The following diagrams are intended to facilitate discussion of the Wheel of the Year... (You'll need your viewer set to "fixed font" in order to view them.)

The Compass Points & Elements:

The Year in Halves - Increasing & Decreasing Light:

The Year in Halves - (longer nights) Dark and (days) Light:

The Year in Four Seasons, with the 5 Stations of Life:

The Year with Eight Sabbats for Witches:

Additional Correspondences (Day & Moon):

RED DEER:

Well, if I may have everyone's attention!

Cloudburst:

BEAUTIFUL diagrams!

Xori:

As Nestor said - RD's post is really wonderful - do take time to scope and/or print

Arcadea:

{-----------------------logging

RED DEER:

Nestor has agreed to ward the door for me...

Will you all PLEASE take a seat {g}?

Cloudburst:

{---sitting{G}

melilot:

{-------------sitting on nestor's lap

RED DEER:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{MORRIGAN}}}}}}}}}}}}} Blessed Be! How is little Tara? & Mommy, of course?

Nestor:

ok ChatHost Blessed be

melilot:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{chatty}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Morrigan:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Red Deer}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Xori:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{chatty}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Morrigan:

Merry Meet All!

Arcadea:

{-----------------sitting on Meli on Nestor

RED DEER:

We were just about to start, Morrigan... do you plan to ward?

Morrigan:

Don't know how long I'll be able to be here... but here's hoping it's for the whole class

Morrigan:

I hadn't planned on it RD... just to "host". No sign of VW?

RED DEER:

Nestor... would you please remain backup if Morrigan has to leave?

Nestor:

ah nuts-- (putting way his M-16 EXCLUDE button) Chatties have all the fun

Nestor:

oh OK

Xori:

Nope chatty

RED DEER:

Well, in that case, Morrigan, perhaps Nestor could keep them

(his M-16s)

OK - does everyone remember class etiquette?

melilot:

{----is always in use of etiquette

Cloudburst:

yup

Rhaevynn:

{-----logged on

RED DEER:

I would like to begin by quoting Starhawk, from her book "The Spiral Dance. "

"Winter, Spring, Summer, Autumn - birth, growth, fading, death - the Wheel turns, on and on. Ideas are born, projects are consumated, plans prove impractical and die. We fall in love; we suffer loss; we consumate relationships; we give birth; we grow old; we decay. "

"The Sabbats are the eight points at which we connect the inner and the outer cycles: the interstices where the seasonal, the celestial, the communal, the creative, and the personal all meet. As we enact each drama in its time, we transform ourselves. We are renewed, we are reborn even as we decay and die. We are not separate from each other, from the broader world around us; we are one with the Goddess, with the God. As the Cone of Power rises as the season changes, we arouse the power from within, the power to heal, the power to change society, the power to renew the Earth. "

As we attempt to make sense of the Turning Wheel, and sort through the many mythological attributes associated with its spokes (the Eight Sabbats), we frequently become confused due to the plethora of images associated with each spoke and their seeming contradictions. We must, in this venture, recognize that the Wheel itself represents many things: the Wheel of the Year, the Wheel of Lunations, the Wheel of Day & Night, the Wheel of the Seasons of Life, and - perhaps most importantly - the Cosmic Wheel of Dark & Light, of Chaos & Order, of Destruction & Creation. For millenia these Wheels have been represented as either four- or eight- spoked, depending upon the culture and time from which the particular symbols arose.

We ask, "When is the Lord, the Sun-King, conceived??? Born??? When is He sacrificed??? And by Whom??? Does the Lady, the Moon-Queen, Herself undergo such seemingly mortal transformations??? Or, does She merely sleep through the labor of Winter, awaiting the return of Her Son / Lover???" If our religion is truly ancient and is internally consistent - as many authorities upon ancient religion and upon the human psyche, from Frazer and Graves to Jung, maintain - how have so many seeming contradictions arisen within its symbolism? Are they faults of our perception, or of history, or are there deeper magicks at work here? While I will not pretend to answer all of these questions for you, I do hope to provide information which may lead each of you to synthesize answers for yourself. I believe that, as with much of our religion, there is no single correct answer. The right answer for any given individual is that which s/he synthesizes based upon inquiry, knowledge, understanding of the climate within which s/he lives, and - of paramount importance - upon a personal tutelary relationship with the Divine as manifest in Nature.

Does anyone have questions about this so far? ... ... ... If not, I'll continue...

felio:

yes what was the question

RED DEER:

not sure, felio... I'm asking if YOU have any questions.

Ok, well...

felio:

does the moon have anything to do with this

RED DEER:

I hope that each of you have assayed the diagrams I posted on the BB in preparation for this class... I, personally, find much of this information far more easily dealt with when visualized. For those of you who have not, I will summarize. First, the Wheel itself. A simple circle. Imagine the compass points - North at top, East to right, South at bottom, and West to left. The Five Sacred Things are easily superimposed (although here, may be contradictions in that various traditions of magick place the elements in different locations): North = Earth, East = Air, South = Fire, and West = Water. The fifth? Spirit = Center.

yes, felio... the moon & the sun, the stars & the seasons

In order to decrease some of the confusion, let's also delineate the Eight Sabbats by some of their names, and by just what they represent either seasonally or astronomically:

YULE - Winter Solstice,
The Day Outside the Year,
Longest Night of the Year,
Encompassed by Days of Death & Birth,
(hence a three-day MidWinter Festival),
Alban Arthuan;

IMBOLG - First Day of Spring,
Winter Ends,
Imbolic, Brigid, Brigantia, Candlemas;

EOSTAR - Vernal Equinox,
Day Comes to Equal Night,
Eostre, Alban Eilir;

BELTAIN - First Day of Summer,
Spring Ends,
Bealtuin, May Eve;

LITHA - Summer Solstice,
The Hinge of the Year,
Longest Day of the Year,
MidSummer, Alban Hefin;

LAMMAS - Last Day of Summer,
Autumn Begins,
Lughnasadh, Loafmass;

MABON - Autumnal Equinox,
Night Comes to Equal Day,
Alban Elfed;

SAMHAIN - Last Day of Autumn,
Winter Begins,
Samhuin, All Soul's Eve, New Year's Eve.

RED DEER:

Now, let's correspond the Solar Nodes with their spokes on the Wheel:
North = Yule / Winter Solstice,
East = Eostar / Vernal (Spring) Equinox,
South = Litha / Summer Solstice, and
West = Mabon / Autumnal Equinox.
The Seasonal Modes, or Cross-Quarter Days, fall between and are determined by the Solar Nodes, such that:
North-East = Imbolg,
South-East = Beltain,
South-West = Lammas, and
North-West = Samhain.
A semantic (but not entirely) point: one of the modern conventions we must release in coming to understand the Wheel is that of beginnings. Due to the influence of patriarchalized religion, we tend to view SUNRISE as beginning the day (or midnight, in clock-terms)... The ancients most certainly did NOT. The day BEGINS with sunset. In like fashion, the (solar) year begins with the evening following the last day of Autumn (Samhain - if you're Celtic) or with the evening following the last day of summer (Mabon - in more solar oriented cultures), or with the evening of the Winter Solstice (Yule - for primarily solar Pagansims).

Seasons, however, were not recognized as beginning and ending upon the Solar Nodes as is current practice; rather, the Solar Nodes represented the height of a given season (hence Yule = MIDwinter and Litha = MIDsummer) while the Cross-Quarter Days stood at their beginnings and endings. In my personal cosmology symmetry (a very important concept to the ancients) about the Yule-Litha axis of the Year indicates that:
Imbolg is the First Day of Spring,
Beltain the First Day of Summer,
Lammas the Last Day of Summer, and
Samhain the Last Day of Autumn.
First Days for the beginnings of Ascendency and Last Days for the ends of Ascendency / Beginnings of Descendency.

Before I explain my meanings for ascendent and descendent, a few comments on the Sabbats themselves. The Greater Sabbats or Fire Festivals, occuring upon the Seasonal Modes, are associated with the Lady and are Lunar. The Lesser Sabbats, occuring upon the Solar Nodes (solstices and equinoxes) are associated with the Lord and are Solar. Celtic practice ostensibly did not include the Lesser Sabbats; however, they must have been observed astronomically in order to determine the dates for the Greater Sabbats. This is consistent with the fact that pre-Celtic megalithic cultures across Western Europe (including the Isles) aligned their observatory / temples with the Solar Nodes. Knowledge of the Lesser Sabbats was almost certainly a part of Celtic cosmology, as the Celts continued to use these monuments and could not, with any astronomical savvy, have been unaware of these major alignments. Observance of the Minor Sabbats also flows with the symbolism of Lady and Cauldron as the Source of All, and Lord and Blade as the Light Which Brings Reason to Creation. The Lady is the All-Encompassing Darkness; the Lord is the Illuminating Flame. Like dusk and dawn (where the darkness meets the light) or seafoam (where the sea meets the shore), the Equinoxes are between times - times of great magick. Like midnight and noon (where darkness and light each turn toward the other) or new moon and full moon (where waning and waxing begin) the Solstices are both maximal and between times - times of great magickal power. I can not accept that Celtic religion made no use of these times, regardless of the lack of Christianized records to support this belief.

Now, before we get into actually splitting the year... are there any questions?

Are folks still with me???

Xori:

sure am

Nestor:

yep RD sure are

Morrigan:

still with you Red

RED DEER:

Or are you all hiding out in the attic {vbeg}?

Cloudburst:

oh yeah

IrishGypsy:

Great lesson

melilot:

i'm not hiding

Cloudburst:

I mean, with you{G}

felio:

yea what your saying is that for every beginning there is an ending ... and those events are the most powerful

RED DEER:

OK, then without questions, I'll go on!

well, not actually felio - although I don't disagree with that statement

I'm saying that between times are - throughout mythology - recognized as times of great power and magick...

felio:

then what are you saying

RED DEER:

and that the solstices and equinoxes are such times upon the wheel of the year

KK Hill:

ok... one more time...

Azael:

I have a question.

RED DEER:

yes, Azael?

Azael:

What makes the cross quarter days, to be days of power? Is there any significance in the wheel of the year other than marking a halfway point?

Nestor:

that they are usually considered 'a time that is not a time, in a place that is not a place, speperate and apart' - felio --that is waht gives then the context to move between the world

felio:

i need tutoring

RED DEER:

actually, they mark the beginnings and endings of seasons, Az... NOT the solstices & equinoxes as we moderns do

Azael:

What do you mean by "as we moderns do"?

PAniteowl:

comment?

RED DEER:

felio - at the Winter Solstice, the sun is poised between decreasing lengths of day and increasing lengths of day... a between time

Az... if you study any modern calendar, you'll find 21 December listed as the first day of winter... in the ancient calendar it is MIDwinter

RED DEER:

go PA

PAniteowl:

as a fulcrum is a point of balance

RED DEER:

aye...

PAniteowl:

so the turning is a point of no decision it is an opening where choices are so finely tuned that all things are possible

Azael:

So what is their relation to time and the year as we view it today rather than as it used to be viewed?

Xori:

like a gateway

RED DEER:

hence, a time of GREAT power and magick

PAniteowl:

yes Xori, exactly

RED DEER:

aye, Xori

Cloudburst:

beautiful, Owl

PAniteowl:

Yes RD ...

Morrigan:

Please use the exclude button for disruptive members.

PAniteowl:

When the fulcrum is poised, all things are possible, even the improbable such is the times of great workings you can step outside the paths

felio:

then when was the beginig of winter

PAniteowl:

yet still be very much within the wheel

RED DEER:

Azael... modern calendars use the solstices & equinoxes as the first days of seasons... old calendars use the cross-quarter days as the first of seasons... completely different reckoning

Samhain was the last day of Autumn / beginning of winter

PAniteowl:

and as the fulcrum point is so fragile, a bit of "nudging" can indeed have far reaching effects

RED DEER:

if I get back to it, I think I'll be answering some of these questions...

may I continue?

PAniteowl:

sorry {G}

Cloudburst:

go RD

Morrigan:

please do Red

Aziel:

=)

Xori:

yes please RD

RED DEER:

We must recognize that the year may be split in twain in two apposed manners. Since each of these represent solar (light vs dark) seasonality, the Solar Nodes determine these "ages". The year may be divided through the Equinoctial Nodes: Autumnal to Vernal (Mabon to Eostar) = the Age of Dark (all of the days of the year when hours of night exceed the hours of day) and Vernal to Autumnal (Eostar to Mabon) = the Age of Light (all of the days of the year when hours of day exceed the hours of night). Alternately, the year may be divided through the Solsticial Nodes: Summer to Winter (Litha

felio:

cross quater days

to Yule) = the Age of Dark's Ascendence (and Light's Descendence - all of the days of the year when the length of night is increasing) and Winter to Summer (Yule to Litha) = the Age of Light's Ascendance (all of the days of the year in which the length of day is increasing). These divisions, when superimposed give rise to a year of four seasons - a year only truly experienced in temperate climates. But why should these means of splitting the Wheel, of dividing the year, matter to us? Indeed, there are more - such as the Celtic two-season split between Sahmain and Beltain. And, each culture, with its own seasonal derivations based upon the unique climate in which it developed, upon pastoral vs

felio:

what aare those

RED DEER:

agrarian nature, and upon countless other influences, evolved a view of the Wheel which made local sense. Only we "moderns" seek to find a unified understanding of that which is - by the very nature of the Earth Herself - multivariate. WE want a single cosmology which is correct for every Wiccan and Pagan even as we decry that there is no one, true Path. WE seek to make singular sense of the seasonal cycles inherent to the Wheel, and forget that others' sense may be dramatically different. As an example, I will note that we tend to totally ignore that 21 December is the SUMMER Solstice in the Southern Hemisphere and that all the other Nodes and Modes are similarly rotated by 180 degrees. However, I believe that these differences are inherent to the very nature of our religion, and extend to far more subtle levels than this "obvious" one. The two-season model is prevalent in tropical, subtropical and pastoral temperate cultures. The Celtic year is temperate and pastoral - cattle out to summer pasture after Beltain and back to winter pasture at Samhain. Agrarian cultures tend to split the year into quarters - fields are planted, tended, harvested and lain dormant; giving rise to Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter.

Of course, over the past several milenia, few if any cultures have been completely pastoral or agrarian; hence, there are many blends of the old religious symbols to be found. And here-in arises the confusion we experience regarding the many representations of each Sabbat. Wicca = Wisdom, or the Way of the Wise. And inherent to that wisdom is an understanding of balance. But through our spectacles of modern acculturation we tend to find balance in dyads - Goddess & God, female & male, night & day. In this view, we tend toward a single God - born at Yule, coming into his power at Eostar, resplendent in His marriage to the Goddess and His family at Litha, in repose with the knowledge of a continued future at Mabon, and dying to be reborn at Yule. Here, we may superimpose the Five Stations of Life upon the Wheel, using the Lesser Sabbats. Remembering that, in many ancient cultures, the celebration of Yule spanned three days rather than one - and that Yule itself was the Day Outside the Year (which gave rise to the traditional reckonning of "a year and a day") the stations then become:
BIRTH - the first day after Yule (and third of the MidWinter celebration) when the Lord is born;
INITIATION - Eostar, when the Lord comes into full understanding of His relationship with the Lady;
UNION - Litha, when the Lady's and Lord's fecundity is evident;
REPOSE - Mabon, when the Lady and Lord take ease in the knowledge of coming renewal; and
DEATH - the last day before Yule (and first of the MidWinter celebration) which the Lord spends in the realm of darkness, sacrificed and lain in the Mother's womb to await rebirth.
Inclusion of the Cross-Quarter days enhaces the mythic cycle and, for me at least, slightly rearranges it:
Birth - the first day after Yule;
Quickening - Imbolg, when the Earth first stirs (our Camellias bloom) and the Infant Sun is assured of long life;
Initiation - Eostar, when the Lord is enlightened, receiving the Craneskin bag of tree-letters; Marriage / Comsumation - Beltain, when the Lady and Lord are joined; Union - Litha, when the Holy family is ascendent;
Foreshadowing - Lammas, when the Lord understands and accepts the burden of sacrifice;
Repose - Mabon, when Lady and Lord fully know what is to come;
Sacrifice - Samhain, when the Lord bleeds that life may return to the Earth;
Death - the Last Day Before Yule when the Lord lies fully within the sleeping Lady's womb awaiting rebirth; and
the Day Outside - Yule, when all the world turns on the whisper of the promise of renewal through the Lady's labor and the Lord's impending rebirth.

PLEASE note that this final set are my personal interpretations of the Wheel in the context of the Great Myth as I experience it. Many interpretations exist, and the symbolism of each should, IMO, be adjusted depending upon the seasonal cycle (climate) one experiences personally. Even given the expansiveness of my permission to interpret, seeming contridictions arise in studying the various attributes attached to the Sabbats. This may be due, in large part, to the dyadic view we have adopted because it fails to account for the TRIADIC nature of all relationships: namely, that a dyad resolves into a triad - You, Me and the Other. Many, if not most, ancient forms of Paganism represented this triad with a dyad of Gods juxtaposed in counterpoint to the Goddess. The Holly King or God of the Waning Year (Litha to Yule) and the Oak King or God of the Waxing Year (Yule to Litha). In some Traditions They are Twins (the Sun King and the Tannist) - One coming to power late as He declines (the Holly King or Tannist, His strength in darkness, waning, decay, and death) and the Other coming to power early as He grows (the Oak King or Sun King, His strength in light, waxing, fertility, and life). Alternately, They may sire each Other... thus the Holly King born at Litha and the Oak King at Yule. Irrespective of Their births, They may also sacrifice each Other... thus the Holly King beheads the Oak King at Litha and the Oak King beheads the Holly King at Yule.

Herein lies much of the confusion regaring our current expectations of correspondences upon the Great Wheel with those of the Wheel of the Year and the Wheel of the Seasons of Life. When we observe the Wheel in terms of the mythos surrounding the Lady and Lord(s), which spans both milenia and multiple cultures, we are hard pressed to sort all of the stories into a single, unified and cohesive whole. And herein also arises the dual nature of many of the Sabbats: Yule is the time of death but also of birth; Litha is the time of fruition but also the time of sacrifice... in truth, within a dual God mythos, there would be a complete life cycle represented upon the Sabbats within EACH half of the year - the Cycle of Descendency for the Holly King from Litha to Yule, and

PAniteowl:

comment?

RED DEER:

the Cycle of Ascendency for the Oak King from Yule to Litha. As we study the many (seemingly contradictory) attributes of each Sabbat, we may begin to resolve them by alternately applying views of Dyadic vs Triadic Diety. And, to realize that the contradictions are not truly such.

yes PA?

PAniteowl:

I was taught that at Yule, was the quickening the actual birth was at the Spring equinox ... bringing forth new life. Yule was the impregnation

RED DEER:

depends upon the quickening and birth to which you refer, Owl

PAniteowl:

yes, RD ...

Xori:

like planting bulbs :)

PAniteowl:

Yes, Xori

RED DEER:

the God of the Solar Year is BORN at Yule, when the sun reaches the shortest day then begins its ascension...

Cloudburst:

comment?

Xori:

I was just noting the gardener's perspective :)

RED DEER:

ancients the world over waited through the midwinter night, hoping the Sun would be reborn but the VEGETATION god IS born at the Equinox!

Does that work for you PA?

Yes Cloud?

PAniteowl:

Yes, RD ... but my teaching was that the birth of the God was the impregnation at Yule, and the bursting forth was in the Spring, when the Sun was emerging in full awareness

Cloudburst:

done, RD. Thanks - you covered.

RED DEER:

we don't have to agree, PA... one of my main assersions is that we must interpret the Wheel in the context of the Myth which we PERSONALLY experience!

PAniteowl:

Well, RD ... I think we agree, just the terminology from the old ones seems to have been interpreted a bit differently {G}

RED DEER:

well, to conclude...

These contradictions are not truly such... They are CONFIRMATION that our religion is complex and organic - complete and whole unto itself. Each separate spoke of the Wheel embodies the entire Wheel...

PAniteowl:

Aye!!!!!

RED DEER:

As above, so below; as within, so without. So mote it be...

Cloudburst:

yes!

Nestor:

SO MOTE IT BE!!

Xori:

Absolutely

RED DEER:

Before openning the floor for discussion, I'll quickly input some references:

Farrar, Janet & Stewart
1981 Eight Sabbats for Witches and Rites for Birth, Marriage
and Death.

Graves, Robert
1948 The White Goddess: a historical grammar of poetic
myth.

Glass-Koentop, Pattalee
1991 Year of Moons, Season of Trees: Mysteries & Rites of
Celtic Tree Magic.

Santillana, G. & von Dechend, H.
1969 Hamlet's Mill: an essay investigating the origins of
human knowledge

Starhawk
1979 The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the Ancient Religion
of the Goddess.

Patterson, Helena
1994 The Handbook of Celtic Astrology: The 13-Sign Lunar
Zodiac of the Ancient Druids.

Williamson, John (ed. Joseph Campbell)
1980 The Oak King, The Holly King & The Unicorn: The Myths
and Symbolism of the Unicorn Tapestries.

Wood, John Edward
1978 Sun, Moon and Standing Stones.

Zimmer, Heinrich
1948 the king & the corpse: Tales of the Soul's Conquest
of Evil.

Thank you all for your time and attention... NOW, let's talk and (dis)agree!

IrishGypsy:

Clap clap clap, great Red Deer

melilot:

good class red {G}

Morrigan:

excellent class Red Deer!

Xori:

Thank you Red Deer

Wrenifer:

Is there such a thing as a "natural witch"?

WICCA101:

LOL!!!!! Excellent Red Deer

PAniteowl:

Good Job!!!! RD {G}

Nestor:

greal biblography Red Deer --and for those wanting Red Deer's diagrams on this topic --please go print them off --they are under Wicca BB thread Wicca101 Schedules

RED DEER:

We are all natural witches, Wren... please explain your question

Morrigan:

And I've got the logs for this class. I'll try to get them edited and posted this week

calluna:

thank you

Cloudburst:

RD, I think the only reason my year "disagrees" with yours is that I live 20 degrees north of you or so{G}. Great class and your diagrams were beautiful. Thank you!

Wrenifer:

Does a certian potential, I mean... okay. Does the potential do to be able to do witchcraft carry itself in one's lineage?

RED DEER:

Thanks for the compliments, y'all... what about differing views?

Nestor:

Wrenifer --I would suggest that some people are more intune with their psychic self -- but that by itself does not make them a "witch" -- remember that Wicca is a religion first and formost, magic is 2nd

Morrigan:

let me re read what you've said, assimulate, mull and disect... then I'll let you know my disagreements etc. {g}

Wrenifer:

k

Nestor:

Red Deer - did you every work with moving the Fire to the east and Air to the sound and using the 'celitic' colors that Dorren V. uses -- red-east, white-south, gray-west, black-north?

melilot:

blood lines do not guaretee your ablity to do magic

RED DEER:

I'd like to hear Chatty... I KNOW that I view the Myth itself differently than many.

Cloudburst:

{--was discussing all the variations of "New Years" last night. Thinks it may be cultural that some societies begin the DAY at sunset (hence New Year at Samhain)

Nestor:

air to the South

Azael:

I don't believe bloodlines affects your ability.

Wrenifer:

thank you.

RED DEER:

but my points in this class were NOT to teach you the myth, but to help you ask questions of how the myth as YOU know it can be applied to the Wheel

melilot:

but if your line had a history for the healing arts you might find more ablitity in them than in other areas

Nestor:

it makes the polarity of the axis more definate

Cloudburst:

while others begin the day at midnight or dawn. Time of supposed beginning of the day pretty much equals beginning of year, but the symbolism of a new year remains much the same

Wrenifer:

i have a feeling that they weren't healing ... {grin}

Cloudburst:

just happens at different moments.

Azael:

I think your ability is determined by personal practice, discipline and study, but not by birth. I think it's only affected by birth if your raised being taugh those in those ways.

melilot:

wren the ablitlity to heal or kill is the same talent

Xori:

I agree Cloud- we have to remember the global presence

RED DEER:

Cloud - you then do exactly what I recommend - you have the year and the myth to fit your climate

Shouldn't it, in a NATURAL religion?

Cloudburst:

you betchum{G}

Wrenifer:

um... how does that work? i mean, fitting the religion to one's climate??

melilot:

if it's cold you makem dem babie if it's warm you have dem parties {G}

RED DEER:

Nestor - actually, I (alone) tend to keep North and South, but to invert East & West

Cloudburst:

The myth you see in the Year Wheel matches what's going on around you, Wren...

PAniteowl:

yes, RD ... it should {G}!

Morrigan:

It would seem rather silly to celebrate a myth that didn't fit your climate. What if you lived in Hawaii? it's summer all year around there.

Xori:

LOL meli - we not be doin babies here any mores - so it be party'n all year round :)

Wrenifer:

k... well, everything is cold and snowy 10/12 here.

melilot:

well it does have a cooler time and a hotter time chatty {G}

Xori:

oops

melilot:

pretend to makem dem babies xori {G}

Xori:

{---loggin off now - will edit if necessary :)

Morrigan:

oh. I've never been there... but I hear it's great {g}

Nestor:

I found that Dorreen atribution produce so very dramtic effect and have a very effective and powerful internal rythm to them -- you might want to experment with them

RED DEER:

Aye Cloud, the older (and more matrifocal) the culture, the more likely they'd begin day with sunset

Azael:

Wren, You just have to get to know what the seasons of the year are like where you live, and work within those seasons and climbates...

Cloudburst:

Celts and Jews both called "people of the night" by the Romans{G}

Xori:

I agree Az

Wrenifer:

we have all of two of them. 1. Cold. 2. Hot. How do you work with that?

Azael:

Trudging on a spiritual journey through 10 miles of snow, probably isn't all that practical if you live in south america.

RED DEER:

Hawaii also has rainy and dry seasons

Nestor:

Wrenifer -- you also have wet/dry

Wrenifer:

not really.

melilot:

well does it ever go from cold to warm wren

Cloudburst:

Sunset is pastoral, sunrise is agrarian, midnight is urban, IMO

melilot:

just before it gets hot like maybe one day

Wrenifer:

I have no idea. I live in Alberta. Self explained.

RED DEER:

Wren - you are where?

Cloudburst:

... so us moderns get to have ALL of them{G}

RED DEER:

LOL Azael

melilot:

well they do have "snow" in south america that could be a very fatal 10 mile journey

RED DEER:

Alberta - if you have Winter, you must have spring and fall - even though each may only be a week long and summer but a month...

CJLEO:

lol, melilot

RED DEER:

makes for a VERY interesting adaptation... but the cycle is similar, just the DATES change

Wrenifer:

so how does the wheel work in a climate of 1. 5 weeks of spring, 1. 5 weeks of fall... 2 months of summer and 10 or winter?

Cloudburst:

Wren, I have a Wiccan acquaintance in Alaska who pretty much condenses the summer "half" of the Wheel into the three months anything can grow... seems to work

Cloudburst:

just doesn't have even divisions any more

Wrenifer:

{lightbulb} got it!!

Arcadea:

MP all my Little Lovlies, gotta go check out a BB, so I guess I'll see ya's tomorrow nite!

melilot:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{evilsister}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} til tomorrow

Morrigan:

MP Arcadea

RED DEER:

BB & MP ARC

Morrigan:

I too must go all. I see the stirrings of the little one

RED DEER:

aye Cloud!

Morrigan:

time to nurse.

Cloudburst:

MP, {{{mommy}}}

Morrigan:

MP and BB all!

Nestor:

Wren -- the difference in the "natural world" for each location is one of the reason for the varriations in the Wiccan traditions -- each cutlure had their own version tied to their own climate and culture

RED DEER:

Brightest Blessings to you BOTH Chatty!

CJLEO:

Blessed Be and MP all!

Wrenifer:

ok i shall be back very soon.

Cloudburst:

{---recently read a Wiccan ritual meal from BC that's tied to the time of the salmon run. Climatic adjustments are important!

Nestor:

yes Cloud --that make a lot of sense

RED DEER:

What is a nature religion, if it is at odds with the nature one lives in???

Cloudburst:

{---figgers the whole thing is tied to the manifest, so we should celebrate what's manifesting{G}

RED DEER:

AYE may I plagiarize that statement sometime Cloud?

Cloudburst:

That's how Australian Wiccans ended up turning the calendar 180 degrees

Wrenifer:

Many imparts from the Lady

melilot:

cloud right now i am manifesting dry skin tis the season {G}

Cloudburst:

which profound statement did you want to plag?

Nestor:

well folks going to call it a night --Blessed be to All

RED DEER:

The whole thing is tied to the manifest, so we should celebrate what's manifesting.

Nestor:

and Merry Yule!!!

Wrenifer:

Faery Part, Nestor

RED DEER:

Brightest Blessings & Merry Part {{{Nestor}}}

melilot:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{granpa}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}]]]]]

RED DEER:

and a Happy Yule to You!

Cloudburst:

Go for it, RD.

calluna:

mp nestor

Cloudburst:

You can always quote me. Plagiarism is frequently a BIIIIG compliment

{{{{{Nestor}}}}} MP, bro

Wrenifer:

next dumb question from the frozen brain of wren... how exactly does one mix Mormonism and Celtic Wicca?

RED DEER:

Thanks Cloud!

Cloudburst:

{---would have to let the Mormons in the door before developing an opinion{G}

RED DEER:

You got me, Wren... how does one? (Or, is this NOT a joke?)

Wrenifer:

too late. You already did, Cloud.

Cloudburst:

Who, YOU?!

Wrenifer:

RD, I'm LDS, and a semi-pagan. I'm trying to explain this to my parents, something which is interesting, when your 16.

Cloudburst:

Fascinating, I'm sure.

Wrenifer:

{bow to Cloud}

PAniteowl:

BB again all

Wrenifer:

Faery Greet, Owl

Cloudburst:

What I usually say is, find out everything you can about Wicca and then figure out where your traditions intersect

RED DEER:

I'd think it difficult to manage, Wren... most Christians believe we are Satanists and therefore doomed... is the LDS view different?

Wrenifer:

RD- we believe that all of humankind are our brothers and sisters, and we try to love them and serve them... and as for me, I try to educate people about Wiccans every chance I get.

RED DEER:

Cool greeting, Wren...

Wrenifer:

Danke shen, RD

Cloudburst:

Wren, I think you'll find a point of compatibility in the love and service department, but you may have to adjust on animals and the Mother...

Wrenifer:

The Lady shines on you, felio. Greetings.

felio:

mm again

Cloudburst:

... love and service not just for humans

Wrenifer:

I know. We also try to care for the Earth... and we believe in a Heavenly Mother... I mean, I can see where they meet, but my mom can't.

Wrenifer:

She insists apon quoting "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" to me.

Cloudburst:

{--hadn't heard about the Heavenly Mother

felio:

can i talk to a wise one privately

PAniteowl:

ok, gonna try one more time {G}

Cloudburst:

anyone in particular, felio?

felio:

no ... i just have majik ?

Azael:

That's a rather old quote. That was pre-christianty, and supposedly Christ did away with that law.

RED DEER:

You may talk with all of us publicly, felio

RED DEER:

VERY TRUE, Azael

Wrenifer:

I know. My mommy's messed.

felio:

cool ... ok 1st question

Azael:

Well it's the 90's it's normal to be messed up

Wrenifer:

And King James changed that from "a heretic" to "a witch" cause he was witchaphobic.

felio:

how can you fortell the phases of the moon without newspaper or almanac

Azael:

If you've watched the moon enough, you can tell by looking at it. Or if you've been following the phases of the moon for a while, you can just write your own almanac.

RED DEER:

no foretelling, felio... use a calendar... lunar cycle is 28.5 days!

melilot:

felio first you look at the moon what faze is it in now

SwordMaiden:

MM Room

RED DEER:

actually, the point is to learn that the moon-tides are within your blood... you can feel them felio... write down the day you observe a full moon... another will happen about every 29 days... just count forward on the calendar

melilot:

if your female you really notice them

SwordMaiden:

hehe Meli

PAniteowl:

and if you're male, living with a female ... you'd better notice them {G}

melilot: