Red Deer:

I'll ward the door unless you prefer someone else

ZENMASTER:

be my guest. thank you

Red Deer:

Do all agree to exclude disrupters without comment?

melilott:

yeppers

PAniteowl:

yep

gongyhead:

yes

Annwyn:

Yes

PaleHawk:

sure do Red Deer

MagicFigures:

Y

melilott:

i got my gag on today

Pixelite:

yes

Red Deer:

OK, Zen will be talking with us about Magick and Physics

ZENMASTER:

shall we begin?

Red Deer:

the floor is yours, Zen

ZENMASTER:

Merry Meet and Blessed Be to all! A funny thing happened on the way to class (G)... I was such a good boy and made all these macros... and then i erased them all. It occurred to me that I'd rather play this live than lecture like some damned professor(G)...

PAniteowl:

(groan)

Red Deer:

(LOL)

ZENMASTER:

So, from now on, it's free typing.

Annwyn:

Live it is

Herne:

poor Zen,

Red Deer:

go for it Zen

PaleHawk:

yipes... Zen

ZENMASTER:

I suppose we all learned to think of things as being made of atoms... and spirits being made of some other arcane thing, like "ether"

Herne:

either this or that :}

ZENMASTER:

yep Herne (G), and we learned to think of atoms, which make all things, to be like miniature solar systems...

Red Deer:

mostly space

ZENMASTER:

electrons orbiting the nucleus, etc... aye... mostly space, but the newer discoveries in physics go deeper yet in undermining the previously held truths of physical matter, and the universe in which we live. Even the great Einstein backed off from what has proven to be the truth through meticulous and repeatable experimentation...

Herne:

Zen, do we hold questions till after?

ZENMASTER:

just for a bit... almost done with presenting the initial thing...

ZENMASTER:

which is... not only does God play dice with the universe, he throws them where we cant see them. ok for now... question, Hernmeister?

Herne:

OK Zen, what is the "predominent conception of the composition of reality?"

ZENMASTER:

depends on who you are, I'm sure...

Herne:

Generally speaking...

ZENMASTER:

from the standpoint of classical science, like we learned in school?

Herne:

yes

PAniteowl:

Zen, although we don't individually "Know" all things, there is an underlying knowledge of our world as a special construct of many parts ... yes?

ZENMASTER:

not to be too dry and technical... the composition of matter is that all substances in the observable universe are made of atoms

Herne:

Thank you

ZENMASTER:

and those little building blocks make up everything else. they cannot be created or destroyed, etc... ok?

melilott:

but what are electrons, protons, & neutrons made of?

Red Deer:

works for me, as a classical view at least

ZENMASTER:

PA... if you are talking about the intuitive knowledge that goes with science, yes indeed.

PAniteowl:

yep

ZENMASTER:

mel... the new physics says: they're made of quarks. quarks are made of probability waves. pure energy.

melilott:

ok

ZENMASTER:

they do not demonstrate an existence... they only show us tendencies to exist.

PAniteowl:

which can not be created nor destroyed, yet changeable

ZENMASTER:

and are only observable in their interactions with other particles.

ZENMASTER:

Now, what does this remind you of?

PAniteowl:

WEB

Pixelite:

energy that we can tap??

Red Deer:

you mean they are implicate rather than explicate?

Herne:

On the prime material plane we deal with the physical forces of gravity, magnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces.

ZENMASTER:

PA. yep in a way... pixie... yep, in a way... Red Deer... yep in a way... . (ROFLMAO) Herne... yes, in a way

PAniteowl:

Are we all blind ... looking at an elephant Zen???? (g)

ZENMASTER:

however, the macrocosmic world has little use for these theories, no?

Red Deer:

except those who want to either practice (or deny) magick... depending upon the theory (more classical vs more quantum)

Herne:

"As above so below"

ZENMASTER:

But it's funny how, in looking for the very fundamental substance of matter, thereby learning all we can about the world around us, that we end up with empty hands. Ah, but the mind is full of questions... and experimentation shows that matter has its non-physical counterpart. matter, is now, by definition, energy that "wants"to be bound in a matrix so tight it seems solid

Annwyn:

wants as in desire?

ZENMASTER:

what does this do to our world view? to find that all things are reachable, if we could just learn how... comments?

PAniteowl:

but Zen, magic has done that for centuries

Red Deer:

agreed... but for millennia, at least

ZENMASTER:

PA... i'm talking about that very thing... that science has come around to the same point... i think it's exciting

Red Deer:

very!

PAniteowl:

YES!!!!

Herne:

Zen, the attitude of science does not change public consciousness, for a long while and the experiments you mention are in a pioneering stage, it is social attitudes that the world view consists of, those take a very long time to change

Annwyn:

basically science is beginning to prove what we have been doing all along...

PAniteowl:

Yep!!

Annwyn:

not only plausible. but by its nature part of this energy process

ZENMASTER:

and the scientific discoveries that will occur in the new millennia, i believe, will reflect the marriage of these two seemingly different views

Pixelite:

Any sufficiently advanced tecknology will be viewed as "magic"??? OWTTE...

ZENMASTER:

and, hopefully, as Wiccans, you can all share in the continuing evolution of spirit, as well

Red Deer:

depending on the viewer's level of technology, many have been viewed so over historical times... many aboriginals still view photography as magic.

Pixelite:

As in they will start to tap this "unseen" force scientifically that others have long known to exist, but not proven...

PAniteowl:

yes Pix... just look at the technology we're all using today

ZENMASTER:

aye, pix... long has it been the downfall of spiritual things that there is no macrocosmic proof... but i'm not sure that's what were after, anyway

Annwyn:

there is a theory that it is our own biological evolution... that as our brain itself evolved we moved away from the natural functions of the universe. which then became magic...

Herne:

Any dynamic system has the four aspects of force, pattern, activity and form. The exercise of Magick is no different. I think it very important and also the most requiring explanation that when you are doing a class on something this esoteric that you begin by defining your terms, otherwise you may find that people will not understand really what you are

Annwyn:

coinciding also with the shift from matriarchal to patriarchal. thus where science before simply was part of our consciousness. we began to question and poke and prod

ZENMASTER:

aye Herne... that's it... the parallels between the two are getting to be pretty undeniable

Herne:

talking about

Red Deer:

I think we always questioned, poked and prodded... just more gently seeking to understand through inference and joining, rather than through breaking down and deducing

Herne:

You have to remember that this is Wicca 101 and realize that some here just do not share an understanding of the concepts being put forward here in this presentation of yours

Annwyn:

yes. . religion as a way to understand our experience here... but it became more from a point of disbelief

Annwyn:

Yes Red

PAniteowl:

UH... gee Zen ... I thought we were all following pretty well

ZENMASTER:

i thought so too, PA

Red Deer:

me too, Zen... and any who need may ask questions

ZENMASTER:

of course

PAniteowl:

Am enjoying this Zen, thanks

Annwyn:

Yeps from this one

Pixelite:

I like it Zen. (g)

Red Deer:

please continue, Zen

ZENMASTER:

the main point of this class has always been to share and demonstrate the parallels that exist between the new physics, and views the mystics have held for centuries. to me it is a way to perhaps accelerate one's evolution by allowing his or her intuitive side to come closer to what our rational side sees every day

PAniteowl:

It's interesting that the terminology used (ie Web Site) is familiar to us

Red Deer:

not just the WWW, much of the language of physics makes sense (magickally)

Annwyn:

That it cannot be destroyed... that nothing in the universe is ever lost...

Herne:

Yes Red Deer, it does,

ZENMASTER:

i am aware that something like physics can be rather dry and technical, but it might be worth the effort to understand some of it for the preceding purpose.

PAniteowl:

yes, but not everyone was really great in "Physics" ... like me (g)

Annwyn:

I like the point of the tendencies to exist Zen...

Herne:

My socks are gone, forever, pairs divided (sob)

Annwyn:

I see this as the energy being available to us undefined also. ready to be changed

Red Deer:

agreed, Zen

WiseWitch:

Ann, I've lost some car keys that I SWEAR are no longer in this universe...

Annwyn:

they are there... WW

PAniteowl:

(g) WW

Annwyn:

I lost a shoe. maybe they are in the same place

ZENMASTER:

Ann... that's a good point...

Annwyn:

It's a red shoe

Red Deer:

maybe they aren't, WW, but they might come back (g)

PAniteowl:

ROFL

ZENMASTER:

ok, so we have all things being made of energy, now.

Annwyn:

Also the tendency part means to me that anything is possible

PAniteowl:

yes Zen... sorry

Herne:

As I stated earlier; every dynamic system has within it the four aspects of force, pattern, activity and form. Magick, all magick is performed on the level of the imagination, it is our

Annwyn:

this desire... or want... that all things are connected...

Herne:

knowledge of system dynamics that allow us to achieve results. On the prime material plane we deal with the physical forces of gravity, magnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces.

melilott:

ok and tapping non solid energy is magic ?

Red Deer:

um, folks, perhaps we should let Zen continue

ZENMASTER:

it will help mystics to focus more clearly, in my opinion, when they understand that the dichotomy of spirit vs. matter has been erased, for all intents and purposes,

Herne:

Earth to Zen, do you copy?

Annwyn:

the same energy is in all just different

ZENMASTER:

by their former worst critics, to boot!

PAniteowl:

Hear Hear!

Red Deer:

I tend to see it as a duality, rather than dichotomy, Zen

Herne:

The Churches still maintain it

ZENMASTER:

aye, Herne, they do indeed ... they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo Red... it is a duality... people make it a dichotomy(G)

ZENMASTER:

so, what does all this have to do with Wicca?

PAniteowl:

everything

ZENMASTER:

does anything occur to you all?

Red Deer:

everything!

Herne:

it is our knowledge of system dynamics that allow us to achieve results.

Red Deer:

we have had the 'correct' world view all along!

ZENMASTER:

aye, that was my thought too (G)

Herne:

The Craft is both a faith and a craft, together it is a way. The art and techniques of at least low magick can be taught in theory on line, it is not however the policy of my trad to make certain knowledge available to just anyone. Magick is not for all, that is why within my coven we have degrees, one of the reasons, we feel obligated to verify each individual prepared and that they will act responsibly be fore we give them the knowledge to do much magick. Otherwise it would be the equivalent of giving an angry teenager a loaded gun. I think that there is enough of that going on already, don't you?

ZENMASTER:

right, Herne...

PAniteowl:

(g)

ZENMASTER:

a well-defined male principle to manipulate a well-defined female principle... neat!

Red Deer:

Herne, could we stick to Zen's topic?

ZENMASTER:

that's a grey area i'm not very sure of

Herne:

I was Red Deer

Pixelite:

But, Herne, who decides who should learn what??? You?? Me?? some Them??

Herne:

a loaded gun. I think that there is enough of that going on already, don't you?

Herne:

oops

Herne:

a loaded gun. I think that there is enough of that going on already, don't you?

ZENMASTER:

So, as we were saying, science is now on our side, so to speak. what do we do with it?

Red Deer:

Herne, please stop using macros in someone else's class

Herne:

sorry, macro went nuts

Herne:

Red, those were accidents

Freinsch:

Herne, Zen is leading the discussion. If he feels comfortable in passing on info, that is his business.

Red Deer:

I feel macros inappropriate to anyone but the teacher... we are here to discuss his ideas

ZENMASTER:

We might study the new science and learn all we can hold... while continuing our spiritual studies...

Herne:

Red, when Zen has a problem I am sure that he will say something

ZENMASTER:

and also, as part of the growth we seek, find the parallels between the two, to achieve a more holistic viewpoint. anyone like that idea?

PAniteowl:

seems to make sense Zen

Red Deer:

YES

PaleHawk:

yes

Freinsch:

Roger that Zen

PAniteowl:

I think we do that a lot

melilott:

yep

Pixelite:

Makes a lot of sense Zen!

PAniteowl:

Thanks for bringing it to the forefront for discussion

ZENMASTER:

now, it is rather easy, surprisingly, to gain a good understanding of the points made here, through books

Annwyn:

also because technology is so much of a part of our lives and will continue to be so... for some an approach from science backwards... for some magic into science... this being again that marriage and integration thing

ZENMASTER:

books that are not for the scientist, but for you and me.

PAniteowl:

reading list Zen??? Homework???

melilott:

what books zen?

Herne:

Zen, books teach a lot, theory, what books are you reading?

ZENMASTER:

no, no homework(G)

PAniteowl:

(g)

ZENMASTER:

but i can certainly provide a good list to those who are interested

melilott:

me

PAniteowl:

yes, please

MagicFigures:

yes

Red Deer:

please E- it to me so I may add to the class log, Zen

Pixelite:

Please do Zen!

PAniteowl:

good idea RD

ZENMASTER:

books that deal with this very topic... the marriage of mysticism and science.

ZENMASTER:

ok will do, RD

Red Deer:

thanks

Herne:

Zen, have you done research yourself along these lines?

ZENMASTER:

yes, Herne

Herne:

methods, results, observances?

PAniteowl:

What we have called "Magic" is becoming a verifiable science... available to all... it's like being vindicated after years of persecution

ZENMASTER:

aye PA... it's what i wanted to share with you all... that any intelligent people who we may want in our camp either already know this or will learn gladly and quickly

Herne:

Magick is not for everyone, just like not everyone should have a gun, to easy to commit the "perfect crime" There is a severe shortage of police on the Astral

PAniteowl:

Is it any wonder we would be attacked, not only from without the craft, but from within too... from those who would be uncomfortable losing "magical" status?

ZENMASTER:

aye PA... marriage is always a bit tough(G)

Herne:

What are you saying PA?

PAniteowl:

(g)

ZENMASTER:

but i think it's the way things are going... it's simple evolution.

PAniteowl:

Yes Zen, but any change can make some uncomfortable

Pixelite:

I'm afraid that magic is for anyone... it's a force that exists... how are you going to stop someone you think can't handle it? You can't!

ZENMASTER:

So, maybe next week we could discuss the several ways in which we could make this knowledge available to Wicca, and improve the faith thereby.

MagicFigures:

sounds good

Pixelite:

Great ideas Zen! I've been following some of this already, and it is interesting to see others' ideas on it...

PaleHawk:

Zen... this is wonderful I like your ideas

Red Deer:

sounds great Zen

ZENMASTER:

any ideas , you can bring to class next week and share with everyone your own views.

PAniteowl:

good idea Zen, improve our teaching programs by stressing the universality

Freinsch:

Sounds good to me too

Herne:

We the teachers are responsible for more than just teaching, we are responsible for the welfare of our students in so much as how what they learn from us effects their lives and the lives of others whose lives are affected by our students application of the knowledge and techniques that they learn from us. "An it Harm None, Do as Thou Wilt, "

PAniteowl:

Remembering that the natural forces were practiced... were not considered negative or "magic" til others termed them so

ZENMASTER:

i always liked Wicca during my years in it for that reason... there were very few limits.

Red Deer:

a thousand thank yous for your time and efforts Zen, this has been illuminating

Freinsch:

Thanks Zen...

ZENMASTER:

I'm into breaking down the last one i know of... this long-standing battle between science and spirit.

Red Deer:

I think many - scientists even - are with you on that, Zen

ZENMASTER:

so i hope to see you all next week, and Blessed Be to all of you.

trishkit:

what battle? as far as science is concerned, spirit does not exist and therefore there is nothing to battle. (g)

Red Deer:

One of the wonderful things about Nursing is that's happening in the biomedical field PAniteowl:

BB Zen & thanks ... it was great!

ZENMASTER:

thanx for coming, and thanx Red Deer for the door thing. Red Deer:

Brightest Blessings & Merry Part {{{Zen}}} You are most welcome

PaleHawk:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Zen }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

MagicFigures:

BB and MP Zen

ZENMASTER:

{{{{{{{{{{Pale}}}}}}}}}}}}thank you!

PAniteowl:

BB & MP Zen melilott:

very good class

trishkit:

thanks for letting me eavesdrop on the discussion. it was very enlightening, and we all know that is always in short supply... take care, talk to you all soon

Cathbad:

I do wish I'd gotten here earlier.