers who were camped in the hills. At dawn, the white tents of the army were still visible, and they knew their magic had failed.

ViragoWitch:

Dec 1890- the US Army, anticipating a massive Ghost Dance, sent a cavalry division to surround an encampment of Teton Sioux at Wounded Knee Creek, at Pine Ridge , South Dakota

ViragoWitch:

What happened next, is still in dispute,.

ViragoWitch:

When the soldiers began disarming the Indians...a shot was fired...at the soldiers. Many believe the shot was deliberate. Many more believe that a gun accidentally discharged.

ViragoWitch:

The cavalry then turned its artillery on the Sioux. Over 300 Sioux, and 25 soldiers died in that massacre, The Battle of Wounded Knee...The Ghost Dance had failed.

ViragoWitch:

One Sioux witness recalled later: "We tried to run, but they shot us like buffalo. I know there are some good white people, but the soldiers must be mean to shoot children and women"

ViragoWitch:

The Wounded Knee massacre was not the most tragic defeat suffered by NA's during the 19th century...

ViragoWitch:

But it did shatter the Sioux hope for a return for the life they had known.

ViragoWitch:

Gradually...the US Government settled the "Indian Problem"- most believe that the Ghost Dance died by the turn of the century.

ViragoWitch:

As I mentioned earlier..there was a resurgence of the Ghost Dance in the 1970s... with the militant American Indian Movement {AIM}

Nestor11:

Virago Witch -- I am finding your information/class most interesting --but let be real --the violence was not all one sided nor were either party totally without ulterior motives

ViragoWitch:

Most here probably remember Wounded Knee, Part II. In 1973, when AIM leader Russell Means and 300 followers held a 70 day occupation of Wounded Knee

Stringmaster:

Indeed, the US policy regarding Native Americans throughout the 19th century was guided by Sheridan's racism and cultural misunderstanding which lead to disaster

ViragoWitch:

Folks- can we please hold discussion for a few more minutes? I'm not finished quite yet..and I do hate being interrupted {G}

Stringmaster:

ok

Nestor11:

sure

ViragoWitch:

Ok..whether or not any Ghost Dancers remain is an issue in dispute

ViragoWitch:

PanIndianism is a lot more effective these days...also a lot less violent.

ViragoWitch:

For the most part, the Ghost Dance has faded into brief mention in history books... and

performances at NA Cultural festivals.

ViragoWitch:

Ok... *NOW* I'll open discussion

RebbelleRose:

::and sudden silence falls on the room::

ViragoWitch:

::drops pin::

PAniteowl:

{drat .. wish I hadn't come late}

Nestor11:

VW -- PanIndiaism in the 1880 -1890 was just as racially motivated as Sherman misguided policies -- let not whitewash that fact

DelaChenaie:

The movement out of the Black Hills had the intent to remove the the indians from the gold laden areas

RebbelleRose:

Okay.. I have a comment actually, when discussing the Ghost Dance in my anthro class this last semester, there was some question whether it was actually a white man who fired the shot to start the killing..

Kildeer:

Nestor ..I agree that the violence was not one-sided, but lets face it... you would have fought back too if there were armies marched against you and slaughtering your families....

ViragoWitch:

Rebbie- I've heard that speculation, too.

RebbelleRose:

::nods::and if you were forced off your home- I would probably be pretty violent too..

melilot:

not me i'd walk away calmly and just let them take it

Nestor11:

of course Kildeer --but then there is no real difference between that and any other war of conquest and occupation since the beginning of time

melilot:

{EG}

RebbelleRose:

But wasn't the G.D. mostly a PEACEFUL demonstration {that'st he way my anthro book made it out.. }

RebbelleRose:

sure Mel.. {G}

PAniteowl:

And was it really ignorance or avarice that caused the whole thing?

Stringmaster:

One problem with the relations between white americans and native americans is that certain cultural aspects, such a s the mutilation of an opponents body, were considered abhorrent by the us citizens

ViragoWitch:

Rebbie-

DelaChenaie:

a man named wavoka began the religion

RebbelleRose:

yeah VW?

Nestor11:

no Rebbelle Rose -the Ghost Dance was a mixing of religion and political goals

ViragoWitch:

Well... if you were the Federal gov't..you were rather scared of the NA's to begin with..and when they start dancing and chanting about getting rid of the white man..you get nervous.

Kildeer:

Rose.. that has always been in question.. and lets also not forget.. that it was the 7th calvary who pursued Bigfoot's clan and killed them.... many believed then it was deliberate

ViragoWitch:

Thanks, Dela..his name had slipped my mind.

RebbelleRose:

Okay.. sorry..{G} I only know {on this one} from my anthro book, so I'm trying to bring back what I remember from that..

DelaChenaie:

goal was throw out the people who were killing the buffaloe, and putting up fences, and plowing the land and cutting the trees

SeeAngels:

I think that the bloodshed on both sides was alarming but what was worse was the fact that the whites did not accept any other way than theirs

Stringmaster:

Indeed virago

ViragoWitch:

Many people also speculate that Wounded Knee was just revenge for Custer

ViragoWitch:

Owl- I'd like to go back to what you said a minute ago

Nestor11:

both sides added to the horrors of the conflict --it seem to be fact ignored in many 'politically correct' history course today

Kildeer:

Dela, that is a very simplistic view of what was happening..

ViragoWitch:

Ignorance vs. Avarice.

DelaChenaie:

that is the indian view

PAniteowl:

But isn't this the same as the purges of the middle ages, and the pogroms of the Jews? .. and the Burning times???

ViragoWitch:

We can draw a lot of parallels between this and the Burning Times

Red Deer:

has there ever been a war in which both sides did NOT commit atrocities?

Kildeer:

agreed

SeeAngels:

very true

PAniteowl:

yes, VW

PAniteowl:

yep RD

DelaChenaie:

and the cutting of the sacred forests

melilot:

both sides added to the horrors but the fact remains it was THEIR land and the white man

wanted it at any cost

Red Deer:

Aye, PA... I agree that is what we did

Nestor11:

yes unfortunately this seem to be one of the common negative traits of human societies

DelaChenaie:

of europe the great forest

ViragoWitch:

I'm sure we've all heard the phrase "those who do not remember the past, are likely to repeat it"

Red Deer:

no argument meli

PAniteowl:

yes, VW .. and some want to rewrite it {G}

SeeAngels:

because as long as people do not accept other ways than their own there will be bloodshed

Red Deer:

that impulse is old as history itself PA...

ViragoWitch:

Now.. I'm not suggesting that anyone decide to hold a 70 day occupation of...say, your YMCA

melilot:

as long as there are people on this earth there will be bloodshed it's in our very nature

Red Deer:

Ramses the Great had other Pharoahs' names removed from their monuments and his inserted

PAniteowl:

No SeeAngels .. it is more than that ... it boils down to "I want what you got, so therefore ..you're the bad guy!"

Nestor11:

indeed melitot --but it is only recently that mankind as a whole had started to re -examine

the concept of land by conquest -- until very recently and event today some nations still view it as legal

melilot:

and i'll use whatever means i need to to "justify" it to myself PA {G}

PAniteowl:

Nestor, there are those in ALL nations who do that

SeeAngels:

i dont think it is our "nature" for we all are children of the light, I think that when we forget that we get in trouble

Nestor11:

look at what Israel is going today in the mid-East and you see the same pattern of human behavior

PAniteowl:

{G} Yeah Meli .. that's the truth !! {G}

Red Deer:

i think we should re-examine the entire concept of conquest... what good does it do us?

DelaChenaie:

we need to discuss our relationship to the land

melilot:

see we must "shed blood" to continue our very life force

ViragoWitch:

I did that today, Meli!

DelaChenaie:

and what wavoka prophesied

PAniteowl:

Look at Ireland .. Bosnia .. Middle East ... our own inner cities

Red Deer:

angels, I think we are all just children and we choose whether to be of the dark or the light

DelaChenaie:

that a white buffaloe would be born

Nestor11:

yes PA I agree

Kildeer:

The other point here is to remember that the land by conquest had been given and signed in Treaty by the Govt... and given forever.....

DelaChenaie:

and the buffaloe would return

Red Deer:

aye

DelaChenaie:

and the ground would rollup..and all that was of the wasichu would be gone

Kildeer:

only when Custer found gold did they feel the need to bring in the ursurpers, They would not sign to relinquish the land... and that is what it all boiled down to....

DelaChenaie:

except the train,

ViragoWitch:

For example... the Ft Lamarie treaty of 1868-

melilot:

forever is only as long as that gov is there to see that it happens new gov new rules

DelaChenaie:

because wavoka liked trains

SeeAngels:

I agree Dela, when we forget that the same "force" runs thru everthing we loose the respect that we should have...

PAniteowl:

We're all still trying to protect our "territories", .. even the "gangs" have the same mentality.

Nestor11:

KIldeer --I am not saying that the actions of the US governemnt are acceptable by our standards today

Kildeer:

Great example VW.... : ]

ViragoWitch:

it created the Great Sioux reservation...which was all of South Dakota...west of the Mississippi River

SeeAngels:

by any standards

DelaChenaie:

they were trying to tell us that the earth will outlast us

Kildeer:

and they werent acceptable even then.....

ViragoWitch:

in exchange for the land the Sioux currently occupied.

MikeMJohnson:

People need to stop thinking in terms of "my property" "my land" "my country" because it's "our earth" and none of it can ever be yours or mine.

ViragoWitch:

Tell that to the IRS

Nestor11:

but it seem that most human cultures though out history had had these ideas of control of an area by force

MikeMJohnson:

Time changes all things.

PAniteowl:

hmmm .. tell that to my Tax assessor Mike

SeeAngels:

we let the IRS become...

DelaChenaie:

and what we do to it determines whether we all live or die

Nestor11:

did not tribe fight tribe over hunting grounds

PAniteowl:

yep, Nes

DelaChenaie:

a ghost shirt protected the wearer from the bullets because the grandfathers were to be there

Nestor11:

perhpas it is time that we stop trying to fix blame and rather work on fixing the problem

ViragoWitch:

Thank you, Nestor....

PAniteowl:

Hurrah for Nestor!! .. YES!!!

x Pale Hawk:

Exactly

SeeAngels:

Good Show, Nes

x Pale Hawk:

But, how?

Kildeer:

tribe fighting does not compare to genocide

Nestor..... and that is what the GOvt was aiming for...

ViragoWitch:

At which point... I'd like to tell y'all to drop by Owl's thread "Anger, a tool?" on the Religion Concourse 2 BB, Wicca Topic, and add your imput

DelaChenaie:

lets fix it, let us all find the whisperings of that which continues life

melilot:

i think all the land should just return all the land they took after the first treaty the gov violated a signed contract so any later contracts should be nul

DelaChenaie:

the streambeds and the oaks they work as filter and are sacred

PAniteowl:

Thanks for the plug VW {G}

DelaChenaie:

and should not be cut

Nestor11:

if you remember in the UN Charter it says that since wars begin in the minds of men that is where we must stop them

PAniteowl:

So, Dela .. what are you doing about it?

ViragoWitch:

My pleasure, Owl. : }

DelaChenaie:

wars are started over farm land

melilot:

but they won't allow lobotomies on the leaders of all the nations nestor

DelaChenaie:

i am politically active

ViragoWitch:

I like that idea, Meli

DelaChenaie:

I do something how about you

Nestor11:

wars are started over many reasons

PAniteowl:

Yes Dela ... and have done for many years

DelaChenaie:

i dont just talk

melilot:

wars are started because of differences and needs

MikeMJohnson:

There's never a need for a war.

Nestor11:

and sometime you do come across times and places where you MUST fight

ViragoWitch:

I'd say "wants", not "needs"

SeeAngels:

do you guys remember the 60 saying...what would happen if there was a war and nobody came?

Kildeer:

Dela.. are you implying that we all just talk... and you are special because you get out???

DelaChenaie:

was are started over resources

PAniteowl:

Yes Nes ... sadly.

melilot:

oh yes war is needed to purify the land of overpopulation

DelaChenaie:

europe was over crowded

MikeMJohnson:

It's not needed, there's other ways besides war.

Nestor11:

are you willing to accept another Hitler or Stalin or Mao???

ViragoWitch:

Naw... a good plague works better, Meli